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OldCoot

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About OldCoot

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  • Birthday 01/12/1957

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  1. The context of when those are taken is from the hook up to those in Noah's day. The taken then were the ones who were taken away in the flood. Those fit for destruction. And then the discourse goes right into those who are taken at the time of the end. To maintain hermeneutical integrity, it has to mean that those taken are the ones fit for destruction. It is the lead up to Matthew 25 regarding the maidens and the sheep/goat judgement. The parable of the maidens is an exposition on Ezekiel 20 where at the end, the Lord says that He will have Jacob (Israel) pass under the rod and purge out the rebellious. Those that are not purged out remain. The Sheep/Goat judgement is the same thing except it pertains to the nations being judged. That is an exposition on Joel 3. And in that case also, those fit for destruction are removed. From both of these groups, those that are left are the mortal people who go into the Messianic kingdom and repopulate the earth. And being mortal, they will have mortal children that will sin also. Unfortunately, to the extent that by the end of the 1000 years and Satan is released, he is able to foment a major final rebellion.
  2. You and I are on the same page! I didn't post it but I am glad you did! It is definitely apropos. Well done!
  3. You as well. Many expositors see the same thing i do in the passage. Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Dr. John Walvoord, among others. Hardly slouches when it comes to scripture expostion. They also make the assertion that the view of Daniel 8:23-26 is relative to the final world ruler / antichrist.
  4. Everything that Yeshua taught lined up with the Tanakh. Even the story of the woman caught in adultery, so many speculate what Yeshua wrote in the dirt and yet Zechariah told us all along. The names of those who had come against the woman and rejected Yeshua. Jeremiah 17:13 (NKJV) O Lord, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You shall be ashamed. “Those who depart from Me Shall be written in the earth, Because they have forsaken the Lord, The fountain of living waters Just earlier in the passage of John 7, at the final day of the feast of tabernacles when the high priest would take water from the pool of Siloam as "living water" to the alter, Yeshua stood up and made the claim that He was the source of living water and later He was rejected by the authorities. Even His very name was revealed in the OT before Gabriel announced it to Mary. The branch of David's name would be..... Zechariah 6:11-13 (NKJV) Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord; 13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both There is nothing that Yeshua did or taught that is not in the OT. Even the Revelation that was revealed direct to Him by the Father and He revealed it to John via an angel. Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 references to the OT alone.
  5. I have seen the same correlation for quite some time. Isaiah 26 has been a real nugget. You are on target and fit things together well. Take it a wee bit further..... look at the word for indignation in Isaiah 26:20.... za'am .... which also means wrath. Then take a look at Daniel 8:19. The same word is used. And following the passage in Daniel, it talks about a king who will arise in the future and describes the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist. And it Daniel 8:19, it says this guy is revealed later in the wrath, not before the wrath. Go back to Isaiah 26 and the righteous are hidden their rooms (see John 14) before the wrath starts. This is an "in your face" confirmation of the pre-trib removal of the righteous. Many attribute this fierce king that arises with Antiochus, but there are many learned expositors that show the passage is talking about the final fierce king that will come upon the earth.... the antichrist. Antiochus was a forerunner, but what is described goes beyond anything Antiochus was.
  6. But like I stated, for that to be the case it has to meet the evidentiary requirement set forth in the Torah... it has to be confirmed by two witnesses and the Bereans affirmed this and set forth the requirement of the OT and NT being those two witnesses. Not two from the same section, passage, book, etc but both OT and NT. Thus far, you have shown no support for your position from the OT. It is the reason that Yeshua did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery. After he had told the nincompoops that had come to stone her, that anyone without sin could cast the first stone, they walked away leaving no other witnesses to condemn her. Yeshua knew what she had done, but was only one witness. And according to the Torah, she could not be condemned on the testimony of one witness, so Yeshua told her to go and sin no more. On the other hand, I and others have provided many examples of how the redeemed that make up the body of Messiah are caught away before the tribulation period begins. Equally in both OT and NT. Nothing you have presented has negated the testimony of those two witnesses. So unless you can provide support from the OT for your assertion, it does not meet the evidentiary requirement of scripture and is invalid. Therefore, due to lack of evidence.... case dismissed.
  7. Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. That is why Matthew 24 doesn't line up with your assertion. Especially since other passages in both OT and NT show the redeemed are gathered to the Lord before the end times events begin. And, since there is no reference of the redeemed being referred to as an elect body until later in the epistles, and even then, it is never stated that Jacob no longer is elect. Never confuse election with redemption. All redeemed are elect, but not all elect are redeemed.
  8. But nowhere does Yeshua say in Matthew 24 that the redeemed of Yeshua are the elect He is talking about. The entire discourse is directed at the Hebrew people starting in Matthew 23 onward. Starting at the temple area and later at the Mount of Olives. If you want a discourse directed to the church you are in the wrong passage. You need to look at John 14-16 at the last supper. Following the hermeneutic principle of law of first mention and expositional constancy, the elect of Matthew 24-25 refers to Jacob (Israel). The Hebrew people. From Matthew 23 right on thru the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25. Never are the redeemed referred to as the "elect" until the epistles. So the elect that Yeshua refers to has to be the elect of Isaiah, which is Jacob (Israel). If one doesn't follow established principles of exegesis then there is no objective standard and folks end up all over the map in terms of these things.
  9. yes, at the appearance of Yeshua, not the physical returning upon the earth. The scripture, both OT and NT support that the redeemed... dead and living... are called out, removed, and protected in the tabernacle of Yahweh per King David prior to the tribulation period or time of Jacob's trouble per Jeremiah and Isaiah. As the bride is called out to the groom when He comes to get her in the Hebrew wedding oft referenced by Yeshua, those alive and dead that make up the redeemed of Yeshua will be called out from the earth to join Him in the air as Paul wrote to us, and we will be hidden in the rooms provided by Him according to John 14 and Isaiah 26... before the tribulation period. The blessed hope.
  10. But eschatology is not on the level of essentials of the faith. Many have differing views on what they see for future events from scripture. The only reason for the resistance escalating into vitriol is of folks elevate eschatology to the level of essential.
  11. As I also pointed out, the elect are also the people of Jacob (Israel) per Isaiah. And Yeshua expands on that in Matthew 25 on the sheep and goat judgement which is a discourse on Joel 3. The nations are judged on how they treated the "elect". If only those redeemed are the elect, then how it is some of the nations are considered elect on how they treat the elect? It makes little sense. Yeshua is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. He is Hebrew. His brethren are the Hebrew people. The Hebrew people are the elect of Yahweh per the scripture. The sheep and goat judgment is on the nations on how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people. This is straight out of Joel 3. And that assertion follows the mandate of the Torah regarding establishing a matter on the testimony of two witnesses, and as the Bereans in Acts 17 showed us, the two witnesses are the NT and the OT. So underling that the elect are gathered from the four winds does not prove that the redeemed at the start of the tribulation period go thru it. The pre-trib still stands firm. And see the post before this one.
  12. While there are many passages that support the pre-trib position, there is one that truly nails it for me. 2 Thessalonians 2. The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul... our assembling or gathering to Yeshua. 2 Thessalonians 2:1(1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset? 2 Thessalonians 2:2(1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand. Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3(1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English version prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another. And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure as in removal is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity. As Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, has stated it, "2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib.... game, set, match."
  13. Elevating works or acting rightly and making it a condition of justification of the individual is adding to the Gospel. Justification, our reconciliation to Yahweh is by faith and trust in the atonement of Yeshua via His death, burial, and resurrection. That is the only way anyone is worthy. Anything added to that is a corruption of the Gospel. The gift of that justification is eternal life. If it can be lost, then it was not eternal. Paul was quite clear to the Corinthians that the man who was in grievous sin by shacking up with his step mother should be shunned from the assembly, but Paul also was clear that the man's justification was not in question. 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NKJV) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Back on topic. Anyone who has been justified by the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua and by faith in that alone, is worthy of catching the train ride out of here. Their ticket is punched and their seat is reserved.
  14. I would agree with the assertion you are making with the texts you are posting, as long it is only applied to the core doctrines of the faith. Eschatology is not one of them. We can compare scripture and come to various conclusions on what we see regarding future events. There is diversity in the body. On the core things such as the nature of God, the deity of Yeshua, the trinity, the virgin birth, the Gospel of reconciliation with God only thru the shed blood of Yeshua via the death, burial, and resurrection, and justification is by faith alone..... there can be no compromise. Where things get goofy is elevating the non essentials, like eschatology, to the class of essential. And many are guilty of that. And usually, these who are the ones behind any division within the body. Sharing an alternative idea about these things is not causing division. And it is not promoting false teaching which by definition is malicious forethought and teaching something that the individual knows is wrong. it may be error in some way. But to elevate the eschatological error as being "another gospel" or maliciously causing division is taking things too far by some. Only if it is known the individual teaching it has malicious intent to deceive can they then be accused of such things.
  15. The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul...... 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset? 2 Thessalonians 2:2 (1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand. Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another. Even the Latin Vulgate... the standard bible of the church for 1200 years.... uses dicessio, which is departure. And dicessio has in view a spatial or distance departure not a spiritual departure. And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure (as in removal) is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity. As Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, has stated..... "2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib. Game. Set. Match"
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