Quasar93

Jesus parable in Lk.16:19-31 is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell. There are two locations in it, separated by a wide chasm, making it impossible for the wicked, the rich man, section to crossover to the righteous, where Abraham and Lazarus are. The section for the righteous, is not called Paradise anywhere in the Bible. Jesus related to the thief on the cross, in Lk.23:43, of being in Paradise with Him that very day. Where Paradise is seen as heaven No on went to heaven during OT times, except Enoch and Elijah, because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, as recorded in Heb.10:4. Not until Jesus provided atonement for sins, by shedding His blood and dying on a cross. Quasasr93

Give me an example of my not providing you with Scriptural evidence proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church,you have denied. Or of any of your views I have not rebuked with Scripture. Or where I have attacked you personally, except to say you are in denial of those Scriptural proofs and unable to field a Scripturally based argument refuting that which I have posted proving my Scripturally based views, except for one verse. If you are calling my charging you with your posts containing meaningless opinion, as attacking you, then you are right. By the same token, your last post is an example of you doing the very same thing. This response comes to you because of the trash talk it contains. What you have provided out of your views pertaining to a pre-trib rapture of the Church, is a failure to the Scriptures that refute them. Quasar93

No one went to heaven during OT times, as I previously posted, except Enoch and Elijah. The parable of Jesus, in Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell, during OT times. It is divided by a huge chasm between the wicked and the righteous. Where all the spirit/soul's went, who died during OT times. Because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, according to Heb.10:4. That is why Jesus said what He did, that no one has been to heaven except He who has come from there, nor seen the Father, except Him, until after He shed is blood and died on a cross for us all.. The term Paradise used by Jesus, in Lk.23:43, when He told the thief on the cross next to Him, "you will be in Paradise with me this day," was His meaning for heaven, not Sheol. The same place all of us who belong to Jesus will go, when our natural physical body dies, recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirmed in 1 Thess.4:14. Quasar93

Since you make it clear, the Scriptural teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus and His apostles have no meaning to you, my interfacing with you on this subject is terminated. Quasar93

The prophecy in Zech.9 pertains to Jesus second coming when a trump of God will sound. Quasar93

My post responded to pertaining to the sequence of the trump of God, was not a "failure." A repeated: >>> 1 Cor.15 is primarily Paul's teachings about the resurrection, ending with what kind of bodies we will have at that time. Verses 51 through 54 refer mostly to the resurrection but also have rapture implications as well. Such as, "we shall not all sleep," that is seen also in 1 Thess.4:15. Reference to the "last trumpet" [of God], is specific reference to the resurrection, not to the rapture, where the sounding of God's trumpet is seen again, but is not the LAST trump of God, in 1 Thess.4:16. I have already provided you Scriptural proof of the rapture of the Church and the trump of God in 1 Thes.4:16, that will come even years before the last trump of God at the first resurrection. As well as one in between, at Jesus second coming in Zech.9:14. Please tell me what a rapture would possibly serve at Jesus second coming? Show me where you find any Scripture whatever, that has anyone meeting Jesus in the air.<<< As I said before, 1 Cor.15, is primarily the teaching about the resurrection, while the teaching in 1st and 2nd Thess. is about the rapture of the Church. I have provided you with a preponderance of Scriptural proof, the pre-trib rapture position is the only one that is taught in the Scriptures. I am a qualified teacher of the Scriptures, having earned them from three different Bible Colleges, with my service in the USAAF Air Corp during WWII in between. In addition, I have been participating on Christian discussion forums over the past 20 years. I posted a listing of esteemed men o God, from every walk of Christin teachings who fully endorse the pre-trib rapture o the Church, and mirror the view of it I present, with a ingle mind. Quasar93

There is nothing I have posted that provide any other rapture of the Church except the one that will take place before the tribulation begins, according to the Scriptures I have previously provided for you. I'm still waiting for you to provide Scripture proving your claim that the rapture will take place at the second coming of Jesus. I have already shown you the Scriptures that refer to the Church returning from the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, WITH Jesus, when He returns in His second coming. Obviously, from the Scriptures, there is no possibility for a rapture of the Church at Jesus second coming. Quasar93

1 Cor.15 is primarily Paul's teachings about the resurrection, ending with what kind of bodies we will have at that time. Verses 51 through 54 refer mostly to the resurrection but also have rapture implications as well. Such as, "we shall not all sleep," that is seen also in 1 Thess.4:15. Reference to the "last trumpet" [of God], is specific reference to the resurrection, not to the rapture, where the sounding of God's trumpet is seen again, but is not the LAST trump of God, in 1 Thess.4:16. I have already provided you Scriptural proof of the rapture of the Church and the trump of God in 1 Thes.4:16, that will come even years before the last trump of God at the first resurrection. As well as one in between, at Jesus second coming in Zech.9:14. Please tell me what a rapture would possibly serve at Jesus second coming? Show me where you find any Scripture whatever, that has anyone meeting Jesus in the air. Quasar93

The book o Rev. is of prophecy as recorded in Rev.1:3. Rev.17:8 and 11 is about the beast/Antichrist who was, now is not, yet willreturn. Nero is a possibility, not a certainty. Quasar93

I have provided you Scripturl proof the rapture will take place before the tribulation begins, in several places. Speciically in the translation history of 2 Thess.2:3, confirmed in verses 7-8. I have also provided you data pertaining to three trumpet soundings by God One at the time Christ comes for the Church, in 1 Thess.4:16 and seven years later, when He sounds it again in Zech.9:14, in His second coming to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH from their marriage in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and 14, confirming Zech.14:4-5. Quasar93

Let me see your Scriptural based argument proving the Scriptural based teachings of coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is false. Opinion without support to verify it is meaningless. Quasar93

Thanks for an interesting viewpoint. Keep in mind, Rev.13:18 states the the number of the beast, is a man. Here is another view: Is the Antichrist and Number 666 in Hebrew Nero(n)? THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST in Rev.13:18: During Roman occupation it was illegal for citizens to criticise the Roman leadership. If the Jews wanted to criticize, they would have to invent a code language. Babylon for instance was the code for the Roman Empire. The Whore of Babylon would be the name for the Caesar. The heads of the beast would be representative of the power structure of the Roman Empire. 666 would refer to Nero Caesar. In the Hebrew Art of Gematria, every letter has a numeric value. If you convert Nero Caesar to Hebrew and convert it to Gematria you will get the number 666. The Letter N in Hebrew has a value of 50. When you convert Nero in Hebrew, it would be Neron, but some jews would say Nero, meaning it could be 616 or 666. Old manuscripts of the book of Revelations also have 616 instead of 666. Again, this need to use numbers instead of names was used in order to avoid directly criticizing the political establishment for fear of being arrested . If you want a further analysis read the chapter on Revelations in Bart D Ehrman's book: "A historical introduction into early christian writings". Professor Ehrman teaches at the university of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is a textual critic of early Christian Writings. SO TO HEBREW GEMMATRIA WE MUST TURN IF WE ARE TO MAKE SENSE OF THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST BEING THE NUMBER OF A MAN... If we use a Hebrew Aramaic Gemmatrial system (where each Hebrew Letter has a corresponding NUMBER attached) the system works like this: ALEPH =1 = (' ) BETH =2 =B GIMMEL =3 =G DALED =4 =D HEH =5 =H VAV =6 =V and O TSAYIN =7 = Z CHET =8 = CH TET =9 = T YUD =10 = Y or I KAPH =20 = K LAMED =30 = L MEM =40 = M NUN =50 = N SAMEK =60 = S Q'AYIN =70 = 'Q PHE =80 = F TSADEH = 90 = TZ QUPH =100 = Q or K or hard C RESH =200 = R SHIN/SHIN =300 = S or SH TAV =400 = T or TH Since the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Elder (Book of Revelation ) has TWO competing gemmatria for the "name of the beast", and was written during the 1st Jewish War against Rome (AD 66-72) the correct individual would presumably have to fit both 616 and 666 found in the 2 competing manuscript families for this marginal insertion... The Roman Emperor NERO fits the bill nicely (he was the infamous sadistic but "Divine" Emperor-Caesar of Rome in AD 66 when the Revolt in Judaea broke out and used to burn Jews (i.e. Jewish Messianic Christians) in Rome in his gardens by dipping them in tar so they'd be able to light up the courtyard better!) The Emperor Nero's hidden "gemmatrial" (i.e. Kaballistic-numerological) name in Hebrew Letters (with the letter VAV used for LONG O) would have been either written in Hebrew letters as: N R O N Q S R (=666, add them up) = this is the preferred version as spoken by the Greeks or else as: N R O Q S R (i.e. 616). NERO was probably the original intent of the writer, but the "Book of Revelation"was re-written so many times in its long literary history, (e.g. in 96 AD (re-edited) with another Emperor (Nero-Domitian) in mind, and the text was applied to every succeeding generation where "persecution of the Elect" was in effect.) Despite the "rhetoric of hope" for the "Elect" in the Book of Revelation which was meant to strengthen the resolve of those fighting the "Beast" contrary to the hopes of the writer, Jerusalem did not descend from the sky as promised, and 900,000 Palestinian Jews lost their lives in a war which, according to Josephus, should not have been ever fought in the first place... From: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread80914/pg1 This is copyright material and must not be copied in any way until going to the following to obtain the guidelines for its use! Attribution. You must attribute authorship of the work to "Byrd; a member of AboveTopSecret.com", and include the title of the message thread, 666-where does it come from?; and this full link URL to the post: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... #pid828821. (Unless otherwise noted, photography and other artwork linked within member posts are subject to the usage rights of the individual owners of the linked artwork.) From another source: In Roman times, the language used was Latin, and Nero was "Nero" ! That is his latin name! Also, in Italian, the name is "Nero"! Many of the romance languages developed from Latin - Italian, French, Spanish. In Greek and in Hebrew, Nero was Neron When Nero Caesar's name is transliterated into Hebrew, which a first-century Jew would probably have done, he would have gotten Neron Kesar or simply nrwn qsr, since Hebrew has no letters to represent vowels. "It has been documented by archaeological finds that a first century Hebrew spelling of Nero's name provides us with precisely the value of 666. Jastrow's lexicon of the Talmud contains this very spelling."5 When we take the letters of Nero's name and spell them in Hebrew, we get the following numeric values: n=50, r=200, w=6, n=50, q=100, s=60, r=200 = 666. "Every Jewish reader, of course, saw that the Beast was a symbol of Nero. And both Jews and Christians regarded Nero as also having close affinities with the serpent or dragon. . . . The Apostle writing as a Hebrew, was evidently thinking as a Hebrew. . . . Accordingly, the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the name - that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment that he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as "Neron Kesar."6 The fragment supports the reading of some Greek New Testament manuscripts that read 616 instead of 666. Why would someone making a copy of the Revelation scroll make such a number change? "Perhaps the change was intentional, seeing that the Greek form Neron Caesar written in Hebrew characters (nrwn qsr) is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form Nero Caesar (nrw qsr) is equivalent to 616." A Latin copyist might have thought that 666 was an error because Nero Caesar did not add up to 666 when transliterated into Latin. He then changed 666 to 616 to conform to the Latin rendering since it was generally accepted that Nero was the Beast. In either case, a Hebrew transliteration nets 666, while a Latin spelling nets 616. Nero was the "man" and either 666 or 616 was his number. Partial source: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 202AArPVCp Quasar93

Teachers always have things to say above and beyond the text of any book, in helping students understand it better. The Bible fully supports the pre-trib rapture teachings within it. Gen.28:20 "So Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed to him but a few days because of the love he had for her." As it will be for the Church, from the time Jesus returns from heaven for us, in 1 Thes.4:16 to the marriage in heaven, of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.19:7-8. While the tribulation takes place on earth. Confirmed by the following: In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation in Dan.9:27. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD. The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing," rather than "falling away." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth]. From the marriage in heaven, Jesus will return in His second coming to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14. Confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14. The pre-trib rapture o the Church endorsed by the following: 1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D. Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Falwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth. The trumpet of God will sound in 1 Thes.4:16.when Jesus returns to take His Church to heaven, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. The next trumpet of God will be t the second coming of Jesus, with His Church, to the earth, recorded in Zech.9:14. The last trumpet of god will be at the resurrection as recorded in 1 Cor.15:52. Quasar93

My dear bro, with all due respect, your opinion is quite meaningless in denying the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, I have provided two Scripturally based posts, fully proving the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church. If you expect to break the Scriptures I have provided fully supporting it, you will have to provide a Scripturally based argument doing so. Otherwise, the Scriptural proof I have provided clearly prevails, with the facts they provide. Quasar92

With all due respect, my dear, no matter how much well meaning opinion you contribute and share with us, the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is a Scriptural fact, as I have shared with you in two of my posts. The only way you can legitimately refute either or both of them, is to provide your own Scrip0turally based vies that refute any or all of them. Otherwise, The views you confessed as those of yours, are full of the holes the Scripture puts in them, and they are what is false. Your bro in Christ, Quasar92

From your above remark, it is clear you reject the Scriptural teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, that refute you, whom you call liars. Quasar92

Did you take the time to read my post you quoted, bro? It has all the Scriptural facts you call a myth, that refute your preconceived views. Opinion is worthless without verifying Scriptural support. The bottom line is if you stand by the claims you do about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church being a myth, you need to field a Scripturally based argument refuting the Scriptures I posted that refute you, or your views are the myth. Here is more or you to review: The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Mt.24:31: [/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out. Lk.21:36: "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." Jn.14:2-4 and 28: "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4]. "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28]. The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years. 1 Thes.4:13-18: The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14. "According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming. Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures. "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16. "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. "Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18. 2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine]. The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age. In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below. Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD. The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth]. Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given. "He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4. The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed: In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way." The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that: In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21]. The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8. From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures. Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5! The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf Quasar93

My dear bro in Christ: Even if you are living at the time of the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation, the Lord will come and raise all of us who belong to Him, up. to meet Him in the air, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3. 28;1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, BEFORE that ever happens. Even so, your seven points are good to observe all the time, no matter what. Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options! The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts: 1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11. 2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!. 3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. 4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1. Quasar93

And a high five for you, bro! I couldn have written a better epistle myself, even though it would be longer. With all due respect, many kudos for your honorable achievements in pursuit of teaching others /bringing others to the Lord. God bless you. Quasar93

I am reminded of the man who loved to play golf, who never took the time to get any training from proifesional sources. As a result, he would go out on the links to play golf with friends, but every time it was his turn to tee-off, he would either slice or hook the ball when he swung his club to drive it - because he never learned how to hold his club. As a matter of act, I am in my 95th year Quasar93.

Was your BHD earned in a Bible College, or for some other endeavor? Thanks for the reponse. Quasar93

I'm in my 95th year. Quasar93

Jn.11:26 "and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” As we believers who are left on earth alive at Jesus coming for us, in 1 Thess.4:16, we are translated into our immortal, imperishable glorified bodies, according to 1 Cor.15:51-52. Those believers who died in Christ, who will return with Him from heaven, in verse 14, were changed in a twinkling of an eye to their glorified bodies, when their physical bodies died, and Jesus raised them immediately to heaven, according to 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. We will then all be caught up together, to meet the Lord in the air. From where He will take us all to heaven with Him, according to Jn.14:2-3,28 and 1 Thess.4:17. And we will be with Him forevermore. Quasar93

OK, I gave you the sources of my training, now let's see yours. Quasar92

Many years ago, I earned qualifications to teach the Bible from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada, prior to serving in the USAAF Air Corp during WWII, where I spent 2 years of it in the Pacific/Asiatic theater. Some years later, supplementing it at Liberty University, with Harold Wilmington, in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, with Dwight Pentecost, in Dallas, TX. Quasar93