Mike 2

Shiloh said "We see that the Father sends Jesus who in turn, sends the Holy Spirit" The father sent Jesus through the Holy Spirit Luk 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will surround you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God. Mat 1:20 After he had thought about it, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. "Joseph, son of David," he said, "don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. The Father sends the Holy Spirit.. Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you. Joh 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. The Son and the Holy Spirit are both sent from the Father. Shiloh said "They were separate at the baptism of Jesus and at the mount of Transfiguration." I don't agree. This post is way off topic but if you would like to discuss this in a separate thread or through emails I would be happy to do that. Shilo said The car analogy doesn't work. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not parts of God. All three are God, one God. But they are also three Persons. again...in another format

There you go, we, man, are applying the word person to a "concept" in an attempt to understand what is revealed to us. The word "person" as defined today no longer does a very good job of defining the concept, if the concept was correctly defined in the first place. The Father does not work separately from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not do anything unless it is first the Fathers will. The only way to know the Father or His will is through God's Holy Spirit. If you have an experience with the Holy Spirit you are experiencing the Father through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not do anything independent like you or I do as a person but only the will of the Father. Look at a car, the engine is not a car , the tires are not a car, the body is not a car. Put them together and you have a car. God is a person. You can give me all kinds of verses and say that they describe the Holy Spirit as a person, but if you look at them as them describing God at work you will see that the person is really God.

I can agree with this I do see the point of others that say God cannot be 3 persons. We have to keep in mind that that term was brought in to being 1700 years ago to try and describe what are 3 distinct ways that we see God at work. The language of the day was a lot different than that of today and as you can see just in this post using that old terminology creates confusion and breaks down our understanding of God. Many in frustration simply say "it's a mystery". It is not a mystery, but the use of 3 persons in 1 has served to fog the reality of God and how He works to many. It doesn't have to be that way! How can the meaning of a word change? Today if you say someone sucks at something it is generally accepted to mean that they are not very good at it. If you were to have said that just 30 years ago, you would have got your face slapped or a punch in the mouth because it meant something different then. Anyways....gotten off the topic of keeping or losing our salvation....pardon me.

Sorry, that is a man made theology that came out of the 3rd century in an attempt to explain how God appears in the bible in 3 ways. God is involved with creation in 3 ways. No different than you and I are. The bible doesn't call them 3 persons, we do.

Biting my tongue Just too much taken out of context and not a lot of thought going into what the biblical text is really saying.

The whole passage is bringing to mind the impossibility of getting to heaven by works. You kind of forgot to include from your Matthew passage the disciples response to what Jesus said, and Jesus subsequent teaching Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were completely astonished. "Who, then, can be saved?" they asked. Mat 19:26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, "For humans this is impossible, but for God all things are possible." The disciples realized that Jesus was teaching that no matter how many or how good we think our works have been....it will never be enough. As he told the person in this passage...ah but there is one more thing you must do...there is always one more thing we must do and it is always the thing we can't do. We all have that ! When the man asked what HE must do Jesus said YOU MUST KEEP all the commandments....IMPOSSIBLE...... ..salvation is only possible through God. The disciples realized the impossibility of it and therefore there must be another way and Jesus tells us. Some people are trapped and chained to thinking that they must do works to get in good with God. I'm free of that way of thinking. I am though captive to believing that the way I act is perceived as a reflection of our Lord to others and I try my best to portray that in a way that will honor Him.

(1) "will be" (2) Can Scripture be broken ? (no) (3) Is ALL Scripture TRUTH ? (yes) (4) "He who endures to the end will be saved" (yes) (5) Condition ? (yes) (6) Others ? (in Yahweh's Word, unchangeable, unalterable, TRUTH) ? Yes. (7) Yahweh says so. Not one particle or dot of His Word will fall to the ground, ever. I am assuming you are talking about Mat. 24:13 because you have quoted it a number of times "He who endures to the end will be saved" (yes) To the end of what? In the context of this discussion, you are assuming the end of their life Here's Barnes' commentary on this verse, and he's not the only scholar saying this Our Lord had ordered his followers to make their escape from Jerusalem when they should see it encompassed with armies; but how could this be done? God took care to provide amply for this. In the twelfth year of Nero, Cestius Gallus, the president of Syria, came against Jerusalem with a powerful army. He might, says Josephus, War, b. ii. c. 19, have assaulted and taken the city, and thereby put an end to the war; but without any just reason, and contrary to the expectation of all, he raised the siege and departed. Josephus remarks, that after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, “many of the principal Jewish people, πολλοι των επιφανων Ιουδαιων, forsook the city, as men do a sinking ship.” Vespasian was deputed in the room of Cestius Gallus, who, having subdued all the country, prepared to besiege Jerusalem, and invested it on every side. But the news of Nero’s death, and soon after that of Galba, and the disturbances that followed, and the civil wars between Otho and Vitellius, held Vespasian and his son Titus in suspense. Thus the city was not actually besieged in form till after Vespasian was confirmed in the empire, and Titus was appointed to command the forces in Judea. It was in those incidental delays that the Christians, and indeed several others, provided for their own safety, by flight. Context , context, context The verse you are using is part of Jesus talking about the destruction of Jerusalem. In fairness, he later goes on to talk of the final days, but not in this part. When we look at the verse you are using in its context, as numerous scholars show, it has nothing to do with losing our salvation. If I look at that verse only as you have drawn it out I am perplexed as to how there could be a conflict with my understanding of what Paul writes in Romans. That said, could I be misunderstanding Paul or what Jesus said? The only way to learn that was to look at both verses in the context of which they were spoken so I can then understand where the controversy is. This is why I like this forum- because it causes me to study. I have written in the very first page of my bible and on the first page of every bible I give away "I have to be willing to be wrong" Otherwise I will ignore what the bible is telling me because of my preconceived ideas. This chain has been riddled with quotes taken out of context for eisegetical use. It started with the original post and seems to have been contagious. Probably because we are putting a priority on responding rather than reading the context of the verses we chose and learning. We have to be fair to ourselves if we are truly seeking to learn and not let our theology form the meaning of the words but let the words form the meaning of our theology. If the words in their context don't bolster our understanding, we are compelled to rethink our understanding.

Well said

Rom 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I don't see any indication here that it is only if God is willing in fact, I don't see any conditions attached to this. This is putting the onus totally on us. This is something that has to be truly heart felt if it is to be real, and only the Lord knows if it is. I believe God draws all people to him and we all have the free will to accept him or not. We all at some point get the opportunity to truly feel his reality in our heart and either accept it or reject it. The reason our "works" are so important is laid out in the rest of Roman 10. We as son's of God bring words forth from the Father into the world. Think about the person that is feeling the Father drawing him and knowing there is something more to this" God thing" they are pondering and one of us shows up "working out our salvation", sharing the Gospel and that person finally gets the piece of the puzzle they've been looking for. God blesses us in that tremendously!! But if we ignore His guidance and urging, particularly if we are caught up in sin, we don't have that opportunity any more. He no longer blesses us because, logically, to bless us in that state would be to encourage a behavior that is drawing us away from His limitless blessings. The first commandment against having false Gods and God being jealous is not because "He is not getting all the glory and worship" It's not about his love for himself (that's selfish), but his love for us. He is jealous for us, that those false Gods are taking us away from experiencing His boundless love. When, because of our flesh, we give in to temptations of worldly gods we struggle with thoughts that God is angry at us and is going to excommunicate and take away our salvation. Paul agonizes over this and addresses it in Rom 7. Here's how sin chains us, enslaves us... it makes us THINK we have lost our salvation, often at least doubting it....that's the deception of Satan Look at how Satan has power over us when we sin Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, he himself also shared the same things, so that by his death he might destroy the one who has the power of death (that is, the devil) Heb 2:15 and might free those who were slaves all their lives because they were terrified by death. Why are people terrified by death??? Because they are afraid they aren't going to heaven!! James addresses the concerns that Christians have over this doubt. Jas 4:7 Be subject therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Jas 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. He's not talking to the unsaved, he's talking to Christians that are struggling with worldly desires....we all do, and often we are tempted to think we have lost our salvation....but that's not true, we have just turned from God and need to turn back in order to feel his warm love and blessings again. We haven't lost our salvation....just our way...like the prodigal, or the branches that were in the vine, cut off and then grafted back in. Even the seed that has been sown (the words of Jesus)and fallen on bad earth because what is going on in our life. "Be free from the love of money, content with such things as you have, for he has said, “I will in no way leave you, neither will I in any way forsake you.”Heb 13:5

The verse you are quoting here is indicating to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, not water Then, maybe I am not understanding what I am reading. I don't mind at all if you have a different point of view than I do and want to challenge me....we learn that way But, Please keep this civil and resist insulting

Hey guys, this has been very stimulating I've really enjoyed it but I gotta beat it for a few hours God Bless

So then if this is true, how can a person lose their salvation? I get the impression from your first post in this thread that you feel if we aren't completely following God we either didn't have salvation to start with (in which case we have nothing to lose) or we can lose it. I am confused with your baby analogy eventually working and that it takes time If that analogy is to apply to a new Christian it is indicating that we work towards and keep our salvation based on works. Am I missing your point? You said.....BUT, if you completely trust by faith in your FATHER IN HEAVEN to accomplish your salvation (and everything concerned with salvation) now, today, in this life, and in the life to come, THEN you are already saved - it is already accomplished. How is that different from Rom 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Seems to me that this will happen at once. ...Now we may not be acting like Christ right away and that will take time...but we're saved

Oh Oh, this could get off topic here

I love this one. I'm writng it down

Who/ what are you addressing?

Then they are not saved and do not fall under the title of "Once saved always saved a doctrine of the devil". They were never saved in the first place. You can't lose something you never had. When saved, we may struggle like you (and Paul) have outlined but that doesn't mean they lose their salvation when they don't completely follow the Father. Think about it, that would mean to be saved we would have to be instantly following everything as you outlined it....impossible, there has to be another way.

Quote Bro.Tan......Coming under the blood of Jesus is when one gets baptized. Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins. "And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16) It is not baptism that washes our past sins, it is the last part of the verse you quoted that does...... "calling on the name of the Lord" Rom 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. The confessing with the mouth can be related to the outward expression of something inward. Bro.Tan quoted....(Rom. 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. This verse is not about losing our salvation, it is about us not receiving Gods blessings. Think about it...why would God bless us when we are sinning, that would just encourage sin. NOTE in the following verse 23, that they can be grafted back in. This isn't about salvation but about living in the kingdom of God. I am noticing that you are taking most of the verses I am responding to out of context, that's called proof texting. you need to read the passage around these verses or you will not get their complete meaning.

I think this is more about walking with God than it is about losing our salvation. Jesus talked about building our houses and then some of our work being burned up and that even though we may have our salvation, some may have nothing else

Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard it, they were exceedingly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” Mat 19:26 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” simpleJeff.....I agree with what you are saying,ultimately, but we are human and as such, you speak the impossible. If our salvation depended on our constantly doing what you are saying we would be saved, then unsaved, then saved, then unsaved as we step out of the light and back in to darkness and back into the light. For me, I relate to what you're saying as it pertains to our Kingdom walk, not salvation. How we can be walking in that light and how sometimes we aren't how stepping out of that puts us in darkness (into sin), uncertainty and from readily feeling Gods love. Paul had this to say about it, and I'm pretty sure Paul didn't lose his salvation. Rom 7:15 For I don’t know what I am doing. For I don’t practice what I desire to do; but what I hate, that I do. Rom 7:16 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, I consent to the law that it is good. Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good. Rom 7:19 For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice. Rom 7:20 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. Rom 7:21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present. Rom 7:22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man, Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, the sin’s law. Nice to know I have a safety net for when I slip and that I don't lose my salvation. There has to be some indicator here that even though we do sin, even though we do not always do what God has put on our hearts, we are still saved.

What is that verse? And what is "it"?

Quoting JTC....Ultimately it's up to Jesus who gets eternal life. Rom 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. There does not appear to be a condition attached to this. No indication here that it is ultimately up to Jesus. Now, having said that. It is the work of Jesus that justifies us Heb 10:10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all ....but once Jesus did that Heb 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; ....he sat down, his work was done. Don't mistake Jesus judging as him deciding who gets eternal life, that's not it at all!! He is judging who has eternal life! Who has accepted the gift. That's what Mathew 25 is about. Because he is the only one that knows the heart of men, he is the only one that can make that judgement call. Quoting JTC.....Whenever Paul and Jesus don't agree I go with Jesus. If Paul, or any of the other writers seem to disagree with Jesus it has to be a misunderstanding on our part. If it were not then the bible would fall apart being riddled with doubt about what is or isn't truth. No, if there is a perceived contradiction, we just don't completely understand what the writer is saying and we need to meditate on it and discuss it. I think it is going to be incredible when I get to heaven and I see all the liars, cheaters, murderers and whatever kind of sinners (heaven will be full of nothing but sinners) I think it is going to be wonderful seeing people that I was sure were going to hell. It will be wonderful because it will mean that they realized their sin and that they had to reach to God and repent. WOW what a change of heart, God is good. I tell you that even so there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous people who need no repentance. Luk_15:7

I like these! They reinforce what Jesus was saying about the sowing of the seed. If we don't follow him, listen to him....abide in him, we cannot produce fruitful work for the Kingdom. He is not only our Savior but our Lord that gives good direction that can benefit others (produce fruit) if we listen.

Oh....wow.... ah, I was kinda hoping for a bible passage that indicates we are to obey Jesus in order to be saved Thanks for the indication of the library though, I didn't know it was available.

I think you are right that there are those that think they are saved but aren't. Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one would boast. I can see our sanctification depending on obeying Jesus. That works move us closer to a Christ like life as we put into practice his teachings as a result of believing them. You say salvation is based on our obeying Jesus. What does that look like?

I believe that both Your closest friendt and the other poster are referring to the same verses but I think it is important to notice that in verse 23 that the person that bears fruit is the one that understands. Some hear the word but don't get how it can not only save them but transform their life. The others hear the word accept it but don't work out their salvation to produce fruit, just because someone is not producing fruit doesn't mean they aren't saved, although it makes you wonder. This can't be used to argue that we can lose our salvation as this is talking about how people deal with receiving the words of Jesus and living in the Kingdom. The ones that "fell away" are falling away from Jesus teachings on how to live a life through the lens of the Kingdom. Can we take a look at what Peter was talking about in the passage you mentioned? What was it?