9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

Looks like we are at loggerheads regarding the rapture. The early church fathers/writers seem to agree with the scriptures that 'apsotasia' is a 'falling away'.....not a rapture. Irenaeus ,Justyn Martyr, Ephraim, Cyril, Augustine, Tertullian, Hyppolitus, John Crysostrom, among others.

The old and modern Latin also translate it as rebellion:

 Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture.

2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean.

With all respect brother, there is too much evidence in scripture that says we will face the anichrist and his persecutions. 

"......Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution...."

You're a little confused about who it is that teaches the "new meanings theologians try to put into the meaning of apostasia."  I am a qualified teacher of the Bible, prophecy and eschatology, from which I have made a study of specifically over the past 36 years, having had its beginnings in August of 1937.   And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

 The first post/OP of my thread, "The Biblical teaching of the Pre-trib Rapue of the Church," will provide you with the translation history of 2 thess.2:3.  Also, that Jerome translated it from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, with the Latin word, discessio, which also means departure, or to depart.  In addition to that, the first seven English translations of the Bible, translated 2 Thess.2:3 as a departure of the Church, before the tribulation begins.  There are different meanings for each of those two words, it depends upon the text they are used in to determin which one is used.  Paul was teaching about a rature of the Church, not a falling awau in the text he used apostasia in,  Yhe theme of the passafe, 2 Thess.2:1-8, is in the very first verse, which states, "about our gathering to the Lord Jesus Christ."  Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we who are still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air."  That you are trying to call a falling away, after the word departure had been used in the passage for 16 centuries, untill it was altered in 1611 by KJV scribes to apostasy.  Review the following

reek term 'apostasia' in 2 Thes.2:3 means 'departure' 

Here Mr. Wuest discusses 2Thes 2:3, specifically the meaning of "apostasia."  He asserts that it should be translated as 'departure' with reference to the rapture of the church. I have never come across this in any translation and I wonder if it is a correct exegesis of this verse?

"The words =93a falling away=94 are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi inits intransitive sense means =93 to stand,=94 the prefixed preposition means=93 off, away from,=94 and the compound verb, =93 to stand off from.=94 The=word does not mean =93 to fall.=94  The Greeks had a word for that, piptw.  Afisthmi, in=its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: =93 to make stand off, cause=to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one=94; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means =93to fall away, become faithless.=94 The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version =93 to depart,=94 in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27;=Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1;2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated =93 fall away,=94 in Acts 5:37, =93 drew away,=94 and in Acts 5:38, =93 refrain.=94 Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word =93 departure =94.  The reader will observe that the predominant=translation of the verbal form is =93 to depart,=94 also, that where it is translated =93 fall away,=94 the context adds the idea of =93 falling away =94 to the verb, which =action is still a departure.

E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply in debted for calling his attention to the word =93 departure=94 as the correct rendering=ofapostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean =93a departure=94 in this context: Tyndale(1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza(1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more inthe New Testament and is translated =93 to forsake=94 (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, =93 divorcement,=94 which=word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times bothin classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means =93a rebel.=94.  But these are acquired meanings of the word=gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word =93 apostasy=94 means a defection from the truth is entirely beside=the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word meant to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words =93 some shall depart from the faith==94 and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase =93 from the faith=94 indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice.  A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. =93.  The basal function=of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark =91 the object as definitely conceived,=92 for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article.=94.  This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one,one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is =93 todenote previous reference.=94.  Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context.=94 Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words =93 our gathering together unto=him,=94 not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered =93 and=94 can also be translated =93 even,=94 and the translation reads, =93 the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him.=94.

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to =93 the gathering together unto him =94 as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:2, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture rather than a pre-seventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."


By Kenneth S. Wuest


From:  http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/96-12/0863.html


Quasar93

10 minutes ago, ScottA said:

You have not reconciled the two passages.

They are given by Paul to two different groups, but are the same word from God. Both passages pertain to the so called rapture of the church...and that is the subject of discussion.

You should be putting the two passages together. But because you put asunder, you error.

The above is as clear as mud.  If you expect a response from me on it, kindly explain what you are talking about and what you claim I am in error about!

Quasar93

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

2Thess 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

The context is set here. The day Jesus comes is linked with the gathering. The only gathering specified in connection with the coming of the Lord in all of scripture, mirroring the Matt 24 gathering.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as thatthe day of Christ is at hand. 

Paul is assuring them 'that day' has not come, no matter what they have heard to the contrary. 'That day' is the coming of the Lord Jesus; the only coming of Jesus in connection with the gathering specified in scripture, and again mirroring the Matt 24 coming of the Lord perfectly.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

This is where it all goes wrong for pretrib. The falling away is correctly translated here, more or less. The definition of 'apostasia' is 'revolt', 'defection'. It would have been better in my opinion to say, "...except there come a defection first...". However the concept of falling away is adequate even if it does not really capture the import or reality of what the body of Christ has done, which is abdicating their true spiritual connection with the Father in favor of conceit. If you would like to see the details of 'apostasia' 'aphistemi' and 'dicessio', please let me know. I'll post the definitions, history usage and etymology.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

No explanation needed here.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 

 Same.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

 What withholds is the the revealing of the beast and the defection of the body of Christ. What is being withheld is the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, The direct antecedent to verse 6 is "that day" and is revealed by Paul to be held in check by events as related in verse 3, " except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,"

There is no justification to conclude any other idea here. 

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

This verse fragment, "...only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way." has been inaccurately rendered from the original language. I can get more into detail with this at a later time. It should read something like, "...only remain steadfast until he emerges in the midst." This fits far better with the concept of the 'mystery of iniquity' than the oddity of, "only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way." which seems to be an almost senseless translation of the original language.

So get ready. The coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect is on it's way, just not before the beast has his moment. The war is coming and the church is the main combatant.

 

FYI, there IS NO  gathering together to the Lord in the sky at His second coming as I have shown you previously!  Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had NOT yet arrived, as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and Acts 2:1-3.

Mt.24:30-31 is Jesus second coming WITH HIS CHURCH, from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.  Confirmation of Jesus second coming WITH His Church is recorded in Rev.19:11-21, in verse 14, as I have shown you before.

The teaching by Paul, in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and in 2 Thess.2:1-8, and by Jesus, in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, is about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church and has nothing whatever to do with His second coming, seven years later, WITH His Church!  All of thism has been fully supported by the Scriptures posted in the OP and the post following.

Quasar93  

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

No scriptural support is given for the armies of Jesus consisting of angels or the church because there is none. Rev 19 is non specific as to the identity of the holy ones that fight with the Lord. That these holy ones are the church is imperative to the pretrib doctrine. Angels are dressed in pure white linen as well, are called holy, and are the servants of God. Based on this one cannot be dogmatic about the identity of the holy ones in Rev 19 unless other scriptural support is extant. You have any?

2 thessalonians 2 is the exemplar of rapture passages, the paragon, if you will. Would it surprise you to know that pretrib has it all wrong? 

Not only does pretrib misdefine apostasia, it backfires on what withholds who, and he who now letteth will let....The truth is it's the revealing of the beast at the midpoint delaying the return of Jesus, and since apostasia appears in the the Koine Greek, and is in the original texts, and for centuries before so called scholars foisted their personal take on the congregation, and was always defined, and still is, as revolt or defection and never as a departure from one place to another; why would anyone conclude an alternate term was used? Or why try to force a definition that doesn't fit the original and true definition of the word that appears in the original text?

Why would Paul use a term for revolt if he meant, leaving from one place to go to another? He would not. Paul is a superb scholar superior to any modern scholar and learned directly from the Lord Jesus himself. This fact alone puts to shame any claim of modern scholarly expertise.

But you'll see, brother.

The beast comes to purify the body as this is the Lord's will.

You will see the beast rise, and you'll be here. 

You'll see the A of D, and you will be here.

You'll see the mark of the beast, and you will be here. 

Soon this will all be clear.

The following Scriptural facts to properly interpret them, do not always come from a single passage of Scripture.  Thet also fully verify what I have previously posted and refute your guesswork over them:

Mt.25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

Zech.14:5 "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

Rev.19:14 "14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean"

Rev.19:8 "Fine linen, bright and clean,was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

he Greek word apostasia, and the Latin word Fiscessio, in 2Thess.2:3, mean departure, or, to depart:

2 Thess.2:1 - "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to[meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed.. Do you not recollect that when I was still with you, I told you these things? (vs. 5). 

There is a difference between the terms, The Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Day of the Lord. The Coming of our Lord, is for the gathering of the Church to meet Him, as in the fetching of the Bride found in I Thessalonians 4:16-17; and the Day of the Lord is the day of His vengeance, His wrath as we read in Joel 2:2, A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and of thick mists and darkness; a day of destruction, Isaiah 13:6; a great and terrible day (Joel 2:31); the Day of the Lord is darkness and not light; it is as if a man fled from a lion and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned with his hand against the wall and a serpent bit him (Amos 5:18-19). 

So the Christians in Thessalonica understood the meaning of this day and through some letter they received, they feared to be in the tribulation. Paul then assured them: The Day of the Lord will not come until the departure comes first and after that the son of perdition will be revealed; and again he assured them again with the words, And now you know what is restraining him; the work of lawlessness is already at work in the world, but it is restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way and then the lawless one will be revealed (vs.6-8). 

This is the most comforting passage assuring the Bride of Christ that she will be taken before the revealing of the antichrist and the time of tribulation. The lawless one will be revealed only on the right time and no one knows when because this event is connected with the taking of the Bride of Christ, a day no one knows when, either the hour of her departure. Only when she is taken away will he be given power to govern the world, for he has no power over the Bride of Christ, whose body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. God’s removal of His Bride will confirm His words, 

Nothing can take them (His sheep) out of My hands. God will protect her from the lawless one by taking her away to Himself. So, as Paul said, Comfort and encourage your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word (II Thessalonians 2:17); and let no one deceive you with the idea that you are going through the tribulation, just as he assured the Thessalonians, he is assuring us of that too!

For the complete article:

http://www.lightfromtheword.org/upload/Apostasia%20or%20Departure.pdf

Quasar93

9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar....

It is in brotherly love that I dialogue with you. Two brothers in Christ who share scriptures to rightly divide the truth. Iron sharpens Iron.

I'm a researcher. And I spend most of my time researching the scriptures to see if what is being taught as truth is the truth. 

Here is a quote from the rest of the article: (Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.)

It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first
pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.11 J. S.
Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.12 He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.13 Another
pre-English proponent of “the departure” as the rapture was John R. Rice in a book in 1945.14

 

From the Douay-Rheims Bible:

The day of the Lord is not to come till the man of sin be revealed. The apostle's traditions are to be observed. [1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Others: John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..   Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;" {12}   Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed." {13}   Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}   John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}   More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3)." {16}       This article is about the early Church Writers..... Please take time to read it.    "2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy"."   How did the Early Church Writers view 2 Thess 2?  With one voice, both those who spoke Greek natively and those who learned it as a Scriptural language, seem to agree that "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 refers to an apostacy, not a rapture.  Several of these men spoke Greek natively and all studied it and knew it as an academic language. Translations How the Scriptures appear in various languages can sometimes remove ambiguity if one language has ambiguity another does not.  Regardless of what new meanings theologians with an agenda try to read into the Greek "apostacia", it was translated in early Church times as "abscessio" (dispute, rebel, etc) in the Old Latin and appears in Aramaic as "מרודותא" = rebellion.  The modern Vulgate translates "Apostacia" as "discessio", which means division or rebellion.  Both the Old and Modern Latin fit the theme of rebellion, not rapture. All of these confirm that the Greek "apostacia" means "apostacy", and not a rapture. 2 Thess 2:3 uses the Latin / Greek / Aramaic words for "Rebellion" / apostacy = "abscessio" / "apostacia" / "מרודותא", and not the words for rapture, which is "raptum" / "arpages" / "chatufa".  So no early manuscript of 2 Thess 2:3 interprets "apostacia" to mean "rapture", as some WANT it to mean. Irenaeus (130-200) Irenaeus quoted the Old Latin translation of "abscessio" in Against Heresies V.25.  In Against Heresies V.25.5, he says this after quoting 2 Thess 2 and commenting on it, "From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy (apostaciae), and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error..." (Against Heresies V.25.5) What is interesting here is that Latin has a direct transliteration of "αποστασία" into Latin, which is "apostaciae".  This of course indicates that he was aware of the original Greek wording of 2 Thess 2:3, and uses it in Latin, analyzing it as "apostacy" and not with some other meaning.  Irenaeus was born in Smyrna / Izmir of modern day Turkey, and thus would have grown up speaking Greek.  He was bishop to Lyons, France (Southwest France about 90 miles from Geneva, Switzerland) where he would have had to have learned Provencial French and Latin to function as a cleric in that society.  Here, Irenaeus is saying something I've said before, that the CONTEXT of 2 Thess 2 fits interpretting "apostacia" as "apostacy" because the entire chapter is talking about apostacy.  It is talking about the apostacy the son of perdition will lead.  So Irenaeus uses the Latin "apostaciae" in V.25.5 and paraphrases it as "abscessio" in V.25.1, which has a variant of rebellion, not rapture. In fact, in the chapter preceeding this section, before he quotes 2 Thess 2, he is discussing the concept of apostacy before he quotes this passage.  So both the context that sets up the quote and his commentary on it support that he understood this passage to refer to an "apostacy", not a rapture.  So the flow of the context of what he says following like this....   Against Heresies V.24 A general discussion of apostacy, not related to end times Against Heresies V.25-early Quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and related text and analyzes it Against Heresies V.25-late Discusses the apostacies the lawless one will cause. So Irenaeus definitely shed a lot of light on how "αποστασία" was interpretted as meaning apostacy, not rapture.  In Chapter 28, titled "...the future apostacy in the time of the AntiChrist...", he goes into even mroe detail about the apostacy of the end times. Justin Martyr (150-160 AD) Like Irenaeus, Justin also sees "apostacy" in the meaning of 2 Thess 2:3 and sees the word indicating what the "Lawless one" will cause, since he calls him the "Man of Apostacy" in Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CX.  He qualifies what  apostacy is by saying he would, "speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians" (ibid). He also says, " 'Sata' in the Jewish and Syrian tongue means apostate" (Dialogue, Chapter CIII) and later calls Satan "an apostate from the will of God" (Dialogue, Chapter CXXV). Tertullian (160-225 AD) Tertullian quotes 2 Thess 2:3 with the same Latin wording as Irenaeus, but makes little comment on it. Hippolytus (170-236) Hippolytus seems to connect the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3, suggesting that he sees the abomination of desolation as the act of apostacy referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 when it refers to "apostacy".  This is a bit different from Irenaeus' view, who sees "apostacy" as referring to MANY things that will occur, both a rebellion against the faith by people but also the wide range of rebellions that the False Messiah will lead the populace into.   Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) Ephraim quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and says this... "The Apostle has penned a warning for us in his epistle to the Thessalonians: ‘Let no word or no letter trouble you that is not from us. For the rebellion comes first, also the Man of Sin And he will exalt himself over God, Making himself to be God.’ And when the Accursed One comes and displays his mighty works and wonders, the nations will gather together and come as (if) they were going to see God....every person will renounce their deity;" (Sermon by Ephraim on the End of the World ) So he clearly interprets "apostacy" here as rebellion and sees that "apostacy" as meaning, "every person will renounce their deity."  Muslims will renounce Allah in favor of the False Messiah as their god.  Buddhists will renounce Buddah in favor of the FM.  Nominal Christians will renounce the Real Messiah for the False one.  That is the picture of "apostacy" that Ephraim paints for his reader.  They will accept the "man of sin" as "god". Cyril (315-387) Cyril attempts to reconstruct the chain of events that will occur in sequential order during the end times, but omits any mention of a rapture. Like Hippolytus, he too connects the abomination of desolation with 2 Thess 2:3 seeing it as the apparent act of apostacy cited in 2 Thess 2:3.  He also quotes heavily on the word "Apostacy" itself, saying this, "Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away.  For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare to say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing.  And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears." (Cyril Lecture XV)  His comments give plenty of examples of how he interpreted the word "apostacia", and he sees it as something that has already begun, citing heretical teachings of his day. Augustine (354-430 AD) Augustine has this to say, "No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate —apostate, to wit, from the Lord God" (City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19) So here Augustine seems to suggest a similar interpretation to what Irenaeus and Justin proposed.   John Chrysostrom (349-407) John Chrysostrom was a Greek speaker who wrote in Greek.  He quotes 2 Thess 2:3 and then says this.... "...except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed...Here he discourses concerning the Antichrist, and reveals great mysteries. What is “the falling away?”  [The Greek word translated “falling away” is that which we borrow as apostasy.—J.A.B.] He calls him Apostasy, as being about to destroy many, and make them fall away....he will not introduce idolatry, but will be a kind of opponent to God; he will abolish all the gods, and will order men to worship him instead of God" (Homily on 2 Thess)   The COLLECTIVE Other early writers quote 2 Thess 2, but some don't analyze it is a way to indicate how they interpreted "apostacia."  Some analyze other aspects of the text.  For example, many early writers commented on who the "Restrainer" was. But of those that did comment in such a way as to indicate HOW they interpreted the word "apostacia", they all interpret it to mean APOSTACY and give enough examples of that.  They discuss different aspects of what "apostacy" could mean, indicating they are getting at least part of their analysis out of the meaning of the word, rather than from tradition.  For example, Iranaeus, Justin, Augustine and Chrysostrum see the "apostacy" as the rebellion of the False Messiah himself. Hippolytus and Cyril both see the abomination of desolation included in the meaning of "apostacia". Ephraim sees "every person will renounce their deity" in the meaning of "apostacia" Cyril sees heretical ideas of his time in the meaning of "apostacia" So a variety of aspects of "apostacy" are included in how the early Church interpreted the word "apostacia" / apostacy in 2 Thess 2:3.  But all of them see some form of rebellion in the meaning of the word and none see this as a rapture.  Note that all 3 Latin writers see "apostacy" in the rebellious acts of the Man of Apostacy, and 2 Greek writers see the abomination of desolation in "apostacia".  Iraenaeus grew up speaking Greek, so he counts in both categories linguistically, but more with the Latin West culturally. That's it for now brother. Take care.

First of all, 2 Thes.2:1 is the theme o the passage consisting of verses 1 through 8,.  :t states: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..."  Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that we will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air."  Clear reference by Paul, he was teaching about a rapture of the Church,  Not about the Church going into apostasy, or falling away in that passage at all.  He then reinforced the Greek word, "apostasia," in which one of its meanings is "departure," harmoniously with verse 7, where he wrote the following: " The restrainer will continue to restrain, until he is "taken out of the way."  Meaning the very same thing as "departure," in verse 3.

In addition to that, Jerome in his translation of the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, he used the Latin word, "discessio," which also means, "departure," or "to depart."  Which was the original and proper historical interpretation for 16 centuries, including those of the first seven English trabslations of the Bible.  Until it was altered by KJV scribes in 1611 A.D.  All of which has been previously posted.

The teachings of Paul about apostasy and falling away are recorded in 2 Tim. 3, not in 2 Thess.2:1-8.

Quasar93

1 hour ago, ScottA said:

That does not reconcile with:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

1 Thess.4:16 will be the very next prophetic event to ake lace,  1 Cor.15:23, in referebce to resurrections, has nothing to do with it.

Quasar93

I believe Jesus is returning to reign over the earth because the New Testament prophets say so. 
 
1) Peter
 Acts 3:21 — In his sermon on the portico of Solomon, Peter says Jesus must remain in Heaven "until the period of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time." The period of restoration spoken of here will occur during the Millennium when the curse is partially lifted and nature is restored (Romans 8:18-23).
 
 2) Paul
  2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 — Paul says that when Jesus returns "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel," He will also come for the purpose of being glorified before His saints. The return of Jesus to be glorified before His saints and all the nations of the world is one of the persistent themes of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 24:23, Isaiah 52:10,13, Isaiah 61:3, and Psalm 46:10). 
 
2 Timothy 2:12 — Paul says "if we endure, we shall also reign with Him."
 
3) John
 Revelation 12:5 — John sees a vision in which a sun clothed woman (Israel) gives birth to a male child (Jesus) "who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron."
 
 Revelation 19:15-16 — In his description of Jesus returning to earth, John says He bears the title, "King of kings and Lord of lords," and John says He will "rule the nations with a rod of iron."
 
Revelation 20:4,6 — John says that after the return of Jesus to the earth, He will reign with His saints ("those to whom judgment has been given") for a thousand years.
        
I believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign because the Heavenly Host say so.
 
 1) Gabriel
Luke 1:26-38 — When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she would bear a son named Jesus who would be called "the Son of the Most High." He then added three promises that are yet to be fulfilled: "the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end."

2) The Four Living Creatures and the 24 Elders
  Revelation 5:9-10 — When John is raptured to Heaven and finds himself standing before the throne of God (Revelation 4), he hears "the four living creatures" (special angelic creatures called seraphim in Isaiah 6) and "the twenty-four elders" (probably representative of the redeemed) singing a song of praise to Jesus. In this song they say that Jesus is a Worthy Lamb who has made His redeemed a kingdom, "and they will reign upon the earth." 

3) The Angels of God
 Revelation 11:15 — Voices from Heaven make a proleptic proclamation in the midst of the Tribulation: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." (Note: A proleptic statement is one that speaks of a future event as if it has already occurred. This is a common form of expression in prophecy because all future events are settled in the mind of God as if they had already happened in history.)
 
4) The Tribulation Martyrs
 Revelation 15:3-4 — At the end of the Tribulation, right before the final pouring out of God's wrath in the form of the bowl judgments, all the Tribulation martyrs who are in Heaven join together in singing "the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb." In that song, they declare the Lamb (Jesus) to be the "King of the nations," and they proclaim that "all the nations will come and worship before Thee."

I believe Jesus is returning to reign on the earth because Jesus said so.
 
Matthew 19:28 — Jesus said that during "the regeneration" (the same time as "the period of restoration" referred to by Peter in Acts 3:21), He will "sit on His glorious throne," and the Apostles will join Him in judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
Matthew 25:31 — Jesus said that when He returns in glory, "the Son of Man... will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him" for judgment. The throne of Jesus is the throne of David which has always been located in only one place — in Jerusalem (see Isaiah 9:6-7and Psalm 122).
 
Acts 1:3-6 — Luke says that Jesus spent 40 days teaching His disciples about the kingdom of God. Then, as He was ready to ascend into Heaven, one of the disciples asked, "Lord is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" The question indicates that Jesus taught a time would come when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Jesus' response to the question indicated the same thing. He did not rebuke the question. Rather, He simply said it was not for them to know the times and seasons when the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

 Revelation 2:26-27 — Jesus says that He has a special reward for any "overcomer" who keeps His deeds until the end: "To him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron."

 Revelation 3:21 — Jesus makes it clear that the overcomers will reign jointly with Him: "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Again, the throne of Jesus is the throne of David (Luke 1:32 and Revelation 3:7). The throne of David is in Jerusalem, not in Heaven (Psalm 122). Jesus currently shares His Father's throne. He is not sitting on His own throne and will not do so until He returns to this earth. Then He will allow the redeemed to share His throne with Him.

For proof of Jesus millennial reign on the earth, go to the following link:

From: http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_second1.php

By Dr. David R. Reagan



Quasar93

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Why some of the text of your post didn't appear as a quote from it is a mystery to me.  In any event, you are again providing nothing but your opinion, together with Scripture that is irrelevant to this issue.  You make remarks such as, "lots of assumption here," etc.  While if you read the Scriptures I have used to fully support this issue, you could see crystal clear, you have no argument whatever, in denying the Scriptural proofs of the coming pre-trib rapture, as posted in the OP and the post that follows, whatever..

FYI, I a a qualified teacher of the Bible. prophecy and eschatology, having earned it from three different Bible colleges, with 36 years of research and study in prophecy and eschatology ALONE.  And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology.

FYI, the Church meets Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thess.4:17, when He comes for it with all those who previously died in Him, in verses 14, 15 and 16.  From where He will take it to heaven, recorded in Jn.14>2-3 and 28.  The Bride/Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8, that Jesus used John, symbolically, in Rev.4:1-2 to represent the Church.  Who are then seen in heaven for their marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, recorded in Rev.19:7-8.  Jesus will then return to the earth, WITH HIS CHURCH, in his second coming, following Him, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, recorded in verse 8], white and clean, in His armies from heaven.  Your attempt to alter the Scriptural meaning by calling those in verse 14, angels, is false.  There is no doubt whatever, the angels will be in Jesus armies from heaven also, but verse 14 specifically refers to the saints/Church.

May I suggest that you refrain from calling anything I post as "not true," but rather, try proving it with Scriptural support.

Quasar93 
 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

There are no separate groups. Paul taught all are one in Christ. Your conclusions are wrong in that you have ignored the most basic teachings of the Lord and the Apostles.

I still have hope you'll come to the light of truth in Jesus and be set free.

There are two groups who belong to Christ: 1. Those who have died in Him, as recorded in 1 Thes.4:13-14.  2. Those of us who will be alive at His coming.

Quasar93

Quote by Mike Mclees:

>>>[From Diastes] Counter proposal: Tell me what evidence will suffice to prove pretrib incorrect. 

I offer this because all evidence is rejected out of hand.

A bigger question looming with no answer concerns the 100,000 believers that die every year in the name of Jesus. Where is their rapture? 

You say, and all the men you cite, that the rapture must be pretrib because we are not appointed to wrath. 

This cannot be correct as millions are seen around the throne and it is specifically stated they have come out of great tribulation. That means they would have endured the wrath of God. How do you account for this?

That is not correct. Great tribulation is the persecution of the antichrist. This is the last 3 1/2 after the abomination of desolation.  Then the bride who suffered the antichrist will be taken up to heaven and honored of God after which the seven vials of Gods wrath wil be poured out on the unbelieving world  This is stated in Rev 15:1, 2<<< 

Reply by Quasar93:

You do not have the chronologival order of end time events in proper Scriptural order.  Review the following:y.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

Quasar93

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

Counter proposal: Tell me what evidence will suffice to prove pretrib incorrect. 

I offer this because all evidence is rejected out of hand.

A bigger question looming with no answer concerns the 100,000 believers that die every year in the name of Jesus. Where is their rapture? 

You say, and all the men you cite, that the rapture must be pretrib because we are not appointed to wrath. 

This cannot be correct as millions are seen around the throne and it is specifically stated they have come out of great tribulation. That means they would have endured the wrath of God. How do you account for this?

The above seat of the pants exegesis with unsupportable opinion, without Scripura verification is completely worthless.

I have posted the full evidence of proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church.  Either you produce your Scripturally based argument against it to prove any of it is false, or your views are the ones that are.

And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?

Quasar93

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Hi,

It's been awhile. Good to see you're still here, still on the same course. I like a person with great conviction.

Brother, you are in error.

I'm not sure how it is you slip past the admins with "teaching" instead of discussion. It's funny really. And I am somewhat out of sorts with how you should be approached in light of this "teaching" of yours. I know the Lord taught we are all brothers and sisters in Him, and we should be aware of our own personal failings, and do something about it, before trying to alleviate the failings of others. I also truly believe we should consider you as a brother, after all we are all blood relation from the beginning, if not related in the spirit.

I know how I have dealt with your "teaching" in the past. That's not going to change. But I do wish you would repent and find the leading of the Spirit in all truth.

I recently was paying close attention to a person predicting the pretrib rapture of the church. This rapture was predicted about once a week for many months, perhaps years. I only paid attention more recently. This person was so sincere and fully convinced. Had a mountain of evidence for every "rapture alert", week after week. Two days ago this person began citing Jonathan Cahn and the books of the Maccabees, while coming to the realization the pretrib rapture was nonexistent.  

I guess I wasn't ready for that.  I had opposed the teaching of this person stridently. I mostly always do. Right or wrong I find it difficult to stand by and allow such things unopposed. But this person did change and I thanked the Lord for this with praise and tears of joy! The truth was known where there used to be no truth! That is a marvelous thing to witness. What brought this person to the realization? Don't know. The right words at the right time, I suppose. Likely it was the culmination of time and evidence and the work of the Spirit through many voices all converging to a single point in time, light finally bursting through the thick cover of darkness!

"It's so clear now." This person said. Over and over that was repeated. Amazing! What a transformation! Have you ever seen the veil lifted from the spiritual eyes? It is like a birth. I have seen a child born, several. This was no less amazing, maybe more so. The desperate, rapid speech faded, the anxious tension gone from mind and spirit. There was a remarkable change from the previous time to the new person I saw. Peace reigned, measured speech, calm in conviction and knowing they would now be an outcast from their group. 

I know I'm droning but I just wanted to relate this and let you know that giving up on previously held convictions will not cause you to burst into flames or wither to a husk. It's a rebirth into that new, exciting, and fearful, oft overlooked realm, the truth. 

I hope for you, I truly do. It can happen. Your are my brother but your "teaching" is not of the Lord. 

 

No, I am not in error, but rather, you are!

FYI, the title of this thread is: "The Biblical Teaching of the Pre-trib Rapture o the Church."  Not the Quasar93 Teaching of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church.  It is taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, as the OP clearly reveals, whom you are assessing as liars.

The fact of the matter is, I am a qualified teacher of the Bible together with prophecy and eschatology, having earned them from three Bible colleges.  Beginning in 1937, with the WWII interval, serving in the USAAF Air Corps, where I spent two years in the Pacific/Asiatic theater of war.

You, as well as all others who participate on this eschatology forum, consider their views to be the right ones, regardless of whether they have been given the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit or not, as well as whether they have ever had any formal training in eschatology or not.

Your above critique of me is nothing but meaningless opinion of me as well as your denial of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, without a shred of Scriptural support to verify your claims.

Let me see your attempt, with a Scriptural argument against the OP and the following post, of Biblical proof for the pre-trib rapture, to prove your claim any of it is false.

Quasar93 

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The pre-trib satanic theory is a Devil's strategy to disarm believers for the battle that will take place now in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (a Day for the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years as one Day).  The fullness of Gentiles has already arrived, and our Lord JESUS is already sat on the throne of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ.

What you are preaching is doctrine of demons, it is not of God'men, absolutely, it is an apostate doctrine invented by spirits of demons to deceive the believers. By the way, the true believers do not forget the warns of the Holy Spirit by the Apostle Peter, saying: “We have not followed cunningly devised FABLES, when we made known unto you the power and COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”.  Yea, what you are preaching and writing here are cunningly devised fables of demons, you have been deceived by a satanic Trinity and in turn you are deceiving others.      

Now there will will be a STRONG SPIRITUAL WAR, yes, a great spiritual war, in accord the prophetical message of JESUS in Revelation 16:v.13to16:
v.13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.  (A SATANIC TRINITY)
v.14 For they are the spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great Day of God Almighty (NOW IS: THIS GREAT DAY).   (Yea, this Great Day of God Almighty has already arrived, that is the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Millennium of Vengeance, in which we are living, that is the seventh and last Day, and Christ will come soon in accord His promise)
v.15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
v.16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Furthermore, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2 Ti. 2:v.4-5)
 

JESUS left very clear, saying: (Rev.2:26-29)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

Obviously, you did not read the four posts in the link wih the teachings of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul that refute you, in my previous post.  I will post the first of the four posts in it for you to refute any part of it by the Scriptures, or your missguided views are the ones that are false:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf
 

Quasar93

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, you and I agree that the "The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky". Where you go wrong is when you add "BEFORE the tribulation begins". However, there is a since that your wording could be considered correct. But, only so, if by "tribulation" you mean the "tribulation" referred to in 2Thes 1:6.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The tribulation spoken of there, is God's wrath poured out in the day of the Lord against the Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the church. That tribulation is fundamentally different than the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. The great tribulation is the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. As Paul says the church will find rest from persecution, even the most extreme form of it, "great tribulation", when Christ comes and pours out His vengeance upon the persecutors of the church and Israel.

Concerning the time that the church is safely before the throne in Heaven while God's wrath is poured out. This takes place after great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return in the latter portion of the week (Matt 24:29-31).

Also you are confused into thinking that there is two comings of Christ in the future, when there is only one parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of Christ yet to come.

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

Each of these refer to the arrival of Christ at His second coming. He comes the second time to stay (this doesn't mean He will be on the earth right away, but He will be actively engaged in avenging the murders of His own, through the trumpet, and vial judgements). There will not be a third parousia. It is important to note that His second coming is much more than His arrival, as spectacular as that will be. At His parousia:

• He will be revealed to all,
• He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change the living believer.
• He will send angels to catch up the survivors together with the resurrected saints to be with Him in the clouds.
• He will escort us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne.
• He will cause the 144,000 to be sealed for protection while remaining upon the earth through the pouring out of His wrath.
• He will begin the salvos of His wrath after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven when the first trumpet is blown.
• While the earth dwellers face His wrath we will stand before the bema seat in Heaven to be Judged
• etc

Much like Christ's first coming was more than His conception or birth, so also, His second coming will be comprehensive. The problem is that you have Him arriving twice, once secretly and also in the end week for all to see. What you fail to see is that Revelation 19 is not depicting His arrival but His action against the Beast and the armies which follow him at the end of the week. The truth is that He only arrives once for all to see (Rev 1:7, 1 Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:29-31). The Beast worshipers who had been persecuting the saints unto death will hide at His revelation (Rev 6:12-17). However, the persecuted saints that survive to that time will have our heads up and be looking for Him when the cosmic sign and great earthquake portends His arrival (Luke 21:28).

Instead of setting the saints at ease, you should be warning them, like Jesus did, concerning the great persecution that will come upon the last generation of His elect, the church and Israel.

Hallelujah

See my post to Joe Canada just before this one, on this thrad for the Scriptural timing of the coming pretrib rapture of the Church.  Too bad these posts are not numbered as it would make resoses so easy to make with accuracy.

Quasar93

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Quasar...

I've been doing some research on your list of English translations that say that 'apostasia' was rendered 'departure or departing'. Here are my findings....

SUNDAY, 10 JANUARY 2016

APOSTASIA: REBELLION OR RAPTURE? THOMAS ICE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE TRICKERY!

 

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.(Mark 9:42)

 

This post refutes Thomas Ice's noxious mistranslation of the Greek noun apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which he contends indicates the pre-tribulation rapture:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html 

 

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together tohim, (episunagōgēs) we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion (apostasia) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

 

Ice specifically cites seven early bible translations prior to the King James Version of 1611 that he claims render the noun apostasia as either "departure" or "departing" which he chooses to interpret as the rapture, a meaning which was not intended by the early translators. 

 

Ice: "The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608)."

The Bishops' Bible is an English translation of the Bible produced in 1568 under the authority the Church of England. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition was prescribed as the base text for the King James Bible that was completed in 1611.{1}

Bishops Bible: "2Th 2:3 Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for [the Lorde shall not come] excepte there come a fallyng away first, & that that man of sinne be reuealed, the sonne of perdition..... " {2} 
 

Wycliffe Bible: "2 Thessalonians 2:3 No man disseyue you in ony manere. For but dissencioun come first, and the man of synne be schewid, the sonne of perdicioun.^" {3}

 

The Middle English word “dissencioun” comes from the Old French "dissension" which is notphysical departure!{4}

Apostasia is translated "revolt" in the the Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Latin Vulgate of Jerome (1582).

William Tyndale interpreted apostasia as a departure from the faith.. 

 

"sheweth that there shall be a departure from the faith....."

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion.^" {5}

 

Tyndale NT Commentary: "The necessary prelude to the coming of Christ is 'the rebellion'.... falling away hardly gives the force of apostasia..... In classical Greek, the word apostasia denoted a political or military rebellion; but in the Greek Old Testament we find it used of rebellion against God (e.g. Joshua xxii. 22), and this becomes the accepted biblical usage."{6}

The Original Geneva Footnotes

The Geneva Bible (Breeches Bible) includes marginal notes authored by John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, and many other leaders of the Reformation.

The Second Epistle Of Paul To The Thessalonians:

"Lest the Thessalonians should think that Paul neglected them, because he went to other places, rather than come to them, he writeth unto them and exhorteth them to patience and other fruits of faith, neither to be moved with that vain opinion of such as taught that the coming of Christ was at hand, for as much as before that day there should be a falling away from the true religion, even by a great part of the world, and that Antichrist should reign in the Temple of God;"

2 Thessalonians 2: " 2 He sheweth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, and that the Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy." {7} 

It is interesting that Paul does not make a distinction between the rapture (episunagógé) and "the day of the Lord" in this passage. Paul had previously taught the Thessalonian church about the rapture, and this later letter appears to indicate that they were in need of further clarification. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

 

Ice: "What precisely does Paul mean when he says that 'the falling away' (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church."

 

The context of verses 1-3 themselves defy Ice's interpretation. Apostasia is historically interpreted as defection, desertion, rebellion, from the prefix apó, which is a departure from a previous standing.{8} Paul's use of the noun episunagógé in verse 1 defines the rapture. Paul also uses the verb harpazo (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4), but he never usesapostasia in this context! Ice switches "departure from the faith" with the rapture, he inserts the word "tribulation" which is not specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, let alone verse 3, and then, as if by magic, the rapture precedes the tribulation! The false interpretation of "rapture" for "apostasia" is essential for the pre-tribulation rapture theory to hold water, whereas if we interpret "apostasia" as "rebellion", the meaning is plain! If we give Ice's interpretation credibility, we are left with the bizarre meaning that the rapture will not come unless the rapture comes first! His teaching is totally perverse! 

There are only two occurrences of apostasia in the New Testament, the other being in Acts 21:21: 

.....and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasian) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

 

I am not a "King James Only" adherent, but you would think that the forty seven scholars involved in interpreting the King James Bible between 1604 and 1616 would have arrived at the correct interpretation of this word, though clearly Ice thinks that he has carte blanche to redefine it!{9}

 

The root of apostasia is the verb aphistémi, meaning: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.{10} There are fourteen occurrences of aphistémi in the New Testament, and since this verb can mean physical departure as well as a departure from the faith (below), some have used the connection as a pretext to teach that apostasia means physical departure, i.e. the rapture. Ice's mentor, pre-tribulation rapture authority John Walvoord (1910-2002), once held this view, but he was humble/honest enough to change his mind after considering the lexical arguments of Robert Gundry.{11} Actually Walvoord admitted that no single verse of scripture by itself clearly teaches the pre-tribulation rapture.{11}

 

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from (aphistémi) the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (1 Timothy 4:1) 

 

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away (aphistémi) from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12)

 

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), crazed cult leader, founder of the Exclusive Brethren and "god" of  the Pre-Trib Rapture Center (PTRC) and the PWMI, is falsely credited with"discovering" the pre-tribulation rapture by Ice and his associates. Yet even the "mighty" Darby translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the apostasy..

 

Darby Bible Translation: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;^" {12}

 

Darby: "With nominal Christians this has necessarily the character of apostacy, or at least it is connected with this apostacy, and is consequent upon it; as Verse 3 (Th2 2:3) teaches us, the apostacy takes place, and then the man of sin is revealed.^" {13}

 

Erasmus: "signifies that great and before-predicted apostasy." {14}

 

John Wesley:  2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first.{15}

 

More recently, Christian Apologist and pretribulationist Dave Hunt (1926-2013), interpreted apostasia as the apostasy: "Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3).^" {16}

 

The scriptures do speak of the end time apostasy, and we should bear in mind that this is linked with false teachers who will mislead many believers and cause them to fall away. Critically, they often achieve this by redefining important passages of scripture by their own authority. Chillingly, the redefinition of scripture can be as subtle as reinventing just one word in one verse! (Genesis 3:1; 2 Corinthians 11:3)

 

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (Matthew 24:4-5, 9-13, 24)

 

 

But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. (Jude 17-19)

 

Needless to say, Ice has failed Joe Schimmel's challenge/offer to collect $10,000 to produce a single verse or passage of scripture which clearly teaches that the rapture happens before the tribulation.{17}

 

You also asked me my qualifications:

 

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 King James Version (KJV)

²⁵ Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

²⁶ For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

²⁷ But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

²⁸ And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

²⁹ That no flesh should glory in his presence.

John 14:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁶ But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Sometimes God chooses the most unlikely person you can imagine to do His work, someone totally un-gifted by nature. Into that person he pours his spiritual gifts so that there is absolutely no question that the work is of God. I was/am willing to be used.

Greetings Joe Canada,

The first verse in the 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him..."  Is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, those of us who are left on earth alive at His coming will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air..."  1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8 are both the teachings of Paul, about the pre-trib rapture o the Church.  The Scriptural passage in 2 Thess.2:3 pertains to a departure of the Church, as documented in the translation history of it.  Which Jerome translated from the Greek Septuagint around 320 A.D., to the Latin word, discessio. into the Latin Vulgate, which also means, departure, or to depart.  The research and report by Thomas Ice, PhD, is from the historic records, not some invention of his own, as vicious opponents would have others believe.

Review the following historical translation facts, whci dr. Ice had to researcch as far back in Christian history as the 12th century:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. rendered apostasia with the Latin word 'discessio,' meaning 'departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way," in perfect harmony with "departure," in verse 3.

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8

Quasar93.
 

22 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

2nd Thess 2:3 says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

what is is saying there, in specific sequence is that the apostasy and revelation of the man of lawlessness comes first!

Now, there is something, referred to as "it" in that verse, that therefore happens after the revelation of the man of lawlessness, if Paul is to be believed. What is this "it"? We need to back up to see what Paul is referring to in the previous verses:

 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

You can make up any sequence you like, and believe what you imagine. However, Paul specified that the revealing of the man of lawlessness happens before the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together to Him, is that not the rapture?

In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul is calming their fears, apparently the Thessalonians had received some sort of letter supposedly coming from him that got them upset an worried (reading from the context). Paul reminds them that he had previously addressed all this, so they should not be shaken. What had Paul previously said? Well, following in one thing:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the living Christians are caught up to be with the Lord, caught up together with the Christians who had already passed on, caught up together to be with Jesus when He descends from heaven, caught up to be with them in the clouds, meeting them in the air. Is this not also, a description of the rapture?

So, according to Paul, and he says it is according that we say this by the word of the Lord, that the dead in Christ, rise first, the living to not preceed the dead in Christ, so again, there is a specific sequence. So far we have noted that

1. the the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessless is revealed

2. and after that, the gathering of the dead in Christ

3. then the living Christians fo to join them all meeting Christ in the air.

This rules out the possibility that the rapture is pre-tribulation, unless the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin, is also pre-tribulation. So the question needs to be asked, are these events before the tribulation?

When the dead in Christ are raised, what do we know about that in sequence with other things, than might be helpful to understand. Dead people raised to life, is there a word for that? Like resurrection perhaps?

In Revelation 20, verse 5, we see the phrase:

"This is the first resurrection" 

What are there any details about that? Sure are! In Rev 20:4 we see these illuminating details:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now THAT is chronologically loaded! Full of relevant information.  There we see dead people in heaven.  We can see that they are there, because they were beheaded, so we know how they died. We also see why that happened to them:

because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God

Their testimony of Jesus, identifies them as Christians.

The fact that they would not worship the beast or his image, and that they had not received the mark on their hand or forehead, provides us the info to show that they were in the tribulation.

Now, what is still missing, is the timing of this resurrection, we do know that these people were in the tribulation first, and so these people are not raptured pre-trib, it is not possible.

Of course, there is nothing here that conflicts with what Jesus said, and Paul might have been referring to what Jesus said (like to his disciples in Matt 24) when he was pointing this things out. For example, Jesus said not to be deceived, and that He would return to gather the elect, using the same sort of language that Paul used (shout, angels, clouds, trumpet). The order that Jesus gave was pretty specific also, but He said this things happen "
immediately after the tribulation of those days".

If these dots are properly connected, then the sequence likely is:

1. The 70th week of Daniel begins

2. In that 7 year period, the man of lawlessnless is revealed

3. likely that is mid-week, and then the great tribulation of about 3-1/2 years (according to Jesus) is on

4. immediatey after that, the Sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall

5. then the Son of Man will appear in the sky and be seen by all, coming on the clouds

6. the dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection and meet the Lord in the air

7. then we (Christians) who are alive at that time, will be raptured (post-tribulation) to join the dead in Christ, made alive again and we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51)

8. Then we shall always be with the Lord. 

Comfort one another with these words. It might be proper to call the rapture "the Blessed Hope", but I think Jesus is our Blessed Hope. I believe, that according to scripture, a pre-trib rapture is just a false hope, and not a blessing at all, just a big disappointment for those expecting it.

Remember, the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.  2 Tim 4

I have wondered, and asked before, if we think that the time of refreshing should be considered to be any time before the tribulation. Maybe you do not know what I am referring to. The idea comes from the book of Acts, chapter 3:

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

A pre-trib rapture is a pleasant thought, but it is foreign to the pages of scripture. I am not saying that that are not verses and passages that people interpret to imply a pre-trib rapture, certainly there are. What I am saying, is that there is no verse or passage (that I have noticed anyway), which requires such an interpretation, nor specifies such a sequence. Of course, you are free to believe what you will, and ones belief on this topic, does not make one a heretic, nor a grounds for division.

See also:

http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html 

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/bibledoesnotsay.html

Jesus is revealed BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed and tribulation begins, as recorded in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  The Antichrist is revealed BEFORE Jesus second coming WITH HIS CHURCH in Dan.9:27 and Rev.6:2

In addition:  Jesis ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist at that time, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven,

Quasar93

53 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What you said above is irrelevant, spiritually it is good for nothing. What is relevant and prevails is the Word of God, not your own words.  What the Word of God reveals about "to depart" or apostasy (i.e. abandon of faith) is written in 2Tim.4:v.3-4: 3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

And more: 1Tim.4:v.1-2 - 1 Now the Spirit speaketh EXPRESSLY, that in the latter times some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES of demons;  ²Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

The whole Earth is infested of apostasy spread by seducing spirits and by doctrines of demons, there are churches that are already dead because of this.

 

The Apostle Paul did not preach any pre-tribe, absolutely. The pre-trib satanic theory is a Devil's strategy to disarm believers for the battle that will take place now in this beginning of this first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (a Day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one Day. The fullness of Gentiles has already arrived.

The Most High and Almighty God has already ordained to cast down Satan in the bottomless pit, and to shut him up, and to set a seal upon him that he deceive the nations no more. This will happen through a great and strong war. Rev.12:v.9-11:

Re.12:9 And the great Dragon (a red Dragon, the own Satan incarnate) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Here goes where you can see and know who are the angels of Satan: 2Cor.11:v.13-15. They and a great multitude of unbelievers are at the left hand of the Lord JESUS and condemned to eternal perdition, and they are already and will be CURSED by the Lord JESUS as you can know through Mat.25:v.41)

Re.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Re.12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It is not an awakening but a war movement against Satan and his armies, this is and will be a STRONG SPIRITUAL WAR, yes, a great spiritual war, in accord the prophetical message of JESUS in Revelation 16:v.13to16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils (A SATANIC TRINITY), working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that (NOW IS: THIS GREAT DAY) Great Day of God Almighty.   (Yea, this Great Day of God has already arrived, that is the seventh and last millennium, the Millennium of Christ in which we are living or seventh and last Day, and Christ will come soon in accord His promise)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Furthermore, no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. (2 Ti. 2:v.4-5)

JESUS left very clear, saying: (Rev.2:26-29)
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  

The following link of four posts with the Scriptural teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, in the first two, the chronological order of end time events, in the third, and a list of esteemed men of God from most every Christian teachings, who fully endorse the first three, in the fourth, fully refute your fictitious oracles.  Nothing could be more relevant thab that which I post!  Capiche?!  FYI, the teachins of Paul, in 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 2 Thess.2:1-8, is specifically about the pre-trob rapture of the Church.  Let me see your attempt to prove otherwise!

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

Quasar92

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Let me know when you are going to address anything I post.

 

 

On this forum, we are not debating the person, but the topic.  In this case, the topic is the falling away, or departing as you prefer.

 

 

Let me reveal how far off you are from what Paul said, again.  Take verse 1 apart one piece at a time, applying proper context.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning 

 

Concerning what?

 

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,

 

Two things, that is what Paul says, concerning two things.  The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,  AND our being gathered together to Him.  The and is an important part of the sentence, so here is a breakdown on what it means.

 

and >conjunction 1 used to connect words, clauses, or sentences. 2 used to connect two identical words to emphasize progressive change or great duration: getting better and better. 3 (connecting two numbers) plus. 4 informal (after a verb) to: try and do it. 

 

See there, Paul connects the two things together, His coming, and our being gathered.

 

II Thessalonians 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Now Paul tells us that His coming and our gathering is the day of the Lord in the second verse.

 

II Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In verse 3 Paul tells us that the day of the Lord will not come, until the departing (as you like to call it) comes first.  This makes them two separate things you see, because you can't have a gathering before the gathering.  First you have a rebellion, then His coming and our gathering comes after that.  This is how it works in any language.

 

 

This thread is about the falling away, specifically, not rapture positions.  What is nonsensical, is trying to change the departing (as you prefer) into the rapture, when the rapture takes place afterward according to Paul.  Once you accept what Paul is saying here, it dismantles the rest of the position anyway.

God bless

\FYI, the term "falling away," is one of the alterations of 2 Thess;2:3, which is specifically about the DEPARTURE/RAPTURE of the Church.  Review the following translation history of this schism:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

Quasar93

21 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

2nd Thess 2:3 says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

what is is saying there, in specific sequence is that the apostasy and revelation of the man of lawlessness comes first!

Now, there is something, referred to as "it" in that verse, that therefore happens after the revelation of the man of lawlessness, if Paul is to be believed. What is this "it"? We need to back up to see what Paul is referring to in the previous verses:

 1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

You can make up any sequence you like, and believe what you imagine. However, Paul specified that the revealing of the man of lawlessness happens before the coming of our Lord, and our gathering together to Him, is that not the rapture?

In 2nd Thessalonians, Paul is calming their fears, apparently the Thessalonians had received some sort of letter supposedly coming from him that got them upset an worried (reading from the context). Paul reminds them that he had previously addressed all this, so they should not be shaken. What had Paul previously said? Well, following in one thing:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the living Christians are caught up to be with the Lord, caught up together with the Christians who had already passed on, caught up together to be with Jesus when He descends from heaven, caught up to be with them in the clouds, meeting them in the air. Is this not also, a description of the rapture?

So, according to Paul, and he says it is according that we say this by the word of the Lord, that the dead in Christ, rise first, the living to not preceed the dead in Christ, so again, there is a specific sequence. So far we have noted that

1. the the apostasy comes and the man of lawlessless is revealed

2. and after that, the gathering of the dead in Christ

3. then the living Christians fo to join them all meeting Christ in the air.

This rules out the possibility that the rapture is pre-tribulation, unless the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin, is also pre-tribulation. So the question needs to be asked, are these events before the tribulation?

When the dead in Christ are raised, what do we know about that in sequence with other things, than might be helpful to understand. Dead people raised to life, is there a word for that? Like resurrection perhaps?

In Revelation 20, verse 5, we see the phrase:

"This is the first resurrection" 

What are there any details about that? Sure are! In Rev 20:4 we see these illuminating details:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now THAT is chronologically loaded! Full of relevant information.  There we see dead people in heaven.  We can see that they are there, because they were beheaded, so we know how they died. We also see why that happened to them:

because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God

Their testimony of Jesus, identifies them as Christians.

The fact that they would not worship the beast or his image, and that they had not received the mark on their hand or forehead, provides us the info to show that they were in the tribulation.

Now, what is still missing, is the timing of this resurrection, we do know that these people were in the tribulation first, and so these people are not raptured pre-trib, it is not possible.

Of course, there is nothing here that conflicts with what Jesus said, and Paul might have been referring to what Jesus said (like to his disciples in Matt 24) when he was pointing this things out. For example, Jesus said not to be deceived, and that He would return to gather the elect, using the same sort of language that Paul used (shout, angels, clouds, trumpet). The order that Jesus gave was pretty specific also, but He said this things happen "
immediately after the tribulation of those days".

If these dots are properly connected, then the sequence likely is:

1. The 70th week of Daniel begins

2. In that 7 year period, the man of lawlessnless is revealed

3. likely that is mid-week, and then the great tribulation of about 3-1/2 years (according to Jesus) is on

4. immediatey after that, the Sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall

5. then the Son of Man will appear in the sky and be seen by all, coming on the clouds

6. the dead in Christ will rise in the 1st resurrection and meet the Lord in the air

7. then we (Christians) who are alive at that time, will be raptured (post-tribulation) to join the dead in Christ, made alive again and we will be changed (1 Cor 15:51)

8. Then we shall always be with the Lord. 

Comfort one another with these words. It might be proper to call the rapture "the Blessed Hope", but I think Jesus is our Blessed Hope. I believe, that according to scripture, a pre-trib rapture is just a false hope, and not a blessing at all, just a big disappointment for those expecting it.

Remember, the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.  2 Tim 4

I have wondered, and asked before, if we think that the time of refreshing should be considered to be any time before the tribulation. Maybe you do not know what I am referring to. The idea comes from the book of Acts, chapter 3:

19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

A pre-trib rapture is a pleasant thought, but it is foreign to the pages of scripture. I am not saying that that are not verses and passages that people interpret to imply a pre-trib rapture, certainly there are. What I am saying, is that there is no verse or passage (that I have noticed anyway), which requires such an interpretation, nor specifies such a sequence. Of course, you are free to believe what you will, and ones belief on this topic, does not make one a heretic, nor a grounds for division.

See also:

http://omegazine.com/nutshell.html 

http://omegazine.com/eschatology/bibledoesnotsay.html

The Church is raptured BEFORE the Antichrist/man of lawlessness, is revealed, as the Scriptures clearly reveal, in the original translation of 2 Thess.2:1-8, as documented in the following.  The words, "apostasy," "falling away," and "rebellion," are alterations to verse 3, in 1611 A.D., from then Greek "apostasia" amd Latin "discessio, both of which meaning, "departure," or "to depart," for 16 centuries, and the first seven English translations of the Bible, before being altered, to mean something else.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

Quasar93

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, with your confused hermenutic you have turned Paul's correction to the Thessalonian's into an incoherent mess. Your error is that you approached the text filtering all of it through your flawed pre-trib and faulty dispensational system.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Paul is talking about the parousia and our gathering unto Christ at that time

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He says before that day comes there will be a notable departure from the faith and the man of sin (the Beast) be revealed.

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Beast will be revealed when he stands and sits in the temple shewing that he is God. Jesus spoke of this very thing in Matt 24:15 when he referenced Daniel's abomination of desolation. The revelation of the Beast takes place in the middle of the week after Satan is cast out of Heaven (Rev 12:12). It is at that time that Michael stands up and an unprecedented time of trouble begins (Dan 12:1).

2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had already taught them these truths.

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul said that they already knew what was restraining the revelation of the Beast until it is time for him.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul says that Satan is already at work but is restrained until Michael stands aside in the middle. "The way" is translated from mesos, which means middle.

(See Michael's relationship to the middle of the week on this forum)

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Notice it is after the restrainer is removed that the Beast will be revealed. It is the same Beast that shall be vanquished after his 42 months are over. This will happen at the end of the week at the battle of Armageddon.

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The Beast will be empowered by Satan and he will be performing lying wonders and will deceive all those who received not the love of the truth.

Hallelujah

The very first verse in the passage in 2 Thess.2:1-8, is the theme of it: ""...About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, where all believers will meet the Lord together, in the clouds of the sky, BEFORE the tribulation begins, as 2 Thess.2:3, 7-8 clearly document.

The Church is in heaven for the marriage to the Lamb/Jesus, in Rev.10:7-8, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.  Jesus will then return, in His second coming/parousia, WITH HIS CHURCH in verse 14 

Let me see you try proving my "hermeneutics are confused!"

Quasar93

22 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, what did Jesus charge His disciples with before He ascended up into Heaven?

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Unless you are a hyper dispensationalist you acknowledge this to be the operative responsibility of the church today. Notice that they were to teach them to observe "all things" that Jesus had commanded them. The time Jesus spent with the Apostles was to prepare them for their apostolic ministry as a part of the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). Just because the church wasn't in existence yet doesn't mean that Christ didn't have anything to say to or about it. It is utter foolishness to claim John 14:3 for the church and deny what Jesus said about His coming two days before as recorded in Matt 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as being only for the eschatological Jew. In fact the end of the aion that the disciples asked about in Matt 24:3, that takes place at Christ's second coming, is the same aion (world) that Jesus refers to in Matt 28:20 when he says: "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

By the way, thank you for your service to our country.

All praise, honour, and glory to the lamb

None of the above alters a single thing I previously posted!  Capiche?!

>>>

Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.<<<

Quasar92

Quasar93

51 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, your faith in the work of Thomas Ice, will only lead to ever more false teaching on your part. This a shameful attempt on your part to concoct an explicit statement of a pre-trib rapture where none exists. It is my experience having followed the teaching of Thomas Ice for some time that he is not interested in truth, he appears to only be interested in that which props up the false teaching (pre-tribulationism) that he is so heavily invested in. Even the late Dr. Walvoord spoke against the foolishness of trying to make apostasia mean the rapture.

Your lack of linguistic understanding leaves you vulnerable to all the "supposed evidence" that Ice heaps up. He has you believing that the verb cognates of the noun apostasia can be used to define its meaning. Thomas Ice should know better, but he is happy to give people like you what you want to hear. It just builds his following.

Concerning your question to me, there is nothing wrong with the word departure. In fact all the uses of the noun apostasia in Koine Greek refer to either a religious or political departure. It isn't until the fifth century, long after the Koine period, that there is record of even one use of departure (apostasia) in the physical/spatial sense.

Paul Feinberg wrote, “If one searches for the uses of the noun “apostasy” in the 355 occurrences over the 300-year period between the second century B.C. and the first century A.D., one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure.” He is a pre-tribulationist, but he's doing real research unlike what Thomas Ice is feeding you. Ice heaps up vast amounts of meaningless tripe in an attempt to weary those searching for truth.

You would do well to expand you research of the subject at hand.

Hallelujah

By what authority do you assume to judge me or anyone else pertaining to Biblical eschatology.  Where did you obtain qualifications to teach it?  Your opinionated egotistical arrogance towards me with the hypocritical salutations and blessings deserve no response from me at all.  Dr. Ice came along many years after I had done the same kind of work He is doing now.  The first three posts of the four post link below are all my composition, and an example of much more.  If it would make any difference at all to you, I could quote any of those from the listings of esteemed men of God, from most every Christian teachings instead of Dr. Ice.  

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html
 

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

Quasar92

 

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, you can say that till the cows come home, but it doesn't make it so. You have been deceived into dismissing many of Christ's most pertinent warnings to us and are actively involved in the deception of others. I'm here to expose the lies that you promote. I once believed and taught as you do, until God had mercy upon me and showed me the eisegesis that I was, as you are, involved in.

The shame you will bear for your lack of faithfulness in diligent study when you stand before Christ can be remedied now with repentance and the undoing the harm you have caused to others through this prosperity gospel like escapism that you preach.

If you live long enough you will see the fruit of your pernicious activity when you see the horror upon the faces of those you have deceived when they experience the wrath of the Satan through the Beast and False Prophet that most certainly will come upon the last generation of the church.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Quasar93

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Quasar93, from what you have said it appears that you are in your late 80s or 90s. It is a shame that in all those years you haven't recognized some very simple and easily understood eschatological truths that are given to us in the Holy Scriptures.

Like you, and most other pre-tribers, I recognize that we (the church) are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath (1Thes 5:9). I believe that we, like the faithful church in Philadelphia, will be kept from the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth (Rev 3:10). We will be removed from the earth (raptured) prior to this hour of temptation. I believe, like you, that this hour of temptation is the period of God's wrath poured out at the beginning of the day of the Lord. These truths, we could say, are self evident or easy to grasp. We both have these truths in common.

However, the question remains: "When does God's wrath begin to be poured out upon the earth dwellers?" If we find conclusive statements in the Word of God concerning the timing of the beginning of God's wrath being poured out we can therefore know that we will be raptured prior to that point.

It just so happens that this period, that contains the pouring out of God's wrath, is the most spoken of event in all of the Holy Scriptures. It is called the day of the LORD. If I understand you correctly, you recognize that it is the wrath of God in the day of the Lord that the church is "kept from". So, the question further defined is: "When does the day of the Lord begin?"

There are a hand full of explicit statements concerning conditions that must be so or events that must take place before the day of the Lord can begin. Lets look at some of them.

1) Elijah must come first

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Elijah will come and turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. He will come and fulfill his ministry before the day of the Lord begins.

2) There must be a great cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Many of the eschatological day of the Lord passages mention this cosmic sign involving the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars.

3) Paul gives two conditions: an apostasia (a notable departure from the faith) and the man of sin (Beast) revealed in the temple

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The day of Christ (or the day of the Lord as many manuscripts have it) will not come until the conditions are met that Paul identifies.

Since you see apostasia in an unorthodox way and Elijah's coming might not be easy to identify from this side of the world, lets focus on an event that will be unmistakable and evident to everyone. This event will allow us to identify the beginning of the day of the Lord in relation to other eschatological happenings.

The cosmic sign

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

First it is certain that Joel's cosmic sign must precede the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The word "before" in this context means "prior to". We know this because Peter quotes this verse in Acts 2:20 and Luke under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit recorded it with a Greek word that only means "prior to", as apposed to the Hebrew that Joel used that could mean "in the face of". Since this cosmic sign must come before the day of the Lord are there any other mentions of the sign in relation to the events of the seventieth week? Absolutely.

The most obvious is what John sees when the sixth seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What John sees corresponds closely to Isaiah's prophecy concerning the reaction of the wicked on the day of the LORD when God's wrath is impending. Notice the great earthquake.

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

This that John sees is the response of the earth dwellers to the impending wrath of God which is to begin the very same day. I say "the very same day" because both Jesus and Paul make it clear that the day of Christ's coming and our gathering unto Him will initiate His wrath in the day of the Lord.

The very same day

Notice that Jesus says that when God's wrath was poured out in the days of Noah and Lot, that they were taken to safety, before wrath fell upon the wicked, and that it fell upon them the very same day. He then says that it will happen the same way in the day of His revelation, which is at His coming.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice that Paul identifies that the church will be free from trouble, or to say it another way, have rest from being persecuted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed. It is at Christ's revelation that the church's persecutors will face tribulation in the form of God's vengeance.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Both Jesus and Paul teach that our rescue (rapture) will take place upon the very day that God's wrath falls upon the wicked.

If the wrath of God is preceded by the sun, moon, and stars going dark, and if our rescue (that is, those of us who are alive and remain or survive) happens the same day God's wrath falls upon the wicked, then we can understand that God's wrath doesn't fall until after the cosmic sign seen at the opening of the sixth seal. In fact with further study we will see that the first stroke of God's eschatological wrath is the first trumpet judgement in Rev 8.

No wrath of God upon the wicked at the fifth seal

Notice that there has been no vengeance yet at the opening of the 5th seal. The martyred saints are crying out that their blood be avenged upon the earth dwellers. They are told that vengeance would not come for a little season until others are martyred also.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, there is no wrath of God yet at the opening of the fifth seal.

The first mention of God's wrath in the Revelation is at the opening of the sixth seal where it is portended

Notice also that this is the first use of the word wrath in relation to God's indignation in the book of Revelation. All twelve uses of God's wrath in the book come after the sixth seal is opened.

These cosmic events portend Christ's coming and the wrath that will follow.

Notice what Luke records of Christ's words at the Olivet Discourse.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus says there is 1) the cosmic sign, 2) followed by His coming in a cloud and 3) the redemption of the believer.

Mathew records records Christ's words with additional information.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus here says after 1) great tribulation is cut short (Vs 22) 2) the cosmic sign will appear, 3) then all the world shall see Him coming in the clouds, and 4) He will send His angels to gather His elect to Him.

Are these cosmic signs all the same event?

We have seen some of the places where a cosmic sign is spoken of. The question is whether or not they all refer to the same event. Since there is no statement in any of the passages that "this is that which Joel spoke of," we must reason from the evidence to determine if these all speak of the same event. Lets examine the evidence.

1) Rev 6:12-17

We have already seen from Rev 6:9-11 that God's wrath will not be poured out until a little season after the opening of the fifth seal. We have also seen that at the opening of the sixth seal is the first use of (God's) wrath in the Book. It is also observable that the language used for the cosmic sign is very close between Joel 2:31 and Rev 6:12. Even though "the day of the Lord" is not mentioned by name in Rev 6:12-17 many prophetic aspects of it are present: a great earthquake, the hiding and fear of the wicked, cosmic signs, and the impending wrath of God. It can also be understood that this event portends Christ and involves Christ's coming.

The evidence is extremely strong in favor Rev 6:12-13 being Joel's cosmic sign which must come before the day of the Lord.

2) Luke 21:25-28 and Matt 24:29-31

Since these are both parallel accounts of Christ's words in the Olivet discourse we shall treat them as a comprehensive statement. In the Olivet discourse Jesus is answering four of His disciples questions: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matt 24:3) They wanted to know what events would signal that Christ's parousia (arrival and continuing presence) is at hand (near).

In the answer to their questions Jesus speaks of the condition of the world at the end of the age, leading up to His second coming. He describes a period of trouble involving deception, conquest, war, famine, pestilences, and earthquakes. This period He calls the beginning of sorrows. Note, that nothing about the beginning of sorrows is said to be unprecedented.

After this He identifies a time of severe persecution for Christ's name sake and an associated great deception. He says it will involve many being offended and betraying one another. This will be a great falling away from the Faith. He goes on to further describe this period of severe persecution of the elect and Israel as unprecedented great tribulation. He also ties the beginning of great tribulation to the defiling of the temple (abomination of desolation) spoken of by Daniel. Daniel records that it takes place in the middle of the seventieth week. Jesus says that the persecution will be so severe that it must be Divinely cut short to save some of the elect alive upon the earth. He goes on to warn of great signs and wonders done by the false Christ and false prophet, saying that the deceptive quality of them is so great that if it were possible they would deceive even the very elect. From there He cautions that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, so, do not believe all the various false reports that will be given.

He says that His revelation, at His parousia, will follow the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark, which will signal that the great tribulation is over. The world at that point will immediately become fearful, however the persecuted saints which have survived, at that time will look up and lift up their heads, for their redemption draweth nigh. Jesus says that He will appear in the clouds of heaven with His holy angels. When all the unbelieving world sees Him in His glory, He says they will mourn. He says that He will then send His angels to gather His elect to Him in the clouds.

Now having seen much of Christ's answer, what is the evidence that the cosmic sign He speaks of is that of Joel 2:31 and that which John sees at the opening of the sixth seal.

The cosmic sign of Matt 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 happens before the revelation of Christ with all His holy angels. This is consistent with Paul's description that the at the revelation of Christ the church will find rest from persecution and God's wrath will be poured out.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

There is no mention of God's wrath in the Olivet Discourse until it is inferred in the example of the flood which takes place after the elect are gathered to Christ.

In the chronology given by Christ the cosmic sign of Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25 is the first and only cosmic sign mentioned.

There is strong evidence that the cosmic sign of which Jesus speaks is that prophesied by Joel.

The implications are that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord begins after the great tribulation, the cosmic sign, Christ's revelation in glory in the clouds with the holy angels, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture of the elect (church), the church being escorted to the Father's house to stand before the throne, and the sealing of the 144,000. Then after 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven at the blowing of the first trumpet God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earthdwellers.

Hallelujah

 

 

The fact of the matter is, I am a WWII Vet, in my 95th year, having spent two years in the Pacific/Asiatic theater with the USAAF Air Corp during the war.

With reference to the Day of the Lord, and when it begins:  We are told when that will begin in 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.  Before the man of lawlessness is revealed.  He is revealed in Dan.9:27 [Among a number of other places], as the HE who will confirm a binding seven year agreement [covenant], in addition to the two following "he's" after the three and a half year middle of the week.  Review what Paul wrote about it in 2 Thess.2:2 and 3. 

Quasar93

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

I don't need a translation history, I can read the original text for myself.  Regardless of the desire to change the word to departing, does not change the context of the passage.

Here is the topic of discussion, from verse 1.

 

II Thessalonians 2   Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

His coming and our being gathered together, one event.  

 

II Thessalonians 2: 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Here Paul tells us that the event is called the day of the Lord.  The event is still what was stated in verse 1, His coming and our being gathered =  day of the Lord.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

Don't be deceived Paul warns, because that day, being the aforementioned day of the Lord, will NOT come, unless the rebellion, falling away, or departing as you prefer, comes first.  So as I already pointed out, your position is nonsensical, since the gathering or rapture is part of the event that comes after the rebellion, falling away, or departing.  Doesn't matter what you want to call it, the point is, in context, it happens prior to the rapture as Paul says plainly.

God bless

The following is a message to wingnut from Locknut:  To reveal how far off you are.  Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach eschatology?  The rapture of the Church and the second coming of Jesus WITH His Church, are TWO SEPARATE events.  Review the second post of the four post thread in the following link proven by Scriptural fact that you call "nonsensical:"

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/the-biblical-teaching-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html

Quasar93