Truth Seeker

Wow! 1 - I did not say that you were Jewish did I? Paul did say that we are grafted in but I will let you argue with him over that one. I was simply trying to make a point that to truly understand much of what the Bible is saying you have to know the Hebrew context. 2 - Yes I was calling for a truce. Yes I think that we need to agree to disagree but I even get criticized for that. 3 - As for the rest of your diatribe it sounds to me like you are saying that it is all so very simple, that you have God and the Bible all figured out and if I disagree with you then I am just a waste of your time. Well I apologize for wasting your time. I will waste it no more. I am done with this!

Truce! I think it's time to call a truce! It sounds like both sides are getting frustrated I know I did. Folks, I don't know InChrist but I am betting that his story is a lot like mine. As I have said before I have been a Christian for over 40 years. All of the responses that you gave I already knew because I was taught the same thing in church. But when you study church history and the background of the times and people of the Bible you start to realize that many of the answers that you were taught in church do not add up. I know I was (and I believe that InChrist was too) trying to show you all some of the things that we have learned. I was not trying to be critical. Much of the time I was asking questions to try to get you to question your theology and see new possibilities. Unfortunately most of my questions were simply avoided. No, I am not claiming to super smart or have all of the answers but I promise you that I have learned things that just blew my mind. I encourage you to do like I started doing about 20 years ago and ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth before you read your Bible. Let the Holy Spirit be your teacher not man. Do not blindly accept teaching materials or commentaries as truth. Study hard to find out if they match up to the whole Bible. Sure, you can quote a scripture and I can quote one that says the opposite but the question is, how does it line up with the whole Bible? Remember that the old testament prophets were Hebrew, Jesus was Hebrew and the apostles were Hebrew. Study the Hebrew perspective. Remember that the Bible is either all true or it is all worthless. Both sides of us were speaking truth but it has to all fit together. God Bless! Keep studying!

Awfully condescending remarks there. I don't understand why modern Christianity in America fights so hard against God's laws. You tell people not to sin but you have no specifics about what sin is and what is not sin. It is confusing to me so imagine how it looks to the lost. It is no wonder that Christianity is dying! And YES I do understand the old and new covenants.

And again! Did Paul not say that we are grafted in to Israel?

And again! Exodus 12:49New King James Version (NKJV) 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.” It is not and never was just for the Jews!

What do you think is written on our hearts? Deuteronomy 30:11-14New King James Version (NKJV) The Choice of Life or Death 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. You see it has been that way from the beginning.

So then you are agreeing with me that we are to follow a code of conduct?

So I am free to steal kill and destroy?

I have never said that you have to fulfill the law to be saved as a matter of fact I have said exactly the opposite that we are saved by grace. I am not disputing that point. Much of Galatians and Paul's other writings are dealing circumcision countering the argument of the Judaisers that it was required for salvation but the specific portion that I was countering was talking about Jews separating themselves from gentiles especially at meals which is not scriptural but is a rabbinic command. I think that we all agree that as Christians we should turn away from sin. Right? As I have asked before what is sin specifically? 1 John says that sin is the transgression of the law. When God gave the Torah He said that if you follow it you will live and be blessed and if you don't you will be cursed. The Bible clearly says that God does not change and I don't believe that He has changed His mind about the Torah either. There are parts of it that we cannot keep for various reasons but as far as how to live I believe it still applies. Businesses have codes of conduct, rules to live by if you work for that company. Is it really that hard to believe that almighty God would have a code of conduct?

Again and again and again I ask, what law is Paul talking about? Thank you for proving my point. Galatians 2:11-13New King James Version (NKJV) No Return to the Law 11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. If you back up and look at the previous verses to find out what Paul is talking about you find that he was talking about Peter and others separating themselves from the gentiles which is not part of the written Torah (The first five books of the Bible) that comes from the oral torah which is the rabbis making up rules to add to the Scriptures. Paul is obviously NOT talking about the written Torah.

Oops I forgot: Acts 24:14New King James Version (NKJV) 14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. This is Paul speaking. He himself declares that he believes in the law!

You start out with the statement that the covenant was given to Israel not the church and not the gentiles which is not exactly correct. First you say not the church as if it is separate from Israel. It is not. It is an extension of Israel. Remember in Romans 11 Paul talks about the gentile being grafted in? He was talking about the gentile being grafted in to Israel. Many Christians act like Israel has to be grafted in to the church, all of which comes from the errant replacement theology. Exodus 12:49New International Version (NIV) 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.” God has always been available to the gentile as long as the gentile came and followed the same law. As for Jesus and the law, He said in Matthew chapter 5 till Heaven and earth pass away that not a jot or tittle would pass from the law. Have they passed away? Next you try to make the case that Paul was just following the law while in Jerusalem because that was the law of the land and he was bound to do so. Sorry, totally incorrect. Study the book of Acts. In chapter 21 Paul is encouraged by James to help four men who had taken the Nazarite vow. The Nazarite vow is a voluntary part of the Torah Paul would not have been required to do it by law. It also shows that Paul had taken the vow. It also shows that James was asking Paul to do this to show the Jews that Paul was NOT teaching the gentiles to forsake Moses! Finally you say that it was against Mosaic law for a Jew to marry a gentile. I do not think that is correct but I am not sure and since you gave NO scriptures I cannot check it. Could you provide that scripture for me please?

Amen inchrist! I have asked these same questions on what is and what is not sin and cannot get a definitive answer from anyone. They throw out terms like the law of love or the law of liberty but they never will get specific on what is and what is not sin. I am sick of seeing the headlines of this "Christian" coming out as homosexual or hearing Christians talk about the ungodly tv shows and movies that they watch or hearing about yet another Christian couple getting a divorce and the list goes on and on. Let's be honest Christians today are not concerned about sin because they believe that they are under grace and they can do whatever they want and God will just turn a blind eye. If God had a code of conduct for the Israelites to live by but does not for Christians then God changed and the Bible is false. Jude 4New International Version (NIV) 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. No, Christians are not denying Jesus but they are definitely using grace as a license to sin.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14New King James Version (NKJV) The Choice of Life or Death 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Too many errors for me to try to deal with. Christianity has become theologically illogical.

Oh Boy! Here we go again! I give up! I became a Christian 43 years ago. I no longer know what Christianity is anymore. The best I can tell is that if you say that you believe in Jesus you are going to heaven. There are no hard and fast rules to live by, just be loving, however ambiguous that may be. If that is what Christianity means now then count me out. I don't believe it!

Brothers and Sisters, here is my view. I am almost 60 years old. In my lifetime I have witnessed Christianity in America change and not for the better. The unbelievers in America have seen it too and they see no reason to be a Christian. Back about five decades ago Christianity used to have a standard of living that you were expected to live by if you were a Christian. The standards varied from church to church but still there was a standard and the world knew it and for the most part respected Christians. Then I began to notice a change. Churches started to throw out the Old Testament and started advertising that they were a New Testament church. Next the focus became more and more on grace and if you mentioned any kind of standards to live by you were shouted down as being legalistic. Then they started shouting, you can't judge me! (which is un-Biblical see 1Corinthians 5:12) We have now come to the place where there are almost no standards for Christians. There is almost no difference between a believer and an unbeliever. Christianity in America is dying because we have no firm foundation anymore. We as Christians must get back to some standards. I understand that we are not going to agree on them all, there are still going to be variations from church to church but we are called to be a separate people and that is what we need to do is separate ourselves from the world. We need to be un-apologetically different but the kind of different that someone else would look at and respect. The Bible says that God does not change. God did not decide one day that the laws were not working so He would just throw them out and replace them with something vague that leaves everyone to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong and I believe that deep down in their hearts most Christians know this but we have been too busy trying to use scripture to justify our actions instead of using scripture to change our actions. What happened to Holiness, Righteousness and Godliness? I am not disagreeing with grace. It is for sure that we are saved by grace because we all sinned, but catch that, we have all sinned as in past tense! We should not continue to sin, 1 John 5:18. We cannot use grace as a license to sin, Jude 1:4. This has been a long hard discussion. If we Christians can't figure it out how do we expect the world to grasp it? They can't and they don't and that is why Christianity is dying. We must get it figured out and come to agreement on it and we must do it fast! There are many souls depending on it! God Bless! P.S. I take God's word very seriously and I can get excited about it in a good way and in a bad way so let me say that if I have said anything that sounded harsh or unloving please forgive me!

Yes I did read that but I don't see how the Law that Paul is referring to is the law of Moses and when John refers to "lawlessness" that means the ten commandments. Never the less... If Paul is writing about the law of Moses why then In Acts 21:18-24 is Paul working to prove that he is NOT teaching against the law and why does he say in Acts 24:14 that he believes all that is written in the Torah and Prophets? It seems to me that either Paul was NOT referring to the Torah or he was a great hypocrite. Also as for the oral Torah, if you look up a video called The Hebrew Yeshuah versus the Greek Jesus by Nehemiah Gordon , the son of a Rabbi you will find that the Rabbi's did and still do consider their word supreme even over the written law. He also shows how many try to use Matthew chapter 15:1-20 as an example of Jesus doing away with the law of Moses but the hand washing in question is not from the law of Moses rather it is from the oral law of the Rabbi's. You said" In brief, anything and everything which is contrary to the character of God is sin. " Wouldn't that be what the Law of Moses was pointing out, the character of God?

I.E. Romans 7:21New International Version (NIV) 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. Obviously Paul is not talking about the Torah

Wait wait wait You said that when Paul discusses the Law he is invariably referring to the law of Moses (which I disagree with) then you say that sin is the transgression of the law and you change it to the ten commandments. Yes I realize that the second quote was not Paul but how do you arbitrarily interchange the meaning of the law?

Ezra, Was Paul referring to the written law or the oral law or was he referring to a principal such as the law of sin and death and how do you know? You mentioned turning away from all sins but you never answered my question about what specifically are sins so how is a person supposed to turn away from sin if there is no clear definition of what is sin and what is not sin?

And NO I am not just being argumentative or hard to get along with, I am trying to illustrate a point.

That is pretty broad. So how would you answer the old atheist argument about having sex with your married neighbor? That's not being unloving.

Then again I have to ask what is sin and what is not? I mean specifically not just a broad definition like missing the mark.

Thanks Remnantrob and Ezra. Ezra you mentioned turning away from all sin, can you tell me specifically what are sins and what are not a sins?