seeking the lost

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You are correct but also in error. YES...the Wheat (Israel) does grow unto the very end along with the TARES (wicked world) which is seen in Rev. 14 as the Grape Harvest which is placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath and KILLED or Bundled in to the grave awaiting the Second Resurrection where the wicked are burned in hellfire, so yes, they are killed, the Righteous who are still alive are gathered together, the Martyrs of the 70th week are ONLY raised and judged at Rev. 20:4.

Meanwhile The Wheat or Israel fled unto the Petra/Bozrah area, they are known in CODE as the 144,000 virgins, but are really just the 3.5-5 million Jews who flee Judea, thus the Wheat are gathered into the Fathers barn, and they REMAINED on earth until the very end with the TARES (Grapes). But what you think you are proving, (no Pre Trib Rapture) you do not prove. We the Church are the BARLEY Harvest, which not only comes in first, but can be Harvested and SIFTED without being CRUSHED beforehand!

Wheat has to be crushed. GET THIS, the name Tribulation comes from a Greek name for a Machine (TRIBULUM) which crushed Wheat, in order to Harvest and sift it, Barley was much cheaper because it can be Harvested without being crushed !! Now let me show you why I call Rev. 14 the The Harvest Chapter. We see All Three Harvests over a 7 year period, but in order to do so we need a FLASHBACK. 

The Wheat are Harvested at the VERY END with the Tares or Wicked Grapes, but in a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture we see Jesus Harvesting the Church from upon a cloud. 

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand (3.5-5 Million Jews who repent but who are really in Petra/Bozrah area), having his Father's name written in their foreheads(Israel is The Fathers Bride, the Church is Jesus' Bride, Israel are The WHEAT).

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins(All people under the Blood are VIRGINS see the 10 Virgin Brides). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth(meaning Israel rules with Jesus from Jerusalem). These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Seven Year FLASHBACK: Barley Harvest (Church)

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

{{{ So, Jesus, PRE TRIB, Raptures the Church, but in a Harvest Chapter where all three Harvests must be shown, and two are at the very end, the only way to do this is in a FLASHBACK, we understand flashbacks in movies but not in the book of Revelation it would seem. }}}

Wicked Grapes/TARES Harvest. 

Finally, we see the Wicked Grapes or TARES who grow to the very end with the Wheat (Israel) and are then bound (killed) in the grave in order to be burned at a later date (2nd Resurrection). 

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So, the Wicked are killed at the SAME TIME as the Whet are Gathered, in essence, at the very end. BUT........Not before the Church is Raptured Pre Trib. We are the Barley Harvest, we do not need to be CRUSHED in order to be Harvested, Israel does, they NEED the 70th week Tribulation in order to repent. We the Church are ready to go, at least 5 of the 10 Virgin Brides are ready.

Amen, come Lord come.

This is way too much manipulation for me to understand.  A straight read would be on the day of vindication Jesus wipes out the tares.  The tribulation is shortened for the sake of the elect.  The millennium begins with the elect that have survived the tribulation.  The elect are joined by the martyrs that are raised to reign.

Isaiah 63: 

God's Judgment on the Nations

1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Malachi 4: 

The Day of the LORD
(Zephaniah 1:7–18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11; 2 Peter 3:8–13)

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

The wicked are taken away the righteous shine in the kingdom.  They tread on the ashes of the wicked.

59 minutes ago, The Light said:

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The second resurrection is the resurrection of the unrighteous.

So are you willing to nullify the word to support your views?

2 hours ago, The Light said:

I have moved nothing. I understand what I am reading. Instead of making statements like this, you would be better served to study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

You seem to find things that cannot be there.  The text of Rev 20 must be handled with integrity.  

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How many resurrections come before the first resurrection?  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the thousand years.  Those of the first resurrection are not going up, they are being raised to reign on the earth.  The content of this resurrection is specified and must not be added to.  The last day resurrection is described as the rest of the dead.  This is when the dead in Christ that do not fit the category of the first resurrection are raised.  Let the text stand.

10 hours ago, The Light said:

Exactly. And what did he see? 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings and priests before the throne in Rev 5.

The first resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous. The correct order is first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. Christ will come for His bride when it's like the days of Noah as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. People are going to be running around saying that aliens have come. That's when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

Then there are first fruits of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes. They are seen before the throne in Revelation 14. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the harvest. Then they that are Christs at Him coming will be raptured. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. He will send His angels and remain in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came as the wrath of God is about to begin.

The is no need to make anything up. There is only a need to understand what you are reading.

There are two raptures. There is the grain harvest and the fruit harvest. The grain harvest is divided into barley and wheat. The barley is the dead in Christ and the wheat is the alive Church. The fruit harvest is the seed of the woman, Israel

The fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Jews were supposed to be the first harvest, as the fathers were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other Gods. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

There are only two resurrections. The resurrection of the righteous is the first resurrection and the resurrection of the unrighteous is the second resurrection.

There are such things as doctrines of demons and seducing spirits.  They play on the desires of the flesh and use a perverted word.  Their intent is to drive you to the curse.  Eve was deceived in this way.  There is a clear warning about adding to this book.  Seducing spirits lead you to believe that resurrections and raptures are in a time where they cannot be.

Chapter 6 is after what you believe is a rapture and a resurrection.  Rev. 6: 

The Fifth Seal: Martyrs

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These ask a question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  The answer indicates a cry for that which has not yet happened.  The answer is revealing, "and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  

The addition of a rapture or explaining these words away of the text is taking away from this book.

The time and content of each resurrection are clearly defined in and by the WORD of GOD.  These are not subject to redefinition or moving the time of each.  This redefining or moving of the time is a perversion of the text.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 3 tells us that He will open a door that no man can shut and no man can open. It also tells us that He comes quickly and let no man take your crown.

Revelation 4 tells us that a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We see that the trump of God or voice of God has said come up hither. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings in priests in heaven which is the Church in heaven.

We also know by the Word of God that the dead will rise before the living so obviously there has been a resurrection.

There is a huge difference between adding to the Book and understanding what the Book says.

There will be a rapture before the seals are opened. When the seals are opened, the final week has begun.

You do know that the only one going up in chapter 4 is John.  He is only going up in the spirit and remained upon the earth.  The message he received was of the things that are to come.

The first resurrection is clearly stated.  The time and those included in the first resurrection are clearly defined.  The time is at the beginning of the thousand years.  Look carefully at those who are included: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20: 4)

If you add a resurrection before the stated resurrection identified as the first resurrection that is not seeing what is there.  That is making stuff up.

Because the time of the rest of the dead being raised is specific the rapture can only happen at that time.  That is at the end of the thousand years.  Rev. 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.   There are only two resurrections clearly identified with time and content.  Going beyond the text is adding to the text.

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

Yes, there are two resurrections.  They are clearly described in the twentieth chapter of Revelation.  The first is only of those who were killed during the tribulation.  The second, last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  That day is the last day.  This day is described in 2 Peter 3: 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The last day is the day after which there are no other days.  Peter describes that day.  That is the day of resurrection for the ones who believe.  The unrighteous are also raised on that day.  Revelation 20 identifies the participants of the last day as the rest of the dead.  Matthew 25 gives a very clear understanding of the judgment of that day.  The righteous and the unrighteous stand for judgment.  At that time the sheep and the goats are separated.  Both sheep and goats are raised on the last day at the end of the thousand years.

Matt. 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The rapture of the Church will occur BEFORE the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5.

The Lord is at the door right now and it seems you are not aware.

You have said that the rapture is before the seals are opened.  The problem with that is that there is no resurrection there.  Do you feel comfortable adding one there?

There are consequences for adding to the book.

8 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

This entry into this First Resurrection is only for those listed; Not worshiped the Beast, nor his image, nor received the MOB on forehead or hand.  These are yet future, none have been instituted as yet. N.T Believers who have died, Present N.T. Believers still alive do not fit this scenario. So we cannot be included in this entry into the resurrection for the Just.

 The First Resurrection is a resurrection for the Just.  Those Just of Old Israel receive this entry after the conclusion of the 70th Week.  Dan 12:13.  They are raised up to receive their inheritance in the Land.  Those who did not worship the beast or image and did not receive the MOB are raise up to reign with Christ 1000 years.  Then there are all who did not follow Satan at the conclusion of the 1000 years, which were not consumed by fire.  When is their resurrection into the Just or First Resurrection? There may be 5 or more entries into the First (Just) Resurrection.

There are only two types of resurrections; One for the Just; the second for the unjust which is the second Death and which leads to the LOF. 

When do Adam and the rest of the Pre Flood Saints get resurrected. When do Noah and all the Post Flood Saints, not of Israel get resurrected.  When do those of Paradise and those of the bosom of Abraham get resurrected. When do those who survived the attack on Jerusalem at the end of the 70th week, who become Just get resurrected; and when do their offspring have a chance to get resurrected (those who did not follow Satan).

Just some things to think about.

In Christ

Montana Marv

In Christ

Montana Marv

The scripture is very clear.  There is a tendency to add to the text to make it say other things.  The first resurrection is only of the martyrs, all others are excluded from this resurrection.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years includes everyone not included in the first resurrection.  Just let the text define the content of each and do not add to the description.

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, seeking the lost.

Actually, that's NOT a good idea! This is too late in the narrative. The sun, moon, and stars event is found in Revelation 6, associated with the breaking of the sixth seal.  This is consistent with Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

However, I believe that there is ample information to conclude that the resurrection occurs just prior to that in the opening of the fifth seal:

Revelation 6:9-17 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The words translated as "the souls" in verse 9 is "tas psuchas," and the basic word "psuchee" is defined as this:

5590 psuchee (psuché, psyxē) ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo (psucho); breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay):
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psuchoo (psuchó, psýxō) ψύχω (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo (pneo), which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer (aer), which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
-- wax cold.

And, as said above, these words "exactly correspond respectively" to ...

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

If psuchee "exactly corresponds to" nefesh, then psuchee is more that just a "breath"; it, too, means "a breathing creature."

Thus, a "soul" is "a breathing creature." So, when we read the above verses, we should understand the fifth seal like this:

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the breathing creatures of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This implies that this is NOT "a scene from heaven" but is rather a scene upon the earth directly after the resurrection! They are ALIVE AGAIN and TALKING!

No.  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  This is not movable.

10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Can there be a rapture without a resurrection?

Not according to Jesus.

Paul tells us in 1 Thes 15:

"For this we say to you "by the Word of the Lord"..... (Paul is telling us that this is from the Lord Himself)... that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord , will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first"

Then...

"We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

When we look at the whole council of God and put all the scriptures together, then we get a complete picture. Not every verse has all the details in it.

Rev 14 speaks of the harvest of the earth. Matt 13 tells us that the harvest is the end of the age.

The harvest of the earth in Rev 14 is a complete harvest.... those in the grave and those still alive are gathered. Then those remaining, the tares, are gathered and put into the winepress of the Wrath of God.

So.... it's a complete harvest.

 

 

This is the very thing that is the most important thing concerning the rapture.  The rapture is dynamically and inextricably connected to the resurrection.  The problem with your interpretation is that the first resurrection does not occur until the end of the tribulation.  This resurrection is limited and not inclusive of any who are not mentioned.  They do not ascend to heaven.  They are raised to reign.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The tares have been removed and satan has been bound.  The thousand years begin then shall the righteous shine in the kingdom of the Father.

The rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the time that it can be said with certainty that the dead in Christ are raised.

Satan would have you believe that it is ok to add to the text and change the order because God loves you and does not want you to suffer.  His motivation is the same as in the garden, he is driving people to the curse.  Do not add.

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16  So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

This is the harvest of all the righteous.

Are you saying that the words "swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." is the rapture of the Church?  I have failed to see a resurrection, which must precede the rapture.  Is it OK to add one here for convenience?

'

19 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

How do you explain the wise virgins are taken alive to the wedding ? 

Are you the kind who beat your bride black and blue and killed her before marriage ?

Many Christians will be killed just as he said.  They are subject to the rage of satan.  All those who have the seal of God are protected from the wrath of God.

23 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Can you expand on this please. If Jesus had 'teachings... plural' that the wicked are taken out first, I would like to see them.....and also the 'many others' teachings

Thanks alot

The primary text is Matthew 13 with the parable of the wheat and the tares.  This states clearly that the tares are gathered out first and burned.  I recognize the book of Revelation as the teaching of Jesus recorded by John.  Consider Rev. 14: 

The Harvest of the Earth

14 And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man,c with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

15 Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16  So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

To be consistent both the wheat and the tares have grown together to this point.

Malachi 4: 

The Day of the LORD
(Zephaniah 1:7–18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1–11; 2 Peter 3:8–13)

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them.”

2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like calves from the stall. 3 Then you will trample the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day I am preparing,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Ezekiel 9 is a foreshadowing of how the Lord will handle the last days.  The righteous are marked and all that are not marked are wiped out.  Revelation is similar in these verses; Rev 7: 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back its four winds so that no wind would blow on land or sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Rev. 9: 3 And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

This seal is the protection from the wrath of God.

19 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Imho John saw 2 groups of people. Those in front of the Throne and those martyrs below the Altar. 

For this discussion, the position of the group is not as important as the description of who they are.  Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes

and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They came out of the great tribulation.  These are the ones spoken of to the ones under the altar.  They were told about the day of vengeance that will come after others that should be killed will be killed.  Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

On 4/30/2023 at 4:59 AM, R. Hartono said:

Rev. 6 ⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

John saw 2 group of people in heaven, one is the raptured great multitude of Rev 7, another group are martyrs found under the Altar.

The group under the alter asks a question, "How long?".  The answer is often overlooked.  Rev. 6:  ...and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.  The great multitude of chapter 7 are the ones he spoke of.  They came out of not before the tribulation.

On 6/7/2023 at 7:26 AM, InLoveForTheOne said:

The brothers and sisters who remain behind,
will, however, continue to follow the course of birth and earthly death.

According to the teachings of Jesus and many others, the wicked are taken out first and the righteous are left behind.

Looking forward to being left behind.

On 6/2/2023 at 9:08 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

1 Thes 4:15:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 24:22:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

In these passages, we may have overlooked two very important understandings. 

1 Thes: the term "alive and remain" or "alive and are left" is a Greek term meaning survival.

The Greek word for remain is perileipomai. It's a verb which means to leave over.... to remain over.... to survive.

It's not a general term for 'being alive'. It is used only twice in the New Testament, here and in verse 17. It's a term that means 'survival'.... survival where other people have already died.

So what is Paul  telling us  ..... Jesus is not going to come and 'poof' take us away from our everyday normal lives. Paul is saying there is going to be great tribulation ...... those who remain and survive until the coming of Jesus.... SURVIVE what? Survive the tribulation!

This is consistent with what Jesus tells us in Matt 24:22 ..... " Unless those days had been cut short".... what days? Those days of great tribulation will be cut short because "no life would be saved"..... that term "no life would be saved" means to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

If Jesus doesn't cut short the days of tribulation, then no life would have been saved. . The 'life' Jesus is  talking about is the saints, the believers. The onslaught from the antichrist and his goons will be so widespread that a total wipeout of Christians would happen unless He cuts those days short.... for the sake of believers, the elect of God!

Some say that the 'elect' are the Jews. 

Here are the 8 times elect is used in the NT:

 Mat 24:22......“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mat 24:24....“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mat 24:31.....“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 Mar 13:20.....“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 13:22.....for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mar 13:27.....“And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luk 18:7.....now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Rom 8:33.....Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

ELECT..... picked out........... chosen................. chosen by God to obtain salvation through Christ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those described as alive and remain are in the time frame at the end of the millennium.  Satan has been loosed and will deceive many.  Remain refers to those who have not been deceived.  The resurrection is followed by the rapture.  Both of these events happen at the same time after the thousand years.

6 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I've finally found the rapture in the bible.Yes it was there all along.The weeds are gathered first.

The wheat will just have to stay behind and inherit the earth.Alot like the days of Noah when the weeds were taken away by the flood and Noah was left.

 

Mathew 13

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

You are correct that the weeds/tares are taken out first.  They are not caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye and will not ever be with the Lord.  The rapture is found in connection with the rest of the dead resurrection at the end of the thousand years.  Those who are alive and remain are caught up and changed.

Looking forward to being left behind.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I am not trying to deny anything.  

 I will say I don't care what the Jewish understanding was, as they didn't even understand the Messiah was walking amongst them. So, as for their understanding as being something I would stand upon rather than what is written, that's a no go for me.    

I am not saying Lazarus wasn't really dead, I am saying he wasn't really dead for 4 days, maybe not even 3, and if pressed to guess I would say 2 at the max but wouldn't be surprised if he was only DEAD from the time Jesus said he was until the time he was told to come forth, but AGAIN, I don't know.  All of this is just guessing. 

All we can be sure of is

he had a sickness that was NOT unto death yet was buried, and Jesus told him to come out and he did, and it was to the glory of God as it was supposed to be. 

What am I missing?  

 

 

So much weeping over a nap.  You may be as confused as the disciples.  Jesus said to them, "Lazarus is asleep and I go to wake him up."  They say, "Lord if he sleep, he shall do well."  Jesus then clarifies the situation for them and maybe for you.  Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him

Did you miss the part about Lazarus is dead?

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

OK.

4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.


39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always:

but because of the people which stand by I said it,

that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


45Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.


Not sure how you see that as MY OWN THINKING...Just what I see written, is what I believe.  

He told them what was truly happening, they didn't get it, so He said it in a way  they could understand, and YET what He originally said turned out to be the truth.  And

Did Lazarus STINK?  No one mentioned it.  So, was HE DEAD that entire time?  We don't know.  But we do know that just like people today 'seem dead' they are revived.

BUT we have to ask ourselves 

what was the POINT?

AND does any of that change THEM SEEING THE GLORY OF GOD?  no.  

MANY OF THE JEWS BELIEVED ON HIM

Hopefully, even if we don't agree, it will clear up if it is my thinking or what is written as to what is being put forth

 

In the Jewish understanding, it was after the third day that the spirit left the body.  Jesus waited until the fourth day so that many might see the glory of God and believe.  If he was just disturbing a long nap there is no glory in that.  

Why are you trying to deny a miracle?   Are you trying to make a point of once to die and that is all and therefore Lazarus was not really dead?  Consider Hebrews 11:  35 Women received their dead raised to life again.  What happened to them?

On 4/18/2023 at 2:21 AM, DeighAnn said:

Yes, the bible DOES SAY. 

 They weren't LIKE LAZARUS in which 

3Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.


BUT

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And WE DO KNOW THAT THEY ALSO FOLLOW GODS LAWS

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:27 KJV

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Ephesians 4:8 KJV


So, for those who just BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN, and don't have some DOCTRINE that TELLS THEM what they MAY and what they MAY NOT BELIEVE, the BIBLE does tell us what happened.  


And NO THAT ISN'T WHAT JESUS TOLD JOHN ABOUT THE FIRST RESURRECTION.  That is what PRE TRIB DEMANDS, not the words of God.  


Don't you know that ABRAHAM was raised up THROUGH FAITH when he died?  Do you remember the mount of transfiguration?  WHERE do you think THEY CAME FROM?  

You might want to take another look at the story of Lazarus.

12 His disciples replied, “Lord if he is sleeping, he will get better.” 13They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14 So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

After he had been in the grave for four days and decaying Jesus came.

John 11: 

43 After Jesus had said this, He called out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”

44 The man who had been dead came out with his hands and feet bound in strips of linen, and his face wrapped in a cloth.e

“Unwrap him and let him go,” Jesus told them.

There are many throughout the Bible who have been raised to life and there are many today that are being raised from the dead and have died again.  Death is certain and judgment is to follow. 

Consider the scripture: IITimothy 2: 16But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

These are the words of Jesus said to John; Rev. 20:

4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Why do you say that he did not say this?

One last thing.  Eph. 4: 17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.

Do not turn away from the revealed Word of God in favor of your own thinking.

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And the graves were opened, and He led the captivity captive when He ascended. 

How is THAT not a resurrection? 

Graves were opened and many came to life from the dead.  The Bible does not say what happened to them after that.  As the disciples watched Jesus go into heaven there is no mention of anyone else with Him.

In Revelation, Jesus told John about the first resurrection is at the beginning of the millennium.  Adding a resurrection or adding to the record leans into the curse.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Those that are sealed are redeemed from the earth before the fifth seal. To understand this you would need to understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. The 144,000 are the first fruits of a rapture that happens at the 6th seal. The rapture happens at the 6th seal and the 1st fruits happen before the fifth seal. But you need a little wisdom to understand this.

I am still trying to understand how you have found or created a resurrection that would include all of the dead in Christ at that point.  It is absolutely bible truth that the first resurrection is at the beginning of the millennium.  Only those listed are raised.  They do not ascend to heaven.  They are being raised to reign.  These things being true and recorded in the Word of God will not allow any rapture before the beginning of the millennium.  Wisdom is obeying the Lord and not adding stuff to what He said not to add to.

21 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Upon Salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, by his indwelling.  We do not need to have a seal put on our foreheads.  Can you give examples where any believers over the past 2000 years have received this seal on their foreheads.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I am just looking at the text of Rev. 7 and Rev. 9 and the command not to hurt those that have the seal of God.  Being protected by the command of God is more likely than a rapture.  That is true without a resurrection of the dead in Christ being raised first there will not be a rapture.  That resurrection happens at the end of the thousand years.

The warning of the curse is clear do not add or take away.  

Rev. 22:18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Those that are sealed in Revelation 7 do not go through the wrath of God. If you understood Revelation you would understand that they are sealed earlier in the seals and are raptured to heaven before the great multitude is in heaven. The 144,000 that are sealed are the first fruits of the harvest at occurs at the 6th seal. Not a chance you understand this as you are missing the easy stuff.

The problem arises after you add to the writings of this book that you also must take away from what the revelation says clearly to make it fit a narrative.  Take a close look at these texts.

Rev7: 

God's People will Be Preserved

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev.9: 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These texts clearly give the means of God's deliverance for His people.  Everyone who does not have the seal of God will be harmed.  Those with the seal of God are not raptured but they are protected from the wrath of God by this command, do not harm them.

There will be believers present that on the earth if this were not true there would not be any tribulation martyrs.  Martyrs are the result of satans rage.  They are not protected by the seal of God from this but they will be rewarded.

Our narratives are different because I see God protecting His people from Wrath and you seem to believe that they are taken up to be protected.  Did Jesus teach that the tares would be taken out first?  

Matt. 13: 

24Jesus put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.

27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Who are the ones taken out first