Quasar93

There is a great number of those who can and do field arguments for a young earth age, from their diligent efforts to do so. From the preponderance of articles posted here, in full support of an old earth age, you are but one of many, who have no argument in opposition, except opinion. Either prove those articles to be wrong, or your views have been thoroughly refuted. Your personal attack on me is noted, and provides me with the caliber of Christian you are. Quasar93

The preponderance of evidence for an old earth age does not come from me, but from trained and studied professionals who have provided us with their research and evidence. That you don't buy it, is of no concern of mine. That there were multitudes who didn't buy Jesus ministry, is a very sad case as well. Quasar93

I have already provided you with a preponderance of evidence fully supporting an old earth age to nothing at all from you, With an argument you use about no death on earth, until the time of Adam, attempting to use the facts of the present age to fit the age before. It doesn't work that way. Quasar93

And I answered your claims with the Scriptures posted directly from the Torah, in both English as well as in Hebrew. There is no difference in the meaning of Gen.1:1-2 in the KJV; the NASB, or the NIV than that which is written in the Torah - or the Tanakh. Let me see you prove your case against the preponderance of articles already posted that refute you. Quasar93

You are in denial of the evidence provided by trained scientists, you offer argument by opinion to. Let me see your Scriptural evidence we are living on a young earth. So far, you have no viable argument at all. Quasar93

Right on. sis. That is precisely what it is. Quasar93

Hi sis, There is a preponderance of evidence for humankind being on earth before Adam. The following link has already been posted once before, I think, on this thread. It is a lengthy read, and you can access it in the following: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/was-there-life-on-earth-before-adam-t3395164.html Quasar93

The above is opinion that is completely meaningless in any effort you field without scriptural and scientific evidence to support your claims, proving the preponderance of evidence already posted that refute you. Qyasar93

When you read the article, it will tell you. In addition, with the tests run on the evidence discovered being 400,000 years old, what logic are you using that it isn't older than Adam, who could not be any older than 6,000 years? Quasar93

The Scriptures fully support two global floods whereas geological science and astrophysics prove an old earth age. Meaningless opinion does not impress me, either. Let me see you prove the Scriptures supporting two global floods to be false, that refute you. >>>before his deeds of old; Pr..8:23 :I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; After the earth was flooded the first of two times, in Gen.1:2: Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."<<< The above waters covering the earth in Gen,2 is what the above Scriptures allude to, before, and after it had any oceans at all. The second global flood of Noah, some 1,600 years later, is recorded in Gen.7. Quasar93

In a previous post, I said I EARNED my qualifications to teach the Bible, which constitutes the degrees to do so. Not just Bible classes. Most Christians respect those who have diligently sought the innermost depths of the Scriptures, in order to share what they have learned with those who seek greater knowledge of the Scriptures. The following are the Scriptures that fully support the first flood that God restored/created the six day creation out of. The second global flood of Noah, appears in Gen.7, some 1,600 years later. >>>before his deeds of old; Pr..8:23 :I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; After the earth was flooded the first of two times, in Gen.1:2: Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."<<< Qusar93

Prairie Bible Institute, Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty university, Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, TX. And where, may I ask, did you earn yours, to teach the Bible? Quasar93

From Rev.21-22, the final two verses of the Bible state the following: "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Rev.22:21-22 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.[d] Amen." Quasar93

The oldest human DNA ever recovered is throwing scientists for a loop: The 400,000-year-old genetic material comes from bones that have been linked to Neanderthals in Spain — but its signature is most similar to that of a different ancient human population from Siberia, known as the Denisovans.The researchers who did the analysis said their findings show an "unexpected link" between two of our extinct cousin species.Follow-up studies could crack the mystery — not only for the early humans who lived in the cave complex known as Sima de los Huesos (Spanish for "Pit of Bones"), but for other mysterious populations in the Pleistocene epoch."Ancient DNA sequencing techniques have become sensitive enough to warrant further investigation of DNA survival at sites where Middle Pleistocene hominins are found," the research team, led by Matthias Meyer and Svante Pääbo of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, wrote in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. ("Hominin" is the currently accepted term for humans and our close evolutionary cousins.)As anthropologists are getting better at extracting DNA from ancient bones, genetic mysteries are cropping up more frequently: Last month, researchers at scientific meetings talked about not-yet-published findings that hinted at interbreeding among Neanderthals, Denisovans and previously unknown populations of early humans.A new standardThe age of the mitochondrial DNA analyzed for the Nature study sets a new standard: Researchers used statistical analysis of the DNA and other samples to estimate that the material was roughly 400,000 years old. That meshed with the estimated age for similar DNA extracted from bear bones found in the same cave.More than 6,000 human fossils, representing about 28 individuals, have been recovered from the Sima de los Huesos site, a hard-to-get-to cave chamber that lies about 100 feet (30 meters) below the surface in northern Spain. The fossils are unusually well-preserved, thanks in part to the undisturbed cave's constant cool temperature and highFor the complete article: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/400-000- ... 2D11690925Quasar93

The term, "Maranatha," is what Thomas Ice, PhD, uses after the articles he writes and I wouldn't think of imposing on his initiation of using it as such, in a proprietary way. Quasar93

Yes, Having been a student of the Biblical Scriptures over the past 80 years, together with qualifications earned from three Bible Colleges, to teach the Bible, my understanding of the Scriptures is pretty well established. By the same token, you should consider a reevaluation of your own understanding of them. Review the following for more evidence for an old earth age. Overwhelming Evidence All the geological and paleontological evidence PROVES beyond the slightest scintilla of a doubt that THERE WAS A WORLD BEFORE ADAM. Most of the dating techniques of scientists -- uranium-argon, potassium-thorium, racemization and thermaluminescence -- as well as observation and logic conclusively show that the rocks under our feet, the bones of ancient animals, and even the charcoal campfires of Paleo-Indians, Neanderthal man, and other ancient hominid remains, are MUCH OLDER than 6,000 years. There was a world before Adam. In fact, there were MANY ages before Adam, and these ages can be carefully distinguished through the study of paleontology, paleo-ecology, and related scientific disciplines. The evidence is INDISPUTABLE. Many independent dating techniques demonstrate that various hominid creatures lived about 500,000 years ago. More primitive types lived as long ago as 1-2,000,000 years. Those creatures, in some cases, were FAMILIAR with fire, used crude chipped stone tools such as hand axes, notched and saw-toothed implements, scrapers, engravers. They were PRE-ADAMIC CREATURES living in a PRE-ADAMIC WORLD. A world which ended in a great catastrophe. And before their time, OTHER worlds existed. The world of the dinosaurs ended about 70,000,000 years ago. That world, too, ended in a cosmic catastrophe. The pre-Adamic world was a world of growth, change, and progress. It was a world where new life forms were introduced from time to time. The fact that this world has been in existence for many millions of years is no longer a matter for debate. It is academic. Any serious author, today, must face squarely the many indications of time found in the geological record. Neo-Creationists believe we must choose either the Bible or science, particularly scientific dating methods. One typical Neo-Creationist argues: "The Bible-believing scientist must face squarely the question, In the area of natural science which shall supersede, the clear assertions of God's inspired Book, or modern man's interpretation of what he thinks he sees in nature?" This particular author continues: "According to Bible chronology only a few thousand years have passed since the creation of the ancestors of our modern plants and animals...Contrariwise, if one accepts the assumption that the inorganic radioisotope clocks were reset wherever they became associated with fossil-bearing material, then apparently at least 600 million years have passed since plants and animals first appeared successively from that time over a duration of some 600 million years" (Frank Lewis Marsh, Life, Man and Time, pp. 67-68). The truth is, there is NO CONTRADICTION between the Biblical record and scientific knowledge of the earth's past. Those who wish to uphold the Bible in the face of new evidence regarding early hominids, homo erectus, homo habilis, or other discoveries of Primitive Man-like creatures, need not worry. There is NO EVIDENCE that such creatures evolved into Modern man. Rather, they lived long ago in a world BEFORE ADAM WAS CREATED -- another world -- another age -- another time. Such discoveries tell us much about the ancient history of the earth. They tell us nothing, one way or the other, about the Scriptures. Creation and Recreation In the pages of Genesis, as it relates to the original creation of the universe, we read the simple, matter-of-fact statement: "In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1, King James Version). The Amplified Bible renders this verse: "In the beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned,) and created the heavens and the earth." The Good News Bible states: "In the beginning, when God created the universe..." The Moffatt Translation: "When God began to form the universe..." The Goodspeed Translation: "When God began to create the heavens and the earth..." What exactly does the book of Genesis tell us? That YEHOVAH God created the universe -- the heavens and the earth -- in a period of time called, simply, "the beginning." How long ago that primeval creation occurred we are not told anywhere in the Scripture. To determine that, YEHOVAH God has given us brains and intellect! That time of beginning could well have been six to ten billion years ago. Astronomers calculate that a "Big Bang" took place at that time, out of which the entire cosmos was created. Verse two of Genesis, chapter one, continues: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (King James Version). Is this verse describing the ORIGINAL creation as being formless and void? If so, it would seem a contradiction. Verse one tells us YEHOVAH created the heavens and the earth. When YEHOVAH creates something, it is beautiful, grand, and majestic. In the 38th chapter of the book of Job, we read: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (vs. 4-7). If the original earth had been created a chaotic ruin, formless and void, the angels would not have "sang together" or have "shouted for joy." Isaiah 45:18 adds more light on this enigmatic passage. The prophet declares: "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else" (King James Version). The Hebrew word translated "vain" here is tohu and means "to lie waste," "a desolation," "a desert." It can also be translated "confusion," "empty place," "without form," "nothing," "wilderness." It is the very same word used in Genesis 1:2, where we read the earth "was without form." One place says YEHOVAH God created the earth and it "was without form"; in another place we read YEHOVAH did not create the earth "without form." Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The KEY to understanding this apparently complex problem lies in the little word "was." It can also be translated "BECAME." In fact, in Genesis 19:16 it is translated "became." We read: "And Lot's wife became a pillar of salt." What happened, then, is this: When YEHOVAH God originally created the earth, it was indeed a lovely place. He created it with no waste, no wilderness, no desolation. It was inhabited. The angels leaped for joy, and shouted with admiration and enthusiasm when they beheld the primeval earth. But then something happened. It became "tohu" -- that is, waste, a ruin, a desolation. The original earth suffered a great cataclysm -- a cosmic catastrophe. The Hebrew words translated "without form and void" in Genesis 1:2 literally mean a desolation, a wilderness, an empty, uninhabited ruin. These words, tohu and bohu are very strong words and denote CATASTROPHE. They strongly suggest that some sort of primeval cataclysm, or several such cataclysms, occurred. Destruction! Paroxysm! Chaos! Scripture gives no data for determining HOW LONG AGO the universe was created. And in the first chapter of Genesis, it only records THREE creative acts: 1) the heavens and the earth (verse 1); 2) new animal life (verses 20-21); and 3) human life, Adam and Eve (verses 26-27). The first creative act referred to the DATELESS PAST. The creation of NEW forms of animal life, and Adam and Eve, occurred approximately 6,000 YEARS AGO. Obviously, then, the first chapter of Genesis is not describing the original creation of the heavens and earth as occurring in seven consecutive days. After the chaos and destruction which occurred, in verse two of Genesis one, YEHOVAH God began a process of re-creation, reconstruction, if you please, which lasted for seven days. Verse 16 of Genesis one does NOT describe the sun and moon and stars being created on the fourth day. How could light have been created on the first day, but the sun and stars which IMPART LIGHT not till the fourth day? The original Hebrew for "made" in verse 16 actually means "made to appear, made visible." The sun and moon were created "in the beginning." The light came from the sun, of course, but the VAPOR in the earth's atmosphere diffused the light. After the great cataclysm, the earth was cut off from the light of the sun, moon and stars. Darkness prevailed everywhere. As verse two says: "And the earth was (BECAME) without form and void (TOHU and BOHU); and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." What do we see then? An earth destroyed, in pitch darkness, covered by water, the continents submerged, due to some great cataclysm. During the process of RECONSTRUCTION or RE-CREATION, YEHOVAH God first caused the light from the sun to penetrate the atmosphere once again, in a DIFFUSED manner (Genesis 1:3-5), allowing day and night to become discernible. He created order in the atmosphere (verses 6-8). He caused the dry land to appear once again (verse 10). He caused the earth to once again bring forth life, plants, vegetation, of all kinds. As the turgid clouds and atmospheric disturbances cleared away, He caused the sun, moon and stars to once again become visible from the earth's surface (verses 14-18). Then, having REFASHIONED the surface of the earth, and having prepared it, YEHOVAH created NEW living creatures -- NEW animal life of all kinds, from great whales to small fish, from elephants to rodents, from flying birds to flying fish and insects -- to REPOPULATE the earth, and to REPLENISH it (verses 20-25). Something had happened to the Pre-Adamic earth. It had been overwhelmed in a MIGHTY CATASTROPHE, or a long series of catastrophes, which is briefly described in verse 2 of Genesis chapter 1. But what happened? The world before Adam came to an ABRUPT, screeching end. It was cut short by flooding and upheaval, stroke upon stroke of catastrophe. This one short enigmatic, much misunderstood verse of the Bible, contains within its cryptic message a story that will amaze you. This one little verse may hold a CLUE as to what happened to the earth, after the original time when it was created, beautiful, and to be "inhabited," and before the time of Adam and Eve, when it had to be refashioned, reshaped, refurbished, and rebuilt. This one verse, in essence, may cover a time span of MILLIONS of years. If YEHOVAH God originally created the earth six to ten billion years ago, and over millions of years created VARIOUS and sundry life forms, causing them to become buried in massive burials to form deposits of coal, peat, and oil and natural gas; if He spent millions of years preparing the world for the eventual time when He would create Man IN HIS OWN IMAGE [not some amorphous BLOB]; who are we to complain? Vast Periods of Time? Vast periods of time, and many successive ecological niches, had to exist in the earth, for algal reefs of hundreds of feet to grow in place. Much time was required for vast quantities of vegetation to live, grow, and die, and to become entombed, to create vast deposits of coal in Kansas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia and Pennsylvania. This vast period of time YEHOVAH put to good use. As Robert Macdonald shows, in a paper entitled Geology: "The fossil record contains hundreds of zones, each with its own particular faunal assemblage. What is the chance that such an invariant worldwide sequence of life forms could be built up if they all lived CONTEMPORANEOUSLY, and the sequence in which they are found were only a burial order? How could a burial order based not on water sorting, but on environments do the job?... "Suppose that in a worldwide catastrophe, one group of organisms were brought in from one area and deposited, then another assemblage from another area were deposited on top of that, and so on. A local sequence of life forms would be built up. But the chances would be against the deposition of fossils in the same order in a local sequence in another area. Consider the chance that the same order would occur in all sequences worldwide. It would be NIL! "There is NO WAY to account for the sequence in faunal succession by ONE catastrophe. Nor is there any way to account for this sequence by a SERIES of catastrophes, or by a LONG DRAWN-OUT catastrophe. If all these Paleozoic and Mesozoic organisms were contemporaneous, there would inevitably have been some mixing of early and late forms. "The ONLY explanation is that each geologic horizon does indeed represent a DIFFERENT time in the past during which a unique assemblage of life forms was living and being deposited in many parts of the world. Slow or incremental deposition is therefore essential to give time for worldwide changes in populations of fauna whose remains preserved as fossils vary from one stratum to another." During the geologic ages of the earth's past, life went on in a normal fashion for millions of years. Fossil reefs obviously grew in the place in which they are found. Standing trees, with their roots in place, tracks and trails both on land and on the sea bottoms, layer upon layer containing burrows and borings made by animals just as they do in the sea-bottoms today, all show that most of the geologic column was created OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS, not in the Flood of Noah's time, or some other isolated catastrophe. Although the record in the earth's strata clearly shows that great catastrophes did take place, in the earth's past, the record also shows that there were periods of millions of years in which no violent cataclysms occurred. During these calm, relatively nonviolent periods, great CREATIVE PROCESSES were going on. Cyclothems of coal were formed. As Macdonald points out, coal is commonly found in a sequence of beds called a cyclothem -- a cycle of beds repeated over and over again, perhaps dozens of times. Much time would be needed for such deposits to be made, one on top of another.For the rest of this article, go to: http://hope-of-israel.org/lifeadam.htmOriginally edited by: John D. Keyser.Hope of Israel Ministries -- Preparing the Way for the Return of YEHOVAH God and His Messiah!This material is from: Hope of Israel Ministries P.O. Box 2186 Temple City, CA 91780, U.S.A. www.hope-of-israel.org

Regrding Proverbs 8:22-36: Reference is to the time before, the creation of and existing earth, BEFORE the pre-Adamic or the Noahic floods took place. A review of Rev.21 reveals the eternal state of the earth will once gain be without oceans. Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV]."The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life andreceives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3 Quasar93

I suggest you both review the following Scriptures again. There is no question whatever, the earth was standing in water BEFORE God began the six days of creation. Obviously had nothing to do with the flood of Noah, some 1,600 years later. before his deeds of old; Pr..8:23 :I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; After the earth was flooded the first of two times, in Gen.1:2: Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." Quasar93

There is no change now in what the Scriptures said, than when I wrote them the first time, that refute you. From the Torah, that out English translations came from: Gen.1:1 and 2 from the Torah: 1In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth. אבְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ 2Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water. Quasar93 [For whatever reason, the two verses cannot be brought together with the browsers I have to do so. My apology.] I will respond to your remark about Proverbs 8 in another post. בוְהָאָ֗רֶץ הָֽיְתָ֥ה תֹ֨הוּ֙ וָבֹ֔הוּ וְח֖שֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י תְה֑וֹם וְר֣וּחַ אֱלֹהִ֔ים מְרַחֶ֖פֶת עַל־פְּנֵ֥י הַמָּֽיִם

In Mt.24:31 we read the following Scripture: "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." NIV. First of all, for those who want to review a study of Conditional Election as compared to Unconditional election, a good source for both can be found in the following: For Conditional election: http://www.gotquestions.org/conditional-election.html For Unconditional election: http://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html IMO, in order for us to become one of God's elect, we must first come to a believing faith in Jesus Christ, who is the reconciling factor of God justifying us as one of His elect, according to Rom.5:9-11. Who all then become members of the one body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, His Church, according to 1 Cor.12:12-13. Since God knows the end from the beginning of all things, He knew this before the foundation of the world, according to Isa.46:10. "...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." according to 2 Pet.3:9. A review of Job 2:1-6 is what appears to be an exact duplication of what has and still is going on between God and Satan for the very souls of mankind. With the bottom line being, Job is the one who made his decision for God, who then richly rewarded him for it in the end. So what about Israel, who rejected Jesus as their Messiah during His first advent? In Isa.45:4 the following is written: "For Jacob, my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by name; I have surnamed thee, though though hast not known me." KJV. However, Israel does not come to know Him, i.e. Jesus, as their Messiah until the 70th and final Week of Dan.9:27/the seven year tribulation is nearly over, as recorded in Zech.12:10, as related to Jesus second advent, seen in Zech.14:4-5. When "All [A remnant of only one third of them according to Zech.13:8] of Israel will be saved." fulfilling Rom.11:26. Something seen in Zech.14:5, raises the next issue with the following statement: "...Then the Lord my God will come with all His holy ones with Him." What that means can be better illuminated in Rev.19:14, where the following is recorded: "The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean," who are the saints, the one body of Christ, His Church. So how did the Church get into heaven? It pertains to the time when the one body of Christ, His Church will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the sky, according to 1 Thes.4:16-17, known and called, the rapture of the Church. Which will take place before the 70th Week/seven year tribulation begins, according to 2 Thes.2:1-8. As Jesus taught in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and noted by Paul in 1 Thes.4:15, where he wrote: "According to the Lord's own word..." Meaning the Church is seen returning with Jesus and His angels when He returns to the earth in His second advent, When Mt.24:31 and Rev.19:14 are combined. Back to Mt.24:31 for a closer look at the interpretation of who the elect are: "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." IMO, the angels are gathering the elect of Israel who have at this point recognized Jesus as their Messiah, according to Zech.12:10, and are being gathered from the four winds. Who then are those being gathered from one end of the heavens to the other? They are the elect saints, the one body of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, His Church, being gathered in heaven, to return with Him to the earth according to Zech.14:4-5 and Rev.19:14. Where they will be after being caught up to be with the Lord Jesus and our Father in heaven according to Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:16-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, before the seven year tribulation begins. So we have found the ELECT, according to the Scriptures, are all those who receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior with the Church being the first, from Pentecost to the present day, followed by all Israel near the end of the coming seven year tribulation, when they finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah. From where both will enter into Jesus Millennial kingdom here on the earth, fulfilling Jesus prophecy in Jn.10:16, when there will be one fold with one Shepherd. Quasar93

The fact of the matter is, the Scriptures contradict such a statement, as recorded below: before his deeds of old; Pr..8:23 :I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; After the earth was flooded the first of two times, in Gen.1:2: Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." Quasar93

Yes, that is what is meant by , "when the times of the gentiles has come in," as recorded in Rom.11:25. Quasar93

A Young - or Old Earth Age ?First of all, in Gen.1:1, God created the heavens and the earth, but nowhere in the six day creation narrative do you find when they were created. The term create is not found again, until the fifth and sixth days, providing a possible clue as to the earth having been restored from an earlier age than our own that suffered destruction before Adam. When reading Pr.8:24 [NIV], and you will find the earth stood at one time without oceans or water of any kind. But God set the boundaries of the oceans, so they would not overstep His command, by constantly over running the landfall coastlines, in vs 29. [A good look at the creation facts can be found in Pr.8:22-36]. Yet, in Gen,1:2, the earth stood completely in a flood of water, which evoked comments from both David, in Ps.24:2 and Peter in 2 Pet.3:5, that the world had been created from that water. But the fact is, Pr.8:24 and 29 reveal that was not the fact of the situation at all, as you can read from the Scriptures. According to Gen.1:14-19, the fourth "day" of the creation, God made "two great lights," the sun and the moon. Now keep in mind, these are the "24 hour days," as understood by the terms God used when He created time itself, for the benefit of mankind, when the sun and the moon were created. Thus, the use of those "days" being 24 hours each is completely presumptuous and does not by any means equate into the literal time it took God to complete the six "days" of His creation.For example, let's have a look at some of those stars He created in "Day" four, as follows:In the King James Version of the Bible, Arcturus is mentioned twice in the Book of Job: "Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south." Job: 9:9 Arcturus was formed in the halo of the Milky Way and is an interloper in our neighborhood. It has been visible to the naked eye for only about half a million years. It will be a little closer in a few thousand years, but then will recede from our view in another half million years as it continues its journey on a different orbital path. Orion, appearing as a fuzzy object in Orion's sword, the Orion Nebula is the most famous stellar nursery in the Galaxy. It is a cloud of gas and dust that has spawned a cluster containing more than 3,000 stars, the hottest of which make the nebula glow. Consequently, the Orion Nebula is visible to the unaided eye--despite a distance from Earth that most authorities put at 1,500 or 1,600 light-years.But the true distance is much less than this, according to new work by Rob Jeffries at Keele University in England. He exploited the rotation of G (yellow), K (orange), and M (red) stars in the Orion Nebula cluster to deduce that they are only about 1,300 light-years distant.According to Hillenbrand, the old distance to the Orion Nebula gave an age for its stars of slightly under 1 million years. The new distance, says Jeffries, raises the age by 70 percent, which means the Orion Nebula cluster is about 1.5 million years old.The Pleiades also known as M45 or the Seven Sisters, is the name of an open cluster in the constellation of Taurus. It is among the nearest to the Earth of all open clusters, probably the best known and certainly the most striking to the naked eye. This asterism is sometimes referred to as the Maia Nebula, perhaps erroneously considering that the reflection nebulosity surrounding Maia is extrinsic.The cluster is dominated by hot blue stars, which have formed within the last 100 million years. Dust that forms faint reflection nebulosity around the brightest stars was thought at first to be left over from the formation of the cluster but is now known to be an unrelated dust cloud that the stars are currently passing through. Astronomers estimate that the cluster will survive for about another 250 million years, when it will have dispersed due to gravitational interactions with the spiral arms of the galaxy and giant molecular clouds.The above should provide sufficient evidence, in and of but only one "day," they could not have possible been only 24 hours.This does not mean it changes a single thing in our belief in God's word. When you reflect on the above facts alone, we should all be able to clearly see how it would be for us trying to understand the mind of God, instead of the simple human way in how He described it.Scriptural clues to an old earth age The apostle Paul makes a couple of interesting comments about the ages. In Eph.2:7 he said:"in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."Then in Eph.3:9 he said this:"and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things."Let's have a look at what the apostle Paul might have been alluding to in the 'past ages' he referred to in Eph.3:9.In Pr.8:22-25 [NIV] we are told: "I was appointed from eternity [The pre-incarnat spirit of Jesus], from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth," He was 'the Craftsman at the Father's side.' Pr.8:30.Then a look at the next scenario we read in Gen.1:2: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."There is evidence here that the earth had a flood before the creation of Adam. So we know there were two floods instead of just the one of Noah's time. See Ps.24:2 and 2 Pet.3:5.Please note that Peter goes on to say in verse 6:"By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed."He is talking about the waters of the time God hovered over the surface of the deep. Not about Noah's flood. Peter made it clear, the world of that time was destroyed. That did not happen during Noah's flood as there was both human, animal and sea life preserved.Note this also about the creation: Gen.1:1 said God created the heavens and the earth. There is no day of the six referred to later in which this event took place. The word create or created does not appear again - from Gen:1:1 until the fifth day when He created the creatures of the air and the sea. Then again on the sixth day when He created the animals and man. Everything else had been created previously and was restored.That there was darkness described in Gen.1:2 - makes it clear, a cataclysmic event of volcanic action, meteor strikes upon the earth, etc., [All scientifically proven. Have a look at our moon for crater strikes] had the earth in utter darkeness. That God is all light with no darkness in Him - when He said let there be light - it was His own light, until he cleared the atmosphere enough for the sun, moon and stars to be seen from earth again on the fourth day. References to the completion of one of God's days - that 'there was evening and there was morning,' by no means meant a 24 hour period of time. But rather that 1,000 years could have easily been in between both. See Ps.90:4 and 2 Pet.3:8. As for the 24 hour a day time frame we have - it didn't exist until God said, 'Let there be lights,' on the fourth day. So how could a 24 hour day exist until then?We know that angels, cherubim, seraphim, Satan and the sons of God were all created before our present age. The sons of God (Gen.6:2 and 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 are not angels - as the NIV mistranslates them - as angels were not given to procreate. Mt.22:30).The term 'sons of God' is used in connection with all born again Christians in Jn.1:12; Rom.8:14; 2 Cor.6:18; Heb.2:10, 12:5; Jas.1:18 and 1 Jn.3:1. Depending upon the translation you may be reading - that passage could also read - 'children of God.'This should explain a few of the Biblical facts pertaining to the very old age of the earth as well as the existence of dinosaurs and prehistoric animal fossils found since the middle of the 19th century.Additional input: http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung ... _flood.htmhttp://www.raptureready.com/rr-planet.html Quasar93

More Scriptural support for an old earth age: Before the earth was flooded in the first of two global floods, in Gen.1:2: Proverbs 8:22-29: "22 Lord[c][d] before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. 24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. After the earth was flooded the first of two times, in Gen.1:2: Ps.24:1 "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; 2for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters." 2 Pet.3:5 "For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." The Scriptures do not relegate the six days of creation to 24 hour days: Ps.90:4 "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." 2 Pet.3:8 "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." Quasar93

[Or one creation; destruction and restoration for days 1-4 and new creation for days 5-6] Here is startling proof -- from the Bible and geology -- demonstrating not only two widely separated creations, but two world-wide destructions! Few have understood this astonishing truth! Now, it stands revealed for all to see! Now for the first time, one of history's most fascinating stories can be told. The KEY to understanding the amazing history of the earth has been discovered. Contrary to what millions have been led to believe -- the true facts of science and the truth of your Bible agree! Theologians have long kept hidden this surprising truth. It conflicts with their theology. Atheistic professors have suppressed it. Science has refused to believe it. Only a few understand where the key which unlocks the amazing geologic history of the earth is. It has been in the FIRST TWO VERSES OF YOUR BIBLE all these years -- and you probably never noticed it..... Proof of Pre-Adamic Flood Notice the true facts of geology. The pre-Adamic catastrophe involved water. Laid down first by the swirling waters were the smaller sea creatures. They appear in the deepest sedimentary layers. The larger creatures of the land, by comparison, were able to flee to the higher hills. They were not drowned until the rising floodwaters spread over, then covered, the entire earth. Evolutionary geologists have discerned proof of this pre-Adamic flood. They know that rising floodwaters first swept up the ocean-bottom dwellers, the trilobites and the brachiopods, and other shell creatures of the sea. These ocean-bottom dwellers were scattered over wide areas. Later other sedimentary rocks with land life were laid down on top of them. That is exactly why fossils of sea creatures, such as the trilobite, SUDDENLY APPEAR as fossils in the DEEPEST sedimentary rocks. Not knowing the Bible reveals a pre-Adamic catastrophe destroyed all life, an amazed evolutionary geologist exclaimed, "... the SUDDEN APPEARANCE of ABUNDANT FOSSILS in the Cambrian {lowest rocks in which life is found} is remarkable" (Dunbar, "Historical Geology", p. 125). {Emphasis ours in entire article.} Why were these evolutionary geologists astounded to discover that complex fossils appear suddenly in the deepest sedimentary rocks? The theory of evolution has led the geologists to assume the older and deeper rocks were laid down over many millions of years. They assumed that in the deepest rocks they would find very simple fossil remains of evolving forms. Obviously, because of the theory of evolution they expected to find simple fossil forms that clearly showed the steps of evolution taking place. Because evolution has never taken place, they failed to find simple pre-trilobite forms! As the well-known evolutionary geologist Stokes said, "... we do not understand why fossils of marine invertebrates (without backbones) suddenly became plentiful ..." (Stokes, "Essentials of Earth History", p. 186) By L. E. Torrance. [Edit by Quasar: Scriptural facts supporting the above: Gen.1:2; 7:20; 8:3-5; Psalms 24:2; 2 Pet.3:5-6 and Proverbs 8:24]. "But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed." 2 Pet.3:5-6 NIV. From: http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/flood.htm Quasar93