BlueMinou

Dear brothers and sisters, fellow christians and non-christians,

God bless you. What is troubling you this past week as we soon head into the Lord's Day this upcoming Sunday and begin a new week?

Anyone is welcome. The Lord Our God Jesus Christ never turned anyone away with a troubled heart. 

How can I pray for you? Submit your prayer requests here or PM me. Only tell me what you feel confortable disclosing. God bless,

- BM.

On 2017-08-27 at 11:43 AM, LPTSTR said:

Hi!

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

What if original reason why I first came to God was not because I knew about my sinfulness and wanted forgiveness but because I seeked supernatural help with finding wife? Does that mean that God used this difficulty of my life to draw me or is there any possibility that I came with my own initiative and that God has not actually drawn me?

In other words if I came to God for wrong reasons, can I assume that I have been drawn by God?

Brother, God's always been waiting for you all his life(God is the one true living God. There are none other but him). Run to your father through Jesus Christ that loves you as an adopted prodigal son. God bless.

According to Once Saved, Always Saved, an evangelical protestant like me who converts to Roman Catholicism is still saved because, as Behold said, " Salvation does not depend on your behavior,   It only depends on you being forgiven." 

So, someone can convert to Islam to avoid islamic persecution; Or someone could give in to the world in their professions and work in an abortion clinic, or someone could fornicate because they just give in to temptation for having blue balls all the time, and someone could steal in order to save money, or someone could become a homosexual and marry. The Anglican Church in USA and Canada bless homosexuals and have gay-ordained clergy. According to Once Saved, Always saved, at one point in your life, you could give in to your anger and murder someone by taking the law into your own hands (say, for example. getting revenge on your enemy for doing something unjust to you or your loved ones). You could go to a hindu temple and worship a hindu deity, because OSAS. End of story according to this logic. Someone can't lose their salvation. Living a life displeasing to the Lord won't matter because the blood of Jesus covers you---you have imputed righteousness. It's imputed. You're sealed. 

According to Baptism not playing a role with salvation and only being a symbolic act, you should be able to take communion in all the protestant churches without having actually been baptized. And you can ignore Paul's warning to not treat the Lord's Supper with respect expecting no judgement to come upon you if you disrespect it, because according to people in here, The Lord already forgave you of all your future sins. You're already justified. And being already justified, you could do all these things I've said. Who are you, fellow christian, to judge a christian who does it. They're already saved and me the requirements. 

So who are you to judge me if I become a Roman Catholic. I'm already saved, and once saved, always saved. There is nothing I can do to snatch me out of the enemy's hand and separate me from the Love of God. 

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

They knew which books were inspired.  The RCC did not sit in judgment and decide that.   You underestimate what early Christians knew and didn't know.   Peter tells us that Paul's letters are Scripture. Paul quoted from Luke and called it Scripture, and we know that Luke drew from Matthew and Mark.   There is a lot of historical data that indicates that early Christians already knew which books were inspired and which were not.

The Bible does not command us to derive our doctrine from men.  The Bible appeals to itself as the book we should study and meditate upon.  It holds nothing higher than itself.   The Bible says that God honors His word above his own Name.  The Bible is the only source of doctrine for true Christians.  

Roman Catholics appeal to men, creeds, councils, priests, traditions and their pope.   But followers of Jesus  appeal to Scripture alone.

You said "They knew which books were inspired." Who are "They"? 

You said "The RCC did not sit in judgement and decide that." So according to you, how was the canon of the New Testament decided? By whom if you don't think the Orthodox, catholic church did(Which includes the Eastern Orthodox Church as well). 

You said "Peter tells us that Paul's letters are Scriptural. Paul quoted from Luke and called it Scripture." So, show us where in the Bible is tells us that. 

How do you know Luke drew from Matthew and Mark. Where in the Bible did you learn of that---or perhaps you learned that from a tradition handed down to us that teaches that. 

What is this so-called historical data you refer to that says the early christians knew which books were inspired and which weren't? Who were these so-called christians and what specific time are you referring to?

You said The Bible does not command us to derive our doctrine from men and The Bible is the only source of doctrine for true Christians, but Paul said " So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thessalonians 2:15). 

You said  "followers of Jesus  appeal to Scripture alone" but Paul, as above, said differently. Paul also said " the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." Nowhere does the Bible teach to appeal to the New Testament alone. In fact, the New Testament as we have it didn't exist at the time of Paul and was not considered scripture. Scripture was referred to as the Old Testament writings at the time of Paul. 

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It is meaningless to me.  The Bible is the final arbiter in all matters of Christian faith and practice.

It is absolutely absurd to dismiss the Nicene Creed as meaningless. Are you going to dismiss the Apostle's Creed as meaningless as well? 

8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

It is meaningless to me.  The Bible is the final arbiter in all matters of Christian faith and practice.

You should care about the Nicene Creed---and the Apostles Creed too. 

What about the decades in the Early Church when there was no written New Testament as we have it today. How do you know which books would be inspired and which wouldn't be when there was no written New Testament at first?

Where in the Bible does it say the written New Testament is the final arbiter in all matters of faith and practice?

19 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You can be a Roman Catholic or a Christian you cannot be both.  Roman Catholicism is outside true, biblical Christianity.  It has no part in Christ. It is a tool of Satan and has led many, many people to Hell. It is anathema. 

The blood of Jesus is what perfects us, per Heb. 10.   It is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that purifies us and makes us holy.  Baptism cannot do what the blood of Jesus has already done.

 

I haven't even begun to discuss what the bible or catholicism has to say about the blood of Jesus--or The Eastern Orthodox Church says as well.

You do know that The Eastern Orthodox Church is also catholic, don't you?

Do you accuse the Nicene Creed of being in error? "One baptism for the forgiveness of sins." 

Let's see what you have to say. What is in error about the Nicene Creed, or do you accept it as a statement of the christian faith?

I'd like to have a discussion without anyone being judgemental or accusing one another in anger, if that is alright with people here. 

1 hour ago, Behold said:

BM, you've already blown your cover.

You've already exposed yourself with your water theology.

Want me to cut and paste it?........Or is there a need for that at this point?

Dont you recall that you just posted that water saves us?

Want to deny it now?, or SPIN IT?

So, really, isn't it time for some honesty, or is that not something you are familiar with???

LOL, you talk as if Baptismal Regeneration is a heresy; It isn't. It's even included in the Nicene Faith. "One baptism for the forgiveness of sins." Are you telling me that the Nicene Creed is unchristian and in error? I'm not going to judge you, but I do question your beliefs if you're going to call the Nicene Creed into error. We should really start a new thread about why you think the Nicene Creed is in error if you want to go that route. 

This discussion is increasingly turning hostile, which is not my intention. 

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

It's either the blood of Jesus or baptism.   You can be a Christian or you can be a Catholic. But no one can be both.   It's up to you.

You can be catholic and christian. Catholic means "universal" and also includes the Eastern Orthodox Church as well, among others too that I haven't listed. So, you can be both. 

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

It's either the blood of Jesus or baptism.   You can be a Christian or you can be a Catholic. But no one can be both.   It's up to you.

You can be both catholic and christian. It is both the blood of Jesus as well as baptism in the name of Jesus, not only blood only. 

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

If you want to know what the RCC REALLY thinks about Bible-believing Christians, just read the Jesuit Oath especially the highlighted part:

I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola, in the pontification of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's Vice-Regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical Kings, Princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments, and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Churches of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding, I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they entrust me, and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever; but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ.

That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centres of civilisation of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things, whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex nor condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infants' heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honour, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus.

In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false, or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly be opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth, and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the Church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit

 

Was that written before Vatican II? Catholic Church teaches that Protestants are separated bretheren and that the ills of the Protestant Reformation are not a fault of their own I think. And did the Magisterim of the Church infallibly define that statement as a statement of faith, or was it just something the Jesuits created themselves as a statement of oath for their own beliefs? 

Now let's get back on topic, OSAS is a fallacy. And I demonstrated Bible verses that show it is as even historical christian documents attest that Baptism plays a role in the salvation of the christian and the forgiveness of their sins. Not once did I ever say that the blood of Jesus plays no role in the salvation of the christian. The blood of Jesus and Baptism are both related to the death of Jesus and both play a role in the salvation of a christian. 

9 minutes ago, Behold said:

The "Catholic cult", denies justification by faith, and their "councils" and their true theology states that if you believe that "faith is counted as Righteousness without works",

 

 

Catholics affirm what the Bible literally says, that we are saved by faith. Once again, you seem to lack understanding what they teach. 

12 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

My my authority comes from the Word of God.  I trample underfoot all creeds of the RCC.  I stand on the Bible, not some Christless cult like the RCC.  Mark 16:16 doesn't teach salvation is through baptism.  That is a false doctrine and a really sloppy interpretation of that verse.   And when we examine everything about salvation that is in the NT, we see that salvation is in Jesus alone.  Salvation is Jesus + 0

And the Word Of God says in  there are those who  "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). So, essentially you are your own pope who determines what is biblical truth and what isn't, right. How does that work out with another denomination that claims you are in error. Anglicans, for example, adhere to the belief that infants can be baptized. 

Ah, but Catholics they do have an assurance of salvation, but not one that has infallible certitude. They also teach salvation by grace. You seem to have a lack of understanding about what catholics actually teach. If you still don't understand what the difference is, it just comes to show how very little you understand either their theology or what they actually teach. 

16 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

If baptism were necessary for salvation, it would be mentioned in every place that the Bible mentions how we are saved.   People who are trusting baptism are not Christians.

By whose authority do you say this, your own? Your very own interpretation disagrees with what the Bible says as well as this ancient christian creed: 

"  we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sin"- Nicene Creed. 

I have shown you examples in the Bible, and now I have shown you an ancient christian creed that supports this teaching. 

Behold,

Jesus our Lord said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16)." 

Show me where in the written New Testament where it says that Baptism doesn't save you and is only symbolic. 

11 hours ago, Teditis said:

Hebrews 10:1-18English Standard Version (ESV)

Christ's Sacrifice Once for All

10 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ[a] came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
    but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you have taken no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
    as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
    after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
    and write them on their minds,”

17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

(Biblegateway.com)

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

And let's not forget Hebrews 6:

"..Who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

11 hours ago, TehMill said:

Hebrews is choc with eternal security scriptures

Hebrews 10:36 says "You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised."

And

"But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back. But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved."

Hebrews 10 is very clear that one needs to persevere to the end. Jesus himself said "But one who stands firm to the end will be saved."(Matthew 24:13).

11 hours ago, TehMill said:

just to complete what you took away from prophecy

the quote you mentioned says "if we deny him, he'll deny us."

That is proof right there that the doctrine of "once saved, always saved is incorrect."

The quote "If we believe not He remaineth faithful, He cannot deny Himself" says that he will remain faithful and that he cannot deny himself; This is no different than the parable of the prodigal son or the story of Hosea remaining faithful to his adulterous wife. The quote says that there is a condition for him to deny us---a situation with which we deny Jesus. Nail in the coffin for demonstrating that OSAS is fallacy.

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I believe I have heard better advice... why put in your head in that which is shown to be wrong by it's
very own belief system where man is relied upon as much as God   Jesus succinctly stated

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
KJV
Your catholic heretical papacy stops way short from ever getting here and perverts the way for multitudes...
Love, Steven

 

I'm not a catholic, nor ever was, nor do I regularly attend mass. I don't attend mass.

If you're going to persuade catholics (and those protestants such as myself who are investigating catholicism) that catholicism is in error, isn't it wise to be as knowledgeable about it as one can? For example, I read a lot about how people on here feel and perceive catholic beliefs, but upon investigating, no one seems to know very well why catholics believe the things they do, or where they get their teachings from in the bible, and so on. People often say in protestant circles how can priests and bishops forgive sins when only Jesus can do that but in the bible, Jesus did give authority to his apostles to forgive sins. That is just one example. 

Isn't it interesting that The Eastern Orthodox Church is also catholic? Did you know that? The Eastern Orthodox Church can also trace their lineage back to the apostles because of their line of succession of bishops throughout history.

1 hour ago, woundeddog said:

If you get Baptized by a Roman Catholic Priest, you are Roman Catholic---- now think about this~~ who Baptized Jesus?

John, the Baptist-----so what does that make Jesus????

I recommend that you'll need to read up on what Catholics actually teach with regards to this. God bless.

55 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

If you get Baptized by a Roman Catholic Priest, you are Roman Catholic---- now think about this~~ who Baptized Jesus?

John, the Baptist-----so what does that make Jesus????

"I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."

- John The Baptist.

"And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” 

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 

Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Acts 19:3-5

The written New Testament clearly tells us that those baptized under John were not baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus---and were then baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus。。

28 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

1 John 2:27 says the anointing teaches you all things and you have no need for anyone to teach you. The spirit of God gives us understanding of the text. Of course bible teachers are good. And can help us to understand faster. I like the Catholic church but don't agree you need the Catholic church to give you understanding..

We have 30,000+ denominations that are not of the same mind on essential issues. The Catholic Church is not divided in their beliefs. God is not a God of dissention and division.

Consider this: The Catholic Church is the church that Jesus established; It is a historical fact. Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against it; Paul himself claimed it was the pillar of truth. The Bible is a Catholic book, put together by catholic bishops with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.(As I understand it; I'd need to review what the Catholic Church teaches about this just to be sure. I'm trying to recall this by memory). 

Simply, if we can trust the Catholic Church to put together the New Testament and the Bible as we have it, it is safe to trust them to be guided by the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. After all, the bishops are the successors of the apostles.

Here is something to consider:

Luther, Calvin, Wycliff condemned contraception in unison with the Roman Catholic Church. Yet today, most, if not all, protestant churches allow contraception and accept it. Doesn't that raise a red flag and alarm you in the slightest?

25 minutes ago, Behold said:

You think that the city water supply saves a soul?

Your theology is an insult to the Blood of Christ that was shed to save us.

Maybe you need to speak to the "other" thief on the cross who Jesus took to paradise with Him, and never baptized this person in water.

Maybe you need to learn that the teaching of "baptismal regeneration" is a lie from hell, is a Blood Atonement denying blasphemy, and its taught by a cult that is no better.

So, now i understand why you never talk about the Cross or the blood of Christ or being born again, with regards to REDEMPTION..... You actually think that the water from the city water supply, that ither sprinked you or covered your face has some mystical power to save you.

Thats truly unfortunate theology, and its truly not the way that God saves and redeems a soul.

Behold,

I have never said God is limited to Baptism only; Neither has the Catholic Church(but I sense this fact escaped you because of ignorance). The Catholic Church has always taught that the thief was saved and has always taught that Baptism is the normal means to received into the Church. 

The new testament literally says "Baptism saves you" (1 Peter 3:21). Are you disagreeing with Peter? We are baptized into Christ's death(Romans 6:3) for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Jesus commands people to be baptized(Matt 28:19) and to be born again, one needs to be baptized(John 3:5). 

Baptismal Regeneration is not only biblical, it's christian and a teaching taught by Jesus himself and commanded to be observed.

27 minutes ago, Behold said:

You are obviously trusting in works (abiding) (enduring) (taking communion) (confession), as the way to keep yourself saved.

Instead, trust in the one who died for you, put yourself in His Grace,  as once you finally do that, you wont have to continue to both teach Galatians 1:8 "works" as salvation, as well as try to save yourself by y0ur works, which by the way, isnt possible.

You keep insisting that striving to walk by the Spirit and not gratify the flesh somehow earns salvation. It doesn't; I don't believe The Catholic faith teaches that.

Baptism is the means to be reborn again, yet by choosing to be baptized, you aren't earning salvation. Baptism is merely, by faith, obeying a command from the Lord. 

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

Had you consulted Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, you would have discovered that the Hebrew word which was translated as "evil" actually means calamities.  And God certainly creates all kinds of natural calamities.

As to associating evil with God, please note (James 1:13; 1 John 1:5): Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:...This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Ah, but I do know about Strong's---I have kjv with Strong on my iphone and used it frequently for years. I knew that the Isaiah 45:7 was referring to calamity and not moral evil. 

I'm glad that we can agree that we need an authority, something or someone to help us interpret scripture for us.