Ok not to stray from my root point. I don't believe Pastors 'need' a gun because unless his battles are won in the spirit by the Lord and His angels it cannot be won in the flesh and therefore a physical weapon would be ineffective after the fact. You believe that Pastors need a gun and that's fine. We both share different views and I guess we'll both hold on to these views.

Not to stray from my root point. I don't believe Pastors 'need' a gun because unless his battles are won in the spirit by the Lord and His angels it cannot be won in the flesh and therefore a physical weapon would be ineffective after the fact. You believe that Pastors need a gun and that's fine. We both share different views and I guess we'll both hold on to these views.

I don't believe Pastors 'need' a gun because unless his battles are won in the spirit by the Lord and His angels it cannot be won in the flesh and therefore a physical weapon would be ineffective after the fact. You believe that Pastors need a gun and that's fine. We both share different views and I guess we'll both hold on to these views.

Ok not to stray from my root point. I don't believe Pastors 'need' a gun because unless his battles are won in the spirit by the Lord and His angels it cannot be won in the flesh and therefore a physical weapon would be ineffective after the fact. You believe that Pastors need a gun and that's fine. We both share different views and I guess we'll both hold on to these views.

11 minutes ago, The_Patriot2016 said:

You didn't answer the question. Yes or no. If a pastor gets gunned down, does that mean he lacked faith?

The short answer to your question is No; But my main point is that the weapon that he needs to fight against an attack or to prevent it in the first place is not of the flesh but of the spirit. The Father could also bring the misfortune on him but in either case a physical weapon is futile in any battle if he doesn't pray first and foremost. 

On 12/13/2016 at 11:52 AM, da_man1974 said:

I'm a little late to this topic, but I have to agree with many of the posts here.  Should pastors wear seat belts? Do pastors need a parachute when skydiving?  Or do pastors ever get sick and die?

Maybe all pastors should own guns.  They are the ones that may be on the frontlines of persecution of the church.  Most people know who the pastor is but they do not know everyone in the congregation.  

Just because someone is a pastor/Christian does not give them an immediate protection from everything evil or ungodly in the world.  

8 minutes ago, The_Patriot2016 said:

So what your saying is if a pastor gets gunned down he didn't pray? You do realize all but one of the original apostles were martyred? Are you suggesting they didn't pray or have faith?

7 minutes ago, The_Patriot2016 said:

Maybe we have no fear because we have a gun. Lol. No honestly we have no fear because we serve an almighty God who gave us the tools we needed to be safe.

The Almighty gave us the spiritual tools that we need. Man made the physical ones....His words reassures me that I don't need the manmade tools....and yes I am aware that it is He who gave us the knowledge to make them in the first place but it is usually a person who does not walk in authority and power of the Holy Spirit who feels a need to use these weapons. Our weapons are not in the flesh....seriously....

29 minutes ago, Sharnadeen said:

 

My exact words were 'it is highly possible' so Im not concluding that he didn't pray. If a pastor has reached his life limit according to the number of his days that were written by God then praying probably wouldn't work unless the Lord extends his time like king Hezekiah. But as you may be aware, numerous persons are victims of premature death and prayer is the most effective weapon for fighting against premature death, not a gun or any other physical weapon.

8 minutes ago, Sharnadeen said:

 

The Almighty has the power to stop a trigger from going off which would make having a gun futile in that moment. At the end of the day, the real enemy is in the spirit and the battle with Him can be fought even days before the event or confrontation takes place. The Lord told us in the bible what we need to do to receive His favor. Praying is one of them. Every battle that we are faced with in the flesh, can be fought in the spirit beforehand. Our God is very reasonable, when He sees danger ahead He usually shows it to us or reveals it to someone on our behalf so that we can pray against whatever danger the enemy has planned ahead.  Being a Christian does not guarantee immediate protection but meeting the Lord's conditions that are listed in the bible, together with prayer does guarantee protection.

On 12/13/2016 at 2:39 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

A armed society is a polite society. People always say that if everyone was armed, that includes the idiots who wouldn't use them sensibly...well, if you think about it, if everyone was armed the smart people would to, and nature says the idiots will be weeded out in due time. Either they will be shot by the smart people for doing something stupid with a gun, or they will learn to be smart to avoid being shot.

 

With that said I don't think everyone should be forced to own a gun. If your not comfortable carrying or using one, don't carry it. Otherwise, if the need arises it's more likely you will be shot with your own gun, then it doing you any good.

I used the word afraid which speaks to fear. Why would anyone carry a gun if they have 'no fear'? That just doesn't make any sense. Fear has to be involved, it may not be extreme to the point of death but whatever it is that is being 'protected' by the gun is what the person is 'fearful' to lose on the flipside. Think about it...

8 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Its better to have / carry a firearm and never need it than to desperately need it and not have one.

You can have a firearm and the powers of the spirit prevent it from going off as you have planned. Bottomline, if the powers of the spirit have the final say in all things, why not just leave it up to God to be your personal body guard by making intercessions?

On 12/14/2016 at 5:53 PM, HAZARD said:

Here's why one needs to defend ones self. This man is lucky to be alive. Australians are not allowed to own a firearm purely for self defence? Our courts are too lenient and let criminals out to offend again and again.

Man accused of bashing a 93 year old Geelong man insists he’s not dangerous.

 

AND HE GETS BAIL.

A 19-year-old man charged over allegedly bashing an elderly Geelong man in a terrifying home invasion insists he “wouldn’t hurt anyone”.
Kyle Elston was today a free man after a magistrate yesterday granted him bail over the alleged beating 93-year-old Wally Janeczko in August.
Some of Mr Janeckzko’s credit cards and cash were also allegedly stolen in the home invasion.

“I’m not a dangerous person,” Mr Elston told 9NEWS.
“I’m not a bad person, I don’t do bad things, I wouldn’t hurt anyone.”
Mr Janeczko was sitting his lounge room when an armed intruder allegedly burst into his Chaucer Street home, bashing him for around 15 minutes.

His pants were allegedly slashed with a knife as the intruder made off with the contents of his pocket, including $350 in cash.
Mr Elston spent three months in custody and was yesterday released from Port Phillip Prison.
The magistrate acknowledged a plan was in place to address the accused’s drug addiction issues, which Mr Elston’s sister Charmaine said started after he was given a “go at the crack pipe one night”.

“That’s how he got introduced into ice,” she said.
Ms Elston coaxed her brother into an apology on camera, with Mr Elston addressing Mr Janeczko directly.
“I’m sorry mate for what happened but I didn’t do it to you,” Mr Elston said.
Mr Elston will return to court in January.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/12/14/19/13/man-accused-of-bashing-elderly-geelong-man-insists-hes-not-dangerous#ZbTq9UeXEyor6wIB.99

If our battles are won in the spirit first, then there will be no need to fight it in the flesh and even if we are put to the test, the Lord promises to deliver. We must understand that there are conditions that we must meet when it comes to getting favor from the Lord; He tells us to pray, to keep His commandments, to repent etc...Prayer is most important. Again, the battle has to be won in the realm of the Spirit first and if that is done, chances are that the person who prayed would not be severely injured if injured at all.

On 12/13/2016 at 10:06 PM, Neighbor said:

My thought? My experience tells me everyone that finds need for defense might want to take weaponry training.

And that training had better include learning as best one can the legal consequence of using weaponry, as much as the training to use it effectively.

Should Elders teachers pastors priests etc. arm themselves? Up to them individually. BUT  the practical experiences of this world and including this country would lead me to arm myself  if I were teaching the word of God and making myself the target of many in so doing.

HOWEVER, I would not want to appear before my Lord and savior having to justify having killed a robber, over the potential loss of physical property. Nor would I want to face a local prosecutor to defend my action of shooting a thief either. I must know when it is property or my family that is at risk of loss. If it is my family, then all efforts will be used to stop the attack, we will sort the legalities out later.

Locally, we provide protection for our pastor, plus elders, deacons; and the whole local body of Christ when we gather. We protect our young as they receive education. We are not going to be unwise in caring for our own. 

Churches and Christian schools do receive threats, and in some cases real attacks. It is reality of the day.

 

p.s.

Let me add to the subject this question, what do you think is best, when a deranged noncustodial parent comes to grab a kid at a school. Do you think it is best to be unarmed and untrained  on how to try to stop the abduction and  just phone the local police authority? Or ...

Ok I appreciate your view on the subject. But I must say that any leader or Shepherd who doesn't practice what he preaches makes the word of God futile. I don't need a gun because when I pray I know that I am covered unless the Word of God is a lie. Prayer is key - Just because someone is a Pastor means that he is protected. Unless we or someone stand in the gap for us then we may be victims of premature death.

On 12/12/2016 at 7:31 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

I think everyone who can, should own a gun. And even from a ultra pacifist perspective, theres times where guns are needed. for example, my pastor is Bi-vocational, he also ranches full time. And a gun is a must on a ranch, to deal with varmints, put down sick animals, etc. He doesnt carry one in church, but its safe to say he owns several to assist in his trade. 

Now, with that said, I have no problem with people using guns to defend themselves. The argument "your faith will suffice" is kind of a weak argument, because the world is full of faithful people who get gunned down in the streets. Look at what happened to most of the apostles! and they were men of faith. Saying "your faith" is enough, is basically saying if something bad happens to you, you didnt have enough faith. its a bogus argument.

Fact is, God doesn't come down and strike people down with lightning. He uses people, to accomplish His goals. People. And He gives His PEOPLE the tools necessary, to do their job. There is a very strong case Biblically, for self defense, and the carrying of Weapons. I carry a handgun almost everywhere I go, including church, and if I think its ok for me to do so, then I have no problem with the pastor packing either.

 

Ok just to clarify, I said the Lord's Angels will suffice. The Lord's angels operate when we give them something to work with, and that it through prayer. Having faith without praying is futile. It is possible for an Apostle, Pastor and any leader to be armed if He does not Pray. So as it relates to your argument regarding Apostles being gunned down, it is highly possible that they did not cover themselves prior to the attack. The title that anyone wears in the body of Christ, does not guarantee one's protection. But prayer does...always....and in that way the Lord's angels do suffice.

11 hours ago, LadyKay said:

Well I've been reading the post here and I am sort of confused as to what is being asked. Is it wrong for pastor to carry a gun? Is that the question that is being asked?  If so I do not see why it would be wrong for a pastor to carry a gun.  Are you saying that a pastor that carries a gun is show a lack of faith? I think  this would fall under a personal choice thing. 

13 hours ago, warrior12 said:

A pastor needs a sword, which is the word of GOD.   Yes, he is flesh and blood, but above that he is a spiritual man, who does not fear man and is not afraid of he who can kill the body  and not the soul, but he who can kill both  body and soul.   As the saying goes, everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.   

Matthew 10King James Version (KJV)

²⁸ And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

My point exactly Warrior12. If the Shepherd is afraid, what does he expect the sheep to do?

1 minute ago, worthy said:

Even Christ told Peter to buy a sword and Christ is the creator of all things 

Luke 22:36

³⁶ He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Hmmm, was Jesus referring to 'sword' as a physical weapon? 

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

It all depends on what your view is on guns.

A physical type of weapon...

1 minute ago, HisFirst said:

Specifically pastors and guns?

Or Believers in general?

What about Christian Police and weapons?

 

I considered the Pastors seeing that they are in charge of church assets, and so on. In light of them teaching us to use faith (Our Shepherds), what is your reaction to them carrying guns? 

Just now, Yowm said:

Equally, should a congregation have armed security?

Yowm, that was actually my next question...so I think you know what my answer is...lol

I don't believe Pastors need a gun because the Lord's angels can suffice. What are your thoughts and why?

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello Srdn, I read your post very carefully, and I am blessed. 

This part that you highlighted, that Jesus said I am here to do the will of the Father, or my Father who is in Heaven , and also to reveal the Father to you. 

(This is in reference that now the Holy Spirit, gives witness of Jesus, and reveals the Savior to people , glorifies Jesus and not his own self). 

Paul said it in this strong fashion that the Spirit is the Lord. The Spirit is here for the Lord Jesus , and takes from Jesus , it gives glory to JESUS for anything it does. 

The same thing that Jesus said what I do glorifies the Father, because it is the will of the Father to do what I do. 

(For Jesus is deferent thought because he said , the Father loves me and if I ask him something he will do it. 

Of course the people can not see that or know that so Jesus had to tell them, for more than one reason.

He was telling the people that they do not know the Heavenly Father , that no one in the past has known the Heavenly Father that he is the first one and his mission is to reveal the Heavenly Father to them, that the time has come that the Heavenly Father wants to reveal him self to them, but he will not do it on his own, because he is in Heaven and he will never leave the Heavens. His Throne is in Heaven and he rules the Heavens. 

(Till the time that made Jesus the Lord of Lord and gave him all authority in Heaven and earth)

Jesus is telling them that the Lord God who is the Father of the Israelites and he had revealed himself to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses and all the people in mount Sinai and we heard his confession that he is the creator of all and man, and he call they Israelites his children and they called him their Father , and he was only for them and not for the other nations of the earth, and he set them apart from the rest of the world, that he was not the Heavenly Father. 

Jesus is telling them that he has come to reveal to them the one they never had the Heavenly Father .

Right there Jesus is telling them about the Heavenly inheritance which will be revealed .

He knew that when he dies on the Cross the children of above will be revealed born from him, and he was taken above and so his children , but only after they shed of their eartly dwelling at the time of their death . 

Jesus is telling that we will go to be in the  Heavens with the Father, that was part of his mission to take us there, to reveal the Heavenly Father his Father as our Father in his name.

Jesus is telling the people that he is not earthly that he is Heavenly .

That he is as they are but he is not the seed from an earthly Father. 

The works of the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus. 

 

Wow! Well said...

6 minutes ago, StanJ said:

Yes the Holy Spirit is God and is Co-Equal & Co-Eternal with Jesus and the Father. There is no hierarchy in God but there is an order in God.  No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him and no man can come to the Father unless it is through Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit only comes to those who have confessed Jesus as their Lord & Savior and have received Him in baptism.

Exactly...by the way I stand corrected to the word 'order' rather than 'hierarchy' :).

22 minutes ago, Walter and Deborah said:

John 14:26 is talking about: He bequeaths his peace to them, and fortifies them against discouragements, and us who has his holy spirit in todays life of issues. John 14:26 The Comforter which is The Holy Ghost.

1 minute ago, StanJ said:

Sorry,  but again the Holy Spirit and Jesus, glorify God and God in turn will or has glorified them. I know this sounds kind of technical but it's based on what the New Testament teaches us about who glorifies God and why. We as Believers are also called to glorify God in our lives and as such we do so by living a Christ-like existence.  Glorify means to reveal or make God clearer to the world by our actions.  As a Christian, it is presupposed that God ALONE is Worthy. Rev 4:11

 

SanJ, I've learnt that the Holy Spirit is God, Christ is God and God is God and so when we say 'God alone is worthy' we refer to all three. But where the hierarchy exists in the Godhead is the fact that we Christians have to go through a channel in getting to know God the Father; we first have to know the person of the Holy Spirit who will in turn teach us about the personality of Jesus who in turn teaches about the personality of God the Father. Now that Jesus has returned to the Father, the person who reveals or makes Jesus clearer to us is the Holy Spirit. 

This is the reason my short answer to the question is that the Holy Spirit functions as the Person who 'glorifies' or reveals Jesus to us. I believe that our ultimate goal as Christians is to know God the Father and the way to knowing Him is by revelation from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It is safe to say that all three have their unique personalities otherwise both Jesus and the Father would not need to come to us like Jesus promised in John 14:23. If they both have the exact 'personality' then I would think that the Father could save Himself that time by sending Jesus alone to make a home with us.

41 minutes ago, StanJ said:

 sorry, but this is a misconception of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in John 14:26;

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you."

The Holy Spirit came to replace Jesus on Earth while Jesus is in heaven and when Jesus returns to earth the Holy Spirit will return to heaven.  The persons of the Trinity are co-equal & co-eternal.

 

The Holy Spirit 'glorifies' Jesus... By this I mean praising and worshiping....and worshiping is to give worth to someone. Notice that throughout the book of John, Jesus does not give worth to Himself but gives worth to the Father and the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit  causes us to remember everything Jesus has said John 14:26 and so on.... He is in other words giving 'worth' to Jesus. By teaching about Jesus the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus.

In everything that the Holy Spirit does, He brings glory to Jesus our King which is why persons like myself believe that the Holy Spirit 'glorifies' Jesus. 

I am open to learning more about this StanJ...

Walter & Deborah, The Holy Spirit's primary role is to 'glorify Jesus'. This role includes bringing back the things that Jesus spoke when he was here to memory John 14:26. When the Holy Spirit teaches, He teaches us about the person of Jesus and Jesus said that He [the Holy Spirit] will not speak on His own authority. In other words, His primary role is to glorify the person above Him in the Godhead, and that person is Jesus.