Mishael

I don't listen to opinions of Christians, Muslims, or Jews, I listen to facts. So if it's a fabrication then you accept people fabricated a verse like the Quran?

It seems Shabir Ali forgets this Hadith recorded a verse Mohammed recited so if it was fabricated then it means they produced a Quranic Surah and that would disapprove the Quran. Muslims also have no solid basis to reject this Hadith as false.

Because you can't refute me also you didn't answer my question above: How do you reconcile the Gharaniq incident with Islam, if this event if fabricated ad you Muslims love to say then someone must have fabricated it and since this event is recording a verse Mohammed supposedly said then someone must have produced and fabricated a verse like the Quran. You Muslims have no way out of this argument, anywhoe I invite you to provide an answer.

See how you Muslims run when you have nothing left to throw at us.

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. SURA 9:29 This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination…. Then on Pages 405, 406 … Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr (Unbeliever) and Disgrace. Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Ibn Kathir on verse 9:29, op cit, pages 404 - 409 The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden - who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled." 9:29 The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim…. from the classic manual of Islamic sacred law (the “Reliance of the Traveler”) When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Surah 9:5 You'd want quick to point out this means only certain non Muslims who were hostile to Islam or that the previous verse states to make war only upon those who make war upon you, this is a false interpretation because we only need to go to Tafsir Ibn Kathir: "But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful" "Tafsir of Ibn Kathir", op cit, volume 4. First in verse 9:5, page 375 Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat (verse or passage) as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its ruling and obligations. But then on verse 9:5, page 376: So when the sacred months have passed… meaning, "Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolaters, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolaters wherever you may find them… verse 9:5, page 376 Then in verse 9:5, page 377: This honorable Ayah was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term." Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented: "No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. verse 9:5, page 377 This passage is one that is primarily offensive. It does allow for defense if pagans attack the Muslims during the time of the treaty or sacred months, beyond that, it calls for offensive aggression against pagans if they attempted to exercise freedom of religion and to remain non-Muslim. This is not a difficult passage to understand. Attack and kill the pagans, if they repent and become Muslims, leave them alone. Clearly, this passage calls for compulsion to Islam, claims otherwise are just plain dishonest.

Nope Christians are not under the Mosiac law according to the words of Jesus, it was a revelation for the children of Israel which is fulfilled by the covenant of Jesus Christ. When the Jews accused Jesus of changing the law he said he came to fufill and complete the law: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Violence in the Quran however is required and commanded in order to be a good Muslim. We don't follow the actions of previous prophets, only Jesus when came down during the incarnation to follow is the only person we are to follow. God's laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled by the New Testament, Quran commands Muslims to subjugate non believers, they will convert to Islam, pay the Jizyah in humiliation, or die. Jesus never said this during his time on Earth.

Nice try but unlike Muslims who are commanded to follow violence, were not under Mosiac law which is the law the Jews follow. So you can quote anything you like from the Old Testament, we Christians don't believe in it.

My religion commands me to speak against false faiths, it would be blasphemy not to say anything. Can you name me a different Nicene creed, there's only one Nicene creed for all sects. The Shia and Sunni shahada isn't the same. If I criticize Islam doesn't make me anti Muslim neither does criticizing Jews make me an anti Semite. We all have one Bible you have more then four different Qurans. Books of the Bible depend on Church writings it never will change the meaning of the Bible nor its verse. Agreeing if we can make statues or not has nothing to do with basic understanding of the faith, in basic components of the faith we all agree on the same creed: We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; of the same essence as the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and was made human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen. Now let's look at the Shahada which is one of the most important parts of the Islamic faith and belief in it is the only way to get to heaven: Sunni Shahada: لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله Shia Shahada: لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله وعليٌ وليُّ الله If you cannot agree on basic understanding of the faith with each other then your faith is a lie plain and simple.

All Muslims lie not just Shias, I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've exposed Muslims doing Dawah. If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harboring inner animosity for them. … Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers — except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them. Jami' al-Bayan 'an ta'wil ayi'l-Qur'an al-Ma'ruf: Tafsir at-Tabari Abu Ja'far Muhammad at-Tabari, Beirut: Dar Ihya' at-Turath al-'Arabi, 2001 (vol. 3, p. 267) (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them. Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection. The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers Tafsir Ibn Kathir Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible(N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression..." Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (p. 745, r8.2) If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harboring inner animosity for them. … Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers — except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them. Jami' al-Bayan 'an ta'wil ayi'l-Qur'an al-Ma'ruf: Tafsir at-Tabari Abu Ja'far Muhammad at-Tabari, Beirut: Dar Ihya' at-Turath al-'Arabi, 2001 (vol. 3, p. 267) Now here's what my religion says about hypocrites and liars: Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. John 4:20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. Notice the difference?

In Islam there's no way of determining what's true, why do you think Shias and Sunnis are still killing each other? There have never been actual councils or gatherings in history where all Islamic sects came together and decided on what's true and what isn't from the Quran and Sunnah, unlike Christianity.

Since you mentioned Tawhid I will mention one event which until now shakes the very foundations of Islam the satanic verses, Mohammed according to all the great and ancient scholars of Islam (Al Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Saad, Waqidi, Bukhari, and many more) preached that Allat, Manat and Al Uzza pagan goddess could intercede on behalf of Allah and as soon as Mohammeds pagan enemies heard this they reconciled with him for a brief while and prostrated with him. But as soon as Mohammed revealed this revelation Jebreil (Gabriel) came down and told Mohammed that he had made a grave mistake and Mohammed now corrected his earlier revelation by condemning the polytheism of his people. Many Muslims will say this is a fake account but let's go to the Quran don't Muslims always bring us the challenge to produce something like the Quran well no need to because if this is a fabricated event then that means someone was able to conjure up a false Quranic Surah which would technically mean Allah lied since he said no one can make something like the Quran. So Muslims will either have to choose one of the following: 1. Mohammed said the satanic verses and Islam is false since it kind of destroys the whole concept of Tawhid in Islam. 2. Mohammed did not say this and this is fabricated and the Quran is false since Allah lied when he said no one can produce something like the Quran So clearly we can conclude Muslims have no way out of this argument. PS sorry for the long piece of writing tried to shorten it as much as possible.

We all believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirirt, explain to me how Christianity's own history betrays it, Islam's does and I can prove it. The Bible is the inspired word for God that records history so please stop lying. Tawhid isn't clear with Muslims can I pray to Imams, can I visit graves, does Allah have eyes and feet? Most Muslims in the world believe in blind faith so your not unique yourself. The Nicene creed is shared by all Christians it doesn't vary between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox sects. Tawhid on the other hand varies between any Muslim sect you visit.

Opinion isn't a fact, it's a fact Islam's own history betrays it, and this a fact that Muslims cannot reconcile the concept of Tawhid with each other.

There's no such thing as mainstream Muslims, Sunnis making the majority doesn't mean mainstream Muslims don't believe the dead intercede, I've seen plenty of Sufis who are Sunni also believe in tawasul and intercession, so it's not unique to Shias.

They still pray to Allah they just ask Ali to pray for them.

Moses was commanded by God to make images of the Cherubim, we are strictly forbidden to make graven images which is when I think the image has some divine power of its own. Protestants and Catholics all have the same trinity only difference comes in traditions and understanding of the faith and interpretation of the Bible, with Sunnis and Shias you cannot even agree on how Tawheen works or wheather Allah is above his throne or not.

Its not idolatry since we don't believe the statues and icons are capable of doing anything on their own. Shias are not praying to Ali they ask Ali to pray for them, the proof that both Sunnis and Shias can't get their Tawhid defined in a single way, both Sunnis and Shias will both find Hadiths to back up each of their beliefs.

Catholics are Christians they don't go against the Bible, they just have differing opinions on traditions with Protestants.

Shias are Muslims they believe in the shadda la ilah ila Allah wa Muhammed rasul Allah, and according to Mohammed himself anyone who says these words is a Muslim. Funny how you Muslims try to declare each other as nonbelievers when you see how you both contradict each other, but both Shias and Sunnis are Muslims, the fault is in your faith which is contradictory not with each other.

The Bible is the inspired word of God that records history. The answer is quite clear so please stop playing games. You've not answered a single of my questions.

Bronze Age traditions, the Bible isn't teaching Bronze Age traditions, the Bible is inspired by God in the sense it records the history of the prophets and the traditions of the Jews at the time.

Abraham wasn't created like Adam he only was born physically in the world however it's clear according to his own words he already was in existence prior to the incarnation. John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

You can research it, but see how you Muslims lie.

Christianity had no contact with the Indian subcontinent until a few centuries ago, not to mention Hinduism is an umbrella term for various beliefs and cults of the Indian subcontinent there's no actual religion called Hinduism with defined doctrines, so there practically nothing to really copy from. Religions such as Hinduism and Bhuddism are all about reaching self enlightenment, while Christianity focuses on the next life not this artificial, temporary world. Also you didn't reply to my statement see how you Muslims lie.