SwordMaster
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Posts posted by SwordMaster
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On 2/3/2021 at 10:41 AM, Peterlag said:
I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.
There's just one major problem with how you are looking at it, IF the sin nature has been completely destroyed in the believer, then we would no longer be pushed by the flesh into sinful behavior...real world experience dictates that what you are claiming here (along with Scripture) is in error. If the believer has no sin nature...then he is literally dead and in the grave, because the sin nature is part and parcel of the human physical body. The sin nature resides in the flesh...
That being said, all of Paul's admonitions to stop doing the sins of the flesh would be lies or deception if what you believe here was true.
On 2/3/2021 at 10:45 AM, Peterlag said:And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.
What do you do with the Law of Christ? It is written in the NT Scriptures, therefor it is written. If you think that you are not amendable to the Law of Christ, then you are deceiving yourself right out of Christ according to both Paul and James. Because if you are not walking in obedience to the Law of Christ, then you are not in Christ...that is what the Holy Spirit says through John in I John 3:23-24 (not too mention all of the other passages that tell us we are to walk in obedience to the commandments of God that are referring to the Law of Christ, not the old covenant 10 commandments which are dead).
Only the 10 commandments from the old covenant are dead...and only by walking in obedience to the 2 commandments of the New Covenant is one truly alive in Christ and walking with God.
It is a false doctrine that tells people that walking in obedience to God "takes away from the cross of Christ and places it back into your hands" because that is antithetical to what Scripture teaches. Salvation from sin is one thing, eternal life is another all together. No one can get saved by obedience to any law...but believers maintain their standing in Christ as having eternal life by walking in obedience to the Law of Christ, just as Scripture clearly teaches.
On 2/3/2021 at 10:45 AM, Peterlag said:Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
In Rom. 6:2 Paul is talking about purposely choosing to sin, so it does not say what you claim. Same with Rom. 6:6..."that we SHOULD NOT serve sin," the definition of "should not" means that you still have the ability to choose to sin and that you "should" choose not to...it does not say you no longer have the ability to sin. In Gal. 5:16-18 the same thing...Paul is admonishing us to DO something in order to prevent us from sinning (which you say above that we don't do anymore...so you are contradicting Paul).
Then he says "IF"...but unless I am misunderstanding you above, according to you it should say simply, "You are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." That is not what he says...he says, "IF"...that means you still have a sin nature that YOU need to put under control.
And, BTW, the law that he refers to in that verse is the Mosaic law, not the Law of Christ...so even if one is led by the Spirit he is still under the Law of Christ, or else he isn't led by the Spirit...but by his own carnal mind deceiving him (James 1:22).
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On 2/3/2021 at 7:33 AM, steve morrow said:
IS DISOBEDIENCE WALKING IN THE SPIRIT
ACTS 1:1 the former treatise have I made O theophilus of all that JESUS began both to do and teach --1:2-- until the the day in which HE was taken up after that HE through the holy spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom HE had chosen
JOHN 12:49 FOR I HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF MYSELF BUT --THE FATHER-- WHICH SENT ME HE GAVE ME A COMMANDMENT WHAT ---I SHOULD SAY AND WHAT I SHOULD SPEAK---
--12:50 AND I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING --- WHATSOEVER I SPEAK --- THEREFORE --- EVEN AS THE FATHER SAID UNTO ME SO I SPEAK
JOHN 3:35 THE FATHER LOVETH THE SON AND HATH GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HAND
JOHN 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth --THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING-- the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life
1 CORINTHIANS 8:5 for though there be that are called gods whether in heaven or in earth as there be gods many and lords many --8:6-- BUT TO US -- there is but one --GOD THE FATHER--of whom are all things and we in HIM and one --LORD JESUS CHRIST-- by whom are all things and we by HIM
HEBREWS 2:8 thou hast put all things in subjection under HIS feet for in that HE put all in subjection under HIM HE left --NO THING-- that is not put under HIM but now we see not yet all things put under HIM
2 THESSALONIANS 2:8 AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED WHOM THE LORD SHALL CONSUME WITH --THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH-- AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING
1 TIMOTHY 2:5 FOR THERE IS ONE GOD AND --ONE MEDIATOR-- BETWEEN GOD AND MEN -----THE MAN JESUS CHRIST-----
LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
I'm not sure who you are addressing, or what all of these passages have to do with the OP...
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On 2/3/2021 at 7:22 AM, Josheb said:
Then I encourage you to read the last half of Romans 11 and on through the first half of Romans 12 and remember God's work in us and our collaborative work with God are not mutually exclusive conditions.
The "last half of Romans 11" (11:25-36?) regards Israel, not people in general...and I agree, our "work" and that which God does within the believer are not mutually exclusive, which is what I read in the passage. God does certain works in us AS we are doing what we are supposed to be doing...but all of His works that He does in us are not mediated in us like that.
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On 2/2/2021 at 8:45 PM, Paul James said:
This is what developmental sanctification is all about.
I have never heard the term "developmental sanctification," it sounds like something someone made up while trying to make a name for himself...
There are two forms of holiness...the imputed holiness of Christ to our account, and our daily walk with God in practicing being holy (set apart unto God for His purposes). While our personal practice can be thought of as "progressive" I would have a hard time calling it developmental.
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5 hours ago, Peterlag said:
Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. It now seems clear to me that this concept of what the Christians believe today is not what the Scriptures teach.
Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed.
Again, this is not what Scripture teaches when we take it as a whole. Taking this and that passage alone when there are a plethora of passages that address the issue, is not how its done (not done right, anyway).
This death is addressed by the grammar of the Greek text as being figurative, NOT literal. Your sin nature does NOT die...if it did, then Paul is a liar by writing Romans chapter 7 where he says that you WILL fight sin for the rest of your life, unless you make it to the point of walking in the Spirit and the motions of the sinful flesh are subdued by the Spirit.
What you say above is in direct opposition to what the Scriptures as a whole teach.
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5 hours ago, Peterlag said:I don't see what you see. I am walking in the spirit because it's who I am. The old is gone. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ.The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real.So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once a person is in Christ.
There are a number of issues here with what Scripture actually teaches us, Peterlag, but I don't have time to get into them all. The ONLY thing that changes according to Scripture when a person gets saved, referencing his nature, is that now he is no longer just a man, he is a man with the Holy Spirit indwelling him.
This is what the "new nature" is all about if you study the subject carefully...it does NOT mean that YOU changed significantly in any other way. The "old man" is the old man that used to practice sin, but is now not supposed to be, but YOU as you didn't change...that isn't what Scripture teaches.
If the old self was "entirely obliterated" then you would not be here talking about it...because you place what is spoken of in figurative language as meaning literally, and in that there are a number of other problems.
Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to show you where what you claimed is not according to Scripture when it is taken as a whole.
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5 hours ago, Josheb said:
Sounds good but remember we don't renew our own mind; it is renewed for us by the Word/Spirit and we should be collaborative agents pursuing more and more as prompted from God within.
I see what you are saying, but I don't see that in Scripture...
Ephesians 4:22-24 that you are to turn away from your former behavior and way of life, from the old man of sin that corrupts you spiritually through the lusts of deceitful propensities that seduce to sin, and lead to disappointment; and that you be in a continual state of spiritual renewal in the disposition of your mind, which God works in us as we practice righteousness and true holiness, enabling us to put on the new man.
This is a translation straight from the Greek and its grammar. Paul says that we renew our own minds as we practice righteousness and holiness (the two sides of the coin of obedience), which makes perfect sense. In any kind of physical training, the more you do something, the more it affects your reflexes and muscle memory, the better you are at what you are practicing. The more we practice righteousness and holiness, the more our mind is trained for godliness...the more our minds are molded into the 'image' (if you will) of godliness which directly affects our attitudes and behavior.
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5 minutes ago, Josheb said:
Can I PM you about this? Just have a couple of questions.
Sure...PM away!
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7 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I have no idea what you are saying. Either we walk in the spirit (our new nature) or we don't.
I think there is a concern here...Scripture doesn't appear to use "walking in the Spirit" as a descriptive of the regenerated person's new nature. If it did, then verse 13 would be an automatic phenomena and all Christians would not suffer through the motions of the sin in their flesh as moving them to sin.
Walking in the Spirit according to Paul isn't a "natural" thing...it appears to be a choice that one must work at in order to 'get to that point' in their walk with God.
Blessings!
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On 2/1/2021 at 12:27 PM, Peterlag said:
What a great subject to bring up. I think we need to first begin to find out what the spirit is.
This is a good point, one of the first things I did was to investigate the word "spirit" in Paul's discussion in Romans 8 to determine whether or not it means the Holy Spirit or just "spirit"...and if just "spirit" (meaning NOT the Holy Spirit) then in what intention.
From what I can tell as to how it is used in the texts and the context, it intends the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the next logical step, is what does the phrase "walking in the Spirit" mean...because can it actually mean that one can live "in the Spirit" of God? That doesn't seem possible when a full and complete study on the Holy Spirit is made.
Therefore, the phrase "walking in the Spirit" is like a covenant legal term, like "eternal life" is, that does not actually mean what the general definitions of the words in the phrase mean.
Its like the word "abstract"...in general street terms, it is used of a style of art and paintings; but in a legal atmosphere it can take on either of two other meanings. In the court room, abstract means a summery of the charges and sentencing from the judges bench, called an "abstract of judgment." While in law enforcement circles, an abstract is all of the pertinent information on a warrant of arrest sent from one agency to another when the subject of the arrest warrant is apprehended in a jurisdiction other than the one in which the warrant was issued.
In like manner, the phrase "eternal life" as used by Jesus Himself (as an example) in John 17:3, does NOT mean what the generally accepted meaning of the words mean...here it is specifically used by Jesus as a new covenant legal term meaning that one is in covenant relationship with God. How do we know this? It would take hours to explain in this format with no ability to give diagrams, etc...the short answer is in the way He uses the term, which He used many times...sometimes to mean making it to the consummation of eternal life in heaven, and sometimes as covenant relationship with God.
Failing to make this Biblical distinction has led to numerous false ideologies and false teachings regarding salvation, eternal life, and who makes it to heaven.
In any case, I do believe that "the Spirit" here refers to the Holy Spirit, and is used in a metaphorical sense for one who, as the texts state, have so renewed their minds with the things of God that God and the things of the Spirit are practically always in either the backdrop, or forefront, of their minds...to the effect that all of the stimulus that their minds receive are automatically filtered through (for lack of a better way of saying it) a Holy Spirit sieve.
what I mean is...no matter what they see or hear, what they see and hear passes through the renewed mind controlled by the Holy Spirit, and any Scripture that addresses that subject matter is brought to mind. What is according to the Spirit is reinforced...and what is according to the flesh is checked and rejected.
Anyway, these are my initial thoughts on the subject with no study behind them as yet.
Blessings!
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On 1/31/2021 at 12:16 PM, Josheb said:
@SwordMaster, do you find that answer or that practice helpful in answering the question, "What does 'walking in the Spirit' mean?" Anyone else find that consistent with walking in the Spirit? Or the standard set by Jesus or Paul? Or a proving response from which non-believers might benefit?
I find that the discussion is being side-tracked over and over again.
I do believe that I found the answer to what I was looking for...and in case anyone missed it, it appears that one must renew his mind before he is able to walk in the Spirit as Paul addresses in Romans 8:4-13. I used to be in the Word for most of my days as a younger man...it appears that I need to MAKE time to specifically meditate upon the Word.
I read at least an hour a day, for years...but just reading doesn't seem to be cutting it. The next step is to meditate...where the Hebrew and Greek words actually mean to mutter to yourself about...to talk to yourself about...not just read it. Just reading is good, don't get me wrong...but if we are not soaking our mind with the Word by meditating upon it, then it appears we are missing out on a great blessing.
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On 1/30/2021 at 4:49 PM, popsthebuilder said:
Would not walking in the Spirit be known according to ones doings? What is akin to the fruit of the Spirit?
Love (Greek: agape, Latin: caritas)
Joy (Greek: chara, Latin: gaudium)
Peace (Greek: eirene, Latin: pax)
Patience (Greek: makrothumia, Latin: longanimitas)
Kindness (Greek: chrestotes, Latin: benignitas)
Goodness (Greek: agathosune, Latin: bonitas)
Faithfulness (Greek: pistis, Latin: fides)
Gentleness (Greek: prautes, Latin: modestia)
Self-control (Greek: enkrateia, Latin: continentia)
From my studies and life experience, the fruit of the Spirit is what begins growing and maturing in a person's life as they spend more and more time in God's presence in prayer and worship (including personal quality time with God in fellowship conversation [just talking to God, in other words]). The more time one spends with God in His presence, the more he is saturated by His presence which has a direct affect upon one's behavior.
This is why we have people who call themselves Christians for decades, yet have none of the fruit apparent in their lives...because they believe they are saved, on their way to heaven, and don't have to do anything further. That includes spending time with God in prayer...people have not been taught the importance of prayer, nor the purpose of prayer, in our churches today (for the most part). And that lack of the basics in their lives is one of the major problems in the church today.
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On 1/30/2021 at 4:27 PM, popsthebuilder said:
Wouldn't walking in the Spirit be basically turning from selfish worldly desires and doing for self, and turning towards the things one knows are good and help the sake of another?
I used to think so...but few of the suggestions made so far work according to Romans 8:13 in mortifying the motions (deeds) of the flesh.
If all of the answers people have given so far were accurate, and the full answer, then practically everyone posting should not be hampered or falling to sin, yet would anyone say that this is true of themselves?
If just walking in obedience to God mortified the motions of the sinful flesh, then why do we still struggle with sin? Obedience can't be the answer...not in its fullness, anyway.
I believe Scripture is true, therefore walking in the Spirit, according to the Holy Spirit writing through Paul, eventually mortifies the deeds of the flesh...which means according to the Greek, that walking in the Spirit renders the motions of sin in the flesh ineffective against the one who is walking in the flesh. In other words, it isn't me keeping myself from a sinful action being motivated by the flesh - it is that the Spirit deadens those motions to the point that we know we are being attacked by sin, but that it doesn't have the power over us that it would normally have.
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Perhaps I need to go further with what is still enigmatic to me here...
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
According to how I am reading Paul here...if one is walking in the Spirit, then the "deeds (motions) of the flesh" will be mortified...rendered inert. Yet no one that I have ever known has ever confessed that at any time in their walk with God, even while having the things of God in their minds as often as they can, had they ever had the motions of the flesh subdued.
Now...when I was a young man in the Marines, I was stationed in Japan and for most of the time there I was hit with kidney stones, hospitalized, operated on (cutting my stomach muscles so that I couldn't sneeze without killing myself), and confined to my quarters because I couldn't do anything. All I did for practically a month and a half, was stay in my room, read my Bible, pray, quality time with God, and worship.
During this time, it came to pass that for a short period of time (that is, until I was shipped back to the States), for about two months or thereabouts, the motions of the flesh were sufficiently mortified in me. That is, all of the previous temptations of the mind and motions of the flesh (predominantly in sexual sin) were effectively null and void...in other words, I knew when I was hit with something, whether natural or demonic, but for lack of a better way of saying it...they affected me no greater than like water rolling off a duck's back.
So, I believe that I experienced this mortification of the motions of the flesh that Paul here talks about...but I have struggled ever since then to get back to that place to no avail. I have tried to walk in the Spirit as much as I can, but with all of the daily mental demands of adult life in this country, I have not succeeded. It seems that I have been missing something that I did while in Japan that I have not been able to figure out - hence the purpose and reason for this thread.
I do my best to walk in obedience to God every day. I do my best to try to keep spiritual, godly things in my mind...but that doesn't always work.
Through this conversation, the one thing that has come to my mind that I hadn't thought of before, is renewing the mind...it seems that renewing the mind is necessary before one can walk in the Spirit (keeping one's mind centered upon the things of the Spirit - Romans 8:5).
So, if this is the answer, it makes sense. While in Japan, I had nothing on my mind but God almost 24/7...and my mind eventually became renewed with the thought patterns of the Spirit. So I guess the answer is that I need to spend time memorizing Scripture...which makes sense as building one up mentally to be able to walk in the Spirit...
Joshua 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
Psalms 1:1-3 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.
So...thanks everyone, you helped me come to a conclusion and plan of action.
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On 1/30/2021 at 3:57 PM, Josheb said:
@SwordMaster off-topic but I am curious about you. Are you familiar with the suzerain covenants commonly practiced in ancient times? Short answer will do. Not interested in derailing the op.
Yes...suzerain-vassal covenants, promissory covenants, marriage covenants, and standard 1st century economic (business) covenants.
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On 1/30/2021 at 3:29 PM, Paul James said:
We must remember that until the Day of Pentecost, believers were still subject to the Old Covenant;
I don't want to side-track the discussion, but I felt the urge to correct this statement because it leads into many other doctrines. The old covenant ended with Christ's baptism by John the Baptist; it was fulfilled by Christ and abrogated. All that Jesus taught and demonstrated during His 3 year ministry was the new covenant which ushered the kingdom of God into the realm of men.
Many believe that the new covenant didn't begin until the cross or the resurrection, but a diligent study in the gospels demonstrates that in Christ's own words, He fulfilled and abrogated the old and inaugurated the new.
Blessings!
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I found this sermon and pretty much everything he says is spot on. I thought I would share it because in the coming days and months we are going to need to know how to walk in God's presence, since America has fallen to the social-marxists...
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Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Remember that in my last update post on this examination, this passage is what kept throwing me for a loop, because it appears to directly contradict verse 4-5 because in those verses, Paul seems to be saying that we cause ourselves to walk in the Spirit, and this verse says that if the Spirit indwells a person, he is automatically walking in the Spirit. And, again, God does not contradict Himself, so further investigation into these verses is necessary, which led me to the following:
Romans 8:9 in Greek:
ὑμεῖς δὲ οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐν σαρκὶ, ἀλλ ἐν πνεύματι, εἴπερ Πνεῦμα Θεοῦ οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν. εἰ δέ τις Πνεῦμα Χριστοῦ οὐκ ἔχει, οὗτος οὐκ ἔστιν αὐτοῦ. (verse 9 only)
The word de is a conjunctive particle which can mean either BUT (an adversative conjunction); AND (a continuative conjunction) or ALSO (an interrupted continuative conjunction) used when a previous thought that has been interrupted is now being returned to for further elaboration.
Most translations miss the way that Paul structures this section of his letter, and so translate it as “but.” In verses 6-8 Paul interrupts his thoughts on those walking in the Spirit and temporarily addresses those walking in the flesh. Then in verse 9 he returns to his thoughts on those walking in the Spirit...so we have translated it accordingly, rendering de as “also” –
Also, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God is dwelling within you. But, if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within him, then he does not belong to Christ.
A number of commentators and theologians (Meyer, Barnes, Clarke, Roberts, Jamieson, Faucet, Brown, Zodhiates, etc.) suggest that here Paul isn’t addressing so much the fact of being in the Spirit as he is the ability to be in the Spirit because the believer has the indwelling Spirit of God within them. JFB Commentary continues the thought, “It thus appears that to be “in the Spirit” means here to be under the dominion of our own renewed mind; because the indwelling of God’s Spirit is given as the evidence that we are “in the Spirit.”
In other words, the ability to walk in the Spirit only comes by God’s Spirit dwelling within the believer, and the more the believer renews his mind the greater extent that he will be able to walk in the Spirit, having God’s Word internalized and affecting the background of all that he sees, hears, and thinks.
So, after I came to this last night, there no longer appears to be a conflict between the three verses. In particular, the introduction of renewing one's mind into the discussion hits home with my mind...how can one mind the things of the Spirit if he is still unrenewed in his mind by the Word of God?
What do ya'all think?
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57 minutes ago, Waggles said:
Oh how wrong you are. You do greatly err in your use of scripture.
One cannot enter the Kingdom of God without the indwelling Holy Spirit (God making his abode within a true worshipper, thus such disciples become temples of God)
One does not have the Holy Spirit without the God given evidence of speaking (or rather praying) in tongues - a spiritual prayer language of the Holy Spirit (and promised to believers by Jesus himself).
I think you are confusing indwelling of the Spirit with the baptism of the Spirit. I am with Josheb on this one. Walking in the Spirit doesn't mean that a person is literally encased in the Holy Spirit, it is a phrase meaning that one is doing something (exactly what I am still in the middle of processing).
All one needs to do in order to be able to walk in the Spirit, is have the indwelling Spirit of God (in other words, he is saved and regenerated by the Spirit) - no where in Scripture that I have found is it even hinted at that one must be baptized in the Spirit in order to walk in the Spirit...which reminds me, I found something last night after posting my last posts regarding Romans 8:9...(next post coming up)...
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11 hours ago, Waggles said:
Au contraire but these scriptures in Galatians do precisely instruct us as to walking in the Spirit. All the epistles instruct us unto righteousness and living to serve God and the gospel.
It is not complicated.
So, what you are saying, is that walking in the Spirit means that we practice righteousness and holiness in obedience to God and His Word...right?
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16 hours ago, Paul James said:
The bottom line to all this is that we need to encourage those open to the Gospel, to make a strong decision for Christ, seek to be fully converted to Him through the work of the Holy Spirit, and to receive the baptism with the Spirit with the complete potential to develop in the ministry and gifts of the Spirit as the believer develops toward maturity in the faith. Good, sound discipleship of new believers should achieve this and increase the number of them to develop into sound, long-term church members moving into their calling in Christ to do their bit to build up the body of Christ.
Yes, indeed these things are true...but we have gotten off track. How does Scripture tell us to walk in the Spirit?
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1 hour ago, Josheb said:
This might seem like a simple, easily answered question at first but it's not... There is a valid mysticism to scripture and the Christian life but being spiritual is not hocus pocus, fantastical, magic that cannot be explained.
A very well thought-out response, that is very informative...but I read it three times and didn't see where you suggested an answer. Could you nub it down a little for me!
Thanks...and thanks for the input!
Blessings!
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2 hours ago, Paul James said:
I don't see how anyone can be converted to Christ before the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost The Scripture says that believers are baptised into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
I just wanted to answer in parts so there is no confusion (on either my end or yours!). So, just to get it out of the way, this question precludes the 11 disciples who walked with Jesus for 3 years...and quite possible the 120 in the upper room because even though they were not apostles, they were part of those who followed Jesus and most likely supported His ministry. So...
First thing to look at is the passage you reference:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
This is one of the few places in the NT where "baptism" is being used metaphorically, not literally. Here Paul is talking about the indwelling Spirit which every believer receives the moment they receive salvation, the word here is not literally being baptized into the body of Christ. This is confirmed in that Paul then says the same thing in the last clause only in different words...that "all (in the body) were made to drink of one Spirit." The "drink" is also not literal, but figurative of partaking in the Holy Spirit via Him dwelling within them.
As for the first sentence, remember that the Holy Spirit was in the world before Christ came, which the OT gives plenty of evidence for. That and the fact that Scripture tells us that the Spirit draws people to Christ...and we have the 120 and numerous episodes in the Gospels where people came to Christ in sincerity, obviously the Spirit was at work.
The Day of Pentecost regarding the outpouring of the Spirit, did not signal that NOW the Spirit was in the world - the outpouring of the Spirit only signified that the specific working of the Spirit in believers was now available - that specifically being the "Baptism in the Spirit."
2 hours ago, Paul James said:But if the Holy Spirit was not present while Christ was still in the world, how can believers be baptised into the body of Christ if the Holy Spirit does it.
A good question...Strictly Scripturally speaking, no one was baptized into the Body of Christ except for the 11 apostles when they recevied the Spirit and were saved...
John 20:22
And when Jesus had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.At that moment was when the disciples were born again, the first members of the body of Christ, and then they received the baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost. Remember that the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration (a fancy word meaning born from God), and He only indwells those whom He regenerates because their sins have been forgiven and cleansed.
2 hours ago, Paul James said:And, how could there be a body of Christ until the coming of the Holy Spirit caused it to be birthed?
Another excellent question that is also explained by John 20:22...the church was born the moment the 11 received the indwelling Spirit. Pentecost was not the birth of the church, that was only the bomb that exploded that enlarged the church by 3000 people on that day, and another 5000 the next day. Jesus isn't the church, believers are...so the first believers who were born again (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit constituted the birth of the church - and that was the 11 when they received the indwelling Holy Spirit.
2 hours ago, Paul James said:Does this mean that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising believers into the body of Christ?
No, it is not the same thing. Every believer, the moment they promise to walk in obedience to God in the baptismal confession, and then receive baptism into Christ, immediately have their sins forgiven according to Scripture (Acts 2:38, among others), and receive the gift of the indwelling Spirit. This is "the Holy Spirit baptizing believers into the body of Christ." The baptism of the Spirit is for a completely different thing...
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."The whole purpose of the baptism in the Spirit is to endow saved believers with the power to become witnesses for Christ, and as we see throughout Acts the baptized believer can also receive many subsequent fillings where they become bold, fearless, and speak the Word of God while staring death in the face. The purpose of the indwelling Spirit is completely different from the baptism in the Spirit.
2 hours ago, Paul James said:Does this mean that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising believers into the body of Christ? It seems that the events of the Day of Pentecostal, Cornelius' household and the Ephesian disciples show that this is what happened.
Not when we take the details of Scripture into consideration and examine them fully.
2 hours ago, Paul James said:I think that the general confusion about these things is because every denomination teaches different interpretations of how the Holy Spirit is involved in the conversion and empowering of believers.
I agree. And another part of the confusion is that denominations made their doctrinal statements without FULLY examining the Scriptures according to a complete Biblical hermeneutic. Add to that the fact that once a person has been indoctrinated into one particular bias, it is practically an act of God to get that person to even look at any other viewpoint...because no one likes to be told they are wrong.
That is the difference between a bias-defender and a truth-seeker...the latter is willing to lay down his bias and listen to someone if the other person can give Biblical evidence, where the former doesn't care what you show them, they will go to their grave holding to their bias even when it can be demonstrated wrong.
Blessings!
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2 hours ago, Paul James said:
A good response!
Thank you. I agreed with almost everything you stated in that response, particularly when it comes to the general statement that probably only 20% of those who call themselves Christians, truly are Christians. This has been a worry to me for years, but the only thing one can do is pray that God will raise up called preachers and teachers who have His anointing and gifting to accurately read, understand, and teach His truth...and today most behind pulpits are false pastors (men who were not called or gifted by God to fill that position).
There was one thing, however, that I see no room for in Scripture, and that is the idea that people are baptized in the Spirit without the evidence of speaking in tongues (IF I understood you correctly, but I might not have).
In every account in Acts where a person is identified as being baptized by the Spirit, the initial evidence of speaking in tongues is there. I know that certain sects teach that this is not so, yet again the Scriptural evidence stands clear.
Personally, I know people who were baptized in the Spirit, spoke in tongues in that moment, but have never spoken in tongues again...for 20 years or more. And I know of people who have never been baptized in the Spirit who have their spiritual prayer language (Jude 1:20 among others). Yet people in both groups would manifest their particular spiritual gifts according to I Cor. 12.
Blessings
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Walking in the Spirit
in General Discussion
Posted
Actually, when a verse addresses the flesh, it is speaking about the sin nature, it is no misnomer. The flesh and the sin nature are synonymous...they are the same thing. A careful study of every passage in the NT that addresses the flesh (106) is ample enough to demonstrate that fact.
Blessings!
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