Heleadethme

On 4/23/2022 at 7:26 PM, Michael37 said:

Better give surrounding verses:

John 1:6-14  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  (7)  This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.  (8)  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.  (9)  That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.  (10)  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.  

(11)  He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.  

(12)  But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13)  who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  (14)  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is something of a puzzle.

Yes, it truly is a mystery.  Jesus said no-one after tasting the old wine straight-way desires the new wine......this is why the new covenant had to be poured into new wineskins (Gentiles) who would afterwards bring the gospel to Jews. 

Rom 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:31-33

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

12 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Well done on that score, Marathoner.

From memory I think you have some knowledge of relativity and quantum physics. If so a question about the spatial and temporal location of our habitation expanse would not be too much of a stretch. 

Oh help....it would be a stretch for my brain! Do we have to go there?     https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_help.gif  lol!    

(picture of little guy unfurling his "help" banner....have to spell it out because it isn't coming up for some reason)  https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

(okay, not even a regular smile emoticom is coming up, just fugget aboud it!)

God does all things well.

On 1/22/2021 at 11:01 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thank you! Well, we can think about how or when everything was created, but it is senseless (my opinion). There is absolutely no way we could possibly understand how God created matter, space or time. He simple told us that He spoke everything into existence... He simply had to say “be” and it was ! No need for a Big Bang where things took time moving billions of light years into place. That is our mind trying to understand how it could happen given our limited knowledge and ability. It might be like an ant attempting to consider how things work- never going to happen! 

God just told everything to “be”. He told Lazarus to come forth or “be” again and he was- that was it, nothing else was needed. He told the sea to “be still”, and it was. No need to wait around for the waves to slow down or calm down- it simply was!

There was absolutely nothing that was outside of God and where He was / is. Then, He spoke and immediately, suddenly, completely everything was... including time. Nothing had to grow or travel or move billions of light years to “be” as it is ... He made it “be” and it was, and He gave everything its own characteristics and rules to obey at the same time. 

In the beginning... means trust me... don’t try to figure this out...I don’t need any scientists, or engineers or whatever! You will never need those things unless you choose to disobey me and you will have to leave me here in this place (Eden). 

Just my opinion, Charlie 

I believe He spoke the word.......and then patiently watched over His word to perform it.  (no matter how long it took)  He is the ancient of DAYS.  Very ancient.  Very, very ancient.  And very very powerful.....all power in the universe is HIS....as the bible even says.  So amazing, we can't even begin to comprehend.

In Genesis, it is written that "God said let the waters bring forth...." and "the waters brought forth.....".  And also "God said let the earth bring forth...." and "the earth brought forth.....". 

Just wanted to point that out.   That doesn't seem incompatible with a concept in principle of evolutionary development.

On 5/26/2022 at 12:43 AM, Heaven_Bound said:

Because God in Chapter Two of Genesis defines what He meant by what we read in Chapter One.

 

19 ADONAI Elohim had formed from the ground every animal of the field and every flying creature of the sky, so He brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called them—each living creature—that was its name.

 

This portion is most important:

ADONAI Elohim had formed from the ground every animal of the field and every flying creature of the sky

 

ADONAI Elohim [[had formed from the ground]]

Just like man in Verse 7 : Then ADONAI Elohim formed the man

 

So we know Man, Fowl, and Animals was FORMED by God Himself!

 

So that proves Evolution was not how God created Animals, birds, and man.  He FORMED them all the Same Way [[[from the GROUND]]]!

 

Here are some other passages where the bible uses the words "formed" and "created":  it seems those words can mean developed or grown, since these same words are used in the bible for being formed/created in the womb.....  In other words those words don't have to mean literally sculpted (out of clay/dirt) or instantaneously  created.  The word "formed" to me even seems to IMPLY a process of development or growth.

Isa 44:2

Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 44:24

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa 45:18

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isa 49:5

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Jer 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gal 4:19

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

Psa 102:18

This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

 

Isa 41:19-20

I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:

That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

 

Isa 48:6-7

Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

Eze 21:30

Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 6:31 PM, The Barbarian said:

Or the Milano mutation, that provides good protection from hardening of the arteries.  Mutations can be good or bad, but they are mostly neutral and don't do much of anything.    But they all are information.

Just to interject a thought here, that "good, bad or neutral" mutations are often relative to the environmental conditions at the time and place the creature happens to be living in.  I'm not sure that creatures including humans that have survived to our era necessarily means they are "fitter" in a general sense.  I just have not heard that discussed anywhere and thought it might be worth a mention.  It's possible I've picked up a wrong impression but I have a sense that "fittest' in an absolute kind of way is always assumed when it comes to evolution.

 

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Thanks.  I was interrupted so many times when explaining Zion, I am surprised if what I said makes any sense to anyone!

 

Hi Heleadethme.

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, it was before Zion's labour pains came to her.  Jesus was born flesh and had to mature, preach the NT, build up his fame, and the news had to spread of who he was and why he was sent.  Once the Jews started getting stirred up, I'd say Zion was only going through the Braxton Hicks!  But when Jesus' ministry was finished, and he was captured, entering into his great tribulation, you could say Zion started going into labour.  On the morning that Jesus was resurrected, Zion had finally delivered her child.
Jesus is the only one to date that has been born of Zion.  He is the firstborn of the dead.  To be truly born of Zion, one has to be in the resurrection, and that hasn't come yet.  Yes, the church was born, but that is not the same type of thing I am explaining here. 
 

 

Israel most assuredly serves as an example to the church today.  They witnessed God's power through Moses, and deliverance of their enemies.  They were also given God's instructions and laws to follow showing the difference between Good and evil practices, had God's laws recorded for them, had it taught to them down through their generations, were shown God's wrath on those that disobeyed, and after all that, still managed to be beguiled by the serpent, into doing those things they were instructed not to do.  The church is no different today, having the New Testament which contains the new laws, not as harsh, but repeating the same mistakes by not obeying God.  It all comes down to the nature of the flesh, and the flesh wanting to fulfill it's lusts, whatever it desires.  Man has been the same since the beginning, and the devil has always been there to entice us.

Look, I don't see 'the church' as standing right today before the Lord God, or else the falling away wouldn't be here.  My church is Christ, and the apostles he appointed over us to teach, and can't forget the prophets of old who God used to show us all the things to come.  That's my church.  And without Christ who gives the HS to understand, to comfort, and to show us all the things that are coming, feeding us not only the milk, but much of the hidden things, I would not understand one single bit of all this.

But we all like to think we've got the HS don't we?  So whatever we sow in this field, let it be a testament to us whether it be the spirit of truth or the spirit of error that is in us.  And let us know when to walk away, if the soil we are planting in is not fertile.

  1 Corinthians 4:5   Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

 

 

Everyone who knows the Lord has been given their measure of the Holy Spirit.  Many have not begun to learn to rely on Him though, they are still relying on man and/or self.  And even those who have been weaned from the milk of course are always still learning and being tweaked and corrected along the way.

I wouldn't necessarily argue with everything because God's word is multi-dimensional...His wisdom is manifold...and His voice is a voice of many waters....there can be different depths and heighths and breadths and lengths to what the Lord is saying prophetically...spiritual language.  (Even where Rev speaks of the "voice of many waters" is telling us more than one thing about His voice in itself.)  

I'm just going to just plunk these scriptures down, which give us insight into Israel's sorrows/labour pains in case it's helpful to anyone:

Isa 66:6-7

Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of the LORD repaying his enemies all they deserve.

“Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.

 Jer 4:30-31

And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

 Hos 13:12-13

The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

 

Now we see why Jesus spoke of sorrows/labour pains when He was warning and prophesying of Jerusalem’s judgment and the tribulations to come a few decades later:

 

Mat 24:6-8

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

So yes Israel gave birth to the Son of God, but before her labour pains, which came when she was judged by the Lord later on,  culminating in the destruction of Israel/Jerusalem and Temple in 70 AD.....fulfilling the Is. 66:6-7 prophecy of her judgment  (as also Jesus Himself was warning and prophesying of her judgment in those Matt. 24 scriptures and elsewhere....since as well as being the Messiah, He was a prophet to Israel.....I think we sometimes might not really take that into account).

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, WorthyNewsBot said:

The U.S. Justice Department pledged Sunday to investigate why police may have failed to prevent America’s deadliest school shooting in nearly a decade.

View the full article

So heartbreaking.  Whatever all the reasons are in the natural realm, it's hard not to see that America is losing her hedge of protection and favour that comes only from being under God.  Goof-ups, confusions and mistakes as well as corruption, are all things not uncommon with pagan countries...expect to see this type of thing and other judgments only increase in the west unless the nation repents from sinning and turns back to God.  

27 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Gary

I see the first part differently.  It's not speaking of the past, but of the future.  It's a prophecy. The focus here is on Zion.

Please let me explain to you who Zion is;

Zion is God's woman.  She is spoken of in so many places in the OT.  She is poetically shown as God's wife.  Depicted as a loyal woman, devoted to her husband.  Her job is to raise the children for her husband and teach them to be holy.  In reality she is God's doctrine, his teachings, his truth, his holy City.  So just as Eve came out of Adam, God's woman comes out of him.  God's doctrine comes out of him, and his doctrine glorifies him because it is truth.

Don't forget, this is all poetic.  We find it hard to understand the spiritual, so he uses a physical example to demonstrate how important this woman is to him.

Zion is from above.  She is heavenly.  Her teachings come from heaven, and all on the earth who hear God dwell in her. Dwell in his doctrine, not some other doctrine.

Israel were called to dwell in Zion also, the city of truth, and receive God's protection whilst they were under his woman, but after time, they exchanged God's woman for another mother who was not God's wife because they strayed from his teachings.  So they went their own way.

Jesus came out of Zion also.  He was born out of God's doctrine, his woman.

 John 7:16   Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jesus kept the righteousness of his Father's doctrine.  He stayed true to his mother.  The whole light of the Father and of his woman (his doctrine) is shinning on Jesus.  We know Jesus is of the Father because of the doctrine he preaches.  The sheep know his voice because of what he speaks, that unique doctrine, like no other.

Jesus came to give us the light of that kingdom...the kingdom of Zion so that we can become her children also.  At the moment, whilst we are learning the true doctrine of God, we are figuratively in Zion's womb.  After the great tribulation,... her labour pains, she will give birth to all her children at once in the resurrection.

Jesus was the first 'born' of this woman when he came back into the world the second time. His resurrection.  All who will be born of Zion are born out of that doctrine that converted them,...the doctrine of truth, and the doctrine that gives life.  They shall be born spirit this time because each and every one of them have had their hearts converted by being washed in the blood of the Lamb and for receiving that doctrine.

So when Zion gives birth, it's specifically speaking of the resurrection.  Not the remnants of Israel, not the dead being brought back to life, but the 1st resurrection of the saints.  That unique event that involves only him.

So does this make sense now?

Isaiah 66:8   Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

These of the resurrection is that nation ISRAEL.  The true Israel of God.  A new Israel.  Not the old one.  Made up of the ones who followed God's doctrine....all the way, and that doctrine had to include Christ. 

In the resurrection, this nation will be born at once. In one day, all her children shall come forth.  This is not speaking about the remnants of Israel.  Nothing to do with it, but concerning those of the resurrection.

 

Isaiah 66:9   Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

I think the meaning of the above is this;

God is speaking to Zion -  Shall I bring you all this way, into labour, then stop your children from coming out?  Am I putting you through all this for nothing?  In other words, don't give up hope, your children are coming.

 

 

Nicely said IMO, Sister.  All creation is groaning and waiting for the sons of God to be revealed. 

But I don't think we can dismiss how these OT prophecies were fulfilled already on one level concerning earthly Jerusalem/Israel...earthly Zion.  She gave birth before her labour pains came upon her (Is. 66:7)  in 70 AD, giving birth to the Son and His church body before being judged....and the early believers following Jesus' prophetic instruction about fleeing Jerusalem, came out of her and were spared the destruction/judgment to go all over the world bringing the gospel. 

And now have been wondering whether we're also looking ahead to the same  pattern of prophecy being fulfilled a second time involving the church this time, when the true faithful believers are spared the judgment of the compromised harlot church when the beast (earthly kingdom) turns on her.  Principle of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile"....?  And since Israel serves as an ensample and warning to the church.  If this is true, it's important to understand and acknowledge the first fulfillment regarding Israel if it is to effectively serve as a warning to the church.....kind of foundational for how it will be fulfilled concerning the church.  Hosea 2 = Revelation 17 .... Adulterous wife in bed with the world and its kingdoms, until the world turns against her.

(Adulterous wife is what Jesus spoke against:  serving two masters....and it was Israel's sin of "halting between two opinions" when Elijah was calling Israel to repent of trying to serve both God and Baal at the same time.  That is the lukewarm state and why the Lord would rather we even be completely 'cold' rather than being spiritually adulterous.  Friendship with the world is enmity with God.  This is so deceptive a snare and widespread in the western church now.  We all need to examine ourselves truly, and I certainly include myself.)

As far as I understand it, I think "choosing" is not quite the same thing as being willing.  All we brought to the table was willingness when God came calling.  And He often paves the way through life circumstances that help us to become willing.  David prayed for "a willing spirit".   When the Lord comes to us we can either resist the Spirit or yield to Him (being willing to believe/receive/obey Him).  I think it was to  the Jewish religious leaders (or the Pharisees?) that Jesus said, "Ye do always resist the spirit."

I might be willing to suffer for His name, if it were to come to me in the will of the Lord, but that doesn't mean I would generally deliberately go out and choose circumstances that make me suffer on purpose.  Willingness is passive, it's a yielding, whereas choosing is active.  And when you think about it, how could a lost soul really "choose" Jesus unless they first knew Him?

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Your opinion contradicts scripture.  Daniel 7:23 and Revelation 13:5-8

There will be a One World Govt and a man under Satan's control will rule the world as dictator for the final 3 1/2 years of this age.  But those who keep their faith in Jesus, will be taken to a place of safety for that time. Revelation 12:13-14

Well I would agree my opinion contradicts how a lot of people are interpreting scripture, and I thought along the same lines not long ago as well. 

But looking at Daniel 7, hasn't the fourth beast already come and gone...Rome?  It's a matter of historical record that it has.  Wasn't Jesus already presented to the Father after He ascended to heaven and received back the glory that He had before the world began....during the time of that fourth beast reigning?  And didn't the saints already receive the kingdom at that time too...."it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom"....."the kingdom comes not with your careful observation".....as we are more than conquerors (victors) through Christ and go from strength to strength, from glory to glory....."behold I give you power...over all the power of the enemy".   These things are by faith not by sight. 

Satan was defeated at the cross and dominion wrested from him and restored to Christ and His church back in the first century, and makes sense that it was fully and officially accomplished when the old covenant system of Temple worship passed away with finality in 70 AD.   Worth considering whether that was when Jesus was officially crowed and came to receive His kingdom/dominion officially, so to speak, visiting with His wrath/judgment upon what had sadly and horrifically become corrupt and decaying...Jerusalem/Israel and Temple of that time.  Her judgment had been prophesied to happen....OT prophets and Jesus Himself prophesied and warned of it.  And fulfilling also where scripture says, that Israel gave birth to the Messiah before her labour pangs came upon her.

Daniel was surely prophesying of the coming Messiah and His gospel and kingdom, as all the prophets and all of the OT was foretelling and looking ahead to.  The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.  There is nothing greater......I think the modern church has lost the sense that THAT was the climax of all scripture and all of history.  Nothing less than the mystery of God from the foundation of the world!

I know there are many who believe they have Revelation all wrapped up and tied with a bow, but one thing I've learned about the Lord over the years is that there are things He likes to reserve for Himself and surprise us with....like He reserves the right to be God......so things don't always go according to the way we think and imagine (carnal mind).   Wouldn't hurt to reserve judgment about some of these things in Revelation especially, and wait upon the Lord.  Anyway those are my thoughts.

On 5/24/2022 at 1:16 PM, Heaven_Bound said:

When we think of the Bible Writers, we see 1st Temple views, 1st through 2nd Temple views, 2nd Temple views, and the Gospel views of 1st Century.

 

We have Israel as slaves in a few scenarios, we have Israel killing Nations [related to Nephilim], we have Israel suffering a lot of the times.   We have outside forces of other Nations like Babylon who controlled everything, Greece, Rome.   They just never used the term [ONE WORLD] even though the evidence proves it existed.   This is why Revelation 13 is relevant.

 

Just because a Term is not specifically used does not mean we don't see it throughout the entire Bible. Babel was One World and God divided them.   One World clearly exists and is proven throughout Scripture.   It's just never addressed as One World.   But, that is giving the OP a Loophole for this Thread.   But One World clearly exists in the Past and is referenced towards the Future.

The bible does refer to the god of this world, the spirit of this world, and the kingdom of darkness.  All the divers earthly kingdoms have been serving it ever since the fall of man.....and at various times throughout history one earthly kingdom happens to be the top dog of them all, having the most power, wealth and influence than the others.  Eg, Babylon, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, Great Britain, and now the USA in our current era.

What people are envisioning with terms like New World Order and One World Government is very specific.  They are envisioning a specific scenario that may or may not ever come to fruition.  Specifically they are envisioning a tyrant (the beast) who rules the entire globe by force.   In my opinion there are reasons why we might question this scenario.   

On 4/14/2022 at 7:00 AM, ~Shalhevet~ said:

When Jesus celebrated Passover with the disciples do you think he meant to replace the annual Passover with weekly holy communion?  Why or why not?  

Just coming into this thread and haven't caught up with what others are saying.

I think it would be good to ask,  Does the new covenant replace the old covenant?  Because Jesus said at Passover that the cup they were drinking was the cup of the new covenant of His shed bloood, and that the bread was his body given for us.

(And He only said "as oft as ye do this"......He didn't specify or command any special day or weekly or annually, etc.)

Passover necessitates the sacrifice of lambs every year, even if you are only using a shank bone.......whereas the Lamb of God has already been sacrificed once and for all and communion is a re-membrance of that.

So very sad, and mass shootings becoming more frequent.  People need the Lord, He is the only answer.  We need to really pray for God to move.  That the light of the gospel would shine in the darkness.  For lost souls to be saved, and that holiness would be restored to the backslidden and those who are captive under false gospels.  God has to send chastisements to wake us up, unfortunately. 

This happened to come to my inbox this morning:

14 hours ago, Starise said:

The Bible teaches all saved men will be judged for all things done in the body, both good and bad. This judgement will not determine salvation since we are already saved. The lost will stand in a separate judgement. 

Some men will be saved "as by fire".They did little or nothing however they are still saved. Others will receive great rewards.

Responsibilities, rewards and positions in heaven will be determined by this judgement.Some men will judge angels.

A lost man cannot be prayed into heaven after he dies. Neither can a saved man be taken from God's hand.

The question then is, what are we doing with that was given to us? 

Remember the parable of the talents. One man hid the only talent he had.Another man invested and multiplied what was given to him.The Lord was displeased with the man who hid his only talent.

The fields are white for the harvest. It is the evil ones who want us to think we don't have a chance to aid in bringing the word to the lost and to reap a great harvest of souls.

 

Yes....the parable of the talents where the Lord warns that even the little someone has could be taken away from them.  I have a sense from scripture that salvation is not something we're to take for granted.  We aren't to just sit around relaxing on our laurels.  We're told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  We're admonished to run the race so as to win it, and that those who strive for the mastery are not crowned except they run lawfully. There are those to whom Jesus will say, "Away from me you who practice lawlessness" even though they were doing works for God.  Fruitless tree being cut down, etc.  Lots of things in the word to spur us on and keep us from falling asleep at the wheel.

15 hours ago, Sower said:

If you don't mind my asking, from a fellow escapee, how did you come to know about the amazing grace of the gospel. Did you drift away from discontent, or did a faithful Christian sow a seed into your soil?

My wife and I 40+ yrs ago were at a baptist funeral for our next door neighbor's 13 yr old son when the pastor giving the parting prayer said little Jimmy was in heaven because he was saved, a child of God. And anyone who expects to go to heaven needs to be saved, born again. The seed was sown! Matured, and blossomed.
I heard His voice!

 

 

By the time I was in my late teens my family was only attending Mass on special occasions, which suited me fine and I didn't bother with it at all once I finished high school.  But in my late twenties the Lord out of the blue gave me a desire to go to church one day at Easter time, didn't know why I had that desire, I thought it was strange because I was agnostic at the time.  And I had a definite 'instinct' not to go to a Catholic church knowing there was nothing real there for me...so I called up an uncle and aunt of mine who were born again believers and had witnessed to me and asked if I could accompany them to their church (happened to be Brethren in Christ).  It happened that they were holding a gospel preaching 'crusade' that Easter season, and long story short, the Lord got hold of me and revealed Himself and the gospel in a miraculous way and put me in the path of righteousness.  Hardly stopped crying with joy for a solid week, I was so happy there was a God after all, and that I knew Him.  I did leave that church after a while though because they were cessationist and I knew that what God had done in me was a series of miracles including deliverance from nicotine addiction, and that He still does miracles today according to His word, however, was so grateful to be saved and to know Jesus!

"Let us therefore go to Him OUTSIDE THE CAMP, BEARING HIS REPROACH" seems to be kind of a theme with me for many years.  I have nowhere to lay my head, so to speak, no where on this earth to call home spiritually.  Like Abraham, seeking the city that is above.   The Lord led me out of the churches and called me to "come out of her" and more recently has shown me that His will for His church (people) is the simplicity of Christ, which I keep trumpeting now and then like a broken record.    That necessitates firstly a change of heart, because religious-ness comes from the flesh and mind of man......all the usual stuff....ambition, control, seeking to establish our own righteousness instead of submitting to the righteousness of Christ, outward appearances of things, etc.

The scriptures say "except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain."  He only builds on His own foundation of Christ....which includes His simplicity.  How did Jesus do things when He was on earth?  He SIMPLY went around doing good and preaching the good news with SIGNS ACCOMPANYING.......no special robes, no special rituals, no special titles, no special building, etc., just real life with the Holy Spirit.  "Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst."  So simple...and all the various parts/ members of the body of Christ simply functioning in their gifts, as the Lord leads.  "When you come together, every one of you hath......." whatever spiritual gift the Lord gives to each one and leads us to share.   He is only Head of His church when He is leading it by His Spirit.  Not the way man-made churches do things with men usurping the Headship of Christ.  There is to be no schism in the Body...no division between so called clergy and so called laity.... all just have different gifts that's all.

Better stop there, I'm going on a bit long.

 

10 minutes ago, Sower said:

I fully understand, and that is why I always preface the start of a discussion on the RCC that, 1st, I love all catholics, my mom and siblings, and most of my relatives and many friends are catholic, and they are still unable to shake off the tentacles of their holy mother church. Why would I not have a vengeance against catholic false doctrine.
It is the hierarchic dogma, that changes every hundred years or so  to suit the reigning popo that I war against, and not the flock. I have troubling concern towards anyone defending RCC anti biblical truth. But I love them, because I was there, once upon a time.

I really enjoyed your cool post, Heleadethme...

Amen.  Me too.  I was raised in Catholicism but never heard the gospel preached there....salvation by faith, the need to be born again, Jesus dying to atone for our sins, etc.  Sadly just a deadness in the Catholic churches I've been in.  Most are not born again, their belief is just a mental belief, it isn't the faith of Christ that is not of our own.....they are lost souls, and many are antagonistic against the true gospel that is apart from their religion.  Yes, much of the doctrine and practices....as well as the institution itself is false, not to mention corrupt.  Well, it has always been about "whosoever will" and I'm sad for those Catholics I know and only desire that they would know Christ for real.

31 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

You have misunderstood the point I made...this is how people are led in the path of their own assumptions, by profiling and stereotyping the contributor...instant of paying attention to what he is trying to convey, they want to profile him and fit him in some group then they erroneously believe that he represents the group they have stereotyping him with...

They do not discuss the issues independent from stereotyping. They need to profile someone and they end up talking with the person they have manufacture in their minds.

The questions they asked are meant to help them in their stereotyping..

You can asked me any questions about the subject at hand.

One of them is : are protestants who believe that for someone to be saved from his sins, he needs to die without any sin, or he needs to have all his sins forgiven before he dies.

And what Jesus Christ will do if this not the case. 

What he is going to do with the who dies with unforgiven sins. Or with not all his sins having been forgiven before he dies. 

Well, all I know is I've been watching people being pre-judged with assumptions apparently just for the fact of participating in this thread.  There are things being strangely turned upside down here.

And nobody is saying that everything Catholics believe is wrong.  I think of Catholicism as a  mixture of truth and lies sitting on a man-made foundation.

53 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Profiling and stereotyping and shorting out the contributor before we look in the contribution can result in prejudice or allowing personal preferences interfere with judgment. 

That's what you are assuming. 

It's also true that knowing someone's background is often helpful in understanding what they are saying.  But if you don't want to answer any questions being put to you, that is your perogative of course, and nobody is trying to force you.

1 hour ago, Sower said:

We all love catholics. We disagree with what they are taught.

Amen. 

And it is troubling to have others assuming and accusing the posters in this thread of harbouring prejudices against individual Catholics and assuming we would approach  individual Catholics with a nasty attitude.  It's interesting, because the truth is probably  more likely to be the other way around, in my experience anyway, sadly. 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I did not like the personal questions in more than one way. 

The members were invited to contribute to this thread.

The contributions not to be used as a fishing bate, and pass judgment on others, with the moto, if you don't joint us in speaking about   the Catholic church they way we do, then we will someone who was with us, it's not one of us because he was not one of us from the beginning. 

This is a discussion group, a discussion for discovery, to point out misinformation without prejudice to the participants.

 NO one is on trial, and we should not put anyone on the defensive mode, as this is not about the person and about them, and no one should be accused or been harassed in such way as to be put in a position to having to respond to interrogative questions, as this is not the reason or the subject of the thread...

Making comments about the person and asking personal question....think about that, without prejudice. 

You seem to be misunderstanding.  There is a fair amount of confusion on this thread and Starise was courteously trying to understand where you're coming from, that's all. 

 

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I  see Catholicism as an enemy to true Christianity and as such, it needs to be brought to light.

Yes there are divisions in the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox and so forth. I don't see them varying a lot in their core beliefs. This isn't to say there aren't believers in the Catholic church either, yet that isn't the jist of the discussion which was Catholic .vs Christian. 

The discussion is about CATHOLICISM .vs CHRISTIAN and when we take it down to the nitty gritty CATHOLICISM is in direct rebellion to the Scriptures in many areas.

Some here want to bring people into this. Almost as if we are picking on individuals. No. We are looking at what Catholics teach. To look at a teaching compared to scripture should be no disservice to anyone.

While I agree with @Marathoner that God reaches out to us not using religion, religion is what we are evaluating and so we should feel no guilt in evaluating it.

And I'll admit I am confused with some of the comments. Some here say they are not Catholic, yet are staunchly defending them as if they are Catholic  and even have plans to attend a Catholic church.

I don't think it's fair to accuse persons who have been Catholics for 30 years or more of ignorance of the Catholic faith or belief systems. 

Basically I see contradictions all over the place here. How can you be not for something but not against it?

I hear you.  And now here's me getting some things of my chest:

CatholicISM is not of God and leads many souls astray.  If that offends anyone here, they don't have to participate in this thread if they don't want to.  We are certainly free to discuss this or any subject as that is what forums are for.  Instead of pointing out the errors and dangers of the Catholic belief system, for the benefit of those reading or participating, this thread has become about chastising and accusing those who are trying to point them out.

Jesus said to think not that He came to bring peace on the earth but a sword.

Elsewhere scripture says to turn away from those who have a form of Godliness but deny the power. 

Also says those who have not the Spirit of God are none of His. 

Which brings us to where the inspired word of God says to be not unequally yoked with unbelievers...but to come out from among them to be received by Him.

One would think that efforts to return to or remain according to the plumbline of God's word in our faith and walk ought to be helped, not opposed.  It's murky and puzzling as to where some folks stand.  We're either on the side of the truth or we're not.  GOD is not the author of confusion, and I hope I'm mistaken, but to me it seems as though efforts are being made to throw sand in our faces on this subject.

 If anyone wants to start a thread pointing out the errors with Protestantism or Protestant Evangelism, they are free to do so, and I probably would contribute to it too, Lord permitting, but that isn't what this particular thread happens to be about.  And I want to say also that neither is this some sort of competition between Catholicism or Protestantism as some seemed to be trying to frame it. 

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

That sounds like someone took an old teaching a step further. Men do such things to round folks up.

I encountered a group that saw the church as militant and the idea was to bring in the kingdom. That one started with a group or movement out of California in the 70’s called ‘The Walk’. The leader of that group and his wife and followers joined up with the leaders of another group called ‘The Move’. These things never end well.

I knew these men.

Wow I didn't know that....had never heard of it before in evangelical circles.  But it all sounds like the same thinking behind the "Crusades" of the middle ages.  It's not the Way that Jesus taught and demonstrated...and doesn't come from HIS Spirit. 

Do we still have fellowship with believers or groups who are on that path?  I just don't see how.  It's not the gospel that Jesus and the apostles brought.

49 minutes ago, Alive said:

When asking a question such as this, it is very difficult for many to not appeal to a construct, rather than strictly clear scriptural references.

I think this is what it means because of………take your pick.

 

Amen.  Especially when it comes to trying to resolve apparent contradictions in scripture...making things up ourselves to try and resolve them.  We need to bring our thoughts CAPTIVE to the word of God and not go beyond what is written.  We can only stand on solid ground, not "kinda-sorta-maybe" scenarios.  It's far better to remain in a state of not understanding and wait on the Lord as long as it takes for Him to give us the understanding.