Paper mache

Luke 12:11-12 (NASB) "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rules and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." Matthew 10:18-20 (NASB) "And you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the SPIRIT OF YOUR FATHER who speaks in you." It seems as though these two parallels indicate that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father. Which, if the Father and the Holy Spirit are two separate Persons, this just doesn't make sense to me. And if I'm wrong, then please kindly point that out. I'm not looking for a physical body. Yes, I know that Jesus asks the Father to send another Helper. But I don't see how this means the Helper has to be a person. I don't think I'm going to be continuing this thread much longer. In my attempts to grow closer to God, I am only growing more and more confused as time goes on. So I'm going to be taking a break from debating and things of the sort, and I'll be focusing solely on what the Bible says. I don't know if the HS is a person or a power. But I know what the Bible directly tells me. Despite what some of you think, I am taking what you guys are saying and considering it. I have already denounced (if that's the right word) my first claim that I proposed when I made the thread, that the HS is definitely a force, not a person. But although my new belief on this subject is completely muddled and confusing, I no longer hold that idea. And, I really don't know how much more confusion I can take at the moment. It weighs down on me spiritually. Proverbs 3:5-6 (KJV) "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

The fact that the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he/him" doesn't convince me that the HS is a person. There are other explanations, such as grammar/translation instead of theological doctrine, and the fact that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Spirit of the Father/Christ could mean that the "he/him" is referring to the Father/Christ. Can you please try not to be rude? If you're not intentionally being rude, you really need to work on how you word things. And, a mention of a name doesn't automatically make the name mentioned God. So I don't know what source you're getting your reasoning from, but it isn't the Bible. If there is only ONE verse in the Bible that supports Trinitarian doctrine directly (Matthew 28:19), and that verse doesn't even explicitly state that all three of the names mentioned are God/part of the Godhead, then the support for the Trinitarian doctrine isn't very strong. Got any biblical proof that this is a prophecy? (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything. If you supply biblical proof, I will accept it.)

What the Bible really means is debatable. Here are the main reasons I doubt the personality of the Holy Spirit; 1) On multiple occasions, when Jesus Christ and God the Father are mentioned as authoritative figures (as we see in the epistles and other places such as when Paul spoke of Christ sitting on the right hand of God the Father in Colossians 3:1, and the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned, and also when Stephen looked into heaven in Acts 7:55 and saw Jesus standing next to the Father, but the Holy Spirit is only mentioned as the instrument by which Stephen saw it), the Holy Spirit is omitted. If the Holy Spirit were a co-equal Person of the Holy Trinity, wouldn't he be there with the other two Persons? 2) Since we are told to worship God, and there are verses specifically telling us to worship the Father and the Son, why aren't there any verses telling us to worship the Holy Spirit? Of course, there are verses which seem to point to a personality. And I may be a little stumped on those. But I suppose a possible explanation would be that God the Father and Jesus Christ are spirits, they are made up of a substance "Spirit". They are both holy, so they are Holy Spirits. So perhaps when the Bible speaks of the Spirit doing things, it is actually either Christ or God the Father that are actually doing the things. But, this is only speculation and I'm not trying to put this idea forth as truth. I don't know if it holds up Scripturally yet. "In the name of" is just about the same as "by the authority of". So, when we hear a cop yell to a running criminal, "Stop, in the name of the law!" Is the law a person? Of course not. Do you think you could please explain further?

Then I will not worship or pray to the Holy Spirit. If there are no examples of it being done and there are no commands to do so, then I won't do it. I do recognize that the Holy Spirit either is a person of the Godhead or a force of God, maybe even both. I don't think I'm even going to continue trying to figure it out. God can't be understood, and that includes the Holy Spirit.

Are there any verses telling us to worship/praise the HS?

Matthew 28:19 is speaking about baptism though, not the Godhead or what composes the Godhead. As of right now, I don't know what the Holy Spirit is. I don't know if it's a person or a force, or if it's both, or what. But, I do know what Scripture tells me (The HS will guide us into all truth; convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment; indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers, us; etc.). As far as I know we are not commanded to worship the HS in the Bible. If I'm wrong, somebody please point out a verse or two that tells us to worship the HS.

It appears to me, because of that last line in John 14:15-17 "...He dwells with you..." that these verses could possibly be referring to the Spirit of Christ, since Christ was dwelling with them at the time, and His Spirit would soon dwell IN them. I'm using the definition of God as in essence - the nature. Is this the incorrect definition? Thanks! I'll look into the Upper Room Discourse. If the Trinity is the truth, I pray that God reveals it to me. God bless --- I agree whole-heartedly.

We'll have to agree to disagree. And, your accusations are false. The reason I switched from trinitarian beliefs to binitarian beliefs in the first place was because I am looking for the truth. I was very uncomforyable with making that switch, because I knew my parents and boyfriend wouldn't like it. So I haven't told them yet. If I find truth about a trinity in the Bible, I will accept it. The truth of the matter is, I am tired of this debate. You are using the same arguments in this debate, expecting to change something by using the same arguments. It doesn't work like that. I have not found any convincing arguments for the trinity, only against the trinity, and that is the truth. Could that change? Yes. I am NOT trying to evade the truth, I am not trying to only look at what backs up my beliefs. I want tknow the truth. If you believe otherwise, then so be it. I don't care. God knows the truth about me, and that's all that matters. Assuming makes a donkey out of both of us. Don't do it. & btw, no, we don't see "God the Son." And that is why I don't believe God the Father and God the Son are the same. I believe The Son is divine, but He is not THE God. He just shares His father's nature, due to being His literal Son (which would explain how He acts subordinate to the Father). I believe the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father and of Christ, so when Christ speaks of sending another comforter, He's actually speaking of sending His own Spirit. If I see anywhere in the Bible that we are to praise and worship the HS, then I'll search more into that and possibly change my beliefs again, because that shows that the HS would have to be God, since even the angels said to only worship God when multiple people fell down to worship them. Those are my beliefs at the moment, and they will remain so until I find proof in the Bible. I am not going to debate anymore on this subject, for now. I may return to this thread later or make a new one.

In some languages, lifeless objects are either feminine or masculine, unlike in the English language where everything is neuter (aside from the occasional car being referred to as a "she" and things like that). For example, in French, "the door" is "la porte". Both 'la' and the '-e' ending indicate that the door is feminine. Does this make the door a female person? Of course not! In some cases, where the HS is referred to as "he," it is a matter of grammar/translation, not of theological doctrine. The word used for "spirit" is masculine. In some cases, though, Jesus is simply speaking about Himself in third person, such as in Matthew 13:41; 17:22-23; 19:28; 20:18-19, etc. Since the HS is the Spirit of both the Father and Jesus Christ His Son, He is basically talking about Himself in third person. Which of these two explanations is to be used can be figured out by reading the context of the word. I have John 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9. Jesus is the Word, yes? Whose Word? God's Word. So, my understanding is that Jesus was begotten when God first spoke. Could I be wrong? Yeah. So I'm still reading my Bible and doing research. Not really. I know where you're coming from, but at the same time I don't see it. I would like to note how the Holy Spirit is God, according to Trinitarian belief. So to say that the HS and God are acting separately would imply that the HS isn't God. Well I deny that as well. We can't even say that personal attributes were given to the HS. And, as I said, personification may have been used. Any Bible verses to support that last part, aside from Genesis 1:2? I don't ever see a "God the Spirit" in the Bible. I only really see the "(Holy) Spirit" and the "Spirit of God". Edit: I no longer have any energy to debate, the debate is growing quite redundant. I'll do more Bible study and reading, and I'll change my mind if Scripture shows me a Triune God. That hasn't happened yet.

I never denied that the HS was divine. Just that it's not a person. It's a force. Right. Because before everything was created, there was no such thing as time. But The Word (Jesus) was still begotten. Is it possible for us to understand this? Probably not, because we don't understand timelessness. Can you please point out the exact words that show us that they are separate? what's the difference? I would still like you to answer my question. It is relevant. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

I want to remind you that I do believe in the deity of Christ. That verse in isaiah is not calling the HS God. The Word (Jesus) was begotten of God even before His birth on earth. That's where we get the "let US make man in OUR image." That was God talking to His Son. In Gen 1:2, we have no reason to believe the Spirit is separate from god. Scripture doesn't tell us this. It's only an assumption. And I know what you're saying about the being lied to and grieved etc. but those things do not give the HS personhood. do you believe your soul is a person?

Honestly, if I was basing it off Scripture alone, I would never even come across the idea of the Trinity.

It is clear in the Bible that Jesus and the Father are both God in nature. God the Father, however, is THE God. Jesus is THE God's Son. This is what Scripture teaches. Nowhere is the Holy Spirit mentioned as a personal part of the trinity. You are right, spirits are invisible. But that's all the HS is - a Spirit. The Spirit of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, God's Son. The Spirit isn't a personal being. God the Father is the One who speaks to us through God's Word (which is Jesus). Jesus is God's Word. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. It's the same reason we don't pray to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's job in Scripture is to point us to Jesus who then points us to the Father. You make the erronous suggestion that Jesus (the Son) is the same as God The Father, which is incorrect. So we couldn't say the same about Jesus. Jesus is God by nature because He is God's literal Son, but He is not THE God. Bob has a son. Bob's son is human, like Bob, but Bob's son is not Bob. For the rest of your post, notice how the Spirit is only mentioned as the "Spirit of God/the LORD." Are there any places that make it clear that the Spirit is separate from God the Father/Jesus Christ?

Masculinity/feminity (if that's even a word) is actually based on grammar/translation. In spanish and french, some words were masculine and some were feminine (unlike english, where all words are neuter). in french, the word for "door" (la porte; la is feminine and words that end in '-e' are usually feminine) is feminine. Does that make the door a female person? No. same applies here.

Here Gregory is grappling with a perennial issue in the history of Trinitarian thought, namely, the difficulty that the human mind encounters in reconciling the oneness and threeness of God. He thus resorts to an illustration from the created realm, the rainbow. When a rainbow is seen clearly in the sky, the various colors of the spectrum can be easily distinguished, but they pass so gradually into each other without any abrupt transition that it is impossible to say where one color begins and another ends. Similarly, the individual members of the Godhead can be distinguished in their operations and activities, but this should never be done in such a way as to destroy their unity in being. It is also noteworthy that Gregory—who did have definite philosophical inclinations, far more than most of the orthodox theologians of the fourth century—is quite prepared to say that in the final analysis the doctrine of the Trinity surpasses human comprehension. In the face of this mystery, logic and human reason can only go so far. It is only through faith that the believer can affirm what logic ultimately cannot: the threeness and the oneness of God."https://www.the-highway.com/trinity_Haykin.html But do you have any Scriptural evidence? Thank you for this though.

If the Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the Godhead, why is it we never see him physically speak? Why is it that, when the apostles were writing their epistles, they gave glory to "One God, the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ"? They didn't give glory to the Holy spirit. Here's a question; since Jesus was begotten of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't He call the Holy Spirit His father, if the Holy Spirit is a personal being of the Godhead? There have been cases in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit has been personified, but is there any evidencefor a Triune God in the Old Testament? Usually (if not always), New Testament doctrines can be found in the Old Testament as well. I do not doubt this. But, plurality doesn't mean 3. It could mean 2, or 5, or 100. Do you have any sources?

I've grown up believing in the Holy Trinity, as that's what I've always been taught. But, following 1 Thessalonians 5:21's "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" (NASB), after reading through some of the Bible and reading some theological essays online, I'm not really sure I can say I believe in the Trinity. There doesn't seem to be much support for the Trinity in what I've read so far. There seems to be more support for Binitarian beliefs than Trinitarian beliefs. Could you guys please provide biblical evidence for a Triune God?

I know that premarital sex is definitely a no-no. But - and I'm just going to get to the point, here - I have a boyfriend. We're both devout Christians. We're young (teens). We've been dating for over two years. And we've kissed. We've cuddled. We hold hands all the time. Is that bad? When he first kissed me, I thought nothing of it. When we first cuddled, I thought nothing of it. When he held my hand for the first time (the third day we were dating) I thought nothing of it. But, very recently, I got a small thought in the back of my head. What if this stuff is all against God's Law, too? I understand that these things can lead to sexual desire, which can lead to sexual immorality, and the Bible says to "flee from sexual immorality." I'm going to admit, although we haven't done the 's-word', we have kissed a couple times that could have lead to it... and I'm planning on putting a stop to that. No more. But what about "Just kissing" or "just cuddling" or even "just holding hands"? Are those against God's Law, too? If they are, well then I'll have a hard time breaking the news to my boyfriend and stopping, but I'll end up breaking it to him and quitting it anyways, due to conviction. Since I actually feel a bit of conviction about this now, I'm assuming that means it is wrong and we should stop, and God's trying to tell me that. but, I would still like to hear what you guys have to say about this. And, if it's not too much to ask, please pray for me as well. Because it's going to be hard, breaking it to my boyfriend, and even stopping myself. Thanks!

Jesus is God. So if you believe in God, it's not that much different to believe in Jesus. Just because you haven't seen Him is not a reason not to believe - if you've ever been on an airplane, chances are, you trusted the pilot to get you to your destination safely even though you've probably never even seen the pilot. Every time you sit down on a chair without checking all of its parts to make sure it will hold up, you trust in the strength of that chair to keep you up, even though you haven't checked the chair out. You trust that George Washington existed, even though you've never personally witnessed his existence, you've only ever read about him in a book (or maybe watched a few documentaries). Why should Jesus be any different? Jesus was simply the physical manifestation of an invisible God. I've been in the same boat as you before. I didn't know how to believe in something I could not see, until I started to think about the things above. But with prayer, God has lifted me out of that dark trench. Prayer is key to a Christian's life, along with faith and patience. Perhaps pray to God to heal your unbelief and reveal the truth to you. I'll be praying for you.

I know that we are supposed to give to the poor. I don't doubt that at all. But what if someone only pretends to be poor just to get money or other things, and you know it without a doubt? Are we still supposed to give to those people, or are we supposed to confront them and tell them we know they're lying, or both? I know that whatever we do, we're to do it in love. EDIT: For example, I know this is an extreme case and likely not to happen, but what if you see a person exit from a mansion wearing very fine clothing and looking well-kept, and then you witness them tearing up their clothes and making themselves look poor, then going up to people and begging them for money or clothing?

Don't go to the Lord to find wealth or an easy life. Go to the Lord to find love. God knows the most embarrassing thing you've ever done, the worst thought you've ever had, the most hateful act you've ever committed. God knows every single thing about you - and yet He still loves you more than anyone else in this world could. God doesn't promise us a good life on this earth, but He does promise us love and eternal life in paradise after this world passes away. If you come to know God, since He is love (1 John 4:8), you will come to know love. God will give you what you NEED, not always what you want. Sometimes the two are very different from each other. I guarantee that if you let God work in your life and surrender to God - which isn't an easy thing to do, but you CAN DO IT - you will see a big difference in your own attitude, for the better. If you've got all the money in the world yet you don't have love, you have nothing. If you have no money whatsoever but you have love, you have everything. I used to be a very hateful person. I used to give people dirty looks all the time, I disobeyed my parents, I cussed people out often, etc. but ever since I've turned to God, my life has taken a U-turn from the wrong direction to the right direction. If you turn to God, He will give you what you need - love. And you can make reparations from there. You can repair those broken relationships. You might even be able to get a good job if people see that you have a good attitude. And most of all, God will bless you. Just remember, blessings from God often turn out to look different than what we've expected. I'll definitely be praying for you! God bless ya.

You just have to know that God has a plan. We can choose whether we take the path that he has laid out for us, because Jesus gave us free will, but if you trust in God, he will take care of everything. There's a little saying that I absolutely love. I don't know who originally said it, but I really like it: "Want to hear God laugh? Tell him your plans." I like that saying. To me, that means that God already has his plans laid out for you, and he makes no mistakes. You may be tested and go through hardships here on Earth, but it's all part of God's plan and if you believe and trust in him, you will make it through. God will take care of you. He knows what's best for you and that's exactly what he'll give you. He will give you what you need.