Dennis1209

42 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Very nice and thank you! The only time element I am attempting to compare to the 30 minutes of silence (so far) is the important phrase in Daniel, “within the hour.”

Of course, this is used to convey the sureness and quickness of God’s decision that He made. 
 

Here we have a shorter time element that does seem to convey a shorter time of “terrible sadness,” but it must take place and God is, unfortunately, going to do what He must do and He is not going to delay this terrible action and allow such  sadness to go on more than it has to… 

This is indeed a decision He wish He did not have to make (we have made this necessary for Him to make). 
 

It is an interesting concept that God places at the time before He takes action… It does seem to picture just how sad, unbelievable what will have to take place by the Lord against His creation. He has been sooo forgiving over the thousands of years and paid such a price for His people that “this next action” is almost too much to consider (true wrath) by God. This is something no none in the heavenly realm had or could imagine to take place. 

 

In my mind, Heaven is a constantly bustling place. I view the space of half an hour of silence as unprecedented. The magnitude never seen before in history and never again must elicit shock and awe for what is about to occur. The preparation and execution elicit silence.

I once jokingly commented Revelation 8:1 meant:

It is a proof text that men will be Raptured 30 minutes before women. That comment was irreverent and made light of the most horrific events mankind has ever or will experience.

9 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

I personally do not subscribe to a 7 year tribulation, and feel the "great tribulation" was under the siege of Titus wherein more Jews by by atrocities of their own countrymen than by the hands of the Romans, (see my post above).

Furthermore, the "great tribulation" also comes with the comment "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That "nor ever shall be" shows that time will continue for the world after this period, whereas that is not so in the eschatological view embracing a seven (great) tribulation and the end of the age with Christ's return.

 

We all have our differing eschatological, exegetical, and hermeneutical views. I view these 50₵ words scholars invented as non-core or Salvific issues. Most dedicated godly men throughout history, from the so-called early church fathers and anti-Nicene to the present, have many differing views.

There is much to learn by reading and studying the various views and interpretations. I remain rock solid, never changing my view or beliefs of the core tenets of my faith. You mentioned I once thought or believed, been there, done that several times with study. The same Holy Spirit is with us all, leading and guiding.

I could cite dozens of examples of someone drastically changing their mind, but I will use only one for brevity. In this generation, I feel that the best Christian apologist and debater about creation is Dr. Kent Hovind (a.k.a. Dr. Dino). Long story short, for most of his life, he was a pretribulationist, then suddenly, he switched and became an adamant advocate of the Sixth Seal harpazo.

I have found the following helpful in my studies:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

Peter then wrote about revelation. The statement, No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation, has been interpreted several ways: (1) Scripture should be interpreted only in context, that is, a prophecy cannot stand alone without other prophecies to aid in its understanding. (2) Scripture should not be interpreted according to one’s own individual liking. (3) Scripture cannot be correctly interpreted without the Holy Spirit. (4) The prophecies did not originate with the prophets themselves. The word epilyseōs (“interpretation,” lit., “unloosing”) and the word ginetai (“came about”) favor the fourth view. The Scriptures did not stem merely from the prophets themselves; their writings came from God. Verse 20, then, speaks not of interpretation, but of revelation, the source of the Scriptures.^[1]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks, but do any of the 5 reference verses in the OT?

So much of Revelation can be found in the OT… 

The book of Revelation chains, cites, or alludes to almost every book in the Bible, by far more than any other book in the Canon.

For Revelation 8:1, the Thompson Chain Bible has no OT references or allusions. The New Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge lists Zec. 2:13 and Hab. 2:20 as potential allusions or illustrations. It is interesting to note that both illusions are the last verse in the chapter.

The silence following the opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8:1 signifies the final judgment of the world, drawing on various Old Testament and Jewish traditions where silence is linked to divine judgment. The temple imagery in Habakkuk, Zechariah, and Zephaniah emphasizes the cosmic eschatological expectations of the writers. The concept of silence before significant events, such as the end of history and judgment, is highlighted in different texts like Genesis, Exodus, and Wisdom. The duration of "about a half hour" in Revelation 8:1 symbolizes the suddenness and unexpectedness of the decreed judgment, akin to the reaction of Daniel in the Book of Daniel. Overall, the silence in Revelation 8:1 conveys the awe and anticipation surrounding the impending divine judgment.¹

¹Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Gotcha!  And the one world religion would be sure to deny the simplicity in Christ, that is, that we must work to earn good standing before God. 

If you think about it . . . lets say someone turns AI loose to create this grand religion from all relevant religious source material.  It would have all the "good" elements in it, moral codes, etc. To someone who doesn't know Christ, it would be absurd for anyone not to sign onto it.  And if someone doesn't sign onto it, they certainly must be part of the evil, which is holding mankind back, right?

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)

I cannot prove it, but I have read from reputable sources that every book was fed into AI. Every social media post is fed into it to gain knowledge and intelligence. Now, with quantum computing, that task is easily obtainable.

I hear that all the ancient literature in the Vatican vaults has also been documented and fed into AI. If true, that is incredible.

I hear more and more people thanking Mother Earth and the universe for their fortunes and blessings. This climate change initiative concerns population control, income, and Mother Earth worship.

AI technology has, or will shortly, learn and expand independently without human intervention. Few dispute the concerns about the possibility of this technology becoming self-aware or conscious and making decisions and taking actions on its own, bypassing humans. Machines and AI cannot possess morals, values, and compassion.

As alluded to in biblical scripture, evil spirits can possess people, animals, geographical places, and things. I can easily envision the use and role of AI for global control, as well as the image of the Beast.

Suppose you and I were having this conversation 30-40-50 years ago. What would your thoughts be, and how would you respond? What if I posted my thoughts on a Christian website forum back then (which I did)? Rejected, conspiracy theory, take your meds.

Today, things and technology are progressing faster than an army of those watching can keep track of and report on. Never in history, not since, are becoming a regular mantra on the news—tick, tick, tick.

“The world is not falling into pieces; the pieces are falling in place.” Jan Markell, Olive Tree Ministries

On 4/30/2024 at 9:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

In Revelation there is a period of 30 minutes of silence. 
 

What is this all about?

There are at least five views on this 30-minute silence. To briefly summarize and condense the majority view:

The dramatic pause is “to symbolize the awe and dread with which the heavenly hosts await the events about to happen.^[1]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Amen! (to what you stated in red)  Yes - relationship with Christ and what He's already done!  

As to the One World Religion - is that the gist of it?  I wasn't aware of all that, but it makes sense if true - bring all the "do" religions under one umbrella --> anything to deny that there's zero work we can do for our eternal salvation in Christ! (and just believe/receive what He's already done for us) 

I do not have any divine revelations or inside knowledge. I believe we are living at the close of this final dispensation, or the end of this age. If true, we should see how prophetic scriptures align and manifest. Everything in the Bible about the terminal generation is not coming; it is now here.

How many historical and current wars and atrocities have been waged in the name of religion? The Bible infers there will be a one-world government and a global religion. It is easy to see the global government coming about, and they are not hiding it.

For years, I suspected the global religion to be akin to something like Chrislam, but it still could be, as there is a Vatican push for it. There is something new to the mix I never considered as time passes. Even the apostle Paul debated the subject with philosophers in Athens, Greece. The quest and worship of higher powers, knowledge, and intelligence. Is this starting to ring any bells?

Some can connect the image of the Beast and artificial intelligence (AI). However God’s plans and purposes unfold, we are witnessing it.

Exciting times, eh?

Religion is a complex concept with no single definition due to its diverse manifestations across cultures. Scholars identify seven common characteristics shared by most religions, including stories/myths, belief in supernatural beings, use of symbols, rituals, clerics, altered states of consciousness, and evolving beliefs/practices over time. Religion is intertwined with culture and plays a vital role in preserving collective memory and identity. Despite variations, all religions share a mystical core that involves a profound connection with a transcendent reality. The study of religion involves understanding its multifaceted nature rather than reducing it to a set of universal principles or ideologies. Embracing the diversity of religions can foster mutual understanding, humility, and peace among different belief systems.¹

¹ New Testament Theology and Its Quest for Relevance: Ancient Texts and Modern Readers

This technical definition reminds me of the successful ecumenical propagation of Pope Francis and his success in bringing back the “protesters” under the umbrella of the Catholic (Universal) Church.

The “letters of agreement” were signed by the Vatican and some Muslim sects, and Abraham's commonalities were shared, leading to the One World Religion.

As we all know, Christianity is not a religion. It is faith, trust, and a personal relationship with a person, and we know who and what that Person is. 

On 5/1/2024 at 8:02 PM, Marilyn C said:

It is when the Lord comes a second time to the earth. He comes symbolically on a while horse with His angelic army also.

Horse - power,

White - light, glory.

Jesus comes in power and great glory.

Have you ever tried to contemplate what that horse symbology represents in our finite minds? Revelation is exciting to envision and try to picture in our minds; much of it is figurative and symbolic. White can symbolize several things, depending on the context.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. (Revelation 6:2)

The above is generally considered the Antichrist; he is presented in military fashion and terms, and white symbolizes peace or surrender in militaries. The rider and horse are two separate entities, as are death and hell that follow. The symbolic horse is the vehicle and means of transportation and movement. Does this horse represent mechanized military technology or some spiritual equivalent?

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Revelation 19:11)

White does not represent the universal military combat symbology of a parley, peace, pause, or surrender in this verse. A gate, or portal to the heavenly dimension, is opened; even the mode of transportation is clean and pure, as with white robes, spotless.

Some use Rev. 19:11 to say, “See, there are animals in Heaven.” High Ho, Silver away… 😊

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11) [emphasis added]

The above, Ezekiel 1:5-28, and elsewhere are heavenly descriptions of spiritual modes of transportation. If these were witnessed in modern times, would it be said, oh look, a flying horse? Or would they be referred to in contemporary lingo as UFOs or UAPs?

Are people today, by the tens of millions, getting glimpses of extra-dimensional spiritual technology for a reason and purpose, namely deception? How is spiritual warfare conducted in the spiritual realm?

Seraphim and Cherubim have four and six wings and fly, as the Bible states. These are superior in rank, duties, and power to regular messenger angles. Nowhere is it said messenger angels have wings or fly on their own. In every Biblical instance, they appear as men and sometimes with their horses and chariots.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Psalm 68:17)

And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. (2 Kings 6:17)

The angel immediately sent to Daniel was delayed for 21 days. How do you delay something spiritual traveling at the speed of thought or light? Angels have spiritual bodies; there must possibly be a form of physicality and matter manipulation in the angelic spiritual realm.

I find it telling and curious, with the new official government acknowledgment, investigations, and reports, that UFOs are real and pose a danger to national security and aviation. Of all the things they could be, they are silent about anything dimensional or spiritual.

Are these investigations by people with advanced degrees and initials after their names so stupid and blinded as to dismiss every possibility and the most logical? I think not. Or is there a hidden agenda, and everything must fit the lie of evolutionary theory to set the stage?

As I have mentioned elsewhere, panspermia is becoming a popular buzzword in scientific genetics and DNA.

To quote the late Dr. Michael Heiser, “If it sounds strange, it is probably important.”

If they still had pay phone booths, I would phone home. LOL

On 4/30/2024 at 6:43 AM, Tristen said:

This is not "truth".

When the Arab extremists responded to the declaration of statehood with terrorism, all peaceful Arabs were invited by the Jewish government to stay where they were.

There was no such thing as a "Palestinian" at the time. The "Palestinian" label was later adopted by the Arabs for purely political purposes - i.e. to give the false impression of indigeneity. In reality, the overwhelming majority of Arabs in Israel at the time migrated from the bankrupted Ottoman Empire in the late 1800s, or from Egypt in the 1920s. In the early 1800s, the land (called Palestine by the Romans) was mostly uninhabited.

 

This is a lie. Jews purchased abandoned land from the diminishing Ottoman Empire and cultivated it. Arabs then moved from the north to where there were opportunities. With a few exceptions, Jews and Arabs largely coexisted peacefully in the land for the following few decades.

The "colonial" narrative is antisemitic gaslighting. Only those unfamiliar with the facts would fall for such deception.

 

Jews accepted the two-state solution offered by the United Nations in 1947 (General Assembly Resolution 181). Arabs rejected this plan in favor of terrorism.

Prior to this, Arabs unanimously rejected the Peel Commision partition of the land between Arabs and Jews (1937). In 1993, the Arabs rejected the offering of a separate Arab state in the Oslo Accords. In 1998, the Arabs again rejected an attempt to reestablish the Oslo principles at Wye River. In 2000, Arabs rejected an offer (by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barack) to control 10% more land than was currently under Arab authority. In 2008, Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinian Authority near-total withdrawal from the West Bank, as well as the Old City part of Jerusalem. 

In all these instances, the Arabs rejected "a two state nation" in favor of intifada, or Jihad, or some other form of Holy war from this supposed "religion of peace". It is completely disingenuous (a.k.a. a demonstrable lie) to suggest that Israel have been the ones standing in the way of a "two state" solution.

In 2005, Israel forcefully removed its own people from Gaza in order to give the Arabs a mini state under their own authority. Instead of using the opportunity and billions in Aid to establish a thriving state, they used the incoming wealth to turn Gaza into a terror state against Israel.

 

Finally - something true.

 

Yes - it is completely "justifiable".

 

Sadly lacking in these protests is the demand for the Gazans to return Jewish hostages. Thereby demonstrating the innate susceptibility of these protestors to evil lies.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

 

 

You undoubtedly did your homework, Tristen; good job. Don't you love revisionist historians?

As you are aware, since May 14, 1948, Israel has tried to live in peace. The most significant and only land grant given by God aside. Israel bends over backward, conducting righteous wars far exceeding the 1949 Geneva Conventions. I need not mention the barbaric slaughters and beheading of babies, children, elderly, holocaust survivors, etc. of Islam.

There are only two types of Muslims: those who act on their beliefs and those who support them or sit on their hands, cheering them (such as a few in the US Congress and our brainwashed youth). There is no such thing as radical Islam; sure, there are those Muslims who would like to live in peace. But, if Islam is your religion, the Koran is your holy book, and the teachings of Muhammad (Hadith) are your guide. Killing Jews and Christians is their duty. Jesus died for us; Allah wants his followers to die for him. [quotes from the demonic books available upon request]

These HAMAS supporters, riots, and antisemitism make me sick as a Christian, patriot, veteran, and American.

I will omit what Samuel Clemmons observed of the desolation of people and the desolate land before the Lord restored the early and later rains in preparation for Israel's return.

As the Lord foretold, Israel would return as an undivided nation with no king, the shekel as its currency, Hebrew as their language, etc. They would take control of the mountains of Israel and the control of Jerusalem (1967). The Jews also returned under the Law and their rules of warfare:

Of all Israel's wars and skirmishes, October 7, 2023, is different, and a particular word is glaring, hērem. Israel has vowed to destroy HAMAS (H. violence). What benefit would Israel have if they stopped there? Dealing with terrorist proxy organizations is dealing with only the symptoms, not the root support and cause. The head of the snake must be decapitated.

The half-dark water is now settling and clearing up. It is now understandable to envision Isaiah 17, Jerimiah 49, Ezekiel 38, Psalm 83, etc.  

Deuteronomy 20:1-20 outlines Jewish War. The laws concerning War as outlined in the Old Testament, particularly focusing on the rules and regulations for warfare in ancient Israel. It highlights the concept of holy War, where War was seen as a necessary evil for defending God's people and advancing territorial interests. The text provides guidelines for military service exemptions, strategies for offensive War, and the treatment of enemy cities. It emphasizes the importance of divine authorization for War, the role of the Lord in battle, and the need for unwavering faith in God's protection. hērem, which involved the complete destruction of certain nations viewed as irredeemable. Overall, the Old Testament laws on War reflect a complex interplay between military strategy, religious beliefs, and divine intervention.

What are the odds? As another first, Iran launched 300+ projectiles from its soil (an act of War), and how many hit their intended target. I have been watching the news and listening for anything that mentioned "divine intervention" so far, crickets.

I would suspect the following prophecy in context, along with the overnight destruction of Damascus, Syria, maybe nearing. We shall see.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might. (Jeremiah 49:35)

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi y'all @RdJ @Dennis1209 @WilliamL @Vine Abider @Marilyn C @Michael37 @farouk and the rest. One of the most powerful tools used by the Bible to help with understanding is the TYPE. A Lamb is a TYPE of Christ, Adam and Eve are a TYPE of Christ and the Church and Hagar is a TYPE of the Law. A Type is usually a brief picture showing the overriding truth. One should not build doctrine on a Type, but one should take the lesson shown seriously. I propose THREE TYPES of a split rapture.

1. The Transfiguration of Jesus. Jesus said that some would not see death until they saw Him COMING in His Kingdom. The High Mountain shows an elevated position akin to being raptured to the clouds. Jesus appears in all His glory. Elijah speaks for the LIVING who are changed and then raptured. Moses speaks for the dead and resurrected saints. While Moses is chastised temporally his faithfulness and service are not forgotten. His body is fought for and He is in the Kingdom. But of even more import is that only THREE disciples are invited on high. NINE must remain in the valley and be overcome by a demon.

2. Abraham and Lot. The judgment of the "days of Lot" are come. Both Abraham and Lot are called righteous. 2nd Pet 2:7-9a says;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations

But Abraham is on the plain of Mamre at Hebron which means "fellowship". Hebron is about 2,500 ft above sea level. Lot was in the "well-watered plain of Jordan" the lowest point on earth. God and angels visit Abraham and he knows God's plan of judgment. Only angels visit Lot. Lot is saved but does not ascend to Hebron (fellowship). His wife had eyes for Sodom, his daughters seduced him, Lot got drunk and produced two implacable enemies of Israel and he ended in Zoar, which means "insignificant".

3. "The days of Noah". God is about to judge universally. No corner of the earth will be left uncovered by the waters of death. One man "walked with God" and was "Taken" - Enoch. Another man is also justified. He speaks for those born again for "he was PERFECT in his GENERATION" - Noah. But he must stay with the clean and unclean and later is father of a cursed one - Ham. The raven is unclean. It did not return because it found dead bodies floating and could rest and eat the dead. Enoch was "taken" - Noah, of the same line, is "left"

In conclusion we turn to what really happens, as spoken by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24:32-51. The days are like Noah's. Violence, mating with angels, and man devising ONLY evil ALL the time. The Lord speaks a Parable. Parables are for the Church only (Matt.13:10-11). The teaching is about "servants". Except for the Fig Tree, no sign is given. The "servants" do not look for events, but for a moral condition. Jesus does not come like lightening. he comes as a Thief. A Thief comes stealthily at the circadian low. He comes for what is precious. he "TAKES" and goes. What is "LEFT" had lessor value.

The word "taken" concerning those "taken" in the flood is "airoo". It means snatched violently like our sins  are taken away on the cross by God's judgment. But of the Two working the mill, the one"Taken" is "paralambano" - meaning," to take with as a well known acquaintance" Joseph "TOOK" (paralambano) Mary with to Egypt to save her from Herod's decree. Added to this, the grammar divides those "Taken" (airoo) in the flood. Verse 40 starts with "THEN". This indicates an additional event beside the flood. "The woman screamed. THEN the police came running". But most telling is verse 42. The word "Therefore" shows the conclusion of the lesson. But who is the lesson for? THOSE WHOSE LORD WAS COMING - "Your Lord"- Christians!

And so, the evidence concerning a multi-rapture with Christians taken according to their maturity and faithfulness, is much.

Wow! Your post contains so much to unpack, and I would not know where to begin, as it is all related. God’s word can have more than one interpretation, and in my opinion, they can all be correct and related.

I always wondered why Jesus had an inner circle of apostles, namely Peter, James, and John. Out of the twelve, this inner circle was the only one’s allowed to witness (perhaps that is the key by the number) the major miraculous events of raising the dead and Transfiguration.

Jesus selected only the three and took them up the mountain to a chosen spot for the Transfiguration, from Caesarea Philippi to the middle of nowhere. I believe that location was Mount Hermon, and the spot was the legendary place and cave where the Jews believed the gateway to Hell was located, and the 200 Watchers descended atop Mt. Hermon. It also had a Baal worship temple at that location. It is well documented in historical writings. Jesus poked Satan’s eye and mocked him on that spot with his defeat.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

Obviously, this Rock is Jesus, and the church is built upon Him. I think it also included the location where this is revealed. The RCC claims Peter is this rock. It is interesting to note the gates of Hell; are they keeping something in or out?

Briefly, I am in good company in my view, that Mat. 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at Jesus’s Transfiguration and ascension to Heaven—another long explanation.

As you mention, the drunken stupor patrimony of Lot with his daughters, lead to beaucoup trouble with the Moabites, Ammonites, gig-a-bites, all the bites.

Noah did not curse Ham; Noah cursed Canaan. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. (Genesis 9:25)

This is interesting but does not make sense in the context of scripture until one understands kingship and customs. It is much too long to detail, but only one explanation of several fits perfectly. If anyone is interested, I will initiate a separate thread.

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)

We know Noah was not perfect, he liked his wine and got drunk, and what did that lead to.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

Perfect, and generations (plural), implies to me his genetics (DNA) and the reason God had to drown everything with the breath of life. The spillover and consequences from Genesis 6:1-4.

The believed gateway to Hell today:

1 hour ago, farouk said:

Hi @Dennis1209 Back a bit you said you were bothered by your daughter's tattoos; so do you think you have gotten over it, yet?

I am not disparaging anyone who wants to use the largest organ of the human body as a billboard; that is their business. As a father, my worries and concerns for my children never cease.

What is one instrument that is a significant cause of the transmission of HIV, hepatitis, and a myriad of other nasties? The contaminated needle.

I need not hear about tattoo artists, precautions, sanitation, etc. Druggies have access to free unused needles everywhere. It takes a giant leap of faith to trust someone not in the health field having a person’s health and welfare in mind. If there is one inattention to detail, a careless, forgetful moment, rush, or whatever, the risk is not worth the reward. The dive I got mine in was the antithesis of a sterile environment. About my youth, stupid is what stupid does.

And that “reward” in my experience quickly faded into regret with the passage of a short time. Years ago, I intended to get my little 1” x 2” tattoo with some veteran Army buddies in 1973 removed. They did not have laser removal at the time, and based on the size and ink used, it was a little over $1,000.00 for removal. With modern laser removal, I hear tell, that if you think it hurts getting it installed, wait until the removal process.

So, no, my opinion and concern for my children have not changed. As I mentioned, if others outside of my family want to get their eyeballs permanently tattooed, go for it; it is not my concern or business.

About tattoos, I can say another thing:

1 hour ago, farouk said:

Hi @Dennis1209 I think 1 Cor. 10.32 which talks about Jews, Gentiles and the church of God is a good guide and prism through which to approach the subject.

Would you expound on that? I am not making the connection. Thanks.

This conflict goes back to the birthright of Esau (ole Red) as the rightful heir and Jacob (heel catcher) usurping by deceit the promise.

History is replete with extremists toward Israel, Gen. 3:15, Gen. 6:1-4, the Egyptian Pharaoh, Haman, Hitler, and on and on.

The Arabs claim Palestine is theirs, that they were there first, according to their holy book, the Koran, and the sayings of Mohammad, the Hadith. Esau, rather than Jacob, inherited the promised land. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The so-called Palestinian Refugees and tent city is a ruse used as a bargaining chip and sympathy card. It is too lengthy to detail that history, other than to say they could easily be absorbed in neighboring Arab countries, but they do not want them either.  

Both historical and archeological evidence supports Israel's claim to the land, and Israel was there first. Not all Jews left the land during the diaspora. The narrated official mantra and slogan of the PLO, Iran, and their proxies is to drive Israel into the sea and remember them no more. Israel agreed to their terms on several occasions, and the extremists still rejected them.

As Vine mentioned, a man with a plan is on his way, confirming a seven-year covenant with many. I have a suspicion the Abraham Accords may have a part to play. The prophecies of Psalm 83, Jerimiah 49, Isiah 17, Ezekiel 38, and many others have manifested and are ripe to occur anytime now.

I am now confident October 7, 2023, will be a prophetic date and event in remembrance.

I still maintain that, in combination, these two scriptures could be prophetic if my exegesis is correct.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Matthew 24:34) [May 14, 1948, or the 1967 Six Days War]

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. (Psalm 90:10) [average of 70-80 years]

We are there if there is any prophetic significance in combining these two verses and doing the simple math.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I promised a few words on the Covenants.

Basically there are three Covenants. Some expositors count more, but I apply Hebrews 9:18-22 strictly. A Covenant with God must be declared so and ratified in blood.
1. That with Noah. Noah, new father of all men, represented "all flesh" in the Covenant of the rainbow (Gen.9:17). It is valid as long as winter and summer exist.
2. The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham and his Seed via Isaac and Jacob (Gen.15). It is an "everlasting Covenant".
3. The Covenant of Law made ONLY with Israel (Ex.34:27). It contains "sub-Covenants" for the Priesthood, Passover and the Royal House of David

In Jeremiah 31:31-33 God promises a New Covenant. It's attributes are that will replace that of Sinai with Moses, NOT in the conditions of Law (for the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass), but in the way it is recorded. The change is not in its terms, but in a change of the Israelite. In the latter days, when Israel s ONE HOUSE again, it will replace that of Sinai. It was ratified in the blood of Jesus and is an "everlasting Covenant" (Jer.32:40)

The Church is under the Covenant of Noah. You may not eat blood. As the Lord's Kingdom over the Nations has not ye come, the Church has no business in government, so the death penalty should be supported but not called for by the Christian.

The Covenant of Promise was not made with us, but once Israel had rejected the Kingdom, and the Church become Heirs of the world, God, through very clever process, makes us SEED of Abraham but not seed of Jacob (Gal.3:29, Rom.4:13). Basically, God uses three LEGAL methods to include us in the Covenant of Promise.
1. He uses the fact that we were and are IN Christ (Jn.12:24) to make us seed of Abraham based on Christ and not on Jacob
2. He creates a "Commonwealth" of Israel. A Commonwealth gives trade privileges to another country without that country losing its sovereignty. The Christians become eligible for the Promises but without becoming an Israelite (Eph.2.11-13)
3. Adopting us. Adoption makes an outsider HEIR. We believers become Heirs to the Promises without being blood brothers of Israel

The Covenant of Law and the New Covenant of Law have nothing to do with the Church. Israel was offered FAITH which would have given them a heavenly birth, ended the matter of Law, and made them heirs to the world. But they refused it. A Covenant is not easily annulled so what you see in the last 2,700 years is simply the terms of the Covenant of Law applied to Israelites as per lawful terms within the Contract.

Any attempt by the Church to become involved in Law is a serious matter - as Galatians and Hebrews makes clear. The objection of many scholars that Jesus included the Church in the New Covenant is incorrect. Our Lord instituted the Lord's Table for the Church, and, as a second and separate move, ratified the New Covenant with His blood as per Hebrews 9. Jeremiah 31 is very clear. The New Covenant is made with ISRAEL ALONE. Jeremiah 31 tells WHEN- when Israel is ONE NATION again. And Israel is one nation again AFTER their resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and after Jesus gathers them from the "four winds" - to which ONLY Israel was scattered (Matt.24:31).

Ephesians 2:15 puts the matter to rest. God makes the New Man "OUT OF TWAIN". The "TWO" are (i) The Nations, and (ii) the Nation of Israel. God does not make a New Nation from the rest of men. He take SOME from Israel, and He takes SOME from the Gentiles. For this New Man the Law is crucified with Christ. The Law requires Israelites not to have relations with Gentiles. It is therefore THE ENEMY of the UNITY required in Ephesians 4. The New Man is a fully new creature. It has its own birth by the holy Spirit. IT does not, and cannot have a past. Ethnicity is abolished (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

I hope that gives some food for thought.

Now, that is a balance between covenant and dispensational theology if I have ever read one. Your detailed explanation would go a long way toward understanding Biblical history, prophecy, and the beliefs and conditions of the world today.

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. (Genesis 17:5) [nations-plural]

I was called out on a thread when I stated Abraham was a Gentile and not Jewish. As we know, Abraham was the father of many nations, and through Jacob [named Israel], the twelve tribes were formulated into God’s chosen people. The only thing in common with Islam and Christianity is Abraham. There cannot and will not be a divided two-state solution for Israel, dividing the land.

I will briefly say that the Muslims are deceived into believing Esau inherited the promises of Jacob and is entitled to the land. Today, that ancient hatred is manifesting into the fulfillment of end-time prophecy.  

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

There is heart death and brain death.  When your heart stops, you can be revived.  When your brain is dead, your body may be re-animated, but your spirit is dormant until it is released by physical death.  Personally, I think the evidences of Near Death Experiences are too great to ignore.  True, people have been saved after recovering from near death experiences, but I wouldn't count on that.  None of us know how much time we have left.

The Bible does not talk about NDE, and perhaps I should not comment on it either. But it seems to be a thing in some instances. I have heard many testimonies of people seeing things they could not possibly know existed, such as a blue left-foot tennis shoe above the operating room drop ceiling.

With the insistence of the operating room staff, maintenance got a ladder to verify, and sure enough, it was there as described. Others have heard the conversations in different operating rooms and repeated them to the staff verbatim.

If true and not a hoax, I do not have a clue.

8 hours ago, Starise said:

God uses bad to bring the other bad along with it. Satan has a purpose. In addition to bad being often turned for good purposes.

The way I see this things have to run their course now. Satan rebelled and pulled  a 3rd of the angels away. Satan aided in ruining man the same way he ruined himself, which I believe he thought it to be a death hit on men. He did not anticipate the salvation of men. This must really grate on him since none of the others were offered salvation. Their job was to remain loyal.

Now the goal is to entice men further away from God so they will never accept him. One way he does this is through character attacks on God questioning his validity , and discrediting the Bible in twisting it. If Christianity can be seen as passé, he can give men what the flesh has always wanted. A religion that lets them indulge the flesh. 
Anyone who has a mind to rebel or run counter to God will find lots of company. That’s why there will be millions in hell. This is the catalyst Satan uses, and why I think his presence on earth is used to help purge those people in the end.

 

I, too, have wondered why Satan and his ilk hate us so much. I do not think it has anything to do with, “misery loves company.”

To take a guess, I would say pride and jealousy were in play. He and the angelic host were not created in God's image and likeness.

When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7) [emphasis added]

To me, this indicates Lucifer and the one-third had not rebelled yet during creation.

9 hours ago, luigi said:

I don't know about Satan sinning in the angelic realm and being cast out yet, which many assume to be what Christ is saying when He says He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning in Luke 10:18. It is in a future tense, just like Jesus saw not one stone on top of another in the current Jerusalem.

As to why Satan was not cast into the lake of fire following his deception of Adam and Eve; it was because man had made his choice to believe in Satan and not God at that point, and as such, Satan was allotted governance over man and the world. As his world governance over man and the worlds ecosystems is now collapsing; he and his false illuminating angels will soon be cast out unto the earth (Revelation 12:9), where he will be allotted one last go at making his governance over man and the world work. He will not be successful, and he knows it (Revelation 12:12).

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

I believe your observation is correct; Satan continues to accuse the brethren day and night before our advocate, the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it is yet future:

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (Job 2:1)

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Good to think upon these questions as they help us appreciate God`s character and His purposes.

 

So...Why didn`t God cast Lucifer/Satan into the lake of Fire -

 

1. After he had sinned in the angelic realm and was cast out.

2. After he had deluded Adam and Eve.

3. After Christ rose from the dead.

4. After the tribulation.

I think most of us have thought about and questioned that question. The following is one of the best answers I found that I agree with:

God vs. Satan—If God Is All-Powerful, Why Does He Not Just Kill Satan?

God has not cast Satan into the Lake of Fire yet because His timing is perfect and part of His sovereign plan. While it remains a mystery why God has not destroyed Satan immediately after his sin, it is believed that God's plan for Satan will ultimately bring about good for those who love Him. Questioning God's plan and timing is seen as questioning His judgment and character. It is emphasized that God's ways are higher than human ways, and it is important to trust and obey Him. The belief is that God's plan for Satan's demise will be the best possible plan because it is God's plan, and it will ultimately glorify His righteousness.¹

¹ Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered

In Dennis's linguistics, Satan is a useful idiot. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The question always is; "do we study the Bible first by way of a bird's eye and then do the detail - or, the other way around?" Well, we all know that a puzzle is much easier to do with the picture on the box before our eyes. So lets take an elevated position.

God has a plan and joins Himself to man for its realization. The basic plan is;
1. Have a physical and visible expression of Himself - the invisible God
2. Have a ruler of this earth that depends on, and obeys Him
3. Have a spiritual House to dwell on earth
4. Have a physical Bride for His Son - the Man Jesus

For points 1 and 3 the man has to have a DISPOSITION - a Character that is expressed by his physical actions. For point 2 the man needs God's POWER. For point 4 man needs to be in Christ and come out of Him like Eve did. In coming out of her man has the same substance and vitality as Him except he is not the SOURCE.

For various reasons the first man did not carry out God's instructions and his DISPOSITION was utterly changed. He became an implacable enemy of his Maker. Man is like a snowball rolling down a hillside towards a furnace - a place of destruction of snowballs. In his way the snowball gets bigger, heavier and he is less likely to turn uphill again, unless some with power turns him.

But even if a man of giant strength stops the snowball and pushes it up the hill away from the fire, the man is still an offender of God, still an enemy of God, still prone to downward trajectory and still a snowball. So one can be saved from the fire but man needs a fundamental change. So God's work is TWOFOLD;
1. To SAVE a man without breaking His own laws of justice
2. To change a man without the man, still being an enemy, resisting God

Suppose God has decided that He will make the snowball a block of ice for building an House for Him (an igloo). He can apply pressure and blows to turn the soft snow into an ice block, but if the snow resists God and every evening undoes the work God has done, what can God do? He made the snowball to have its own will and He honors that. He sets a REWARD for cooperation. God has FOUR options:
1. He can leave the snowball to his own devices. But then His great effort and expense of SAVING the downward vector of the snowball is wasted, and He will have a reputation of a loser.
2. He can frighten the snowball into submission, but this a precarious situation because the snowball has no concept of the temperature of the flames and soon puts these unpleasant thoughts away
3. He can use His massive power to force the snowball into the ROLE but he will soon flag and be a bad ruler
4. He can offer a REWARD for loving Him and serving Him. This way he gets cooperative lovers who WANT to make Him happy.

And this is the story of the Bible. God loves His snowballs and does everything to SAVE them. But He SAVES them FOR A PURPOSE. The SAVING is applied if the snowball BELIEVES in God's Work. But the TRAINING for higher office is going to cost time, effort and self-discipline. This principle is the framework of the Law of God (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28). And it remains God's principle for the SANCTIFICATION of a SAVED man. In essence the man suffers LOSS for God's interests, but God, in due time, will RECOMPENSE.

The world will plummet downhill and evil will turn into an avalanche. If you are a dead Christian, your account has been closed and you wait to give account. If you are a living Christian you are SAVED, but you still need to be saved from your corruption and uselessness in Gods economy. If you cooperate you will be REWARDED by missing the Great Tribulation. If you resist, God will leave you on earth. You cannot earn your salvation from God's appointed wrath. But you can earn an escape from his wrath on the ungodly. What good sense to read and apply God's way - even if it costs a temporary loss. What stupidity to NOT BELIEVE GOD. In Matthew 7:21-23 some very enthusiastic servants laid claim to the kingdom. They were utterly refused - not for their works, but because they did them without ORDERS. And how come they did not know their orders. They were great workers but had no INTIMACY with the General. Sounds like this happened in Ephesus in Revelation 2. Will you recognize your Genera when He passes through your barracks in the night with His ORDERS!

I liked your analogy about the snowball. I recall a secular saying here in America: "Not a snowball's chance in Hell."

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply. I agree. We debate. We argue too. It's healthy and there is no greater test for one's understanding than to have to formulate it.

The language surrounding the various Kingdoms is simple. The Kingdom of God is that area or sphere where God is King and His direct commands are met with obedience. God is sovereign, but for His Name's sake and for His glory, He attached Himself to mankind. If this man is delayed or stopped, God is happy to wait. By using the weakest link He heaps glory upon Himself. So, having placed the earth in man's hands He prepares to take His rest while man rules. That man fell and nw the wrong men rule is no problem to Him. He simply starts a work using man to recover His plan. It just takes some time but all the greater is His glory.

Heaven is God's Throne and so all authority starts there. If God engineers circumstances so that the same rules that apply in heaven are made to apply on earth, then the Kingdom (OUT OF) Heaven is on earth. There is no great hidden meaning to the verse you quoted. The Gentiles rule the earth. Jesus prayed for HIS (God's) Kingdom to COME (to earth) and in the same breath He prayed that the rules of heaven would be applied on earth. "Thy Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy WILL be dome on EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN". Simple.

The Kingdom of God has to do with the King, and the Kingdom of Heaven has to do with the standard and type of rule.

Man lost much on that fateful day when he ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He sinned and could expect God to demand RESTITUTION and RETRIBUTION. He was barred from the Tree of Life. His body was poisoned and headed towards physical death. He was barred from fellowship directly with God. He was humiliated and robbed of his position. He was in no position to rule seeing as he was the source of bad management.

But God is sovereign. He was not taken by surprise and immediately put into motion a way of recovering man to his position and inheritance. The grand process of man's salvation does NOT END IN HEAVEN. Man's recovery is so that he can fulfill what God originally planned. Rule of the earth!

Because of man's construction this recovery is partly IMPOSSIBLE. Man has no power or means to meet God's requirements for RESTITUTION. Likewise, the RETRIBUTION would destroy him. He could not overcome DEATH. He could not overcome the obstacles to the Tree of Life. He could not have a royal birth to be legal for a throne. So God had to do these things via a Substitute and APPLY them to man. The CONDITION for partaking of the RECOVERY is FAITH in God and His Son and His WORK.

But because of his construction, the thinking, feeling and deciding organs of man - his SOUL, could be infused with God's Nature and TRAINED. If God infused the life of His Son into man and then applied circumstances and discipline to a WILLING man and TRANSFORM his SOUL. God would supply the means and man would cooperate in APPLYING them.

Now God is not naive. The damage to man is great. Man always tends toward evil. So God made an INCENTIVE to get man to cooperate. Under Law the incentives were temporal. Health, wealth and long life, safety from enemies and bumper harvests were some of them. But for being restored to the high calling of being a ruling son of God, a superhuman standard was to be achieved. So God took the SAVED aside and promised him REWARDS if he cooperated. Conversely, if man did not cooperate, RETRIBUTION would be heaped on him.

The WAY was:
- To consume God's Word as a living bread
- To deny the legal and illegal demands of the SOUL in favor of God's demands
- To crucify the FLESH when it made legal and illegal demands
- To learn to OBEY the indwelling Spirit of God in all matters and commands
- To develop an intimate and virile RELATIONSHIP with Jesus

The REWARD is to:
- Be in the favor and presence of God (Ps.16:11)
- Have past wrongs done to you, met with revenge (Matt.25:31-46)
- Have past enemies come cowering at your feet (Rev.3:9)
- Watch God's enemies suffer day and night (Isa.66:24)
- Have great wealth, fame and power (Matt.19:29)
- Be a guest at a Wedding feast (Rev.19:7-8)
- Rule a city, or cities with heavenly glory, pomp and authority (Lk.19:17-19)

God's RETRIBUTION for non-cooperation is:
- Cast from the presence of God and Christ for 1,000 years
- Commensurate physical punishment (Matt.24:50-51, Lk.12:48)
- Disgrace before God and men - a laughing stock
- To be "hurt" of the Second Death
- To be refused connection with Jesus
- To suffer intensely from deep regret and sense of loss
- To complete the required training in the age of the rod of iron

You will note that each section does not infringe on the others. Your past sins forgiven, rebirth and eternal life remain. They are had by FAITH and cannot be refuted or withdrawn. You are still a son of God. But you suffer tremendously if you resist and disobey Gods commands in your spirit. You can be a son of God and suffer. You can have eternal life and suffer. You can be resurrected and still suffer physically.

I'll deal with the Covenants another day.

That is a good explanation, thank you. We are on the same page, but maybe a different paragraph. Partial raptures, resurrections, and translations are certain in time and place; they are how we view who, when, and why. I mentioned those martyrs under the altar who were given white robes (not glorified bodies) awaiting more of their martyred brethren, the Great White Throne, etc.

To clarify to those who claim there is no such thing as a Rapture because the word is not in the Bible. It is derived from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate Bible (harpazo-rapio) translation, and most churches adopt it. Therefore, it is in the Bible.

Elijah was caught up (v. alah), Enoch was caught up (v. laqach), Paul was caught up to the 3^rd Heaven (harpazo), and Philip was transported elsewhere on earth (harpazo). In all instances, we can substitute the word rapture, which simply means a movement. Jesus’s ascension into the clouds was a Rapture (movement). With that clarification out of the way…

For now, let us stick to what directly affects us in this generation, which I believe is the terminal generation, so that I can glean everyone’s thoughts on partial raptures.

I am not saying this, but suppose the Rapture and Resurrection will happen next week. People either have eternal Salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or not. Will a distinction and partial Rapture and Resurrection happen, or will all true believers with faith and trust in Jesus be taken, regardless of whether they had much fruit and works for the Kingdom? This is not a reward; it is by faith alone.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Revelation 7:17)

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:4)

If there is remedial training, more testing, maturing, regret, punishment, etc., for those in their glorified bodies who did not make the cut, then there will undoubtedly be regret and tears.

I believe the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order, with parenthetical chapters inserted. The wiping away of tears in Rev. 7:17 is during the Tribulation, and how I interpret it applies only to those Tribulation saints. As I view it, Rev. 21:4 precedes entering the eternal state with the New Jerusalem.

We know that during the millennial reign, human longevity will revert to that of the first ten generations, but there will still be death. Some sin will still be present under the rule with a rod of iron, but too much sin or rebellion and babes of 100 years old will be put to death.

This applies to those with mortal bodies allowed to enter the millennium and to successive generations. What about those with glorified bodies that will never taste death again? Were their tears, sorrow, crying, and pain removed at the last step of Salvation, glorification?

Your exegesis makes logical sense if the preceding is not removed from us until Revelation 21:4.

If my above speculation is accurate, I thought about why our tears, sorrow, and crying are not removed until eternity.

Could it be a time of reflection? The wasted opportunities presented to us to share the Gospel and our testimony. The fruit we had the opportunity to bear for the Kingdom. We were often self-centered and could have helped a brother or stranger, but we did not. We may have had ill will toward some people, etc.

We may see, or at least know of those suffering in Hell, that we could have made an eternal difference in their lives by planting the seed of the Good News. In retrospect, even now, these things are hard to stomach and cannot be undone.

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Let's look at it this way. Would you say that Moses, Aaron and 600,000 fighting men of the 12 Tribes of Israel were APPOINTED to enter and occupy the Good Land. The training of Moses, which took 80 years, the burning bush, the plagues, the slaughter of Egypt's Firstborn and the opening of the Red Sea all point to God having a plan to get this generation of fighting men into the Land He had PROMISED. But how many achieved what was appointed? The answer is 2!

In Revelation 18:4 what do you think? If a Christian is playing in the devil's back yard, and God warned him of plagues to come on the back yard, will he miraculously escape if he does not head the warning?

I propose that parables of the Kingdom, and the direct statements (e.g. Gal.5:21), show that ENTERING the coming Kingdom (out) OF Heaven show that only those worthy, only those that attained, only those who behaved, only those qualified, only Overcomers and only those with an intimacy with Christ, will enter it.

At GREAT COST did Jehovah take out of the Nations a People for Himself. He has outlined His plan in a GREAT BOOK. He will not allow His GREAT NAME to be defiled with the behavior we see in Christian circles today.

To understand it all, all we must do is apply English grammar rules to a God Who gave us language. We do for the computer companies when we set up a new telephone. Every point and dot is carefully put in the right place. If God says "appointed" then he is appointed SO LONG AS NOTHING CHANGES. If he dies, get gravely ill, goes to jail or plays in the Devil's back yard, his "appointment" is annulled.

See my posting in the middle of page 2 of this Thread.

Go well soldier

Brother AdHoc, I see your point, and I am not being argumentative; I am just debating.

So, to be clear, which kingdom do you refer to exactly? Citing your example of Caleb and Joshua being the only two allowed to enter the Promised Land, I see that not so much as a reward for service, faith, or trust but as the fulfillment of a covenant promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That contractual covenant was performed by God alone with Abraham, with no second parties’ involvement, correct?

As you rightly imply, the Hebrews-Jews are one of the eight kingdoms in and of themselves, a peculiar stiff-necked people chosen out of the nations as a people of God. That kingdom was specifically meant for and offered to the Jews first but rejected, correct? Later, it was amended and expanded to include Gentiles by grafting us in. So far so good?

This Jewish kingdom is an inheritance of innumerable people and a land grant with borders far exceeding today's. In the millennial kingdom, two Jews by birth will rule and reign: #1 Jesus and #2 David, as well as the Jewish Patriarchs and Apostles (twelve gates—twelve foundations).

That first generation of roughly 600,000 fighting men was allowed to live out their lives and, through attrition, was not allowed to step into the Promised Land. It appears the twelve spies representing the Twelve Tribes determined whether or not they would take the Promised Land by force from the descendants of the Nephilim, as God had directed them.

Caleb (Judah) and Joshua (Ephraim) believed the Lord and reported favorably to war against the giants taking their inheritance forcefully. Of those roughly 600,000 men of fighting age, there had to be many siding with Caleb and Joshua, yet only those two were allowed in to the Land. I see a covenant and reward as separate and distinguishable.

Now, back to the meat and potatoes. You’re not a vegan, are you?😊 I see the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven as two separate Kingdoms until Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father at the close of the millennium. Matthew expounds on the Kingdom of Heaven 32 times and the Kingdom of God five times; it is evident these are not synonymous or used interchangeably.

The kingdom age has not arrived yet:

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Luke 11:2)

I take the above to mean the Kingdom of God the Father.

The concept of the Kingdom of God is a central theme in both the Old and New Testaments. In the Old Testament, God is portrayed as the king over all creation and specifically as the king of his covenant people, Israel. The prophets foretold a future time when God would manifest himself as king, bringing salvation and blessing not only to Israel but to all nations. In the New Testament, Jesus and John the Baptist preached about the Kingdom of God, emphasizing its arrival and fulfillment through Jesus. The Kingdom is described as both a present reality and a future eschatological hope. The relationship between the Kingdom of God and the church is debated, with the church seen as manifesting the Kingdom without being identical to it. The eschatological nature of the Kingdom, as proclaimed by Jesus, is a key focus of theological debate and interpretation.¹

¹New Dictionary of Theology

Admittedly, there appear to be conditional clauses regarding Salvation and entrance into the kingdoms (ifs, ands, until the end, etc.).

But, if God saved me, granted me eternal, everlasting life, then took that life back for any reason, it was not eternal, to begin with.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)

In summary (you’re welcome 😊):

I think many are saved by faith alone and have produced little or no fruit for the Lord, as some parables imply. If entrance into the millennium (the bride of Christ) is by works and a reward for the good and faithful servant, and the slothful do not qualify for entrance into the Kingdom of Jesus, then what is their fate, and where do slothful Christians go in the kingdom age?

If this is true, perhaps Matthew alone provides a clue with “outer darkness?” There seems to be agreement with a single view of what this outer darkness represents: Hell:

The Meaning of Outer Darkness With these definitions as a range of meanings, we seek to accurately define outer darkness. Based on the history of its usage, this phrase is best understood as a reference to exclusion from the festivities that will accompany the Marriage Supper of the Lamb at the beginning of the Millennium (cf. Rev. 19:6–9). Outer darkness is a metonym for not entering the Kingdom. Those servants who respond appropriately to the talent they are given will be granted entrance into the wedding feast (and by extension the Kingdom). Those servants who are unprofitable will be left out in the dark where they will experience intense remorse. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a reference to the sorrow, grief, and agony of hell (Matt. 25:30). ¹

¹ What Lies Ahead: A Biblical Overview of the End Times

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But this is not all. If there are "partial raptures" and the rapture is split into gatherings for a harvest, we can expect to see SOME Christians in the clouds with the Son of Man while SOME are left to face the Great Tribulation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (1 Thessalonians 5:9) [Emphasis added]

What is the reason for the Tribulation, and who faces it? Can a Christian be partially saved, needing remedial judgment, wrath, and correction, and having a partial Holy Spirit indwelling? It seems to me Salvation (faith) and Reward (earned) are connected but not the same:

Salvation is the deliverance from danger or suffering, with a focus on eternal spiritual deliverance in Christian doctrine. It involves being saved from God's judgment of sin and the removal of sin's consequences through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a gift from God, achieved through Jesus' death and resurrection, and is only accessible through faith. To receive salvation, one must hear the gospel, believe in Jesus, repent from sin, and call on the Lord. The Christian doctrine of salvation entails being saved from eternal punishment for sin by accepting God's conditions of repentance and faith in Jesus. Salvation is exclusive to Jesus and relies solely on God for provision, assurance, and security.

Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered

REWARDS (Gk. misthos, meaning “hire, wage, reward,” Matt. 5:12, 46; 6:1; 10:41; Mark 9:41; 1 Cor. 3:8; etc.). Rewards are offered by God to a believer on the basis of faithful service rendered after salvation. It is clear from Scripture that God offers to the lost salvation and for the faithful service of the saved, rewards. Often in theological thinking salvation and rewards are confused. However, these two terms must be carefully distinguished. Salvation is a free gift (John 4:10; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8–9, whereas rewards are earned by works (Matt. 10:42; cf. Luke 19:17; 1 Cor. 9:24–25; 2 Tim. 4:7–8).^[1]

So, if we have Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, even if we are slothful, we are still the sons of God, the bride of Christ, and saints. Will partial brides (the body of Christ) attend the marriage of the Lamb and marriage feast?

I see participation and rule in the Millennial reign as potentially a reward for service (parables). Matthew's description of "outer darkness" may not be Hell but exclusion.

Just thinking out loud with my thoughts.

14 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I don't know much about what the anti-Nicene church fathers held regarding the rapture(s) . . . and I would defer to @AdHoc regarding any teachings from back then about multiple/partial reapings.   And even if no church father source for the idea comes from that period, I would maintain that this, in and of itself, certainly does not negate the idea.

I do agree that much of the partial rapture teaching did get promulgated by 19th century authors.  Here's something from Wikipedia in an article on "Rapture" subsection "Partial pre-tribulation premillennialism":  As stated by Ira David (a proponent of this view): “The saints will be raptured  in groups during the tribulation as they are prepared to go.”[98] Some notable proponents of this theory are G. H. Lang, Robert Chapman, G. H. Pember, Robert Govett, D. M. Panton, Watchman Nee, Ira E. David, J. A. Seiss, Hudson Taylor, Anthony Norris Groves, John Wilkinson, G. Campbell Morgan, Otto Stockmayer and Rev. J. W. (Chip) White Jr.  Found here  - an interesting read on the whole matter of the rapture:                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture 

I am familiar with a number of these authors and many were in the 19th century.

If anyone is interested, here is a website I found today that promotes Partial Rapture Theory (PRT): https://www.bible-prophecy.co/partial-rapture-theory/  I have just started to look through it, so I can't vouch for its veracity.  UPDATE:  Just realized this website is by an author whose book I have on my shelf:  "The Partial Rapture and the Left Behind Church" by Paul Shoenbarger

To coin an old secular adage, “The closer to the bone, the sweeter the meat.” The closer we get to the source material and references, the more detail and accuracy.

My point is:

1 Thes. 4: ¹⁵For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Wherefore ^lcomfort one another with these words. [emphasis mine]

On scripture: I am not dogmatic, but I see nowhere in scripture that teaches a partial rapture. How could we comfort one another knowing some of our beloved brethren and loved ones missed the church age (age of Grace) Rapture and Resurrection? It seems the pronoun WE is all-encompassing and all-inclusive.

I mentioned the early so-called church fathers. Polycarp was a personal friend and disciple of John the Revelator, studying under John, not to mention Irenaeus under Polycarp and all the other so-called Ante-Nicene fathers. None of them knew what is spouted today as partial raptures.

Short of reverifying, I do not recall any Reformation leaders of the sixteenth century mentioning partial raptures. This doctrinal introduction is a product of the 19^th century, which is very late in Biblical terms.

It is not to say there will only be one rapture and one glorification. I believe those Tribulation martyrs (and ourselves) will return with Christ at His 2^nd coming, then having their glorified bodies.

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6:11)

The final resurrection is the Great White Throne judgment, where those not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are bodily resurrected, condemned, and join the Antichrist and False Prophet in the Lake of Fire.

I also would like @AdHoc to chime in. I consistently learn from you both, getting alternate views and thoughts.

10 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

 

When Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand," what prophetic time was He referencing in scripture?

In my opinion: First, let's not confuse the Kingdom of Heaven with the Kingdom of God; I do not think they are synonymous. Without side-tracking to detail them, Matthew differentiates them by the Kingdom of Heaven 30 times and the Kingdom of God 5 times. Your question pertained to the Kingdom of God:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:15) [emphasis added]

Your allusion omitted the keyword, answering the question, the gospel. The Kingdom of God, as portrayed in the synoptic Gospel of Mark 1:15, highlights how Jesus is seen as the Messiah King who has come to restore God's intention for humanity and creation. The Kingdom of God is depicted as the antidote to the fall, bringing salvation and wholeness to the world. Jesus is presented as the inaugurator of this new kingdom, with his ministry focused on calling people to repent and believe in the good news.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

What prophetic time in scripture is it? All the OT promises of the coming Messiah have arrived. "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Out with the old, and in with the new: The last OT prophet John the Baptist and the Law are being replaced by Grace and the Lord's sacrificial death for our justification, sanctification, and atonement. It was offered to the Jews first, and as a nation, they rejected their Messiah and unjustly murdered Him. Fortunately for us Gentiles, we were grafted into the vine.

On Dominica Palmarum, Jesus made His triumphal entry to Jerusalem atop of an ass. To present Himself as the Jews Messiah, AND to usher in the Kingdom of Heaven. Because of that rejection, the Kingdom of Heaven has been postponed for two millennia now. Thus:

 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)

This now takes place starting at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation, concluding with the second advent of our Lord at the close of the Tribulation.

Right or wrong, I hope my explanation clarifies my thoughts. Quid pro quo: What are your thoughts, and where do we differ?

9 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I'm actually curious about this one. I've heard of the concept before but it's not one I've looked into very deeply. Is this something you'd be able to elaborate on in another thread maybe?

I am very interested in partial rapture theories. Mentioning my leanings or beliefs would be of no benefit. The rapture has three main views: who goes, when, and why. It is a lengthy topic of discussion.

I have checked the writings of anti-Nicene fathers on multiple and partial raptures and have found none. These doctrines became prominent among scholars and theologians in the 19^th century. As well as the influx of many versions and translations of the Bible.

Systematic Theology by Ryrie, Grudem, Strong, and Boyce has a wealth of information on partial raptures and the rest of theology. One of these books will significantly enhance the understanding of the majority views.