OldCoot

Not sure if this has made it on another thread but I thought it would be apropos to stick it here for viewing.  The recent Open Doors t0p 50 counties for Christian persecution.  Make the list a part of your daily prayer life and remember the brothers and sisters who are suffering, that their lives will be a testimony of the Lord.    Pray that those who come against the believers, that their eyes will be opened and they will also come to faith in Yeshua / Jesus.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/

On 1/16/2020 at 3:42 PM, Behold said:

There is the Blood of Jesus that is not found in the Old Testament, that is a BIG Difference.

There is the CROSS of CHRIST that is not found in the OLD TESTAMENT, (TORAH)< that is a Big Difference.

There is the New Covenant that is the New Testament, written in the Blood of Jesus that replaces the 1st Covenant, found in the OT =  that God said He "found fault with"< that is the Torah. (Law)

God didn't find a fault with the New Testament, or New Covenant, and that is another BIG Difference between the Torah and the New Testament.

Jesus is the Mediator of a New Testament and a NEW Covenant, and that is not what you find in the OLD TESTAMENT and OLD COVENANT.   That is another big difference.

How many more differences do you need?

"The LAW, came by MOSES....that is the OLD TESTAMENT, ...while........GRACE AND TRUTH Came BY JESUS Christ"........that is the NEW Testament.

The OLD and the NEW Testament are completely different., and that you  don't realize this, is unfortunate.

 

Have you actually read the Tanakh?   Stuff like Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, etc.   Even what Yeshua wrote in the dirt in John 8 was prophesied in Jeremiah 17.    And grace has always been a part of scripture from the time that the Lord made coverings for Adam and Eve, thru King David, on into the NT.    There never has been any difference.

And the Cross is not found in the Torah?  If you take the sizes of the various tribes, and when they camped in the wilderness they were either on the North, South, East, or West side.  There boundary could not extend beyond the width of the side they were camped on.  If you were to see the layout from a high vantage point like a mountain, you would see the cross laid out below.   

Even the Passover lamb.  It was roasted in an upright position supported by a sticks in the shape of a cross.    The Blood was placed on the door mantle and sides in Eqypt as prescribed by the Lord so the death angel would pass over.   That blood on the mantle, the sides, and the bowl of blood at the threshold of the door is the shape of a cross.   

Now.... go and study.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, there's a REASON for Luke to use the word "ekkleesia" for the congregation of Israel at Mount Sinai!

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Future tense, yet to happen, not an extension or continuation.  Israel as a congregation or ekklesia (called out assembly) is not the Church.  They are distinct entities.   

ἐκκλησία
STRONG’S NUMBER: g1577
Dictionary Definition g1577. ἐκκλησία ekklēsia; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): — assembly, church.
AV (118) - church 115, assembly 3;
a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating, the assembly of the Israelites, any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously, in a Christian sense an assembly of Christians gathered...

3 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

John Darby believed that Daniel’s "people" were only the Jews.  Daniel may have assumed the same, upon hearing the prophecy.  But Daniel did not anticipate that Messiah would one day command the inclusion of all Gentile believers.  In light of that command, I believe the prophecy includes all of Israel - which includes those “grafted in” through the “circumcision of Christ” - NOT simply DNA descendants of Jacob.  

        KEEP IN MIND: According to Darby, the 70 weeks applied only to Jews.  

Then explain how Israel (both houses) are responsible for Yeshua returning to His place with the Father until Israel acknowledges its offense of rejecting Him?   And He states clearly that He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and petition for His return.   Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39 / Luke 13:34-35.

When did the Church, being Israel as some suppose, reject the Messiah and cause Him to return to His place, especially since He returned to His place before the church was born in Acts 2?   And unlike some seem to think, that the "congregation" mentioned in the OT regarding Israel is the same as the "church" in the NT, Yeshua talks in future tense here....

Matthew 16:18 (NKJV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

The tense is a future building of the unique entity called the "church" or "body of Messiah".  Thereby delineating Israel and the Church as unique entities.  Israel as a corporate body must still acknowledge its offense of rejecting Him the first time and turn to Him and petition for His return as the condition of His return.  The church has nothing to do with it.  It rests solely on Israel.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

First, there are no "dispensations"; a person has ALWAYS been justified by God through His grace, by the blood of a sacrifice, and through faith no matter when that person lived.

True enough, salvation has always been by grace.  But there has been dispensations that reveal more of the Lord, His plan, His purposes, and His standards.    

The Adamic Covenant was very limited in requirements and revealing of the purpose of the Lord.   Only after the Covenant was broken by Adam's fall did the Lord reveal a Messiah would come from the seed of the woman.

The Noahide Covenant, extended legal requirements were outlined, many of which coincide with much of the 10 Commandments.  It was made with all mankind in view from Noah onward.  Legal requirements regarding murder, no eating of blood,  all living things were fit for food, etc.

The Abrahamic Covenant, the requirement of circumcision was made for Abraham and all his descendants.  That thru Abraham and his descendants, the earth would be blessed, thus revealing more of the purpose and plan of God.  Made only  with Abraham, confirmed to Isaac and Jacob later.  

The Mosaic Covenant, setting the legal and ceremonial standard for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, establishing them as a unique nation set apart from other nations and be a witness to the nations of the Lord.

The Davidic Covenant, further amplifying the purpose and plan of God by stating that a descendent of David would rule on David's throne or authority forever.  Affirmed again by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32.

Each one a dispensation or revealing more of God and His purpose.  This from Merriam-Webster.....

7 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

To some, "apostasia" might give the impression that it refers to leaving say, an organization, a church.  But "apostasia" means "to depart from truth"!

No it does not.

In both noun (apostasia) and verb (aphistemi) form, what the word implies is based on the context it is used.  Just like in English.

It started raining, so Joe ran home.  (verb)

While at the store, I ran into a neighbor.  (verb)

Same word, both in verb form, but entirely different meanings.

I saw Joe yesterday and he said he went on a run. (noun)

My neighbor said he had started his political campaign run.  (noun)

Same word, noun form, but different meanings.

Luke 2:37  and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart (aphistemi) from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. (a physical departure is in view)

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart (aphistemi) from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (a spiritual departure is in view).

The verb form can mean a spatial departure or a spiritual departure depending on the context.  Likewise, the noun form can mean a spiritual departure or a spatial departure depending on the context.

Acts 21:21  but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.  (a distancing from the Torah of Moses)

2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing (apostasia) first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. (no object in the verse to what is being departed from)

There is nothing in this passage to say what is being departed from as in Acts 21:21.  And whether it is the verb form (aphistemi) or the noun form (apostasia), the context determines what the word means, just like the English examples above.  When the context is not mentioned in the verse the word is used, as in the verse above, then it must be determined from the surrounding verses.  

2 Thessalonians 2:1  1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8  He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The context of the entire passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is the removal or departure.... the departure that also means the Holy Spirit who restrains is taken out of the way.  Since the believers are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit, for Him to be taken out of the way  by extension means the redeemed who He indwells and seals are also taken out of the way.  Thus the removal of the redeemed.

10 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

"Orwellian mindset" ?  Didn't get that. 

I thought "covenant Theology" IS apropos, when talking Bible.  

Read "1984" by George Orwell.  One of the key aspects was how words would be twisted to mean something other than what they originally meant.  "gay" is a good example.  To make "dispensation" some sort of negative or pejorative is doing the same thing.  I won't fall for the game, and I feel no compelling need to use a different word just because some might be offended in some way with the word "dispensation".

37 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Why use the word "dispensations" instead of "covenants"? 

I guess the better question would be, why should one kowtow to the Orwellian mindset that has turned a legitimate word into a perjorative?   The dictionary and traditional usage of dispensation is apropos.  

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

"a departing"

646 avpostasi,a apostasia {ap-os-tas-ee'-ah}
Meaning:  1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (KJV)

868 avfi,sthmi aphistemi {af-is'-tay-mee}
Meaning:  1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove 1a) to excite to revolt 2) to stand off, to stand aloof 2a) to go away, to depart from anyone 2b) to desert, withdraw from one 2c) to fall away, become faithless 2d) to shun, flee from 2e) to cease to vex one 2f) to withdraw one's self from, to fall away 2g) to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

If one "depart from the faith" because he is seduced by demons, does that sound like apostasy or defection from faith? 

 

The "departing" of 2Thess 2:3 is not departing from this earth.  It is departing from faith.  

 

You realize that your taking of a Strong's reference is but one man's interpretation of the word?   How is it that Jerome, `1400 years earlier used "discessio" to translate apostasia?  Did the man who grew up and was immersed in the Greek language know less than a man in the 1800's not culturally immersed in the Greek language?  

ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis

And discessio has the connotation of a physical distancing as opposed to a spiritual distancing.

And how is it that every English translation prior to the KJV also determined that apostasia means departure as did Jerome?   The Wycliff Bible (1384), the Tyndale Bible (1526), the Coverdale Bible (1535), the Cranmer Bible (1539), the Beeches Bible (1576), the Geneva Bible (1577, 1599, 1608).

As did Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961) who served as chair of New Testament Greek for several decades at Moody Bible Institute.  As does Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary.  As does Dr. Ken Johnson, a recognized scholar specializing in ancient and early church documents.

The root is apo, which has a meaning of distance.  Even James Strong got that right.  As to why he didn't maintain the standard, who knows.  

And there have been many "falling aways" of the last 2000 years.  Ever read about the "dark / middle ages"?  To make a "falling away" a unique marker that precedes the revealing of the man of sin is not justified.  Paul uses the definite article in the passage to denote a singular, unique event that must precede the man of sin being revealed.  And Paul ties it to the "our gathering unto the Lord" in the first verse.  To state that Paul started the passage topic about our gathering to the Lord and then switches tense to our departing from the Lord to bolster his case violates even basic grade school grammar, especially since Paul is refuting a false letter that had been wrongfully distributed claiming to be from him.  Hardly the style of one of the most learned individuals of his day who wrote the definitive outline of Christian systematic theology.

But you are free to disagree.  

I would contend that a falling away is not in view.  I am not convinced a "falling away" as many understand it will be a major characteristic of the end period. What we see going on is not a "falling away", but a total rejection of the Gospel by many, especially in the western world.  I can see a "falling away" of those who have accepted a false gospel.   I see no real evidence that a falling away from the true Gospel is what is happening or will happen.  I see true believers every day holding fast to what they have placed their trust in, the Messiah.  In fact, look at many areas where Christians are being persecuted.... China, Sudan, N. Korea, et al... and one sees a very vibrant group of believers that are holding fast under extreme pressure..  and growing exponentially.   It is said that the Chinese believers will be the largest group of Christians in the next few years at the rate they are going.   Even in Iran as we discuss this, people are starting to accept the Gospel in great numbers.   A place where one will lose their head if caught.   Now how could that be perceived as a "falling away"?   

I think many view such passages thru a western lens and see the decline of Christianity in the west as a "falling away".  it is not a falling away but an outright rejection.  One cannot fall away from something they have not accepted.  The West is not departing from the faith, the West is declining to accept it.

37 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( KJV)

What "day" is "that day" ?  Just back up one verse.

 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (NAS)

"that day" is "the day of the LORD". 

Well, according to every English translation of the the passage prior to the KJV, as well as the Latin Vulgate.....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

In the Latin Vulgate, the word discessio is used, which simply means departure.  Many well known Greek scholars have shown that apostasia in the Greek, by itself, only means a departure.  Only when combined with what is being departed from the in the text is there cause to mean something else.  Like is Acts 21:21 where the word is used and applied to mean departing from Torah, or Moses.  Aphistemi is the verb form of the noun Apostasia, and in the 15 times it is used in the NT, 12 times it refers to a physical, spatial departure, not a spiritual departure.  

And in the same context a few verses later,

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

In the NKJV, same thing....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

So the context is something is being removed or departed before the man of sin can be revealed.   The context of the passage was laid out early on....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Evidently a forged letter claiming to be from Paul had scared these folks into thinking the day of the Lord was already upon them.  Paul had to remind them that the departure would come first, then the man of sin would be revealed.  When taken in total, Chapter 2 is easing their mind that they were not in the Day of the Lord since they were still here!

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Now we all love this one. We sure want the promises. But then we seem to distance ourselves when it comes to any sort of curse or trouble. Curses and trouble are only for the Jewish nation after all not for the western idea of the 'church'. The 'church' is separate, blessed, perfect in all their ways, they have nothing to do with the Jews. According to Paul the only criteria is to be in Christ and then we are counted as the Seed of Abraham.

That would be correct except for the following...

Romans 8:1 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

While individual chastisement by the Father is shown to be a part of the Christian experience when one gets out of line, there is no corporate chastisement by the Father shown in scripture that will befall the unique Body of Messiah that started in Acts 2, unlike corporate Israel had chastisement and punishment that fell on even those who were faithful.   Both corporate Israel and gentiles have the promise of group focused chastisement from the Lord.  Not the unique Body of Messiah.

Tribulation is general is a part of the Christian experience to one degree or another.  But the coming tribulation as a part of driving unbelieving Israel to the wall to get them to recognize their Messiah and accept Him is not.  Again, it is a matter of ecclesiology more than eschatology along with an understanding of what the 70th week and GT period are all about and who is the primary focus.  Even Paul delineates that there are 3 distinct groups now... Israel, Gentiles, and the Church.  The 70th week of Daniel 9 pertaining to his people leaves only Israel and gentiles with Israel the primary focus since it will be incumbent on them to recognize their corporate rejection of Messiah and petition for His return as per the prophet Hosea.

Being the seed of Abraham spiritually does not make us the seed of Abraham physically.  Else all males that are Christian would be required to be circumcised which is a sign of the still in force unconditional Abrahamic Covenant (similarly, while there is no male or female in Messiah, there is a physical distinction that remains).   Yet the Jerusalem Council, Peter, Paul all agree that circumcision was not required of gentiles coming to faith in the Messiah. Acts 15.   And James also had Paul take an offering to the temple for the Nazarite Vow to prove that he did not teach Hebrews living in the diaspora to forsake the requirements of being a physical seed of Abraham.  Acts 21

And the curses of Leviticus 26 were to national Israel as part of the Mosaic Covenant which was made with them.  Paul, James, and Peter, yet again are very clear that gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua are not part of the Mosaic Covenant and uniquely specified that they are still under the requirements of the Noahide Covenant. Acts 15.   

So while gentile believers are grafted in the the tree fed by the root of the Patriarch's faith, they are not the tree. And Paul is very clear about that. Romans 11.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Dispensationalism and replacement theology have no scriptural support.

Disagree on first, agree on second.   Dispensation as you might understand the concept may not be in scripture, but that doesn't negate that the idea is in scripture.

Ephesians 1:10 (NKJV) that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Ephesians 3:2 (NKJV) if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

The covenants given throughout the OT exhibit dispensation.  The Adamic Covenant, the laws were very limited in scope and the revealing of God was minimal.  the Noahide Covenant, more laws were brought in as requirements and there was more revealing of the nature of God.   With the Abrahamic Covenant, even more reveling of the nature and plan of God was brought out.  With the Davidic Covenant, yet again, more of the nature and plan of God was revealed.  Each is a dispensation. 

Those are just examples and not a conclusive list by far.

So dispensation is a scriptural concept.  Even if someone refuses to believe it, which probably has more to do with misunderstanding the concept at best.

9 hours ago, Sonshine said:

I don't believe Isaiah 26:20 is referencing the kind of "mansions" as described in John 14:3.  Let's look at Isaiah 26:20:

Isaiah 26:20:  "Come My People, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee:  hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast."  

God is telling His people to go into their inner chambers and shut their doors and hide from the antichrist.  Actually, we Christians will be hiding in Christ who is our Protector.  Amen?

Except context is everything.

Isaiah 26 starts out tying itself to Revelation 4.  Both Hebrew and Greek words can mean both door and gate.....

Isaiah 26:2 (NKJV) Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.

Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

And Peter calls us a holy or righteous nation which ties into above, and even ties us into Revelation 5 by calling us a royal priesthood....

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And the kings and priest redeemed from all the nations are present before the Lord opens the first seal....

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) "You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."

I showed in an earlier post how Isaiah 26:17 ties itself into Jeremiah 30:6-7 regarding the birth pains and Time of Jacob's Trouble, which Yeshua also references in Matthew 24.

But getting to Isaiah 26:19-21, it ties into, Zephaniah 2, 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And all that ties nicely into John 14...

John 14:2-3 (NKJV Strong's) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 

As a side note, a reasonable case can be made from 2 Thessalonians 2 that the timing of this removal is before the antichrist/son of perdition/man of sin is revealed.  Pinning down the removal definitively before the 70th week starts and the seals are broken.

And all the above follows the requirement of the Torah that a matter can only be established on the testimony of at least two witnesses.  And the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us how that is to be applied.....

Acts 17:11 (NKJV) These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Paul's teaching would make up a significant portion of the NT.  All the Bereans had for a canon of scripture at that time was the OT.  So the two witnesses are the OT and the NT.  Not one of them alone even with multiple references from one.  There has to be corroborated evidence from both OT and NT.  And the above references I made pass that test.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, the historicity of the account in Matthew 27 was his point in the first place! These early "fathers" ("call no man on earth your 'father'")

I never called them "fathers".  Norm Geisler might have, but I called them "early church writers".

5 hours ago, Alive said:

Isn’t the Lord ruling with a rod of iron for the 1000 years?

Indeed.  As are we along side Him....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'—
as I also have received from My Father;

7 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe it very possible there may be 24 "courses" of elders.   King David divided "the priesthood" into 24 courses, with each course serving at the Temple for 2 weeks at a time, plus all the priests served during the Feasts.

Ding, Ding, Ding!   We have a winner!

Peter said that we are a royal priesthood.  That would be kings a priests of Revelation 5.

1 hour ago, Sonshine said:

The LORD’s heaven will be here on earth (the new Jerusalem descending out of heaven) on Mt. Zion.

But that is after the 1000  years and the new earth and new heaven of Revelation 21.  That does not comport with the Isaiah 26 and John 14, which specifically states the mansions/rooms/chambers/abodes are in the Father's house.  

For any matter to be established according to Torah and as exampled by the Bereans in Acts 17, the testimony of both the OT and NT must be in uniformity.  You will have to provide ample evidence from both the NT and OT that the mansions/rooms/abodes/ etc refer only to the New Jerusalem. 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

But you seem to have no problem equating the 70th week with birth pangs, great tribulation, and wrath as if they are all the same,

Nope. I equate the birth pains as either preceding or the beginning of the 70th week / tribulation period. 

The scripture is pretty clear on what constitutes the birth pains.  And as weather phenomena, seismic activity, and the numbers of active wars across the planet seem to be increasing, it would seem that the birth pains are pretty much in view.  Also, Daniel lays out that the 70th week, like the previous 69, has its focus on his people, the Hebrews.   Matthew 24, likewise, has its focus on the land of Israel, hence the Hebrews.  Likewise, Jeremiah 30 has its focus as Jacob (Israel), the Hebrews.  So applying these passages world wide, and even to the redeemed, is not warranted.   Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacob's Trouble, not the time of the Church's Trouble.   

Yes, I do equate the entire period of the tribulation / 70th week as the time of the wrath.   For one, the scroll which Yeshua is handed is written on both sides.  That is typical of a deed in the 1st century.  He is the only one found worthy to lay claim to the earth, and opening those seals is His taking back the claim to the earth.   When He was "tempted" by Satan, one of those was the offer of giving all the nations to Him if He would worship Satan.  Well, one cannot offer what one does not have, and Yeshua never disputed Satan's claim to owning the title deed to the earth.   The title deed was lost by Adam and Satan now owns the earth.  None of what happens on the earth as described in those seals can happen until those seals are opened, and they are opened by Him. Ergo, all the events are at and under His control.  He is the first cause.  So they all fall under what could be called "wrath".  And it is the final realization of that fact that these events are part of that, which leads those on the earth to proclaim that the wrath of the Lamb has come.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He didn't put "mansions for us in heaven"; He put them in the New Jerusalem! And, after the Millennium, the New Jerusalem COMES HERE! See how it works?

I don't.  Since Yeshua seems to make it pretty clear that the mansions/chambers/rooms etc are being prepared at the Father's house....

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

And Isaiah 26, which prefaces itself as at the beginning of the birth pains as mentioned by Jeremiah...

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Isaiah 26:17 (NKJV) As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.

And it is the same context that Isaiah says the righteous are hidden, in accordance with Zephaniah....

Zephaniah 2:3 (NKJV) Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

So no, I don't concur with your assessment that these mansions/chambers/rooms etc are part of the New Jerusalem after the Millenium.  One would have to present a lot of sciptural support for that to outweigh the above references.

Well, I suppose one could argue that these mansions/chambers/rooms could be the New Jerusalem as it sits in Heaven, but not as you assert after it has come to the earth.  Especially since the saints who are there return with the Lord when He comes to establish the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

Jude 1:14-15 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

And that judgment mentioned is the judgement of both Israel (Ezekiel 20:37-38) and the nations (Joel 3:2, Matthew 25:31-46) at the end of the Tribulation Period, at the point where the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom starts.

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, JoeMo, and welcome!

You're mentioning the same one that OldCoot says is the first in Matthew 27. However, only Yeshua` was the One who was resurrected at that time as a NEW body as described in
1 Corinthians 15:35-49. The others resurrected at His DEATH (not His Resurrection) were resurrected as people who would have to die again later.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 gives us Paul's understanding of the order of general resurrections:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and [is] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(1 or "0") Christ the firstfruits;
(2 or "1") afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (3 or "2") Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

(But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Christ, the Son), that God may be all in all.

The Greek of verse 20 is ...

Pros Korinthious A 15:20 

20 Nuni de Christos egeergetai ek nekroon, aparchee toon kekoimeemenoon.

20 Nuni = 20 now
de = But
Christos = [the]-Anointed-One, [the]-Messiah
egeergetai = has-been-raised
ek = from
nekroon, = [the]-dead-[ones], (plural adjective)
aparchee = [the]-firstfruit (singular noun)
toon = of-the (plural article)
kekoimeemenoon. = ones-having-fallen-asleep. (plural)

This last word is a verbal that is treated as a noun. It's a "perfect participle middle or passive" verb treated as noun that is a "genitive masculine plural." We'd call it a "gerund," as we would use the word "fishing" in the sentence "My favorite sport is fishing."

So the only words that are plural are nekroon, toon, and kekoimeemenoon (where "ee" is eta, and "oo" is omega). The only true verb (egeergetai) is third-person singular, and "aparchee," "firstfruit," is a singular noun.

The "Christ" or Messiah Yeshua` was the ONLY ONE who was in the first (or "zero-eth") resurrection!

Verse 24 is talking about the Resurrection found in Revelation 20, which happens after the Thousand-Year ("Millennial") Kingdom, when He shall be "putting all enemies under His feet," "putting down all rule and all authority and power." Then, He shall deliver up that "kingdom to God, even the Father," and "also Himself be subject unto him, ... that God may be all in all."

One must look closely at Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (Aramaic or "Syriatic" Hebrew transliterated into Greek and English)

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Greek translated to English)

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" ("Eliyahuw," often abbreviated to "Eliy")

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God."

Let's look at the Greek of verses 51 through 53:

Kata Maththaion 27:51-53

51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap' anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan, 52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegertheesan, 53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

51 Kai = 51 And
idou = behold; look!
to = the
katapetasma = veil
tou = of-the
naou = Temple
eschisthee = was-torn
ap' = away-from
anoothen = [the]-top
heoos = until; as-much-as
katoo = [the]-bottom
eis = into
duo, = two,
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth; ground
eseisthee, = was-shaken
kai = and
hai = the
petrai = rocks
eschistheesan, = were-split,
52 kai = 52 and
ta = the
mneemeia = memorials; tombs
aneoochtheesan = were-opened
kai = and
polla = many
soomata = bodies
toon = of-the
kekoimeemenoon = ones-having-fallen-asleep
hagioon = holy
eegertheesan, = were-raised,
53 kai = and
exelthontes = having-gone-forth
ek = out
toon = of-the
mneemeioon = memorials; tombs
meta = after
teen = the
egersin = resurrection
autou = of-Him; His
eiseelthon = they-entered
eis = into
teen = the
hagian = holy
polin = city
kai = and
enefanistheesan = they-appeared
pollois. = to-many.

So, these that arose at that time, were brought back to life AT HIS DEATH! The tombs were opened, but they didn't leave them until the Messiah arose, and THEN they went into the city, Jerusalem. Their resurrections were still resurrections like those of Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, and the widow's son! They would have to die again! They were NOT resurrected as our Lord was! They had time to help the believers after Yeshua` ascended ALONE to the sky! (See Acts 1:9-11.)

Also, the "two men" who "stood by them in white apparel" (Acts 1:10) are never said to be "angels." These may have been two of the ones who were resurrected, but that's conjecture.

Ephesian 4:8 is a QUOTATION from Psalm 68:18!

Psalm 68:7-19 (KJV)

7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:

8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill (Mount Moriah in Zion) which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

This "captivity led captive" were the children of Israel, those whom were led from Egypt!

Nice work, but I will keep mine simpler.

Matthew 27:53 (NKJV) and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

And many early church writers who were far closer to the event that we are, some who knew the Apostles and were in a better position to get first hand testimony of what really happened, seem to think that these saints of Matthew 27 were resurrected in the same manner as those in the future will be resurrected... as free from death again, immortal.   It comports with the pattern established with Leviticus 23 harvest.

Dr. Norman Geisler did a substantive treatise on the subject and outlined many of the early writers comments on this.

http://normangeisler.com/the-early-fathers-and-the-resurrection-of-the-saints-in-matthew-27/

So while it may be fun to break down the words and try to imply something from a subjective meaning of each word, there is no indication from the text that these resurrected "saints" were to die again as in the case of Lazarus or Jairus' daughter.  So all we can do is rely on what the early writers had to say on the issue since they were far closer to the event than we are.  To assume different one has no evidential support.

That these resurrected saints went into the city and presented themselves to others as confirmation, it is more likely that they were saints who had died in the recent years and would be known to those that saw them.  So applying the text of Acts 2:29 in implying that none of the OT saints were resurrected to eternal life has little actual support. 

And we must also look at  the account of when Yeshua arose.  When He confronted Mary early that morning near the tomb, He told her not to touch or handle him as He had yet ascended to the Father.  We know that later that evening, the disciples did touch Him as He told them to.  Yet the ascension of Acts 1 was to occur many days later.  What happened at the morning resurrection was in keeping with Leviticus 23.  As now our High Priest, He would need to remain ceremonially pure to present the first fruits of the harvest to the Father, hence His instruction to Mary to not touch Him.  After accomplishing the task of presenting the first fruits of the harvest of the redeemed, it would then be ok to touch Him, as they did later when He appeared to the disciples.

3 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible says 2, the first resurrection and 1000 years later the other one. Rev. 20

Well, you missed the other two.  I gave the scripture references.  

At least 4 resurrections.  The first happened in Matthew 27.  There will be another in Revelation 11.   A third one in Revelation 20.   And the one I have tickets for is the one prior to the Time of Jacob’s Trouble as per Isaiah 26 and Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians.

I see there are some who don’t have a good grasp on ecclesiology.   

So you did a cut and paste and just reiterated what you said earlier.  Nice.  But repeating something twice does not lend more support. Unless you are following the Joseph Goebbels methodology that if one takes a falsehood and repeats it often enough that eventually it becomes the perceived truth.   Which seems to be the case here.  So I would concur..... I am not interested.

4 hours ago, Sister said:

 Psalms 89:18   For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
 

10 hours ago, Sister said:

During the thousand years, the Lord Jesus is Israel's wall, not a military.  He controls the boundaries, and he says who can come in or not.  Anyone who does not seek the Lord cannot enter.  That wall is strong.

If one takes Ezekiel 38 by itself, they might be able to shoe horn it into the time frame of the end of the 1000 years.  but context is everything, and Ezekiel 39 is a continuation, talking about the same event and there is a lot there that cannot legitimately be tied into the 1000 years period, especially Ezekiel 39:21 onward.   So it has to be pre Messianic Kingdom.  And at present, the Lord is not the physical defense of Israel today in the way you are trying to assert.  And one cannot tie in Ezekiel 38 and 39 together into the 1000 years without offering some very substantive supporting text from both NT and OT, or using some sort of gymnastics in their scripture exegesis and allegorizing things to an extreme.

There is no evidence that Ezekiel 38-39 the Lord is already physically ruling from Zion as is the period of the 1000 years.  But in Psalms 2 which does have the rebellion at the end of the 1000 years in mind, does show that Yeshua has been established and set King over Zion when the nations imagine a vain thing and wish to throw off the rule of Messiah over them.  And that does tie in to Satan being able to deceive the nations at the end of the 1000 years to rebel.

So I don't accept the assertion trying to be made that Ezekiel 38-39 is talking about the end of the Messianic Kingdom 1000 years.