Marcus O'Reillius

Nope. And the King of the North is victorious over the South and the East at Armageddon, gaining the whole world, only to lose his soul after Jesus defeats him there and captures him alive.

Rev 17:12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. This precedes the midpoint abomination. The beast which comes out of the abyss, who was and is not, and is about to come (at the time the Angel explains this to John) - is active for the whole time of the Church Age in my opinion, and is not relegated to the latter portion of the second half of the one 'seven' when the First Woe opens the bottomless pit - because - he predates that opening by being fully in existence vis-a-vis Revelation 13:1/2.

That's a this means that interpretation without direct Scriptural support. The dragon beast portrayed in Revelation 17 while said to come out of the abyss, is also an active player on the world's stage having a very physical locale in Rome.

It is not in Paul's rendition. That is why it is so important to sequence the various parallel and multiple accounts of the end-times around specific and unique events properly and not go on any single verse or account. So HERE is where it is in Scripture. What I wrote IS SUPPORTED by Scripture. Rev 13:5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty- two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. And Paul says: 2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. They are the same person. I CAN put the two together because they both concern the same time and the same person.

You were the one who said: "the Son of Perdition. Who meets his end during the epiphaneia of the Parousia, as 2 Thes. 2:8 tells us" And I as showed through Geoffrey Bromiley's excellent source for what the underlying Greek means - that is not so: the anti-Christ does not meet his end immediately when Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord. That is not what Paul is saying. That is what you're saying Paul says. When we look in depth to what Paul is saying, Paul is saying that he will meet his end, and that is assured as soon as Jesus comes. The anti-Christ's time is not as short as Judas' time to whom you liken him. His end goes all the way to the end of the one 'seven'. From what sequences Scripture lays out in the Seal/Scroll chronology, and as portrayed again in the detailed parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation 13-16 - the end of the anti-Christ does not come immediately when Jesus first comes on the clouds and gathers us up. - And that is the whole point of Paul's short sequence of events he tell the Thessalonians starting in 2:1.

This is a thorny issue. Allow me to offer an alternate view: The "heads" are the titular heads of a long-lived spiritual entity: Rome. At the time of the end-times, five have "fallen" - they are long passed, having died. Hitler was one I'd guess. One is - that is presently exists at the time of the end: i.e., the anti-Christ - the central villain in the story of the one 'seven'. One will be - the future leader Satan raises up after the Millennium rule has ended. This uprising is short-lived, and results in complete, technically 100% as we would label it, destruction: no Remnant / no survivors. The ten horns, are the ten "kings" who do not have respective kingdoms first, but only become kings with the formation of the fourth terrible beast. In an alternate view, they would named as "ministers" who rule the council who coordinates and controls the various body parts and limbs of the fourth terrible beast: the other three beasts who make it up. It is from this circle of ruling ministers that the little horn, the anti-Christ arises, hamstringing (the actual meaning of 'uproot') three of them, and having sway over them. The beast itself is an eighth king because it is also a spiritual entity who "rules". In Revelation 16:13, as the dragon of a nation, - not dragon Satan - it is possessed. Satan is not this dragon, although he certainly is portrayed as a dragon in Revelation 12:7. Satan as the consummate demon, needs no demonic possession to guide him. He directs demonic possession in others to do his bidding. So the "beast" itself is more than just representative of a generational government of man over the centuries - it has a life of its own, so to speak. - Now you say the beast is still in the abyss. I disagree. The beast of a nation, this dragon-beast-nation, is not only present, he has been around for a long time. In 2Pe 3:19, Peter writes a revelation Jesus gave to him of His time in the grave: He went from Paradise, where He said to the thief on His Right they would go that day, to a deeper, and probably darker place: the place where spirits from the time of Noah were imprisoned. This may be in the chasm Jesus described in the only description of where it is that we go when we die in the Bible in Luke 16; which separates Paradise from Hades. At any rate, those spirits are imprisoned, and Jesus has the key. He alone can leave Paradise and He is mobile even in death while we are not. He makes an announcement to those evil spirits. And with the fifth Trumpet, the demonic is let loose. I put it to you, that they are the same ones who have been imprisoned for so long. The demonic spirits let loose with the First Woe are not the same as the dragon-beast-nation we're dealing with when the fourth terrible beast is realized as a literal reality on this earth. And in my opinion, we are citizens of one of the first nation-beasts to make up that fourth terrible beast - the winged lion whose wings are plucked, and he is set up like a man and a heart of man is given to him. We are, in my opinion, already squarely in the belly of the beast - or better yet - his mouth piece because that is the part of the fourth terrible beast the first beast of Daniel 7 is in Revelation 13:2.

I would say that the sun/moon/star event happens on one day, and the Rapture happens on the very next day, when a "day" begins in Hebrew fashion at sunset." Here, you make one of a couple of common mistakes many make in reading what Paul wrote. 2Th 2:8b …whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. This one half verse by itself could lead a reader to conclude that the Day of the Lord coincides with the final destruction of the man of lawlessness. Indeed, without the other multiple accounts of God’s Wrath in the end-times, concluding that a single stroke by the sword emanating from Jesus’ mouth as figuratively represented in Revelation 19:15 finishes the conflagration enveloping the world would be reasonable. The conventional Post-Tribulation eschatology uses this verse myopically precluding other conditional facts and linear sequences and has the Day of the Lord be either the Day to end all, or lengthens the Day of the Lord to encompass Wrath which is not explicitly connected to it. Looking at this verse solely leads to battling verses and without keeping the big picture in view, typifies the history of prophetic interpretation without a sequence-of-events paradigm. Looking at the verbs can shed some light at how a sequence-of-events perspective can view this verse in light of other prophetic timelines. The verb overthrow comes from anaireō and it means in the nominal sense: “take up,” “take away,” “make an end” (ECB p1631). Furthermore, the word is a conjunction of aná and hairéō. hairéō means “to take,” “to win,” “to comprehend,” or “to select” (TDNT p27). The first part: aná lends either an emphatic meaning or the sense of “up.” Figuratively, it means to take away violently and so to put to death, kill, slay, or murder. The use of anaireō here by Paul is in the future tense, indicative mood, and active voice. Jesus will do this stated as a fact. The verb destroy comes from katargeō and in the nominal sense it means: “to render inoperative,” “to abolish” (ECB p1659). Bromiley says, “The provisional disarming of demonic powers will issue in their complete destruction at the return of Christ” for its use in 2Th 2:8. The man of lawless had been granted authority for forty two months. That authority culminated at the midpoint abomination. Immediately afterward, “Who is like God” arises and the Two Witnesses arrive. By their very nature being unable to be harmed, they upset the previously uncontested rule of the beast of a man. The first thing that can be suggested by anaireō is that previous authority is violently taken away, especially when the Two Witnesses can consume any person who comes up against them. The verb anaireō cannot be used in its normal figurative sense of being put to death, slain, killed, or murdered because the anti-Christ is not killed on the earth. Whether the first instance of Christ's coming on the Day of the Lord in a Pre-Wrath eschatology or at the last day of the one ‘seven’ at Armageddon even in a classical Post-Trib eschatology; Jesus does not kill the anti-Christ on earth. This fact of interpretation stands upon Revelation 19:20 where the beast of a man is captured alive, and thrown while still alive into the Lake of Fire along with the false To use anaireō in its nominal sense, Jesus would ‘make an end’ of the anti-Christ which suggests a process. Overthrowing him from his previous authority, removing his “power,” would be first part of the process which would come with the Two Witnesses who defy the anti-Christ; he is powerless over them. As the end-times proceed under a Pre-Wrath eschatological framework, making an end is a process whereby God’s Wrath reduces the anti-Christ’s world to a shadow of its former self. Final victory is Pyrrhic; he conquers the Kings of the South and East only to find himself facing the Lord of Hosts which ends with his capture. Finally then, the anti-Christ is destroyed utterly, and there are many ways to do that. and as some might argue: in stages as well. He is utterly destroyed on the earth when defeated, and then again for all eternity, in Hell. He is judged just as is determined in Revelation 11:18, “The time has come for…destroying those who destroy the earth.” He is judged before God and thrown into the Lake of Fire. 2nd Thessalonians 2:8 describes a sequence-of-events: The man of lawlessness is revealed. Jesus will make an end of him. He is utterly destroyed. Taken by itself, 2Th 2:8 could be read as happening very quickly. However, with additional revelation of God’s Wrath, which Paul does not address other than to assure the Church it does not face it, the Bible expressly states that it takes time; in the case of the first Woe, it takes five months alone. Other desolations which God has decreed may take longer as will be suggested later so that the entire remaining period of the second half of the one ‘seven’ will go until the end is poured out upon the desolator.

The Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 Dan 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. 8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 9 “As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. 10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. 11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Now, I'll sum the events described, which will leave out a lot of description, but this is just to get the big picture. This chapter is written in three parts: the vision, the inquiry and the answer. In this fashion, the original vision is gone over three times. Each time reinforces the sequence of events and adds additional information. Here is a synopsis of the vision: v.7 Rise of the fourth Beast of a Nation v.8 Rise of the little horn (anti-Christ) v.9 Court seated; books opened (among them the Scroll) v.11 Beast of a Nation destroyed; Beast of a Man thrown into Hell v.12 First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods) (they are contemporary to the fourth and make it up: Rev 13:2) v.13 Son of Man arriving in Heaven v.14 Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Next is the inquiry by Daniel: Dan 7:15 “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this. “So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. v.17 End-time transition from the rule of man v.18 -to the Rule of Christ. v.20 Ten horns (Kings), three usurped by one little horn v.21 Little horn waging war on the Saints v.22a God pronounces Judgment in favor of the Saints v.22b Saints possess the Kingdom Again, this does not conflict with the vision. It is laid out in a linear order after an introductory summation. Then the 'one of those standing there' gives this full explanation in answer: Dan 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. 26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ 28 “This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself.” v.23 Rise of fourth Beast of a Nation. It will (future tense) devour the whole world. (The King of the North is triumphant over the South and East at Armageddon) v.24 Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings." (Notice the ten Kings come from this Kingdom, they don't have their own Kingdoms.) v.25 Oppress the Saints for half of the one 'seven.' (Notice that we are also "handed over." This is exactly what Jesus said would happen in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 13:7.) v.26a Court (of God) will seat v.26b Little horn's power destroyed v.27 Set up of Millennium Kingdom ruled by the Saints From these three parallel arrays, we can construct a single timeline: Rise of fourth Beast of a Nation with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation He wages war and oppress the Saints for half of the one 'seven' Court of God is seated; books opened (Rev 4-8:1) Little horn's power destroyed Beast of a Nation destroyed Beast of a Man thrown into Hell First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods from Dan 12) Son of Man returns to Heaven Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth The first thing we can see alike is the rise of the fourth beast of a nation and then the rise of the beast of a man. Then we can see that the Saints are oppressed, waged war upon. These match the emerging overall sequence of events for the first half. The additional information supplied through Daniel has to do with the political maneuvering that the anti-Christ uses to come to power. In the unabridged book I detail how the word “uproot” is not agricultural in usage, but can also mean to “hamstring.” The Books could determine who is to be gathered up or alternately represent the Scroll from the Seal/Scroll chronology. Telling which is not possible, only that it precedes the Wrath of God. An assumption here will be to link it to the very important opening of the Scroll which only Jesus is able to do, and it brings God’s desolations to the little horn and sees to his destruction. This is an assumption and could very well be in error; without further information, no firm determination is possible. Now that we have the combined array of Daniel 7, how does this compare with the list which has already been compiled? The little horn’s power is destroyed through the Trumpet Judgments. The beast of a nation is destroyed at Armageddon. The component three nations are allowed to continue for a while. This verse means that the beasts of Daniel 7 cannot be identical to the parts of the statue in Daniel 2, whose previous portions are in the ash heap of history; all four end-time beasts are contemporary to each other. In Revelation 13:2, the first three are shown to make up the body of the fourth terrible beast which is the “head.” When the head is lost, the body parts are no longer united, but live for a while. In Daniel 12 we learn there are 1290 days and 1335 days until safety – in the Millennium. This equates to a 30-day and a 45-day period sandwiched between the one ‘seven’ and the Millennium. This is largely for the Remnant to come to Mount Zion, and the accompanying encampment on God’s Mountain which marries with the Sukkot from the Jewish Festivals – which are its own study for a pattern for the end-times. The Millennium isn’t mentioned per se, but the rule of God through the Kingdom already prophesized in Daniel 2, becomes the norm and the Saints reign: quite in opposition to their previous subjugation. Can we then combine Daniel 7 to the overall sequence of events? Absolutely! There is no discrepancy between the two. The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings (Council of Ministers) Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation Worship of the beast (rebellion against God) Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' Armies surround Jerusalem. Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down upon the earth Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss Seventh Bowl – end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Two Witnesses arise. Earth changing earthquake Beast of a Man thrown into Hell First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods) Christ returns to Heaven Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ Saints rule the earth If you look carefully, you will see that I have not disturbed the individual order of any account. What happens as other major accounts are added in is that missing details fill the gaps. At no time does the overall sequence violate any individual prophecy. What is exciting though is that they all agree with one another.

Do you know that a nuclear explosion will do what Zechariah says as well? HOW Jesus kills with the sword from His Mouth - which is poetic, figurative speech - is not literally said. It could be very well that He just speaks, and they die. He is God too in the Trinity. Remember when He said "I AM" when the Romans came for Him that night and He literally bowled over a company of battle-hardened Roman soldiers? John 18:6 Considering under the circumstances where He was so stressed that He sweated blood, (Lk 22:44, an actual physical condition that can happen in extremes) - that He let slip just a little of His Power just in mentioning His Name: I AM? What would happen if He fully let loose? I'm here to tell you, our God is a mighty God. Now also, Revelation 19:21 is the final battle of the one 'seven'. On that final day, the battle is fought in the hill country of Ephraim, by the hill Meggido, or har-meggido, which is where we get Armageddon. On the Day of the Lord, two battle are fought as foretold in Joel 2. One is around Jerusalem, and the other is in the valley of decision, which goes back to the Valley of Jehoshophat, which scholars place around Bethlehem, just to the south. There are different battles, and they are fought in different places, and at different times. So I do not think that Jesus is not above fighting with the armies of the anti-Christ; He is also the Commander of God's Army, and He does not lead from the rear...

Well, on one hand this kind of hurts because it is not "I" who "has" the Lord coming before the Trumpets, but the Word. 1.) Look at the broad overview given us in the Seal/Scroll chronology: Rev 6:12-13 - Sun/moon/star sign Rev 6:14 - Scrolling of the sky Rev 7:4-8 - “Mustering” the 144,000 Rev 7:9-17 - Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Rev 8:1 - Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal Rev 8:7 - First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned Rev 8:8 - Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood Rev 8:10 - Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter Rev 8:12 - Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck Rev 9:1-11 - Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed Rev 10:1-4/Rev 11:15 - Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) Rev 11:19 - Earthquake This is a listing of the sequence of events the Lord gives us in His Word. I even put chapter/verse references with it. This is the order GOD gives us. Now - if the Great Multitude is the same as the Elect of Mt 24:31, who are taken out of the earth after the Great Tribulation - then indeed the Day of the Lord (with its signature sun/moon/star sign) comes before the trumpets of God's Wrath falls upon those left behind. 2.) Look at the detailed, parallel account of the Harvest in Revelation chapters 13-16: In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:” The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” Worship of the beast (rebellion against God) Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest from the clouds Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake In chapter 14, we go 1-2 from the Harvest to God's Wrath! Harvest: 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. Wrath: 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. You know, early on, I argued that the two Angels were part of the Harvest, but I was corrected on a message board (sharpened) and I saw the other guy was right. Notice too, that the two Angels in verses 17-20 -- do exactly what the First Trumpet of God's Wrath does! Rev 8:7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, We get so caught up in the burning a third that we miss that the First Trumpet involves both fire and blood. Well - here, in one of the few instances I can think of, God reveals how this comes about. Like with the WWIII that will kill a third of the wicked, Angels are there to help make it happen. They may be unseen, but there is a definite spiritual influence from God whose Hand shapes events in our world. This should not sound so strange to us. So "I" do not "have" the Lord coming before the Trumpets. Scripture sequences His Return before God's Wrath falls. And Paul stated that right in 1Th 5:9.

True, but this fact is not needed for saying the Rapture happens before God's Wrath. You, however, have a different point in mind, and I see where you're forming your opinion. Agreed. Agreed. As the sun/moon/star event, which precedes the Day of the Lord (Mt 24:29), comes "immediately after the distress of those days..." I would say the Great Tribulation ends WHEN the Elect are taken up. As the sixth Seal comes before the Trumpets In order to say that, you'd have to define the "Beast Kingdom" as being coincidental with the demonic infestation which comes with the opening of the abyss. I reject this new definition of yours. What we have is the King of the "North". He is king of a kingdom. Other "Kingdoms" listed in end-time prophecy include the "South" and the "East." Jesus does not convey a "Beast Kingdom" to John as a thing. Now in Revelation 13, we see the formation of the fourth terrible beast which is the conglomeration of three nations. This is the Kingdom of the North. The beast of a man takes control of this fourth terrible beast. IF you want to say 'beast kingdom" - THEN this is it. In Revelation 13, we have the following information: 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty- two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 1.) The anti-Christ is given authority by God for the first half of the one 'seven.' 2.) During that time, God also gives him authority to make war against US and to overcome US. 3.) Finally, right at the end, the anti-Christ will win the world, having conquered the South and East - only to realize a Pyrrhic victory when Jesus captures him and the false prophet alive at Armageddon. In addition, the midpoint abomination - the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 - sets up the very Great Tribulation Jesus warned us about in the Olivet Discourse! This is buttressed by the second of the two twin parallel accounts found in Revelation chapter 12: 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. This is at the beginning of the second half. THAT"S US - and the rage he expends upon us is the Great Tribulation. So we ARE in the kingdom of the beast, and you're living in it right now. - and pass me a joint bro, I'll just get Colorado high and never mind... that's just one small part of the nature of the "falling away" which leads to wholesale worship of the beast of a man.

Paul is not referencing what John wrote in Revelation. At the time Paul wrote about the Last Trumpet, John had not yet written his revelation from Jesus.

Oh no, the Elect WILL endure the Daniel Test. Only the Church of Philadelphia, one of two "good" churches, is watched over (tereo ek) during that period and - rather than be an iron-clad provision to prevent it from enduring that test, the promise with God's watchfulness is that the church of Philadelphia will not be lost eternally - they will not fail the test and worship the abominable talking idol. The Church is subject to the two laws that the false prophet hands down with the erection of the talking image. We are told by example of what will happen to those who comply with those laws - NOT to follow either law - which puts our immediate, and physical lives at stake and apt to be lost in the normal sense. BUT ONLY BY LOSING OUR LIFE FOR HIS SAKE, DO WE INHERIT LIFE FOREVER. The oppression during the first half, which the Church will experience in Revelation 13:7 will be outdone by the Great Tribulation which follows - AND - NEITHER of these are the Wrath of God - We are subject to be handed over for oppression and persecution! We are hated and persecuted not because of who we are, but because the wicked hate Jesus first and foremost. (The Church does not have to face God's Wrath because of our faith in Christ Jesus justifies us before the Father as 'not guilty'.) The Church WILL HAVE TO PATIENTLY ENDURE the Great Tribulation. That is said over and over. Rev 13:10 This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people. (NIV) Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. (NIV) These are in direct application to the very time I am referring - the first half of the one 'seven' and the Great Tribulation. Remember: Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (NASB)

And Paul, as a trained Pharisee, was also intimately familiar with the Temple practices revolving around the "Festivals" - or to put it in their vernacular - "appointed times" (with God). As one Jewish author writing on the Festivals said: 'If you have an appointment with God, it is suggested you keep it!' Paul then also invokes the analogy of the Fall Festivals to Jesus' Second Advent. In this manner, Rosh ha-Shannah, the "Returning Anew" - is the "unknown" Day because it comes with the sighting of the new moon. All other Festivals can be know beforehand. It precedes the Days of Awe, and Yom Kippur - the reconciliation with God. As Paul says in Col 2:16, the Festivals are a template for what is to come. As Jesus fulfilled the Spring Festivals literally, so too with the latter rain, He will fulfill the Fall Festivals in a literal manner.

You ignored my final statement. As the Great Tribulation is the most terrible time ever of unjust persecution, it does not follow that it come lightly. 1. There will be a "Daniel Test" - worship or die. -- a.)This means that normal movement may be highly limited as checkpoints or other government interaction could take place at transportational nodal points like airports, train stations, bus stations, and highways. Going downtown may have severe consequences, especially if the populace, which is most wicked, is also on guard to inquire whether or not you're with them. -- b.) With the advent of computers, the likeness of the talking image could be presented anywhere there is cell phone coverage and via computers again, could "live stream" your face-to-face encounter. 2. No buying or selling. -- a.) You wont' be able to go to work to sell your labor. Biometrics will demand some sort of ID. As I am in the business of moving about secure areas, already we have an elaborate setup to constrict access. You can expect that to continue and to propagate to other work environments. -- b.) As with the above example 1.A.) you won't be allowed to use, planes, trains, and public transportation. Nor will you be able to use your car so long as you need to buy gas. Never mind that Worship Compliance Checkpoints could be set up that would catch you trying to be independent. If you're not riding on horseback, cart, bicycle, or foot-powered scooter, which we rarely do outside of Amish country,; you're on foot - and that could be the very thing they're looking for in order to arrest you and put you to the "Daniel Test". -- c.) Water, food, clothing, and shelter: how will you provide that? Three days without electricity and being isolated because of natural disaster is enough to put most communities on a strict survival basis. By that time, the stores are empty, and looting is a problem. How will you provide water when your well is run by electricity and you can't pay the bill because you're not "chipped"? How are you going to get food? If you aren't growing it, you don't have it. You'd have store it; better check those prepper sites. Now you tell me how you as a modern man is going to move around the front range of Colorado with its limited roads. You might be able to camp out, but you're going to have to sustain yourself and any you love - and still even out west, you're going to make an IR signature which will not be lost on the authorities who will very well be looking for just such activity. I am already instituting a plan of action which will prepare my wife to "bed down" and hide in plain sight. I, as a man, will probably not "make it." Men are desirable targets because we are a threat as combatants. Women, well, not so much a threat as a reward for the victor, if you get my drift... If you read Isaiah 4, you will find that more women survive the one 'seven' than men. Even then, they're in pretty rough shape... - the one 'seven' will eliminate enough people that even including us from an initial count, that less than 1% of the present world population survive it. (1/3 of 15 million Jews + 10:1 Gentiles as per Zechariah = 55 million versus 7+ billion today.)

Totally missed it; but the answer is yes. First of all, I do not have the Lord coming on the clouds before the Trumpets. 1.) The Great Multitude show up in Heaven before the Scroll is unsealed so as to allow the "desolations decreed" (Dan 9:26) within (and without - it's written on both sides which is unnatural) to go forward with the Trumpet judgments in the broad overview of the end-times (which may have started in the mid-1800's with the first Seal) of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive), and 2.) In the detailed parallel account of only the one 'seven' with the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) - the avenging Angel who stokes the winepress of God's Wrath comes immediately after the Harvest. In addition - he supplies the second element of the Day of the Lord's Wrath -blood- under the charge of an Angel who has charge of the fire - the first element of the Day of the Lord's Wrath. (Smoke is provided by the fire -and- by mountains which "smoke".) 1.) He touches down and splits the Mount of Olives in two. This is the second earthquake of the sixth Seal. This allows those in Jerusalem to escape to the east, and then south to join the Jews from Judea who escaped at the midpoint invasion of Israel from the North (Gog/Magog war). 2.) Upon this newly christened Mount Zion, Jesus musters the 144,000 from all over the world. (Isa 13:2-4). These Firstfruits are not Jewish, but Christian, being of the same type as the Harvest - they look to Jesus for their salvation; they are believers. (Note: John uses a list unlike any other for the 12 tribes. We have to allow there is a reason for that; that he is not pointing to natural borne Israelis.) This people may represent the spiritual Israel that Paul references in Romans. 3.) Leaving these men to be sealed by Angels, Jesus then goes to the place where the Dead in Christ "rest in peace." In accordance with John 5:25, this time the application is not to those who are alive but spiritually dead in their sin as was the case to those hearing His Words, but literally applicable to those who have actually passed away and are physically dead, yet are spiritually alive because of their faith. I allow that this group can include people from before Jesus' First Advent, like Daniel. 4.) Now with these Saints, a great multitude of souls in new, imperishable, immortal bodies; Jesus makes a victory lap over the earth - east to west - gathering those who are still alive and remain after the Great Tribulation has decimated the Elect to a mere remnant. Also included are any who hear the Word for the first time because of the first of three Angels who precede the Harvest in Revelation chapter 14 and whom are revealed there as well. 5.) Now with this Great Multitude, Jesus delivers the wheat to the barn of Heaven (Mt 13's parable of the wheat and the tares) and with the First Trumpet, He goes out to meet the 144,000 on Mount Zion and they make the charge against Jerusalem, and then fight in the Valley of Decision, which scholars peg to the area around Bethlehem, just to the south. ___________________________________________________________ You didn't ask, but during the time of the other Trumpets, Jesus returns, with the 144,000 who never leave His Side, to Heaven. A beautiful portrait of our Lord doing this can be found in Isaiah 63: 1 Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press? 3 " I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment. 4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come. 5 "I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me. 6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth." I will also add that Jesus was mobile in death - - He taught in Luke 16 of Paradise and Hades: and one could not go from one to the other - In John, Jesus tells the thief on His Right that they will go to Paradise that day. - He revealed to Peter after His Resurrection, and Peter wrote that Jesus went from Paradise, which no one could leave, to the place where spirits from the time of Noah were imprisoned, and made an announcement to them (He did not evangelize them, this is a translation mistake in some versions - look up the underlying Greek verb). - As Jesus told Mary after His Resurrection, He did not spend His time in the grave with the Father - but only after was to go to the Father. You can read about this encounter in Zechariah 3:1-8. I think the "men wondered at" are the 24 Elders, who follow Jesus in His train as per the Psalms. Jesus was also mobile after His Resurrection. - He popped in and out of our earthly existence several times, speaking to those who needed it, and providing a witness. - He only finally ascends in Acts 1:11, and His Return is said to be in the same way. After Jesus comes, and as the strongman, steals the most valuable thing in the world from Satan - us - with the Rapture, which is like a thief; - He is also has His Army scale walls and climb in through windows, like a thief - And He pops in and out unexpectedly, also like a thief - to marshal the Remnant Jews around. This explains this verse, which happens after the Harvest: Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") Notice that those who fail to obey are not left out of the proceedings like the five foolish virgins, but are taken along, albeit in shame for their nakedness. And that goes back to this verse: Isa 42:16 "I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, In paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, And I will not leave them undone." Jesus is mobile after the Day of the Lord, and this is so until the final battle at Armageddon, where once again, He transitions from Heaven to Earth to bring the Earth into the Kingdom of God with Title in hand.

I am not arguing that the Kingdom of God is not established at the end of the one 'seven' on the earth. That is the message of both Daniel 2 and Revelation 11/16/19. But here's a funny thing... I dare you to pull up every reference about the Kingdom of God. Do you know, that based on what is in the Bible, by what Jesus says, there is no way to state what its borders are, how large it is, or exactly when it is. One or two references are not enough, because if you go far enough, the Kingdom of God will be contradicted by another... What I am arguing is that the Last Trumpet, which is the trumpet call of God, which Jesus' sounds raising the Dead in Christ - is not equal to the seventh trumpet of God's Wrath which an Angel sounds. They are two different trumpets.

What assumption is that? I didn't make any assumption. The first line I put out was an assertion based on a conclusion drawn from a logical thread through Scripture where each is linked by context and language. The title of the thread introduces the conclusion. The body proves the conclusion. The conclusion then sums up the proof provided in the body. First of all, the Kingdom of God is not synonymous with the Day of the Lord. Second of all, it is taken from the Bible directly. Now if you don't like it, you might show specifically why something does not match - but unlike you, I did start with the only reference for the "last trumpet" in the Bible and didn't do an apple and oranges comparison.

Jesus said concerning this period of time: Mt 24:9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Paul said concerning this period of time leading up to the Rapture: 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, 1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, Concerning the martyrs, Jesus revealed to John: Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Concerning the Great Tribulation) Rev 13:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And Jesus said: Mt 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Mk 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. 12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. During the Great Tribulation, we will die. Jesus said that we will be killed, and that if the Great Tribulation were not cut short - none of the Elect (who are the only applicable ones affected) would not be killed. Paul said we who are alive AND REMAIN - there is no sense that the majority of the Elect are there. Jesus warned us that we must endure to the end - to the point of losing our life! While the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) - those also include ALL the Dead in Christ who are raised first, before those -who remain- are taken up. Thus, "out of" is at that point in time. Not all of the Great Multitude survive the Great Tribulation. The ones God protects through the second half of the one 'seven' are the Remnant Jews who flee. The woman as portrayed in Rev 12:1 is interpreted by Scripture found in Gen 37:9-11 as the Hebrew nation of Israel. WE are contrasted against her in Rev 12:17. There is no evidence that a multitude, or even a majority of the Elect survive the Daniel Test of the Great Tribulation. The sense I get that the Great Tribulation is so great - i.e. terrible - is because the Great Tribulation entails such a large loss of innocent life!

I will argue specifics all day long and show you the reason for the sequence of events that I lay out - from one, two, or even three linear, prophetic narratives. I do not do merely a 'this means that, and that means this' eschatological rendering as so many do to make Scripture fit their own thinking which they turn into belief.

The sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:1-13 The sidebar account, kind of like when a court trial is interrupted by some legal point which has the Judge conferring with the lawyers, happens when John is told not to write. John is told to measure the Temple, but we never hear of that... right? No, actually, you can read about John measuring the Temple way back in Ezekiel. In the final chapters describing the “third” Temple, Ezekiel sees a man (in bronze – imbued with Heaven) measuring the Temple just as John was ordered. In outlining the events in the sidebar account the first thing to jump out as a set of facts is that it has two halves in it. This omits the midpoint abomination, but an omission is not a commission of an error in prophecy: the sequence remains intact. The actual splitting of the one ‘seven’ was initiated by Gabriel when he told Daniel in the middle of the one ‘seven,’ so what is presented in Revelation is not at odds with Daniel 9:27, but instead, compliments it. The mention of two halves of the one ‘seven’ here are the first two of five times this phrase is repeated in the next two chapters – and repetition of a specific and unique event is indicative of parallel account construction within a book. Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss. Two Witnesses arise. Earth changing earthquake. As for placement, it would be easy to say 1st half / 2nd half just because the Bible ordered them in that fashion narrating about the Temple and then the Two Witnesses - but there is reason to do that besides the given order. Starting with the given order of first half/second half would be logical because this is a linear narrative, and that is the basic pattern for most of the Bible, but there are other reasons buttressing that assessment as well, they reinforce through logic so that taking the events listed in the sidebar account as linear are not an assumption. In order for the Abomination to stand in front of the Curtain as Jesus said with the "Holy Place," and to actually be in the Temple as Paul stated (Paul never lived without a Temple in place) There is going to have to be a Temple built - and along the lines of what John measured. The Temple must exist (or be built) in the first half of the one ‘seven.’ Now the Witnesses precede Jesus, so they could come in the first half, but as God's Wrath of desolations which have been decreed doesn't fall until after the midpoint abomination – and the Two Witnesses can call down some of it – then they must (at least) occupy some of the second half of the one ‘seven.’ The Two Witnesses have to occupy the whole second half because their end coincides with the end of the one 'seven' which has such a great earthquake in chapter 11. The 1260 days comes after the midpoint. This then makes sense: They precede Christ’s parousia, call down some of God's desolations, and are killed by a Demon who is let out when the fifth Trumpet opens the abyss. Then, they arise right before an earth-changing Great Earthquake which happens to finish the one ‘seven.’ So, they are God’s first response to the midpoint abomination and they see God’s Wrath through to the end. The final earthquake of the one ‘seven’ sets up a condition in the Millennium. The first earthquake of the sixth Seal shakes the earth to leave that which is unshakeable, like finding the truth. The second earthquake of the sixth Seal, when the Mount of Olives is split in two, changes the entire earth’s relative geography much like phenomenal earthquakes of years just past have “rang the earth” like a bell. While the second moves mountains, this final third one eliminates them. This provides for a condition in the Millennium whereby rain is not determined by mechanical lifting, bringing forth both rain forests and corresponding deserts, but by Jesus depending upon a nation’s obedience to worship. So our list now looks like this: The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” Worship of the beast (rebellion against God) Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven' Temple w/ Gentiles 42 mos. He wages war against the Saints We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15) Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky' Armies surround Jerusalem Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath Great Tribulation Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down upon the earth Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Son of Man coming on the clouds Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal. First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Wrath of God following the Day of the Lord Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rdf of man killed Seventh Trumpet First Bowl - Sores on Man Second Bowl - All sea to blood Third Bowl - All water to blood Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss Seventh Bowl – end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator Two Witnesses arise Earth changing earthquake Notice that the Two Witnesses are a direct response to the midpoint abomination, they come as the Great Tribulation goes into effect. They are the Marines of God's Army and the anti-Christ is unable to subdue them; the Two Witnesses can destroy any who oppose them.

That is a conclusion of yours. The Great Tribulation is cut short according to Jesus in Mt 24:22. You have it running the whole length of the rest of the one 'seven' from its midpoint start with the abomination of desolation. That is an internal inconsistency of your eschatological belief. This thread is not a vehicle to compare our eschatologies. No one here agrees with anyone else on 75% of what they share, much less than 100%. I am not wrong simply because my eschatology conflicts with yours. Now if you want to argue about your Post-Trib take with its "last day" adherence, we can do so on this thread: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/199678-the-last-trumpet-is-not-the-7th-trumpet/ I will gladly entertain your eschatology there, however, I ask that you refrain from diverting this thread here. Again, this is your belief, and as such, and as one of the internal inconsistencies of Post-Trib, it conflicts with Jesus' truthful statement about the Great Tribulation being cut short in Mt 24:22. That is wholly your conclusion and you are not pointing to any mistake I've made in the presentation so far as the Sequence-of-Events in linear, prophetic narrative passages show. Scripture only shows that the Harvest comes AFTER the midpoint abomination of a talking idol of the anti-Christ, and the Great Tribulation. Any insistence that it comes at the end of the one 'seven' is statement of belief from a "last day" Post-Trib adherent, and not any specific instance of error found so far in the Scripture I have provided. Again, I am not wrong simply because what I am presenting conflicts with your pre-set eschatology. You say that the Harvest occurs after God's Wrath, but in Revelation 14, Jesus reveals to John that God's Wrath comes immediately after the Harvest. This facet of your eschatology has another internal inconsistency with Scripture. Red herring. This has nothing to do with Pre-Trib eschatology. As the label points out, I am Pre-Wrath.

This is not talking about muslims and islam. The Great Tribulation concerns the wholesale slaughter of Christians and anyone else who does not do as the authorities say. I am not limited by what you cannot see. I have put this prophecy together with others around specific and unique events in the prophetic linear narratives. That you don't believe or have a different opinion does not change what I have assembled through my analysis of the sequence-of-events which leads me to a Pre-Wrath position. That is wholly your opinion and not any firm conclusion reached in the prophetic Scripture.

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath. 1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven). 1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us. It is on the Day of the Lord. It is on the clouds. 3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign: MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " `the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52. 4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is revealed by Jesus to John with the sixth Seal: REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal. - The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians. - Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered. - Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation. - This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse. The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth. · Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken. · Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound. · And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth. The Church is not to endure these conditions: Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. 1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet. · The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet. · Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets. · It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance. · The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring. The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after: The one ‘seven’ starts The first half oppression The midpoint abomination(s) The Great Tribulation It happens on: The Day of the Lord It happens before: Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time) The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

Actually, I am a very poor student of Jewish history vis-a-vis the historical section of the Old Testament. All the jumbled names that I tend to gloss over and forget, and the stupid, petty infighting get all jumbled. To tell the truth, I never had associated Ezekiel with Nebuchadnezzar before and the initial assault upon Jerusalem and having a portion led into captivity, but after you pointed this out - I started to study it. The first place I go is an established commentary - the Expositor's Bible Commentary, because it is not the work of one man, which greatly limits the discernment thereof of any opinion rendered because no one is there to correct and fill in the information one person (like myself) can provide in way of commentary (and opinion). That said - I will have to change my opinion on why Daniel is excluded as not being relegated to simply being in exile at the time. I will have to do more study into the work of real scholars who have come before us in order to maintain an opinion on why Daniel is not included and not go on a single opinion I was given so long ago that I've forgotten who first taught the reason I opined to me. Now as to Ezekiel - YES - he was a priest. NO - it is not stated in 1:2, but comes with the scholarly dissertation found in the Expositor's Bible Commentary: Text and Exposition I. Ezekiel's Commission (1:1- 3:27) A. The Vision of God's Glory (1:1- 28) 1. The setting of the vision (1:1- 3) Ezekiel saw this vision "by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians" (v. 3). The river Kebar, a navigable canal, flowed southeast from the city of Babylon (see Introduction:Place of Origin and Destination). Ezekiel was the stated recipient of the vision (v. 3). He was a priest and the son of Buzi. Nothing is known about Buzi, though as Ezekiel's father he would also have been a priest. The notation of Ezekiel's priesthood is significant. He would have been well acquainted with the Mosaic covenant and the priestly functions of the temple, both of which pervade the entire message of this book. Ezekiel was able to describe clearly the glory of God in the temple and the temple functions. He also was prepared to evaluate accurately the rebellion of his people against the explicit commands of the law, which was the basis for the Lord's judgments that Ezekiel announced. Moreover, this priestly background enabled Ezekiel to understand the millennial temple vision concluding the entire prophecy.