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OldCoot

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About OldCoot

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  • Birthday 01/12/1957

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  1. OldCoot

    The timing of the 6th seal

    I also see Revelation 12:5 being the body of Messiah, the Church, and the passage in Isaiah a close cousin of it. One thing that stands clear in many passages of scripture is that they can have a double fulfillment. it is not always a "either/or" type of thing. Revelation 12:5 says the child is caught up which is the Greek Harpazo, or forcibly snatched away. Latin would be Raptus, from which we get Rapture. And it would happen at the child's birth. Kinda hard to make the case that Yeshua was forcibly snatched away to the throne of God at His birth. But if one sees the Church was conceived by the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem, has been growing, and is now being brought forth or birthed and at that time is being caught up to the Father, then it kind of fits. And Revelation 2:26-29 says those who overcome will rule and reign with Yeshua with a "rod of iron", just like in the Revelation 12:5 passage. There seem to be many passages in the OT that Israel will give birth before it travails. Those passages all seem to be in the context of what we would call the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble / 70th Week of Daniel, etc. And if one combines this with Chapters 4-5 where we see the 24 Elders. In chapter 5, they outline who they are. They state they have been redeemed from every tribe, tongue, nation, people. They say they are kings and priests just like Pete told us in 1 Peter 2:9 where he said the believers are a royal priesthood. And they claim they will reign upon the earth. Again, Revelation 2:26-29. David divided the priesthood of Israel into 24 divisions back in 1 Chronicles 24. I would suggest that set the precedence for the Church (royal priesthood) being viewed as 24 Elders. After all, Yeshua is a descendent of King David and the prophets said He would rule in the authority of David. The angel Gabriel affirmed that to Mary. And since these elders are there when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals on it, it wold seem that the Church is no longer on the earth. If one reads the text for what it says and doesn't try to find some mystical, esoteric meaning, the solution can sometimes expose itself. It follows the hermeneutic maxim of "if the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense lest one end up with nonsense" (paraphrased). A close cousin of that is the concept of Occam's Razor, that the simplest solution is probably the correct solution. I have, for some time, seen The Revelation as both chronological and parenthetical in nature. It does progress in a chronological fashion, but shifts to a parenthetical mode and "fills in the gaps" as it were to previous things that have happened. I think Revelation 12 is just such a parenthetical passage.
  2. OldCoot

    Unpardonable sin

    Yeah, in that context I think you would be right. But their stating "you have a demon" what really were they doing? Rejecting the Messiah, the Son of God, of which the Holy Spirit testifies of. I would still contend that it is the rejection of the Messiah, the only path to God, that is the unpardonable sin.
  3. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I have no doubt you believe it. Many folks like to complicate things and make them more mystical than they really are. For me, It started out in the military, then in college math classes, and has carried on ever since..... the simplest, most straight forward solution is usually the best solution. Also known as Occam's Razor. So I applied that and let the Elders speak for themselves on who they were, compared what they said about themselves to what the rest of scripture was saying, and stuck with that. And since they didn't say they wrote or had anything to do with the Tanakh, it really doesn't factor in for me.
  4. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Now, either you are just naive or you are just trying to act like an idiot and being contentious for the sake of it. Now we have to figure out which. I think I have a bead on which. If there were Apocryphal books in the standard Bible, the total would be more than 66. Any standard KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, TLV, ESV, etc has 66 books. Genesis to Revelation in the recognized canon of scripture is 66 books. 39 in the OT and 27 in the NT. And they were written by 40 different writers all led by the Holy Spirit, who is the one true author. I feel sorry for your parents.
  5. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Well, best I can tell, the Scriptures were written by 40 guys who wrote down what the one author, the Holy Spirit, told them. Nice try though. From the Answers is Genesis folks so you don't get the idea I made that up.... The Bible is composed of 66 books by 40 different writers over 1,500 years, yet it has one consistent storyline running all the way through, and it has just one ultimate author — God.
  6. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Well, I appreciate the legwork you put into "analyzing it deeply", but I prefer to let the Elders say who they are. And I showed you that, and it comports with a maxim in Biblical hermeneutics which is roughly the following....... When the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense, or you risk ending up with nonsense. I really don't give a rip who the angels are in in that scene. They are angels. They are not the Elders. The Elders specifically state...... Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” 1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; And King David divided the priesthood into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24, setting the precedent which will come later. Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— 27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;
  7. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Let's look at that closer. Revelation 2:26-29, Yeshua states that all those who overcome will rule and reign with a rod of iron, as He has been given by the Father. That was written to the Churches. The 24 Elders specifically claim in Revelation 5 that they have been redeemed of every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. They also lay claim that they will reign upon the earth, in keeping with the above reference. David separated the priests into 24 divisions in 1 Chronicles 24. Peter says that the Church is a "royal priesthood" (read: Kings and Priests) in 1 Peter 2:9. These 24 Elders are already on their 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God before Yeshua is given the scroll with the seals on it. Now, those redeemed in Revelation 7. Yes, they are also from all the nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, just as the 24 Elders are, but there is no claim that they reign on the earth. There is no claim that they are part of the Churches. They are not on thrones. They stand before the throne of God, serving Him day and night. They are AFTER Yeshua has opened the seals. It would seem that they have been granted a special reward for the enduring the trials of the GT undo death by serving the Father day and night and He will personally comfort them and wipe away their tears, whereas the Church that was removed at the start of the Trib period (aka 24 Elders) is to rule on the earth with Yeshua. Both groups are equal in that Yeshua has redeemed them. But they are still two unique groups that have differing roles. Neither is "better" or "less" than the other. They have all been redeemed by the Blood of Yeshua. Both roles are unique and special. Only pride (a sin by the way) would lead some to conclude that one group is better or less than the other.
  8. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    No sale, Uriah. Thanks for sharing though. Not a condition of salvation, so I am not worried one way or the other. The scripture regarding the harvest, OT references, and the early Church writers does it for me. Basing a theology on one verse interpretation is a minefield. And I learned early in my military career to not go into minefields. Perfect can mean glorified/resurrected, but it can also simply mean complete or consecrated. You see, basing a theology on parsing words in a verse is touchy at best. And there was no punctuation in the original autographs, so using that seems spurious at best.
  9. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Matthew 27:51-53 (NKJV) Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. How does the passage in Hebrews forbid such an interpretation? Hebrews 11:40 (NKJV) God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Especially in context of the verse that follows it.... Hebrews 12:1 (NKJV) Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Now, many early church writers are considered very sound in what they taught. They concur that these saints of Matthew 27 were taken to the Father. That idea conforms to the harvest regulations of Leviticus 23, and Yeshua pointed to the idea of the harvest several times in His discourses. I could be as wrong about this as anyone else. But given the preponderance of evidence, I think I will hold onto my assertion. Thanks for sharing.
  10. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Well, we will just have to disagree. I see the removal of the righteous as either just before or at the start of the GT period. A several OT passages lend support to that. And that is a requirement by the Lord.... before anything can be established, it must be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. When it comes to scripture, any position we hold on these things must be supported in both the OT and NT. The OT is all the Bereans had when they were commended by the Holy Spirit for searching the scripture daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. These are the two witnesses that fulfill the standard established by the Lord, the NT and OT. And the 404 verses of Revelation have over 500 references to the OT. So I think it might be important to use the OT to help establish one's case.
  11. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Well, there is more that one resurrection and removal of the righteous. A minimum of 3 in the NT alone. And some of these are expounded upon in the Tanakh (OT). The OT saints in Matthew 27 is one. Many early Church writers, who are recognized as solid commentators that either knew the apostles or their disciples, wrote that these saints were caught up to the throne of God after their resurrection closely behind Yeshua's resurrection. And before you poo poo other writer's outside of scripture comments, remember that even in scripture there are many quotes from extrabiblical sources. But the writers who commented on this issue are considered genuine. And those saints that were resurrected were not part of the "Church" since the Church didn't begin till 49 days later. But they are saints and redeemed. The witnesses of Revelation 11 is another. They are resurrected and caught up. Probably the most "in your face" definitive event mentioned. And the one of 1 Thessalonians 4 which is expounded upon in 2 Thessalonians 2. These three.... distinct from each other and we haven't even gotten to the resurrection at the end of the millennial reign when all the dead are raised and judged. But that GWT one is of a prosecutorial nature unlike the Bema judgement of believers for determining rewards. Why is it so preposterous for there to be a resurrection for the GT saints that is separate and distinct from the Church or any of the others? One of the 24 Elders in heaven tells John in Revelation 7 that those John is seeing are the ones who come out of the GT. So either these folks are resurrected and removed prior to the Church in general or they are afterward. They sure are distinct from the Church. And I have expounded that the 24 Elders lay claim to the description of believers in the Church. And Enoch and Elijah were taken. while not a hallmark indication of other rapture events, supportive nonetheless. Enoch and Elijah also are in the camp of the "redeemed". And they sure aren't the "Church" which wasn't an entity until Shavuot 32AD. Heresy would be if I denied the Son of God, 2nd person of the Trinity, His virgin birth, and His redemptive work to reconcile to the Father those who place their trust in Him. Some folks throw "heresy" around like a punch line designed to denigrate others they don't agree with, showing the gifts of the Holy Spirit they lack.
  12. Well, throne may be more akin to a seat of power, not necessary a physical throne unless the text specifies that. Like God seated on His throne. Exalting a throne may not suggest a literal throne but an authority or power. We know that Yeshua will be given David's throne as per the promise, yet I think we can agree that the physical seat David sat on is probably long since gone. But Yeshua will occupy the authority and power of David as per the Davidic Covenant and affirmed by Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32. So the claim of ha Satan was probably more in regards to establishing his authority and power above the stars (a suggestive reference to angels) of God. It is another take on the subject. May be right or wrong. It is not a critical issue. Either way, he loses.
  13. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Well, not only the KJV and NKJV translate it as "us", but also Young's Literal Translation (same guy who did Young's Concordance which is on par with Strong's), Green's Literal Translation, etc. Even English translations I have seen of the Latin Vulgate. But like the Elders, they would fall down before the Lord. Every created thing would. The GT saints are included in EVERYTHING in the Gospel. They just are not the Church or even the OT Saints for that matter. But the Gospel... the Good News of reconciliation to God thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua, the Son of God, and that is granted by trust and faith in that redemptive work of Yeshua....is applicable. Anything added to that or taken away from that simple, basic truth is "another gospel". It was the promise from the time of Adam onward. But hey, the GT saints are granted a special privilege that even the OT saints or the Church is not given..... Revelation 7:14-17 (TLV) Then he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His Temple. The One seated on the throne will shelter them. 16 They shall never again go hungry, nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not beat down on them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne shall shepherd them and guide them to springs of living water, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes. The 24 Elders (the Church) surround the throne, but they are not before the throne and serve God directly as these GT saints are rewarded with. The Elders (Church) rule and reign with Messiah but they are not the one who stand before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His Temple. But hey, don't feel bad. I don't.
  14. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    Help me out here, where do the four creatures who surround the throne claim to be redeemed from among the nations like the Elders do?
  15. OldCoot

    Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

    I suppose one could see the resemblance. While Moses was told to fashion the earthly Tabernacle after the one in Heaven, it was David who divided the Priests into 24 divisions. The Elders say who they are, so what any of us speculate really is of little consequence. I am not sure that Angels fall in to the classification of "redeemed from among the nations" as the Elders lay claim to. And it would be a quite a stretch to think that Yeshua redeemed the angels by His blood shed. Call me a little crazy, but I thought Yeshua's blood was shed for mankind. Any that might think these 24 Elders are angels, see if this sounds like angels are in view..... Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.
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