Hoddie

Yes, you are correct, the Church that Jesus founded, The Holy Catholic Church. If you beleive Jesus did not, who do you say did, and when? I can tell you who started all of the Protestant sects, and when they came into exsistence starting in the 16th c. if you'd like. So is it your beleif that the Church which Jesus Christ founded is an "invisible church"? If so, in Matt. 18:17-18, it say's...."And if he refuse to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuse to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven." Could you Please show me how anyone can appeal to an "invisible church"? As for you Bible Only (sola scriptura) believers, in order to satisfy the word of GOD in these verses, to which Church would you go if you lived in 100, or 300, or 700, or 1000, or 1400 A.D.? And in 1Cor. 12:28 it say's..... "And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, power of administration, and the speaking of various tongues." Could you explain to me how could any of these members of Christs Church be invisible? How could they communicate? How could the 'power of administration' govern an invisible Church? In 1Tim. 3:15 it also say's...... "if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." Of which Church is St Paul speaking in this verse? How could it be an "invisible" Church? 　 Peace

Basically? You mean for the most part, but not completely? Interesting. So let me ask you something else Warrior. If God was capable of using thousands of sinners to infallibly communicate infallible truth, then, so that the Church could see it as the truth, which is the Bread of Life, which is Christ himself and all the teachings, if God could do it then, with fallible sinners, like Peter and Paul and John and Matthew, couldn't He still do it? In other words, certainly God is capable, wouldn't you agree? If you look around at how the Church spreads throughout the world, do you suppose that Jesus would say, "Well, once I give the Church this infallible scripture, there really is no need anymore for infallible interpretations of scripture. The Church can hold together just with the infallible Bible." Peace

Intersting statement Rusty. As Erza stated, "there is no denying that there are significant differences in how they interpret Scripture." Now if I were to go back in the archives of this forum I would find many disagreements/interpretations of Scripture among the non-Catholics, maybe even between Erza and yourself. So my question to you is..... Who among the all non-Catholic, sola scripturists, Bible Only beleivers within this forum are speaking and spreading the truth, and whom is not? You, Erza, Haz, ect. ect. ? Peace

Proven incorrect back on page 10. Sorry. Almost all of them??? Who determines the ones that dont? Okay..... without any central authority within Protestantism, who determines which of the tens of thousands different Protestant//Non-Denominational sects interprets Scripture correctly and who does not? Are we to just take your word for it, or do you have something to back up your claims? FYI....Within the Catholic Church ... Canonical rites, which are of equal dignity, enjoy the same rights, and are under the same obligations. Although the particular churches possess their own hierarchy, differ in liturgical and ecclesiastical discipline, and possess their own spiritual heritage, they are all entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in the Primacy. Something you have failed to do And which one of the thousands upon thousands of different Protestant/Bible Only churches is closest to the New Testament church pattern? Yours? The one across the street or down the block from yours? 　 Peace

If you beleive this to be true, back it up! You've been proven wrong so many times in the past Haz, your creditability is lacking if non-existence! Which is in its self..... unbiblical. (sola scriptura) 　 Peace

Could you give a list of who actually is and is not? Just because some church has the word 'catholic' in their name does not mean they are Catholic! Check out my last post to Haz. And by who's or what authority determines who is a true Christian, and who is not? On the same note, by who's or what authority determines which 'true Christian' churches have the unity of the Spirit and who does not? You being a Bible Only beleiver, could you show the Book Chapter and verse or verses that states this? Peace

Wrong again Haz..... there are Billions of Catholics world wide. Actually 1.2 Billion, not millions. There is only one Catholic Church in communion with Rome and its bishop, the Pope. Anyone who belongs to a Christian group that is not in union with the Pope is not part of the Church founded by Christ. The Eastern Orthodox do, however, have valid sacraments because of their linage of apostolic succession. But since the great schism of 1054 they do not recognize the authority of the Pope and therefore lack the fullness of Christ's Church. In the future Haz, it would behoove you to get your information from an official Catholic site instead of an anti-Catholic site to save yourself the embarrasment of being corrected so often reguarding Catholicism. Peace __________________

If you wish to take it upon yourself and address my post to warrior, why don't you address the first two questions in the post I put forth to him as well? Then I will show your errors.

Then how come the tens of thousands different Protestant/non-Denominational/non-Catholic churches do not interpret Scripture the same? You call that unified? I call that complete chaos, something the Holy Spirit is incapable of!

So are you claiming Erza that all these various distinctive groups proclaim and teach from the bible exactly the same? If so.... prove it. If that were the case, why do all these various Churches have different names? I looked up the various churches you listed in my city alone, and this is what I came up with by just going online, excluding the Yellow Pages. 1.Lutheran: 15 differnt churches, with name as, Messiah Lutheran church Missouri Synod, Peace Lutheran, Immanual Lutheran, Christ Lutheran, to name a few. Show me where these churches are in full communion with each other. 2.Presbyterian: 8 different churches. 1.First Presbysterian, 2.John Knox Presbyterian, 3.Evergreen Presbysterian, 4.Outward Presbytreian. to name a few. 3.Angilican. Three different churches. St Pauls Episcopal, Prince of Peace Episcopal, Angilican Church. 4. Methodist; Twenty one in all. 1.Free Methodist, 2. Morningside Methodist. 3. First United Methodist. (ps. you listed methodist twice) 5. Pentecostal. Five in all. 1.Harvest Time Pentecostal church. 2. Abundant Life Pentecostal. 3. Landmark United Pentecostal. To name a few. 5. Baptist: Forty five in all. 1. Bethal Baptist. 2. Skyline Baptist. 3. Calvary Baptist. To name a few. 6. Mennonite: Nineteen in all. 1. Western Mennonite. 2. First Mennonite. To name a few. 7. Church of God: Thirty one in all. 1. Oak Park Church of God. 2. State St. CoG. To name a few. 8. Church of Christ. Thirty seven in all. 1. Community Church of Christ. 2. Market St. Church of Christ. 3. All Believers Church of Christ. To name a few. 9. Seventh Day Adventist: Seven in all. 9. Reformed churches. Five in all. 1. Gracious Cross Reformed. 2. Immanual's Reformed. To name a couple. 10. Bible Churches. Thirty in all. 1. Bible Center Fellowship. 2. Emmanual Bible church. 3. Kingwood Bible Church. To name a few. Earlier when I stated tere were 150 different Protestant/ non-Denominational churches in my city was a mistake, there are Over 231! Now you tell me Erza, of all these various churches, is it your belief they all teach and interpret Scripture exactly the same? Is it your belief that all these various churches are in full communion with each other? If so, show me where the authority lies. If you cannot, you must admit that they are all distinct from each other. So therefore I stand behind what I posted earlier. If you were to mutiply the differnt non-Catholic, Protestant, Non-Denominational churches in every City, Town,Village, worlwide, the number "would" be in the many tens of thousands! So show me where the unity is in that! Untill you can prove otherwise, don't try and tell me...... "Thats not how it works." Peace

Hey, whats the big deal, they were simple yes or no questions

Once again Haz, you are trying to use your "Cafeteria Christianity" to make a point. Others may buy into it, but I am not. To get the full meaning of Jn.17:11 you must include the previous ten verses. In his Last Supper discourse Jesus speaks of his glory and the glory of his Father. What is this glory? It is the cross which Jesus speaks of here. How does the cross reveal his glory? In the cross God reveals the breadth of his great love for sinners and the power of redemption which cancels the debt of sin and reverses the curse of our condemnation. Jesus gave his Father the supreme honor and glory through his obedience and willingness to go to the cross. The greatest honor, trust, and love any person can give one's leader is through his obedience even to the point of sacrificing his own life. In warfare the greatest honor belongs not to those who survive but to those who give the supreme sacrifice of their own lives for their fellow countrymen. Jesus also speaks of the Father bringing glory to the Son through the great mystery of the Incarnation and Cross of Christ. God the Father gave us his only begotten Son for our redemption and deliverance from slavery to sin and death. There is no greater proof of God's love for each and every person on the face of the earth than the Cross of Jesus Christ. In the cross we see a new way of love — a love that is unconditional, sacrificial and generous beyond comprehension. Jesus also speaks of eternal life. What is eternal life? It is more than simply endless time. Science today looks for ways to extend the duration of life; but that doesn't necessarily make life better for us here. Eternal life is qualitative more than quantitative. To have eternal life is to have the life of God within us. When we possess eternal life we experience here and now something of God's majesty, his peace, joy and love and the holiness which characterizes the life of God. Jesus also speaks of the knowledge of God. Jesus tells his disciples that they can know the only true God. Knowledge of God is not simply limited to knowing something about God, but we can know God personally. The essence of Christianity, and what makes it distinct from Judaism and other religions, is the knowledge of God as our Father. Jesus makes it possible for each of us to personally know God as our Father. To see Jesus is to see what God is like. In Jesus we see the perfect love of God -- a God who cares intensely and who yearns over men and women, loving them to the point of laying down his life for them upon the Cross. Jesus is the revelation of God -- a God who loves us completely, unconditionally and perfectly. As for Jn.17:22, goes Haz, again you must include verses 20,21,23-26 with verse 22 to get the full gist of it. On the eve of his sacrifice, when Jesus celebrated his last supper with his apostles, he prayed for their unity and for the unity of all who would believe in him and become his disciples. God desires unity for all of his people, for married couples, families, communities, and churches across every land and nation. Sadly division and strife is often the result of personal pride, sin, prejudice, and the failure to love, forgive, and reconcile. That is why prayer is so necessary, both for safeguarding unity and for healing and restoration wherever unity has been broken. Jesus knew the weakness of his disciples, their competitive spirit to see who would rank first, their dislike for Samaritans and others who were not of their own company, and the fear that would scatter them and make them deny their Lord when Jesus' enemies arrested him in the Garden of Gethsemani and nailed him to the cross on Calvary. John tells us that Jesus loved his own to the very end (John 13:1). Nothing could break nor diminish the love he had for them, not even betrayal and rejection. As disciples of Jesus we are called to love and lay down our lives for all who believe in him. If we are willing to die for our brothers and sisters in Christ, how much more should we strive to live in harmony, love, and unity with one another. Jesus' high priestly prayer at the last supper is directed towards all who will come after him and follow him as his disciples. In a special way Jesus prays here for us that as members of his body the church we would be united in one heart and mind as he and his Father are one. The unity of Jesus and his Father is a unity of mind and heart, mutal love and trust, honor and respect. Because Jesus loved us first and united us in baptism we are called to live in a unity of love. Jesus’ prayer on the eve of his sacrifice shows the great love and trust he has in his beloved disciples. He knows they would abandon him in his hour of trial, yet he entrusted to them the great task of spreading his name throughout the world and to the end of the ages. The Lord entrust us with the same mission – to make him known and loved by all. Jesus died and rose again that all might be one as he and the Father are one. 　 Peace

To answer this I'd first have to ask you...... would you admit that the Bible is infallible because the Biblical authors were given the gift of infallibility? (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude.) Would you admit all of them wrote infallible truth? Would you insist that the Bible alone is our authority because the Bible is infallible? Peace

Think so huh? Then you (or anyone else that agrees with ya) should pick up your local phone book of your area, and go to the to the Church section of the yellow pages. Add up all the different non-Catholic churches there are, then multiply that with all the Cities, Towns, and villages throughout the world and see what number you come up with. Thats not even counting the ones that arn't even listed. You know... the sects that were started by someone that received thier "online pastors certificate" and started thier own church, lets say by renting space in a school, Hall, Barn, or someones garage. After you done that,,,, get back to me with number of different non-catholic sects in your area alone. In my west coast U.S. city of 190,000 pop. there are over 150 different Protestant/Non-Denominational churches listed in the yellow pages. So much for dropping "three zeros". What do you think the number might be if I looked online? So you see Erza, your "pure baloney" theory is just that.... Baloney!

What is Christian Unity? Hmmmm.... I'll tell you what it is not. It is not the 30-50 thousand plus different Protestant/Non-Denominational sects we have today, with new ones being formed each year. Each one of these denominations are certain that they are the only group that understands God's revelation, and that no one else in the last 2,000 years has found the true teaching of Jesus. In these sects taken all together or individually, there is no unity because there is no common teaching and ruling authority to which members must submit. Hence, there is no bond of unity. All the sects together do not form one society. They differ widely and marvelously in faith, and are independent of each other. Each sect taken by itself has no unity. It would seem the members of these sects do not know what to believe, and in following the principle of private judgment they have lost the very principle of unity. In ruling they have no unity. The rule of the leaders in each sect is little respected, easily rejected, and advisory rather than a legislative, judicial and coactive power. Such must be the type of the only possible leadership or rule which is left them, for the members of each sect guide themselves, not by what the rulers say or direct, but only by their own private judgment. This is the foundation of Protestantism and renders obedience to authority, and even the very existence of authority, impossible. If each individual can judge what he is to believe, an how he is to guide himself according to those individual beliefs, how can any central authority direct individual beliefs, how can any central authority direct individual? Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is ONE BODY, AND ONE SPIRIT even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc.---Eph. 4-3 to 5-3: The Church of Christ Is and must be only ONE (Rom. 12:5, 1Cor.10:17, 12:13. I'll end this with a couple of quotes that are pertinent. "The Protestant Reformation resulted in the continuous division of churches over the interpretation of Scripture, each new denomination insisting on its own as authentic. But of course, since they all contradict each other, they can’t all be correct. The divisions continue to this day—thousands of them. If this is reformation, I’d hate to see chaos!"------Fr. Vincent Serpa And.... "There is nothing more serious than the sacrilege of schism because there is no just cause for severing the unity of the Church."------St. Augustine 　 Peace

Far as 2Tim.4:2.....The gravity of the obligation incumbent on Timothy to preach the word can be gauged from the solemn adjuration: in the presence of God, and of Christ coming as universal judge, and by his appearance and his kingly power. Patience, courage, constancy, and endurance are required despite the opposition, hostility, indifference, and defection of many to whom the truth has been preached To quote RealPresence.... "Tell me - in your own words and not by links - WHERE the Protestant Canon of Scripture came from if it was NOT from the Catholic Church. WHEN was it declared? WHO declared it? WHO had the Authority to do so?" 　 Like he and I have been asking over and over again in as many different threads to all Protestants/non-Catholics, and no one has yet to address it. Why not? 　 Peace

I am pleased to see that you agree remarriage of divorced Christians is unbiblical Matrix. However, I couldn't help but notice you saying that just because some "Bible Alone" churches beleive in it doesen't mean it's in the bible. After reading this you have me scratching my head, because back on page five, second post of this thread you are defending Sola Scriptura where you state..."Sola Scriptura is biblical." Now I gotta ask, if you and I are going to continue in our discussion, what is your stance? Do you beleive that the Bible Alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, or not? By the sounds of this last post, I'm begining to wonder. I have been paying attention Matrix, I'm just waiting for a non-deflecting straight up answer where you think you got the Canon of your bible? I am not quite sure by the wording of this sentence Matrix what you were trying to get at, please elaborate more for me to respond. 　 Peace

No you have not! What you (and plenty of other non-Catholics) have been doing is side-stepping or completely ignoring the questions. So let me put it to you by using a quote from my fellow Catholic 'Real Presence'. "Tell me - in your own words and not by links - WHERE the Protestant Canon of Scripture came from if it was NOT from the Catholic Church. WHEN was it declared? WHO declared it? WHO had the Authority to do so?" I am hoping Matrix you have the courage to break away from your fellow non-Catholic sects and answer these questions honestly. Wait a minute here Matrix! You are saying that in 1Tim.3:15 it says 'God' is the pillar and foundation of truth? Hmmm.... this is interisting because back on page six of this thread you said. "First of all, I use the AKJV Bible", remember? If you do not remember, I sure do. Well, I just so happened to actually look up what the AKJV bible says in 1Tim.3:15, and Lo and Behold it say's ..." But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the "CHURCH" of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Did you see that??? The Church! If you don't beleive me Matrix, look it up for yourself. Now, I would like to extend this to my other non-Catholic brothers and sisters. Do you agree with Matrix that it say's in 1Tim.3:15 that "God" is the Pillar and foundation of truth, or that it say's the "Church" is the Pillar and Foundation of truth? Now it would seem to the average Christian Matrix, what you are doing here is 'adding' to Gods Word by claiming something thats not in the bible.. With this being said Matrix, and me proving that this is not what Scripture say's, would you care to retract your statement? Matrix, just because you added an arrow between God and the pillar dosen't make it so. Reminds me of Martin Luther, Sorry. 　 Peace

So much for your belief of Sola Scriptura... huh? Thanks again for help exposing it's error.

And thank you Erza for admitting that all these "Personal, and Fallible" opinons and interpretations (all claiming to hold the truth, and rejecting God's true Church) of millions of differnt non-Catholics are subject subject to error. (yours included) Thank you for your support! Merry Christmas

So.... do you consider your interpretations of Scripture infallible?

So in other words, you cant find it in the bible. So if you can't Matrix, and you being a sola scripturists and all, must adimt it is unbiblical, correct? So if it is not biblical, it must be a tradition of man! (lower case t) Right? One thing I will say is that I don't ever recall seeing in Scriptue a divorced Christian being remarried by the clergy, have you? As a matter of fact... I recall Jesus commanding the complete opposite. Mk.10:9-12. And lets not forget Lk.16:18 either. As a matter of fact Matrix, I don't recall it being allowed in all of Christian history. History does show however that all Protestant denominations used to be against it including your very own reformers in the 16th c. (except for Henry the 8th) So you see, it seems that 99.9 % of all non-Catholic sects are condoning this "unbiblical" practice... mocking the very words of Jesus in the passages I provided. So guess the question is Matrix, does your church go against what Jesus taught? Did Jesus' teachings change? Dosen't Scripture tell us Jesus' Gospel cannot change? What is it? I'll tell ya what I think.... in Heb.13:8-9 it says.. "Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried away by all strange teachings." When did your church get carried away by strange teachings? Hold on now firecracker..... What happened to if it ain't in the bible it must be disguarded??? Are you saying that some things don't have to be in the bible to be practiced? I thinks that called "traditions of man"!! So what is it Matrix, is it the bible alone or not?? Now as far as the Sinners Prayer goes, and in the passages you provided, I do not see the words... " Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved. Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved.Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself.Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. AMEN." Now I'm not saying its a prayer that shouldn't be prayed, I'm just saying its not in Scripture... i.e. a tradition of man. Really? Are you saying then that sometimes traditions of man are acceptable? Wow.... what happened to Sola Scriptura?? You got me confused, are you a sola scripturists (if it aint in the bible...forget about it) or not? Then why are there thousands of Protestant/ non-Catholic sects that teach alcohol should be avoided at all costs? Whos got it right, and who does not? And let us not forget what Jesus Himself said in Matt.26:2 As far as dancing goes... where in Scripture does it say dancing with unrelated men and women is a sin, and should be avoided? Have you never danced with anyone other than your brother or sister, or your Mom and Dad for that matter? If you are married, did you never dance with him or her before you were married? If you didn't, I got a word for that... weird! Anyhoo, if that is the case, there is a dance I would definetly avoid! (Unless one is okay with marrying their relatives) Hmm..., why does the tune 'dueling banjos' come to mind? (just kiddin.) Translation............. The Altar Call, and bowing ones head during prayer "is unbiblical", (do you even have an altar in you church?) and is a tradition of man. Besides Matrix, where did I say they were of Pagan origin? Thats a non-Catholic thing. Then you being a sola scripturists should have no problem showing the Book, Chapter, and verse where it say's the New Testament interprets the Old. Or are you depending on the traditions of man? (again) Thats because I don't adhere to the unbiblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura. (Bible Alone) I beleive in the "whole" word of God... Sacred Scripture and Sacred Traditions! So I ask again, where in Scripture does it say that the 'Bible Alone' is sufficient as a sole rule of faith? Hmmm.... I'm not sure you are.(well aware) If this is what you truley beleive, then let me ask you....do you beleive the Bible canon is necessary for our salvation? Says who? It's all cool. Peace

You may have tried to explain it to me with your fallible opinion, but thats not what I asked. Back on page four, you said that the bible holds all truth, and the bible alone is all one needs.... remember? I asked you to show me using your "bible alone" where in your bible does it say God gave us the Canon, and to whom did He give it too? Now if you can't, just admit it. Thats right....... "YOU" told me. Show me where in Scripture where it shows it. You are the sola scripturists, not me. I have, and I know the history, right now I'm just getting your input. Very soon I will show you what history really does have to say about it. Where in Scripture doe it say this? Is this just your personal fallible opinion, or can you back it up? You being a sola scripturists, can you back it up with Scripture? Historical documentation? Are you going to tell me what Scripture say's is the Pillar and foundation of truth? 　 Peace

Is that right? Then maybe you can explain the fact there are over 30,000 splinters in Protestantism? There can be only one truth, and yet each splinter claims, "the Holy Spirit told me." Each claims the truth, yet each has differences with the others. Truth is one; therefore all Churches should be united in the one truth. Are we led to believe there over 30,000 Holy Spirits, each telling a protestant sect something different, or maybe one Holy Spirit giving a different truth to each? This unity you speak of Kwik does not exsist within Protestant and non-Catholic sects. Yes, I agree Kwik, but the problem lies with the father of your Reformation (Martin Luther) who thought differently. (the same teachings that many of you adhere to) It was Marthin Luther, on his own and without any authority that ripped out 7 books of the O.T. and claimed they were not Sacred Scripture. He also wanted to rip out of the Bible several N.T. booksa aswell, such as James, Hebrews, and Rev. One of the reasons that Luther ripped out books of the Old Testament is because some of those books helped to explain some Catholic doctrines. The reason why he wanted to rip out of the Bible the Book of St. James is because it contradicted his personal and heretical view about justification. said justification was by faith alone. NOWHERE does the Bible say that, so Luther added the word to Romans 3:28 in his German Translation. In fact the ONLY place in the New Testament where the words "faith alone" appear is in the Book of St. James where James says that we are "not saved by faith alone" (James 2:24). This was the reason Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James. This man was not just arrogant but evil in his desire to conform the Bible to his personal, and heretical, opinions. James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. In addition Martin Luther add to the Bible words that do not exist in the Greek extant manuscripts. When Martin Luther was confronted about why he was messing with the Bible, he replied, "Because my will is good enough." This was one arrogant person Kwik, and still you wish to adhere to these teachings! Amazing! Peace

Then explain the passages I gave in my last post