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OldCoot

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About OldCoot

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  • Birthday 01/12/1957

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  1. If I may expand on that...... Luke 4:17-20 (NKJV) And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. Yeshua is reading from Isaiah.... Isaiah 61:1-2 (NKJV) "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God; Yeshua stopped before the highlighted passage. All is fulfilled at the time He read it as He proclaimed. But He purposefully left off the part "And the day of vengeance of our God". It is the final tribulation period when The Lord will deliver His vengeance upon the earth. So by default, this passage from Luke supports the idea of a 2000 year gap. And it does support the idea that the gap is from the time of the Messiah being cut off or more appropriately in Hebrew, executed, in Daniel 9:26 until the tribulation period when His vengeance will come. I think many get things messed up when they don't remember that the focus of the 70 weeks is Daniel's people, the Hebrews. And it is a bit of a stretch to think that the last 2000 years have primarily been a focus on Israel ( Jacob... all the Hebrews). But that time will come when Israel will once again be the primary focus. So there is indeed support for a major gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of 7 years. There will be no doubt in anyone's mind when the 70th week begins... when the covenant is affirmed with national Israel. While the Hebrews were in the land during Yeshua's time, they had not been an independent nation since they were exiled to Babylon. From the time of the Babylonian captivity until 1948, there was no independent Israel. The land was controlled by Babylon, Greece, Rome, the Muslims including the Ottoman Empire, and Great Britain. There was a period when the Hasmoneans controlled the territory of Israel, but it was a divided control and not a unified national Israel. So there is no way the covenant could be affirmed with collective Israel in the first century. By Rome or anyone else. And that covenant, I believe, is the Covenant that guarantees the land right to national Israel and is affirmed by the one who comes, the pseudo Messiah / antichrist / man of sin / son of perdition. Only now are things in place for that to happen. Thus, the 70th week has not started yet. This portion of Daniel 9:26 is interesting... The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Many Hebrew scholars have suggest "flood" in the passage is the diaspora of the Hebrew people. The entomology of the Hebrew suggest a "washing away" which diaspora of the Hebrew people from the land could be in view.
  2. that was a affirmation of Hosea 5:14-15 in conjunction with Psalms 118:26 Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, And like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Psalms 118:26 (NKJV) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
  3. One thing for certain, for such a wealth of fossils, sedimentary structures, petrified wood, etc, it was the result of some pretty tough cataclysmic events. I became pretty aware of that from many Geology and Anthropology courses I had in college. I never bought into the party line of uniformitarianism as espoused by Charles Lyell, et al that presupposes deposition happened over millions of years. A carcass does not wait around for 100 feet of sediment to pile on. deposition has to be fast and heavy. Else predatory birds and animals ravage the carcass and is ends up distributed over and area. Not enough deposition, and the carcass decomposes too quickly thus preventing since the oxygen is not forced away under the weight of too little deposition. Wood will rot if not quickly petrified and we see trees standing completely vertical thru dozens of feet to sedimentary rock involving multiple layers. It had to be fast. I also concur that Genesis 1:2 has in view that the earth became (hayah) Tohu Va Bohu... without form and void. I find it tough to believe the Lord created it that way. Something happened. We can try and piece other pieces of scripture to see if the image emerges of what happened. Like.... Jeremiah 4:23-26 (NKJV Strong's) I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. 25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled. 26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the Lord, By His fierce anger. Prophecy is pattern, not only prediction. While the passage in general is a reference to Judah and Jerusalem, never was the nation brought to a point of being without form and void (tohu va bohu - same terminology as Genesis 1) and the heavens without light. Only in Genesis 1 did that happen. Doesn't make a definitive case for Genesis 1, but it adds another piece of the puzzle. One thing for certain, the heavens and earth were already in place before the "let there be light" of day one. Could the reason for the "became without form and void" of Genesis 1 be the angelic rebellion? Could be. Maybe not. One day we will all know what happened. We can have friendly discussions on varying conclusions and make a feeble human attempt at figuring things out. If the Lord would have thought it was important for us to know all the details, He would have given them.
  4. I think it may be presumption that the "church" is present during the seals. It seems based primarily on the mention of "saints" in Chapter 8, as if saints are only within the church as established at Shavuot/Pentacost. Especially since the church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 until the final salutation by John at the end of the book. There were saints before the New Covenant church was established at Shavuot / Pentacost as shown in Matthew 27 and throughout the OT, and there will be those who come to belief and are considered saints after the Church has been caught away. One of the conditions of Yeshua's return is the national recognition by Israel of their rejection of Him and petitioning for His return. Hosea 5 and Matthew 23. So by default, those Hebrews that come to faith that results in that national recognition would make them saints also, even though it happens toward the tail end of the tribulation period. And later, according to Ezekiel 20, when Yeshua actually sets foot on the earth, He will separate out those saints from the rebels of Israel. Likewise, when He sets foot on the earth, He will gather all the nations (goyim - gentiles) and likewise separate the righteous from the unrighteous according to Joel 3 and Matthew 25. So again, saints or righteous are in view but it doesn't make them the New Covenant Church which is the Body of Messiah. Especially in light of Revelation 2 where it says we will rule with a rod of iron along with Yeshua. The Church proper will participate with Yeshua in those separation events that occur when Yeshua physically returns, but the church is not the focus of those separations.
  5. God did not give anyone 7 days warning at the time of the Flood. He had Noah, family, and animals sealed inside the ark 7 days before the flood came. The warning had been given for 120 year prior to that. When the door to the ark was sealed, it was all over for anyone outside. I am not convinced anyone could have gotten in nor could Noah get out. The door was sealed by Yahweh. So I see no reason that there would be 7 days notice before the removal of the righteous. I realize there is a 2 minute warning in football, but not so with the removal. Everyone has gotten all the warning they are going to get for the last almost 2000 years.
  6. I know the question was not directed at me, but If I may...... I think it is corporate, national Israel that has to accept Yeshua. It was not individual Hebrews who rejected Him, it was the national leadership that rejected Him. After all, all the disciples and a large majority of those who traveled with Yeshua also were Hebrew. And corporate, national Israel has never acknowledge that sin of rejection yet. But I am convinced that the tribulation period will change all that. They will have their back against the wall and have no other recourse but to acknowledge Him. After all, that is one of the primary reasons that period is coming upon the earth. But along with that, not each and every Hebrew is going to accept. Ezekiel 20 shows that all of Jacob/Israel will pass under the rod and be separated out. Just like the nations will be gathered and separated out in the sheep and goat judgement of Matthew 25. Ezekiel 20:33-38 (NKJV) As I live," says the Lord God, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God. 37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
  7. Ok, let's look at this simply. It a common thread in theology that the Church as we know it started at Shavuot/Pentacost when the Holy Spirit came upon those in the room following Yeshua's (Jesus) ascension back to His place. So there is no way the Church could have caused the sin of rejecting Him that caused that return. Even if one could shoehorn the idea that the church/ekklesia was already a functioning entity before Yeshua's return to His place, it still would not have been the church/ekklesia that caused the return because the functioning ekklesia, by nature of what the ekklesia is, has never collectively rejected the Messiah. It is a non sequitur and you are arguing your position using the LXX from a weak start. Just like the Lord is said to protect those who trust in Him under his wings does not by extension mean He has feathers. And in that same context, He will not return until those people (Jacob/Israel) that rejected Him acknowledge that sin of rejection and petition Him to return. Not a few that have already turned, but the entire collective people of Jacob/Israel. And that excludes the church, because by default, believers in the church have accepted Him. And that corporate national acceptance of Messiah by Israel is talked about all thru the scripture, and is tied to a time when as a national corporate entity they are being severely afflicted. Not really sure how this is so difficult.
  8. I believe I did. Or rather Yeshua did in Hosea 5.... Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, [House of Israel] And like a young lion to the house of Judah. [House of Judah] I, even I, will tear them and go away; I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. 15 I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me." Seems pretty clear. Yeshua will return to His place. In order to do that, He had to have left His place, which He did at His first coming. And that He will return to His place "till" they (Jacob/Israel, both houses per Hosea) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him. So there has to be a literal, collective people of Jacob/Israel in place for them to collectively acknowledge that offense, turn to Him, and petition His return, which they will do because of their affliction which I believe is the Tribulation Period. And Yeshua affirms this in Matthew 23.... Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" Jerusalem/Zion has always been a symbol of the entire nation of Israel since early on. National Israel would not accept the Messiah. And national/corporate Israel will not see Him again until they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" which is Psalms 118:26. And when they do.... Zechariah 12:10 (NKJV) And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Now, it begs the question.... when did the church cause Yeshua to return to His place given that the church did not start until after He had already returned? Just a wee little flaw in the logic of those that want to claim the church is now Israel. Not really. What I outlined above really doesn't matter if one is pre, mid, post, or pre-wrath or anything in between. All of those positions hold that the redeemed are caught up to be with Messiah before He literally returns and sets foot on the planet again, which conforms to what I stated regarding the church/ekklesia is caught up at some point before Yeshua returns. I never stated what that point before His return is. That you wanted to lay out some claim that it is pre-trib position exhibits a bias that is clouding your reasoning. Probably ought not do that.
  9. I see the parables as talking off the millennial kingdom, but many of them not in a good way. In Revelation 2:26-27 and Psalm 2:8-9, we see that Yeshua will be ruling with a "rod of iron". Man, that gives a pretty strong image that Yeshua will be having to lay the heavy hand down on people getting out of line. But is that a true assumption? In the parable of the mustard seed, the birds are gathering in the tree. But the birds were described in the previous parable of the sower as the evil ones who steal the seed. So it would seem that the evil ones (those cohorts of Satan that were not locked up) will still be around intermingling in the millennial kingdom and trying to mess things up. Birds are rarely seen in scripture as a good thing. Remember the sacrifice of Abraham where Yahweh put him in a sleep? Genesis 15. And what of the parable of the leaven? A woman is introducing leaven into 3 measures of meal. Well, 3 measures of meal is the fellowship offering. Leaven is always viewed as a picture of sin and corruption in scripture. To introduce leaven into the fellowship offering for the Temple was a capital offense. When we almost always see a woman introducing corruption, the name Jezebel seems to be applied. And eventually, the leaven permeates the entire meal. When we see these things in the parables, it makes sense that Yeshua will have to rule with a rod of iron to keep things under control. And it explains why after 1000 years when Satan is released, almost the entire world rebels one last time with him against the Lord.
  10. You have made defamatory accusations towards me in other posts. You are not worthy of any dialogue. I didn't even bother to read what you posted above. I just linked it to make sure you got the message.
  11. The Torah is good when it is viewed and used properly. And in terms of sanctification (setting apart from the world) it can be an exceptional guide. It is the guide book from the creator. But it has no power to justify.... that can only be thru Messiah. Another thought on this... if our so-called criminal justice system were to follow the Torah more closely, then there would indeed be true justice for victims. I am not even referencing capital offenses. If for instance, a thief was required to be indentured and forced to work to make restitution 2 or 3 fold to the victim as is required in Torah, then true justice would happen. Instead, we just lock them up at a very substantial cost to society and the victim is never compensated properly. So under the present system, both the victim and society is robbed for the actions of another. So the Torah is good and valid even today. But we have thrown it and God under the bus and choose to do our own thing. And boy, what a cost comes with that.
  12. And that is fine. Eschatology is not a condition of justification. We all see these things a little differently. We can have civil discussions about these things and present what we think makes our case.
  13. Yeshua took away the charges against us as believers, as revealed in the Torah. "It is finished".... Greek - tetelestai .... "paid in full". The Torah is still good, valid, and trustworthy and in full force. The Torah has the Messiah all thru it. The Torah has just as much power to judge as it ever did. But for those who embrace Yeshua, the penalty is paid in full. Yeshua said that not one letter or even the decoration on a letter (not one jot or tittle) would pass from the Torah till all is fulfilled. And the Torah, I believe, will be the bedrock standard of the ruling of Yeshua over the nations in the millennial kingdom. It does say in the Psalms and in Revelation that He will rule with a rod of iron. That implies some are getting out of line and have to be dealt with. I believe the Torah will be the foundational standard used to judge that. One can have Torah and still have grace. They can coexist with each other. And the OT shows us that idea. I never have been able to understand why so many have such a negative view of the Torah, "Law". Within the precepts in the Torah is the revealing of Messiah. Even the timing of His revealing. If one looks at many of the Torah requirements, within them is shown the redemption of Messiah. For instance, while those guilty of murder are condemned to execution, those guilty of unintended murder, what we would call "manslaughter" have a recourse instead of being executed. If one is guilty of manslaughter, they could flee to one of the cities of refuge and remain there and be protected from the wrath of the next of kin, the enforcer. At the death of the High Priest is when they could safely leave the city, but there was still a risk of the next of Kin killing them, albeit illegally. The "state" was not who killed a murderer, it was the next of kin who was allowed to kill a murderer. We are all guilty of murder. But Yeshua said that were were only guilty of unintended murder, manslaughter, when He said.... "they know not what they do". To prevent the next of Kin, the Father, from condemning us, we are to flee to the city of refuge, the Messiah. And we are then free from the judgement of the next of Kin, the Father, until the death of our High Priest, Yeshua, who never will again die. We are forever protected from the wrath of the Father against those who are guilty of the Son's death. And all who ever live are guilty of that murder. It is our sin that put Him on that Cross. So knowing such things as this in the Torah, how can anyone really have a negative view of the Torah? Paul sure didn't.
  14. It seems from the text of Revelation 11, that the temple had not yet been occupied by the psuedo messiah, claiming to be God. Only the outer court seems to have anything to do with the gentiles. And the text talks about the two witnesses being able to do their thing for 42 months / 1260 days before they are killed. No one is able to touch them and many of the people on the earth hate these guys. But at the end of that period, they are killed, the beast, which is a common reference to the pseudo messiah / man of sin / son of perdition is able to then kill them. Since they had been untouchable up to that point, it seems it is that event that will allow the beast to finally lay claim to being God, break the 7 year covenant of Daniel 9:27, and desolate the temple. Thereby cause the majority on earth to wonder after the beast.... Revelation 13:4 (NKJV) So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" I am more convinced that these two witnesses are witnessing for 42 months / 1260 days against the one who confirmed the covenant as per Daniel 9:27, the pseudo messiah / beast / man of sin / son of perdition. They do similar things that Moshe brought against Pharaoh, and Moshe could not be touched by Pharaoh. And they cause rain being withheld is like Elijah did.... for 3.5 years... James 5:17 (NKJV) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
  15. No, because the text says...., Revelation 4:1 (NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." The "after these" (Greek.. meta houtos) is the trigger that separates the parts of the outline of Revelation 1:19. John was called up to heaven after the churches. The delineation of the outline of Revelation could not be more clear. Revelation 1:19 (NKJV) Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are (the Churches), and the things which will take place after this. (Greek.. meta houtos). Feel free to break out whatever concordance, dictionary, interlinear you want. It is true that there are instances in the text of Revelation later where this same phrase is used, but this is the first occurrence which comports to the outline of the book as laid out by Yeshua. All the other "after these" in the book are after yet future events that follow major future events... after the seals.... after the sealed of the 12 tribes (the focus of the 70th week of Daniel) had happened, etc. The very next occurrence of "after these" is after all 6 seals have been opened. Not just one, two, three, four, or five. And it would take some real expositional gymnastics to derive that all 6 seals are opened in the time of the churches. And the Thessalonians had been told in a forged letter claiming to be from Paul that the tribulation period had started. 2 Thessalonians 2:2, but Paul reminds them that day would not come unless a departure happens first. Since the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 is the day of Christ and our gathering unto Him, the departure of verse 3 and the taken out of the way in verse 7 pertains to the church/ekklesia and the Holy Spirit who resides in the ekklesia. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way. And that likewise comports with "after these" of Revelation 4:1.
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