Jeff2

Yet I will note that you did not give a verse that states this. At the Judgment, we see: "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Romans 2:5-7. We know that every person will be judged according to their deeds, a.k.a. "Works." Those that will seek glory and honor and immortality by continuance in well doing , A.K.A. "Works"... eternal life. Glory, honor and peace are promised to "every man that worketh good." Works! "We shall all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in the body," 2 Cor. 5:10. What are the "things done in the body"? Works! And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 1 Peter 1:17 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev. 20:12 Perhaps I missed the passage that said that we would all be judged according to our faith; or for what we believed. One thing is clear, we will all be judged by our works.

Jesus died for sin, not works. You need to decide when, not two different events. Either we were justified when we believed as a condition, or we were saved at the Cross and it is all of fate. It can't be both. So, what are you saying... At the Judgment we are going to be judged by what we believed?

You have not proved otherwise! Besides, I certainly hope they are, for without works no one will justified at the Judgment!

What we do, whether in faith or not, are "works." I do not disagree with Roman 10:9, but the fact remains, if there is something we must do, it is "works." Works are not a dirty word. They are deemed necessary according to Scripture. The broad brush that people paint is that they fail to differentiate works done for merit, and works that are the fruit of faith; which no man is saved without.

Welcome to the Biblical World of works!

It's no different than any other work that Christ works through a believer. They are still works indeed.

Because if the conditional passages are true, their house of theological cards come crashing down. They may have to contend with something that convicts them. Secondly, many have confused Eternal Security with the Gospel. By falsely equating it to the Gospel, it strokes their ego that to disagree with them, renders one to be lost. They cannot defend the false doctrine they teach, so the next easiest thing is to try to attack the person instead of making a rational defense of what they believe. It's easier to raise dust than to answer an argument!

Writing to Christians, Jude says, "Keep yourselves in the love of God." Jude 21 I guess that we can rip Jude out of our Bibles now because he does not agree with our theory.

How is depending on the finished work of the cross earning salvation. It's already finished. Please explain. You add the works of believing and confessing with your mouth. So, since it is a "finished salvation" as you argue, why even worry about anything, for you are saved by fate, not by grace. If one has to believe to be saved, it is not finished. You say that this is Legalism.

Still earning your way to salvation? Even more works! Where will it end? Good luck with your own standard of Legalism!

I would suggest that Scripture does address this quite clearly. The one difficulty comes in when we convolute the "works of the Law" and the "fruit of a saving faith." James tells us that faith without works is dead. James 2: "Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone." A dead faith is not a saving faith. But is James speaking of the works of the Law, or works as the fruit of a genuine faith? I see no reason to believe anything but the later. Paul tells us (as is often repeated,) "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." People say Amen! it is clear that works that accompany salvation does not have any merit! Yet, most people tear away at the context and never follow on with what Paul says in verse 10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." We are His workmanship; Christ working in and through us to good works. These things God has "ordained" that we should "walk" (actively moving in). Jesus asserts the same in John 15:4-6, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: For without me ye can do nothing." I would say that Scripture says that God's ordained will is that a Christian will bear fruit. In fact, Jesus says that good fruit is an inevitable result of abiding in the Vine. James summarizes this by telling us that a fruitless faith is not a saving faith. Jesus, Paul and James are essentially saying the same thing, but from differing perspectives. If someone's claim to being saved has not resulted in a change (regeneration) that results in a life of good fruit, I would be skeptical of their claims. Maturity takes time. I am not sure whether I would assert that one had to bear fruit unto maturity to be saved, but would say that fruit will always accompany salvation.

Do you? And what theological tower do you wish to build upon a theory? The Bible says, only "past" sins are forgiven at salvation. Romans 3:25, "[Jesus Christ] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God." 2 Peter 1:8-9, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, AND HAS FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS." Present sins are stated in Scripture as being conditioned upon bringing them to God for forgiveness. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things I write unto you that, ye sin not. [Greek, singular, not sin one time]. And IF any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." If they were already dealt with, we would not need an Advocate with the Father. 1 Jn. 1:9 agrees, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." God has made a provision for sins; and conditions on how they are to be dealt with if they occur.

If you believe that what the bible teaches is "bad teaching," that is something you need to reconcile with God and His Word. Then why could you not find it in Scripture without reading it into Scripture? You did so in every passage you have given as proof so far. And NONE OF THEM teach Eternal Security. And all of your sophistry around this passage ignores the context. We are told plainly that Israel was broken off because of UNBELIEF! Romans 11:19-24, "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou (Writing to Christians) STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them WHICH FELL, SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE (condition) in His goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." We too must not become high-minded or we are in danger of being cut off too! If we stand by faith, and continue in His goodness, we have no fear of being cut off. God has not changed His mind about Israel and their conditional salvation anymore than He has ours as Christians! His work is not in question. But our work cannot be ignored. God no more repents for you than He believes for you. God set the conditions, they are as true as His promises.

The TRUTH is "tortured logic"? You choose to ignore BIBLICAL FACT and cling to your failed doctrine. It is not overthinking that is the problem in exegesis, but the insertion of some foreign presupposition not found in the Bible that is imposed on Scripture, and seeking oversimplification as a sound hermeneutic to avoid critical thinking. "Eternal Life" is only presently given on the condition of present tense hearing and believing. Jesus said so! A "logical fallacy" is to insert a doctrine that is not in the passage, and assume that the passage proves it! That is what you have done with inserting an unbiblical doctrine of Eternal Security into them. There never was or ever can be" a born Securist. "You reader, or any other truly born again Christian, cannot read Eternal Security verses and get Eternal Security "out of " them. The only way that Eternal Security can be attached to these verses is to "read it into" them. This proves that Eternal Security is an extra-Biblical, external philosophy, seeking Biblical sanction. People are "educated into" Eternal Security, just as truly as atheists are "educated into" atheism. - Henry Schilling

And who but the DEVIL would want "Christians" to live in a false carnal security as he promised Eve in the Garden?

Allow me to "Read Harder." John 10:27-29 ESV My sheep hear (present tense) my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (present tense). I give them (present tense, conditioned upon present tense hearing and following) eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. There is no question that these are words of assurance of salvation. The question is, “who” is this promise given to? The Sheep! So, according to Christ, what constitutes someone being a “Sheep”? “My sheep hear (present tense) my voice, and I know them, and they follow me (present tense).” Anyone not presently hearing (listening to Jesus) and presently following Him, are not Sheep! I'm not going to argue that Jesus is wrong about this! John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. This statement is nothing more than a promise that God will not turn anyone away. It is the promise that all are welcome to come to Christ. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears (present tense) my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Who does not come into judgment, and has passed from death to life? Only those that presently are hearing and believing. For Eternal Security to be true, one has to prove from Scripture that those that are not presently hearing and believing are promised that they will not come into judgment, and have passed from death to life. John 10:28 I give them (present tense) eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Any passage without a context is a pretext. Who is Jesus (present tense) giving eternal life? Flying Monkeys from the Wizard of Oz? No! There is a context. Only the Sheep are given this promise! And who does Jesus say are the Sheep? Only those that are present tense hearing and present tense following Him. Do I need to read harder? I find it quite ironic that the "proofs" for Eternal Security are the very proofs the Bible understands to mean that Eternal Security is false!

The Recipe for BAT Salad in case you get a bonus in your package! http://www.paleoplan.com/2013/08-19/bat-salad-bacon-arugula-and-tomato/

And yet, say nothing of Eternal Security. Confidence in a doctrine and being dogmatic about it does not prove the doctrine. I have no doubts that we are secure in Christ and that life is in the Son, yet a doctrine of Eternal Security is foreign to the Scriptures.

It is a sad state of affairs within the Church when the best argument for a doctrinal assumption is an appeal to one out of context passage that does not prove the point, and suggesting that one's salvation rests upon faith in blind dogmatism and ad hominem fear mongering. Salvation according to the Gospel is in Christ, not some doctrine of assurance. Eternal Security is nowhere in the Bible. But I will concede your argument that it is nowhere questioned in Scripture... and neither is the Easter Bunny! I wonder why?

The Bible always uses the present tense of "believing" as a condition of final and future salvation. As in the example you use here, the Bible does have several examples of the aorist tense of "believe" and "saved" when it concerns an individuals stepping from death into life. We would call this "conversion," or being "born-again." This experience is accurately shown as a decisive act by the aorist tense. But stepping into salvation is not speaking of future or final salvation. That is not the context in these passages. Where the Bible speaks of a believers future and final salvation, we see a consistency of the Scriptural usage of the present tense which establishes that one must continue in this belief to have a present tense salvation. Since this does not speak of final salvation, the aorist tense has no bearing on the present tense usage as a condition in other passages, as in Jn. 3:16.

I would never argue contrary to the Gospel of Salvation where this passage states the condition of present tense believing in order to have everlasting life.

Separate us from the love of God, not salvation. Paul is dealing in context with persecution, he is saying that all these things (which are all outside of the believer themselves) external worldly and spiritual influences, do not indicate that they are not in the love of God. Christians were being crucified, burned at the stake, fed to the Lions. The World would say "Where is your God now"? Paul is saying that nothing in this world affecting them is an indication that God does not love them. As Jude 21 would exhort Christians... "keep yourselves in the love of God"

And true to form, and typical of your ilk, and as i stated previously.... once a person is infected with Satanic "Grace-Hate", they will run straight to the Old Testament to try to undo and then redo New Testament Redemption. Hopefully anyone looking at my comments all over this Forum, one could easily ascertain that this is the sole instance where I appealed to Genesis, or any of the Old Testament. But without the foundation of Genesis, there is no reference point for most of the New Testament. I would reply as Paul would... "Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? " Galatians 4:16.

The Antinomian Creed By John Fletcher Upon their doctrinal systems they raise a tower of presumption, whence they bid defiance both to the law and Gospel of Jesus. His law says, "Love God with all thy heart, and thy neighbour as thyself, that thou mayest live" in glory. "If thou wilt enter into the life" (of glory,) "keep the commandments." But this raises their pity, instead of commanding their respect, and exciting their diligence. "Moses is buried," they say; "we have nothing to do with the law! We are not under the law to Christ! Jesus is not a Lawgiver to control, but a redeemer to save us." The Gospel cries to them," Repent and believe!" (Mark 1:15,) and just as if God was to be the penitent, believing sinner, they carelessly reply, "The Lord must do all; repentance and faith are His works, and they will be done in the day of His power; and so without resistance they decently follow the stream of worldly vanities and fleshly lusts. St. Paul cries, "If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die." (Rom. 1:13,) "We know better," answer they "there are neither ifs nor conditions in all the Gospel." He adds, "This one thing I do, leaving the things that are behind, I press toward the mark for the prize of my high calling in Christ Jesus-the crown of life. Be ye followers of me. Run also the race that is set before you." "What! say they, "would you have us run and work for life? Will you always harp upon that legal string, Do! do! instead of telling us that we have nothing to do, but to believe that all is done?" St. James cries, "Show your faith by your works; faith without works is dead already, (James 2:26,) much more that which is accompanied by bad works." "What!" say they, "do you think the lamp of faith can be put out as a candle can be extinguished, by not being suffered to shine? We orthodox hold just the contrary: we maintain both that faith can never die, and that living faith is consistent not only with the omission of good works, but with the commission of the most horrid crimes." St. Peter bids them "give all diligence to make their election sure, by adding to their faith virtue," etc. (2 Pet. 1:10,) "Legal stuff!" say they, "The covenant is well ordered in all things sure: neither will our virtue save us, nor our sins damn us." St. John comes next, and declares, "He that sinneth is of the devil." (1 Jn. 3:8,) "What! say they, "do you think to make us converts to Arminianism, by thus insinuating that a man can be a child of God today, and a child of the devil tomorrow?" St. Jude advances last, and charges them to, "keep themselves in the love of God;" (Jude 21,) and they supinely reply, "We can do nothing." Besides, "We are as easy and as safe without a frame as with one." With the seven-fold shield of the Antinomian faith they could fight the twelve apostles round, and come off, in their own imagination, more than conquerors. http://biblical-theology.net/antinomian_creed.htm

anyone who suggest works as necessary for salvation are doing that very thing -basing salvation in themselves.. Poor Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude!