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Revelation Man

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  1. Revelation Man

    Mid Trib rapture anyone?

    I just did a study on the DOTL and it seems to not only be God's Wrath but his 1000 year reign also, thus when Peter speaks about the Heavens passing away in the DOTL, it now all makes perfect sense. The DOTL, also incorporates the 1000 year reign, thus after the 1000 years come the New Heaven and Earth !! 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. This only works if the Day of the Lord starts with God's Wrath and runs through Jesus Christ's 1000 year reign on earth !! Amen. This came from putting all the scriptures on the subject together, and then rationalizing what the answer must be. I am still in my study on the DOTL, but this is one conclusion I have come to, the DOTL is a much longer time period than just the 3.5 years of Wrath. It lasts until we get a New Haven and earth. Well of course the Judgments fall on the Gentiles {Babylon = the Whole World}, but it is designed to get Israel to REPENT from God's perspective, they are His bride !! The REMNANT Church will be here, those Gentiles who came to Christ after the Rapture. The Remnant Church who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God in Rev. 12:17 is the newly converted Gentile Church, it can't be the converted Jews, God PROTECTS THEM in Petra/Bozrah. The Dragon chased Israel but when he couldn't get at Israel he turned to those OTHERS..............The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ, which tells us the Church is in Heaven. Amen. The Apostasy in 2 Thess. 2 is not a DEPARTURE of the Faith but the DEPARTURE of the Church from earth. {The passage tells us it's about a Gathering together unto the Lord Jesus} It must come BEFORE the DOTL, as must the Anti-Christ likewise come before the DOTL. So you are correct, the Two-Witnesses show up BEFORE the DOTL, and Israel thus turnS back unto God. The Heavenly Wonders come IN THE PRESENCE of the DOTL, or in the FACE of the DOTL or DURING the DOTL. Covenant in Hebrew means Agreement, it's only a Holy Covenant when it is with God, this will be an Agreement between NATIONS as in the E.U., Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region. So you are correct, he DOTL will come when they all think they are in PEACE & SAFETY. The First Seal is opened in the Middle of the week, he is the Anti-Christ going forth. Man, that was a lot of work...........LOL. God Bless, my 2 cents worth.
  2. Revelation Man

    Mid Trib rapture anyone?

    The 6th Seal therefore comes just after the Midway point of the 70th Week. On a 3.5 year scale, we could say, well the 6th Seal is almost a 1/3 of the way to the end, but that is not the way the Seals, Trumpets and Vials work. The First Four Seals are God showing us what the Anti-Christ's actions is going to bring during his 42 Months reign, and Seal #5 is showing us the deaths of the Martys at his hand. Thus the 6th Seal can be opened quickly after the First Four Seals, because they are mostly pronouncements of what is coming at the hands of the Beast !! Thus the 6th Seal is basically going to happen at the 1260 Mark but just a bit later, so a few days or weeks later we get the 6th Seal. That is why I think the 6th Seal is the ANNOUNCEMENT by God that Wrath has come unto the World, it's a Sign from God, but the Wrath actually starts with the First Sal of Course, it's all the Lamb's Wrath. The Sun and Moon turns dark, but the "STARS FALLING" like "UNTIMELY FIGS" I see as Satan being cast out of Heaven. Then we Get Israel {144,000} who are Fleeing Judea and God tells his Angel in Rev. 7, HOLD UP.........Hurt not the Earth, Trees nor the Sea until I have Sealed the 144,000, then He names the 12 Tribes. So what does this really mean ? I think it means that the 144,000 are the Fleeing Jews, God tells the Angels to not hurt the earth/trees and seas until they are SEALED {Which means they make it to the Petra/Bozrah area} in their Foreheads. Then the 7th Seal is opened, which brings forth the 7 Trumpet Judgments on Mankind. The problem I had 5 years ago was I was called to Prophecy, but I felt like after 25ish years I was stuck in the mud and asked God why !! The Holy Spirit was like, Ron, I can't teach you because you heed Men's Traditions, when you got saved you read the Gospel and I taught you, now you see wha 50 men say about Babylon and each has a different opinion, but you are not listening to me, I will tell you the right answer, but only if you put off Men's Traditions can you hear My voice. So I was like, wow, this is too cool. The very first think I tackled was the Rapture, I was Pe Trib but will to hear the facts for myself now, and I started there because I saw such division with the brothers on this issue, and realized that this one issue, throws everything else out of whack if you get it wrong. So I set out just reading the bible again in the few places its spoken of, and I got to the book of Revelation and decided to read it all because it is an End Time Prophetic book, I wanted to see if God placed any clues about the Rapture in there. Then I got to the 19th chapter and my eyes were opened, the Church is in Heaven, Marries the Lamb, then RETURNS with the Lamb from Heaven to earth, all while the Beast and his Kings/minions are still on earth !! END OF STORY !! The Rapture has to happen before the Tribulation is about to end, so then I just kept chugging along to I was shown and understood that the Rapture was Pre Trib and could only be Pre Trib. OK, I said all that to say this about "MEN'S TRADITIONS" meaning the Meaning of the "Great Tribulation" as per Rev. 7:14, why does it HAVE TO MEAN the 7th Week Tribulation ? REMEMBER, let's put of preconceived ideas/ideals and let God teach you/us. Does this mean that these people came out of the 70th Week or have you just been conditioned to think that by TWO WORDS ? Great Tribulation can only mean the Greatest Troubles Ever right ? Wrong. Great has different connotations, it can mean many things. As in Greatest Troubles or GREATEST TIME PERIOD of Troubles, but we of course chose to limit what it could mean to only the Greatest Ever Troubles even though it doesn't fit for a few reasons. Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TROUBLES in this world. And thus the Great Tribulation can be and is referring to the 2000 year Church Age as the GREATEST EVER PERIOD of Tribulation, thus they came out of the Church Age Tribulation, in which Millions of Christians were murdered, all of the Disciples save John were Martyrs. John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. So why do people assume that those people in Rev. 7:9-17 have to come out of the 7oth week ? Because it's MEN'S TRADITIONS, we have been trained to think that away, when it can not be that way. The one thing the Holy Spirit has taught me lately is to never rely on single verses, we must take many verses and play them off of each other. You know the ole, "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little" scriptures. A good example of this is Dan. 7:11 where it says the Beasts will be killed and his body destroyed, and Rev. 19:20 where it says the Beast will be cast Alive into Hell. So what gives ? Because God never contradicts himself, thus I saw it, the Beasts body is indeed killed, but hes never allowed to SLEEP in his Grave until the Second Death in 1000 years like everybody else, hes cast STRAIGHT INTO HELL, and we are Eternal Beings so we live forever in essence. The Martyrs under the 5th Seal ar told specifically that they must wait until their fellow brothers ar killed in like manner as they were, thus they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is over. They are thus not the ones being spoken of in Rev. 7:9-17, they receive their White Robes signifying that Jesus is telling them they are just, but they will not be given their Glorius bodies just yet. These came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period as in 2000>7. So the MEN' TRADITIONS and no comparing scriptures, has taken us down a wrong road as per to what he "Great Tribulation" means in Rev. 7:14.
  3. Revelation Man

    Mid Trib rapture anyone?

    1.) They have not ridden but that's not really your main emphasis here it seems, you don't seem to understand when the Seals are opened in relation to the 70th week, and without knowing that you really can't understand what the Seals represent. The 70th week starts, the rapture in my opinion starts before the 70th week, the Church Age was inserted, the 70th week judgment was put off, God forsook Israel and gave the mantle of taking His Gospel unto the world unto the Gentiles, Romans chapter 11 says the Jews are blinded until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So it all jibes with the Church being taken to Heaven, she after all is the Bride of Christ and the Jewish Marriage Custom is to build a room for the bride in the fathers {Fathers} house. They abide in the wedding chambers for 7 days {7 years}. The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36). So the 70th week starts and as Daniel:27 shows us, there is a 3.5 year "Peace Agreement" {Covenant means Agreement} between the Anti-Christ, Israel and MANY [Nations] in the Region. He has to become a Beast over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region like all the other Beasts. There are 7 year Agreements in place between the E.U. and Israel and THE MANY as we speak, it's called the European Neighborhood Policy. The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the east...................... The European Neighbourhood Instrument From the ENPI to the ENI Starting from 2014, the European Neighborhood Instrument (ENI) has replaced the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument (ENPI 2006-2013). The ENI will run until 2020 providing the framework and bulk of funding for the relations between the European Union (EU) and Partner Countries under the renewed European Neighborhood Policy (ENP). {Notice the 7 year cycles}. So the MANY in Dan. 8:25 that are destroyed BY PEACE, and the MANY that this Anti-Christ makes an Agreement with in Dan. 9:27, are THE MANY Nations he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43. This includes Israel, but he's not able to Conquer what is now Jordan, that is where Israel will Flee for 1260 days. Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north {Anti-Christ} shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.{Jordan} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. So who are THE MANY that the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Agreement with ? Well it is Israel, all of North Africa, and the Nations around the Mediterranean Sea Region, which is why he is a Beast that comes out of the Mediterranean Sea, which means the Little Horn/Anti-Christ's FOOTPRINT will look exactly like the Old Roman Empire. It will be the E.U. and THE MANY that he Conquers, all of North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. So in th Middle of the week, the 70th week, the Seals are opened by Jesus, the Wrath of God is allowed to go forth on Mankind. So the Seals begin, of course, in the Middle of the week. Thus there is 3.5 years of God's Wrath to come, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. This portion needed to be very detailed, thus longer. I will answer the rest in another post.
  4. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    Well who do you think they would be ? They receive the very things promised to the Church as I detail, and in Rev. 5:9 they sing the song of Redemption, Angels don't need Redemption, and humans do, the Church is Raptured all at one time. This is by no means all I base my understanding off of, I list many various reasons, but I think the problem is too many people already have their understandings and to them that is more important than following the facts to their logical conclusions. The 6th Seal is just not an option brother. The Seal's are the Lambs Wrath, everyone of them, God starts noting in the middle. Rev. 7:9-17 are the Church shown in Heaven after the Seals are opened, during the Tribulation on earth. They are in Heaven for the full 7 years however. The 70th week is a week, not 3.5 years, the Seals are opened in the Middle of the Week, thus it represents the Anti-Christ going forth in the Middle of the Week. I have many, many reasons why the Rapture starts before the 70th week, but I have never heard someone claim the 70th week starts with the 6th Seal, the Anti-Christ comes forth in the MIDDLE of the Week, thus there is but 1260 days left when the First Seal is opened, so how can there be 7 years left when there is only 3.5 years left ? Other reasons for understanding the Rapture is Pre-tribulation BELOW: The Rapture What is it ? Who will it affect ? When is it most likely to take place ? The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven. The Term The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.” So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions. A Promise to the Church The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints. The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.” Biblical References The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.” Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52). Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6). A Summary To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.” And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal. All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability! The Timing The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point. Post-Tribulation Rapture Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech. Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance. It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31). The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period. The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event. Mid-Tribulation Rapture There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed. This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation. But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11. Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.” The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture. Pre-Wrath Rapture A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation. The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan. This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16). All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment. Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first. For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear. Focus This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3). Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple. Wrath Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation. The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Deliverance Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8). But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10). Symbolism There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation. Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed. The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9). Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’ time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated. Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation. Revelation Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense. The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14). The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world. Paul’s Assurance An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7). There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7). Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7). In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose. Escapism ? The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning? Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare. If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18). If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16). I can go on and on and on brother. I can tell you the perfect order of the Book of Revelation, the Rapture is much easier to discern than the BoR brother.
  5. Revelation Man

    The daily sacrifice

    The daily sacrifice mentioned in Dan. 11:31 was about Antiochus, he had the High Priest Onias III killed and replaced him with a Jew named Jason who bribed Antiochus, who killed Jason's brother, Onias III, this he became a TYPE of the False Prophet just like Antiochus was a TYPE of Anti-Christ. The Maccabean Revolt ensued and they are the ones that saved the day, not the Pharisees. During the End Times we will get an exact replica of this even, the False Prophet being a "Beast" means he will BEAST over Religion whilst the Anti-Christ BEASTS over the Governments, just like Jason who tried to Hellenize the Jews and Antiochus who ruled the Governments of Judea. The Religious order of the day is pretty clear, all men will be made to Worship the Beast as God or die. We have the EXACT LIKENESS of this duo in Antiochus and Jason {High Priest}. Jason bribed Antiochus to gain the office of High Priest, thereby Antiochus had Jason's High Priest brother Onias III killed and appointed Jason, whose real name was Yeshua {you can't make this up}. Jason then tried to Hellenize the Jews and the Maccabean Revolt was the result. Daniel never mentioned Jason nor the coming False Prophet, and I was wondering why he was not given this future event, but John was given the False Prophet, that was strange to me, then it came to me, if Daniel had of been given a Prophecy about a coming False Prophet High Priest, then every other High Priest down through the years might have died at the hands of the Jews who were looking for a treasonous High Priest to come, if you catch my drift, so IMHO, this is why Daniel was never given the Prophecy of the coming High Priest who is going to be a traitor. Of course the Jews did not believe John was of God anyway, because he ran with Jesus. So I think the reason we get the whole Daniel 11 Syrian Wars in such detail, is so we can see that Antiochus is a TYPE of Anti-Christ, and in the book of the Maccabeans we can read about Jason, or we can read about him in the History books like I did. I think Jason and Antiochus are the exact TYPES of the coming Anti-Christ and False Prophet. Ones a Gentile Ruler/King, the Other is going to be a Jewish High Priest/False Prophet.
  6. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    In YOUR OPINION.............Likewise I think the Post trib is incorrect, but I am not going to call you a False Teacher. If he thinks that way he might be right, to me it's pointless. I think it's a tactic, you brought it up not to answer the points he made. I agree with no one on everything, nor do you I suppose, so I think you just tried to dodge the points he made because you can't answer them brother. Just being honest. What you mean is most of the time you have no rebut, I get it. God Bless. P.S. No rebut means my point has to be considered valid.
  7. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    I can knock down every verse that points to anything but pre trib. TRY ME !!
  8. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    I notice you never want to answer the pointed questions, you just try to attack a "SUB-SET" someone has that may or may not be right. Your Tribulation belief is wrong in my eyes, but I am not going to go around attacking you for that belief brother, just challenging your views point by point in a retort of sorts. Sometimes I get the same treatment, like Babel man, what is it about you post tribbers that make you not want to discuss the facts point by point, I am not claiming per se you attack like that, but you do often try to avoid the pertinent questions/issues and go elsewhere. I don't care that Dr. Reagan believes that, it doesn't matter one way or another, and he may have valid points, I haven't studied it. There are a few things in that text I posted that I don't agree with myself, like the bringing back of Spirits and gaining a Glorious body on the way to Heaven. Like the Rev. 7 Saints as coming out of the Tribulation, I say they came out of the Church Age Tribulation. Differences on a few things doesn't make us enemies at all. So he believes things I don't as well as you. It is what it is, he's still my brother as you are. Calling out specific beliefs like that to deflect from what I posted adds nothing brother, you only dodged the facts presented before you. Then you talk about others specific positions, then you linked to something else, but in the end you dodged every fact posted, COME ON MAN !! So in the end you just ranted and answered nary the point that was made !!
  9. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    Well you broke this down wrong brother, I don't just say things without knowing the facts thereof. The Bible INTERPRETS ITSELF in most cases. Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself {CHURCH} ready. 8 And to her {CHURCH} was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {CHURCH} We are told who the Church is in verse 8, then we are told who the Armies are in verse 14, they are Clothed in Fine Linen, Clean and White = The Church !! We go to the Marriage Supper with Jesus, which is Armageddon !! {Matt. 24:28, the eagles will be where the Carcass is at} We see the FOWLS of Rev. 19 devours the flesh of men at Armageddon !! Metaphorically speaking, thus this is the Marriage Super. You just don't see what you don't want to see it seems brother, that is called tunnel vision. Rev. 19 clearly says the Marriage of the Lamb HAS COME !! We also see the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4 who have the EXACT THINGS PROMISED to the 7 Churches... Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. The Rewards promised to the Seven Churches are given unto the 24 Elders in Rev. 4:4. * A Crown - ( Rev. 2:10, 3:11, 4:4 and 4:10 ) * A Throne - ( Rev. 3:21 and 4:4 ) * A White Robe - ( Rev. 3:4-5 and Rev. 4:4 ) As per the 24 Elders meaning ? or why 24 Elders !! Well this fits 1 Chronicles 24:7-19 where we are told there are 24 orders of priests. So the Church is in Heaven before the Seals are opened, thus the Rapture happens before the Seals are opened !! John saw them in Rev. chapters 4 and 5, the Elders are not in Heaven having married the Lamb without the Church also being there, there is just ONE MARRIAGE !!  The Churches are the Church age, the Tribulation is after the Church Age. Those sealed in the foreheads are the 144,000 Jews which are really just ALL THE JEWS who repented {1/3 or 2 to 3 million Jews maybe even 5 million Jews if they all move to Israel} as Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us. 2/3 do not repent and thus they will perish. The Saints are the Jews whom God protects in Petra/Bozrah and the Gentiles who repent AFTER the Rapture better known as the Remnant Church {Rev. 12:17}. The Remnant Gentiles are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal. You better not breakdown the other part of the post brother, there are no weaknesses in my Eschatology. I follow the Holy Spirit in all things. God Bless.
  10. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    For starters, if you allowed ONE VERSE to change your opinion on anything, that is not how God does things, He delivers His message via MANY VERSES, thus that is what "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little means". Any verse that the Post tribbers can put forth I can knock it down as per to why it doesn't really mean what they think. Satan comes as an Angel of light, have you ever heard that passage brother ? He never stops, so don't think Satan isn't trying to decieve. So they question is who is he deceiving ? NOT IF !! The Rapture What is it ? Who will it affect ? When is it most likely to take place ? By Dr. David R. Reagan The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven. The Term The term “Rapture” comes from a Latin word, “rapio,” that means “to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out.” It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, “harpazo.” So, “Rapture” is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions. A Promise to the Church The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints. The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.” Biblical References The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.” Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet” (verses 51-52). Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6). A Summary To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be “caught up” to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to “comfort one another with these words.” And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal. All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability! The Timing The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point. Post-Tribulation Rapture Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech. Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance. It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31). The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period. The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event. Mid-Tribulation Rapture There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed. This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation. But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11. Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation. Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.” The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture. Pre-Wrath Rapture A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation. The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan. This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16). All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment. Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first. For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear. Focus This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3). Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple. Wrath Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation. The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Deliverance Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8). But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10). Symbolism There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation. Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed. The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9). Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’ time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated. Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation. Revelation Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense. The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14). The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world. Paul’s Assurance An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7). There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7). Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7). In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose. Escapism ? The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning? Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare. If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18). If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).
  11. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    I don't care what the word has come to mean since the KJV translators made their error in the translation, WORDS always change. 75 years ago Gay meant happy, today most people see Gay as meaning a Homosexual {I still use the word homosexual}. So if we are speaking in reference to 75 years ago, one can't insist, HEY MAN, that means a Gay man !! dogmatically, it means a HAPPY PERSON when that reference was given 75 years ago. So the Dictionaries references MEAN NOTHING !! The Hebrew was used in the Old Testament, not Greek. But the word can mean a LEAVING of the Faith, but it can also mean a LEAVING from an actual place or a standing {as on earth to Heaven}. Just as I show in the other post, the DEFINITE ARTICLE points to a definite TYPE of Leaving, and that was shown in verse 1, a GATHERING UNTO Christ. Nowhere in the passage is FAITH even spoken of. All you have to do is read the post, it is self evident what is being spoken of, and many instances of MEN DEPARTING are shown in the New Testament using this word. The problem with having an entrenched position on something is God can't teach us when we are locked in to our own beliefs. The Church and Israel being ONE is the biggest problem with many, they don't get that Israel we repent after the Rapture.
  12. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    Simple mah to who ? You seem to forget, the Church being caught up does not stop God's Mercy, Israel repent during the 70th week, as does the REMNANT CHURCH, that is why its called the Remnant Church in Rev. 12:17. Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: The Seals are being opened and they are DESCRIBED as the Wrath of the Lamb. The Trumpets and the Vials come out of the 7th Seal. Jesus is God, Rev. 15 however has nothing to do with what I stated. The Seals are the Lambs Wrath. If I tell you a rooster dips snuff look under his wing and you'll find the can pardner. Since you couldn't find the Lamb's Wrath might I assume you are also missing the pre trib clues also ? Nothing about Revelation or Daniel surprises me, if I say it then I understand it or I wouldn't say it. As per the TRICKERY, I understand that........it's just you guys not understanding the Rapture and Second Coming are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS. Now when I say the Rapture happens pre 70th week and the 2nd coming happens at the end of the 70th week....thus the Rapture can't happen until the Rapture is only you guys not understanding our position, or either pretending not to understand it, it's so simple I don't get how it could be missed. Rapture/70 week begins........................................God's Wrath/Tribulation starts in the Middle/3.5..................................................Second Coming. The Rapture doesn't happen at the Second Coming !! So ya'll can bookshelf that saying about the Rapture can't come until the Rapture. Ig you ever use it again, you know what you are saying is in error.
  13. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    The Rapture happens pre 70th Week. Israel repents during the 70th week as do Gentiles who missed the Rapture {5 Virgins}. Evidently all men can repent but don't, even as the 2nd Woe is being brought forth. The last verse in chapter 9 via the 2nd Woe says this...........Rev. 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Which means they can repent, but chose not to it would seem. The Seals are called the Lambs Wrath. God's Wrath starts with the First Seal. Jesus comes back for the Bride BEFORE the 70th Week starts. I have studied the Greek and have a blog on the very subject. The Rapture happens BEFORE the 70th week, so the little parlor trick doesn't work, which I don't think is a trick anymore, I think you guys are really just confused about the Rapture. So the Rapture happens BEFORE the Second Coming, you are the one that is confusing the two, else you wouldn't that saying the the Rapture won't happen until the Rapture. No the Rapture happens FIRST, then the Anti-Christ shows up, THEN the Wrath of God THEN the Second Coming !! Is the Falling Away a false teaching ? I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3. “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage. Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.” The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13). This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows: 1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384) 2.The Tyndale Bible (1526) 3. The Coverdale Bible (1535) 4. The Cranmer Bible (1539) 5. The Great Bible (1540) 6. The Beeches Bible (1576) 7. The Geneva Bible (1608) Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism. One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary: Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church. In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.” And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power. (First Seal after the Fake Peace) I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that had been around for 1100 years in 1611.
  14. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    The point is Matthew is telling us what Jesus said, he's not ADDING ANYTHING, and Mark is telling what he remembers, both were written years later, but Matthew is telling us that the ELECT will be gathered from Heaven in this instance. It is what it is.
  15. Revelation Man

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    For starters, you don't seem to get what they were FEARING was upon them. The Wrath of God or the Day of the Lord. And Paul is basically telling them, don't be silly, I told you before when I was with you that both the Departure of the Church and the Man of Sin must come BEFORE the Wrath of God comes, even if it were he Falling away and the Man of Sin {which it isn't}, that would still only mean both come BEFORE the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath can fall upon them. But of course it's all about the DEPARTURE of the Church, thus the mention in the 1st verse about the Gathering unto Christ. I beseech you as per the gathering together unto Christ, that you fear not because that day will not come until the Church Departs and the Man of Sin comes. {THEN and only then will God's Wrath fall on Mankind}. Peoples eschatology just boggles my mind. And you are never going to be right about the Rapture my friend.
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