seeking the lost

6 hours ago, RdJ said:

I can see why they say mid trib when I read revelation, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's pretrib and midtrib. At least there are 2 raptures, because the 2 witnesses get raptured as a seperate event.

Rapture is different from ascension.  Rapture is when those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed. 

On 4/23/2024 at 12:59 PM, Vine Abider said:

3.    First-fruits (early rapture) are taken directly to God’s throne somewhere in first 3.5 years of the treaty.

Before the rapture, there must be a resurrection.  Do you think it is OK to add a resurrection to facilitate your views?  The first resurrection is not until the end of the tribulation  

On 6/20/2023 at 8:47 PM, truth7t7 said:

"The harvest is the end of this world", the wheat doesn't continue to grow in your imaginary millennial kingdom on this earth

Matthew 13:38-40KJV

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

You have such an interesting take on scripture.  Two questions for you.  What does your timeline and what is your hope?

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Do you realize that teaching there will be a future thousand year kingdom on this earth, that you may be adding to the scripture?

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV

6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV

5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV

15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The text is the final word not personal opinions.

Jesus will come as the conquering king in the days of vindication.  This is when the tares are taken out and the floor is thougally purged.  Everyone who does not have the mark of God will be cast into the winepress of the wrath of God.  The wheat continues to grow for a thousand years.

At the end of the thousand years, 2 Peter comes into play.  

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The purpose of the rapture is to take those who are alive and remain faithful to the new heavens and the new earth.

This is the time that the rest of the dead are raised.  All are raised at this time and the sheep and goats are separated.

13 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The problem is, you believe and teach that a literal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth is seen in Revelation 20:1-6 "Wrong"

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth following as many claim

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

Do you realize that by saying there is no literal Thousand-year reign on earth you may be taking away from the writings of this book?

The nature of the Millenium is often perverted but there is a record of this on the earth.  The first resurrection that you have pointed out is limited to those that have been beheaded.  They do not go up and there is not a resurrection of all the righteous at this point.  This being said it must also be noted that the rapture has not happened yet.  The martyrs reign with Jesus on the earth for a thousand years.  They are joined by the elect for whom the days were shortened.  These are natural people that marry and have children.  Satan is bound during this time.  If there were a rapture before this time and all are changed then the final test is meaningless.  If everyone on earth has participated in the first resurrection and have become like the angels then the testing is meaningless.  Those that are part of the first resurrection will not be subject to the second death.  The text indicates there is a huge number that will be affected by the great deception.

The rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time that the dead in Christ are raised and the time of the rapture.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

All the Just and Righteous from all generations enter into the Resurrection for the Just or First Resurrection

That is not what the text says.

44 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

I need a clarification of the text.  You have said that the first resurrection is of the just.  Let us take a closer look at the text.

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is clearly defined.  Three things define this resurrection, content, time, and purpose.  The content, "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;".  This is a closed set.  No one that is not listed is raised at this time.  The time is right before the millennium and the purpose is to reign with Christ. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Those that are raised in the first resurrection do not go up in the air.  They are raised to reign on the earth.  This way they do not have to make a big U-turn.

The next resurrection content is clearly identified by content and time.  Rev. 20:  5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.  The rest of the dead includes everyone not included in the first resurrection.

14 hours ago, The Light said:

The dead in Christ do not rise on the last day. They are raised before the seals are opened.

I do believe that Jesus must have got it wrong.  He said, "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."  (John 6)

There are many people raised from the dead from the beginning of time until now.  Jesus told us to heal the sick, cast out devils, and raise the dead.  Most of these are raised to life and then die again.  These cases do not include an ascension or a rapture.

Everyone will support views with some text or reasoning.  The truth can only be known by accepting the text as written.  Be careful of seeing what you want to see.

5 hours ago, The Light said:

I believe that the dead in Christ rise first. Then after that He will return for the alive that remain. After that He will return for the 144,000 first fruits, after that He will return for the harvest that is the result of the first fruits at the 6th seal. 

So, that should prove what you are saying is wrong. It does not appear that you understand these things. You see them but you just block it out of your mind and play what you think is the trump card that there is not a rapture until the end.

So what do you do with the 2 witnesses that are killed and rise from the dead. Remember, that can't happen until the end right?

I think John and Jesus were aware of when resurrections occur.  They are aware of the two witnesses but yet the record is clear the first resurrection takes place at the beginning of the Millenium.  You may disagree with my understanding but I am only relating the text as written.  The dead in Christ rise on the last day which coincides with the rest of the dead resurrection.  

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

These two resurrections are unalterable resurrections.  They should not be moved in time or content.

There is a real-life history of China.  American missionaries taught the pre-tribulation rapture.  The communist took over with great brutality.  Many Christians were tortured and many were killed.  They were told and led to believe that God would not let such things happen.  Many fell away because of false expectations.

Watch out if your hope is in an escape from trouble.

20 hours ago, The Light said:

Do you not understand that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous.

The first resurrection is defined by time, content, and purpose.  The time is at the beginning of the thousand years.  The content is not all righteous but limited to those described in the text of Rev. 20.  The purpose is to reign with Christ upon the earth.  (They do not go up as if they missed the earth and had to come back down)

Rev.20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Just two resurrections. First of those that were beheaded (I do not want to add to that description, only those listed).  The second resurrection is The rest of the dead.  This includes righteous and unrighteous from Adam To the end of the Millenium.  Then they are separated sheep on the right and goats on the left.

Matt. 25: 

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

20 hours ago, The Light said:

You said the first resurrection happens at the END OF THE TRIBULAITON. The verses you are quoting happen at the END OF GODS WRATH.

Do you not understand that the first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous.

I know that you do not believe in the pretrib rapture and therefore think it is acceptable to eliminate the dead in Christ rising when Jesus comes before the seals are opened. This is the barley harvest. So you can pretend that there is no barley harvest.

But what do you do with the second harvest of the fig tree. Do you pretend that Daniel 12 is not there. Daniel 12 happens when the great tribulation occurs. The is at the fifth seal. 

Daniel 12

 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

There is war in heaven. Michael and his angels prevail and Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven.

Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

We see that event in Olivet Discourse.

Mark 13

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This happens at the 6th seal

Revelation 6

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

So the verses that you quote happen AFTER THE WRATH OF GOD, which is AFTER the 7th seal is opened. Daniel 12 happens at the 6th seal.

So what do you do with the resurrection that happens at the 6th seal? Do you pretend it's not there or are you unaware of this resurrection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I just have a simple view that is formed with fear of the Lord.  I take seriously the warning not to add to The book.  I do find it interesting that you find so many resurrections and raptures.  Do all of these resurrections have raptures?

The words of Jesus have some influence on my understanding.  John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.  The last day fits the resurrection listed as the rest of the dead.  I find this definition in 2 Peter 3: 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.  Tell me this is not the last day.

Jesus taught that the tares are taken out first.

The unrighteous are wiped out first.  Malichi 4: 1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

It's not that i don't believe in a pretribulation rapture I just do not believe in a pre-resurrection rapture.

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

First; meaning preeminence, superior to, the Best, the Gold Standard.

Now one should consider; who are the, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th fruits which go into the First Resurrection, and who goes when.  Christ being the First Fruit.

In Christ

Montana Marv

It could be that it just means first.  Speculation leads to error.  To go beyond the text may be considered as adding to the writings of this book.  This is not a recreational game.  Because of this warning, it is best to stay as close to the text as possible. 

Rev. 22: 

Nothing May Be Added

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

You claim that the first resurrection is not until the end of the tribulation and you claim that it is clearly labeled.

Can you provide chapter and verse the supports your claim?

Rev. 20: 4,5,  And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.…

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, I showed it, you will not receive it. I am correct, so you being in error is not going to phase my life brother. 

Do you understand the scripture in Rev 20 that identifies the first resurrection?  Do you know what the word first means? 

Rev 20: 4,5   And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.…

How many resurrections come before the first resurrection?

1 minute ago, The Light said:

Jesus tells us in Revelation 3 that He is coming soon. He also says let no one take your crown. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns in Revelation 4. Then we see kings and priests in Revelation 5 before the throne.

Do the math. Use some simple logic. We see 24 elders with crowns in heaven. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes. Since the dead in Christ rise first we know that there has been a resurrection.

If you are expecting Jesus to paint you a picture, He is not. He says He is coming when you think not. That is why we watch for the soon coming of the Messiah and the pretribulation rapture.

The simple logic does not work.  The first resurrection is not until the end of the tribulation.  That resurrection is clearly labeled as the first resurrection.  Doing the math, how many resurrections come before the first resurrection?

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Paul taught it VERY CLEARY, it can be seen throughout the bible to those who understand the TIMING TELLS of Prophecy. I am a Prophecy guy, tbh, anytime someone tells me they do not see the Rapture as Pre Trib, in my heart, I know they are never going to be able to see the DEEP TRUTHS of God's End Times, why? Because they can not grasp a very SIMPLE End Time Event. 

Paul taught the resurrection followed by the rapture.  1 Thes. 4: 15-17, 

The Return of the Lord
…15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

It does not matter how much revelation you have if you depart from the text which clearly says we will not proceed them, you may be adulterating scripture.

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its COUNTLESS TBH...........We see the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Rev. 4:4 they have on CROWNS, sit at the THRONE and have in WHITE RAIMENTL....Now go look at Rev.2:10, Rev. 3:5 and 3:21 and those who OVERCOME are promised these three things, the 24 Elders are the Church IN HEAVEN before the Seals are ever opened. In 1 Chronicles 24 we the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. So, the 24 Elders is referencing us as Kings and Priest which is what Jesus calls us in Rev. 1:6 and what w call ourselves in Rev. 5:9:10. Rev, 4:1 is the Rapture as Jesus sounds like a Trump. Paul stated I tell you a MYSTERY (Secret...............Musterion or God SHUTS THE MOUTH) so the Rapture was a Secret nit meant for Israel per se, but for the Church. In 2 Thess. 2"3 Paul says the Church will DEPART, you are the guys that confuse this with a DEPARTURE of the Faith. So, he tells them not to FEAR, because the Church will be gathered unto  Jesus BEFORE the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath Falls. In Rev. 19 ANYONE can see the Church is in Heaven before they get their White Robes which we see in Rev. 4:4 and in Rev. 7:9-17. So , we Marry the Lamb Jesus THEN RETURN to Earth fir the Marriage Supper (Armageddon). The Bride & Groom always stays in the fathers house 7 days then the Marriage Supper !! We RETURN with Jesus AND the Anti-Christ and all his Armies are STILL ON THIS EARTH !! There are thousands more timing  tells.

You have failed to show the text that teaches that there is a resurrection at Rev. 4.  You cannot show one because there is not one.  Without a resurrection, there can not be a rapture.  This is immutable.

29 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 14:6 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.

The Churches replacement, well before Post-Trib. well before your speculation of a Post-Trib Rapture and/or resurrection.  No added Scripture, none taken away.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That proclamation does not seem to be a message to the lost.  The message is "Fear God and give Him Glory"

I just need to see the resurrection anywhere in the scripture that will support a rapture.  The only text that I know that fits is at the end of the thousand years.  The rest of the dead are raised at that time.  Jesus taught that those who are believers will be raised on the last day (John 6).  That is the last day. (2 Pet. 3: 10)

0

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well, yes, but the Church was already Raptured Pre Trib. The Elect here is Israel, the Martyrs are the Gentiles who repent AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture. The Remnant in Rev. 17:12 is the Gentile Church.

How is anyone saved without someone to share with them?  Romans 10: 14,15 New International Version
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Much of the teaching of the pretribulation rapture has come from those who have had visions and special revelations.  Whatever you have seen must not add to the text or take away from it.

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well, yes, but the Church was already Raptured Pre Trib. The Elect here is Israel, the Martyrs are the Gentiles who repent AFTER the Pre Trib Rapture. The Remnant in Rev. 17:12 is the Gentile Church.

If we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs if we had some eggs.  Without a resurrection there can not be a rapture.  Please show the text that says there is a resurrection before the tribuation.  Is ther a text or just your reasoning?

It seems that you have neither bacon or eggs.

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are correct but also in error. YES...the Wheat (Israel) does grow unto the very end along with the TARES (wicked world) which is seen in Rev. 14 as the Grape Harvest which is placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath and KILLED or Bundled in to the grave awaiting the Second Resurrection where the wicked are burned in hellfire, so yes, they are killed, the Righteous who are still alive are gathered together, the Martyrs of the 70th week are ONLY raised and judged at Rev. 20:4.

Meanwhile The Wheat or Israel fled unto the Petra/Bozrah area, they are known in CODE as the 144,000 virgins, but are really just the 3.5-5 million Jews who flee Judea, thus the Wheat are gathered into the Fathers barn, and they REMAINED on earth until the very end with the TARES (Grapes). But what you think you are proving, (no Pre Trib Rapture) you do not prove. We the Church are the BARLEY Harvest, which not only comes in first, but can be Harvested and SIFTED without being CRUSHED beforehand!

Wheat has to be crushed. GET THIS, the name Tribulation comes from a Greek name for a Machine (TRIBULUM) which crushed Wheat, in order to Harvest and sift it, Barley was much cheaper because it can be Harvested without being crushed !! Now let me show you why I call Rev. 14 the The Harvest Chapter. We see All Three Harvests over a 7 year period, but in order to do so we need a FLASHBACK. 

The Wheat are Harvested at the VERY END with the Tares or Wicked Grapes, but in a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture we see Jesus Harvesting the Church from upon a cloud. 

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand (3.5-5 Million Jews who repent but who are really in Petra/Bozrah area), having his Father's name written in their foreheads(Israel is The Fathers Bride, the Church is Jesus' Bride, Israel are The WHEAT).

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins(All people under the Blood are VIRGINS see the 10 Virgin Brides). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth(meaning Israel rules with Jesus from Jerusalem). These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Seven Year FLASHBACK: Barley Harvest (Church)

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

{{{ So, Jesus, PRE TRIB, Raptures the Church, but in a Harvest Chapter where all three Harvests must be shown, and two are at the very end, the only way to do this is in a FLASHBACK, we understand flashbacks in movies but not in the book of Revelation it would seem. }}}

Wicked Grapes/TARES Harvest. 

Finally, we see the Wicked Grapes or TARES who grow to the very end with the Wheat (Israel) and are then bound (killed) in the grave in order to be burned at a later date (2nd Resurrection). 

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So, the Wicked are killed at the SAME TIME as the Whet are Gathered, in essence, at the very end. BUT........Not before the Church is Raptured Pre Trib. We are the Barley Harvest, we do not need to be CRUSHED in order to be Harvested, Israel does, they NEED the 70th week Tribulation in order to repent. We the Church are ready to go, at least 5 of the 10 Virgin Brides are ready.

Amen, come Lord come.

This is way too much manipulation for me to understand.  A straight read would be on the day of vindication Jesus wipes out the tares.  The tribulation is shortened for the sake of the elect.  The millennium begins with the elect that have survived the tribulation.  The elect are joined by the martyrs that are raised to reign.

Isaiah 63: 

God's Judgment on the Nations

1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Malachi 4: 

The Day of the LORD
(Zephaniah 1:7–18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11; 2 Peter 3:8–13)

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

The wicked are taken away the righteous shine in the kingdom.  They tread on the ashes of the wicked.

59 minutes ago, The Light said:

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unrighteous.

So are you willing to nullify the word to support your views?

2 hours ago, The Light said:

I have moved nothing. I understand what I am reading. Instead of making statements like this, you would be better served to study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

You seem to find things that cannot be there.  The text of Rev 20 must be handled with integrity.  

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How many resurrections come before the first resurrection?  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the thousand years.  Those of the first resurrection are not going up, they are being raised to reign on the earth.  The content of this resurrection is specified and must not be added to.  The last day resurrection is described as the rest of the dead.  This is when the dead in Christ that do not fit the category of the first resurrection are raised.  Let the text stand.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Exactly. And what did he see? 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings and priests before the throne in Rev 5.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The correct order is first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. Christ will come for His bride when it's like the days of Noah as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. People are going to be running around saying that aliens have come. That's when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

Then there are first fruits of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. They are seen before the throne in Revelation 14. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the harvest. Then they that are Christs at Him coming will be raptured. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will send His angels and remain in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came as the wrath of God is about to begin.

The is no need to make anything up. There is only a need to understand what you are reading.

There are two raptures. There is the grain harvest and the fruit harvest. The grain harvest is divided into barley and wheat. The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive Church. The fruit harvest is the seed of the woman, Israel

The fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, as the fathers were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

There are only two resurrections. The resurrection of the righteous is the first resurrection and the resurrection of the unrighteous is the second resurrection.

There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits.  They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word.  Their intent is to drive you to the curse.  Eve was deceived in this way.  There is a clear warning about adding to this book.  Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be.

Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection.  Rev. 6: 

The Fifth Seal: Martyrs

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened.  The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  

The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book.

The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD.  These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each.  This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text.