GandalfTheWise

On 11/1/2020 at 5:36 AM, Tyler22 said:

Hi.... over the past two months i dont know what happened.... i was on fire for Gods word back in june...... and now its completely gone... and i mean completely ..... and i have no idea why.... help?

There are a number of possibilities.  Here's one.   We are all different and what works best for each of us can be different.

I had one pastor whose devotional Bible reading time looked like this.  He'd wake up in the morning, make a cup of coffee, grab his "One Year Bible" (which has daily reading passages to cover the Bible in a year), read the day's passages, and then pray over them.  He's done that for decades and it's worked well for him.

I'm a person who goes through seasons in life where I can throw myself into something for awhile and then need to do something else.  There was one period of three months where I read the Bible through once per month.  During the 4th month, I just crashed and burned and just couldn't read much anymore.  I spent months trying to get back into that once a month routine and couldn't.  What I failed to see is that I had gotten a lot out of that three months, but then I needed to find something different that worked and helped me grow in other areas.  I now realize I go through seasons where I can throw myself into something and get a lot out of it for a time.  Then I hit a point where I simply don't get as much out of it and need to do something else.   Sometimes my Bible reading has looked like reading extensive sections to go through the entire Bible.  Sometimes it has been spending a month or more reading and intensely studying a single book.   At one time, it was reading the Bible through in Greek.  Now, it's spending a lot of time on a few particular passages slowly learning Hebrew.

Sometimes people burn out and find Bible reading (and other things like prayer) hard to do because they haven't figured out what works best for them.  

33 minutes ago, keet said:

Thanks for the post!  It sounds like you think that two main concerns that Christians have are what they should be or become, and what they should do or practice/acquire as skills to further God's kingdom.

Regarding the end of your second paragraph... Especially as Westerners, many Christians are a bit obsessed with finding systematic and detailed understandings of God's revelation and activity.  Being creatures of a rational God who acts and creates in an orderly, rational fashion, it makes sense that we would want to do this.  At the same time, it is possible to go overboard with trying to define a system or framework of God's revelation and activity, when we are really meant to experience and contribute to it (not that they are necessarily mutually exclusive, but we do have limited time and mental capacity on this earth).

So in a way, yes (if I'm understanding you at least partially correctly), some Christians might spend inordinate amounts of time trying to explain and rationally, systematically analyze God's activity instead of finding ways to actually improve themselves in practical ways and share the gospel.

You caught my meaning with regard to the point of rational explanations being overemphasized in importance compared to that God is really doing something.  As a practical matter in my life, I spent the first few decades of my life as a Christian seeking out doctrinally correct (in my view) Christians  and churches to be part of.  The last few decades I've been more concerned with seeking out Christians and churches where the fruit of the Spirit is obvious and growing because it is clear those are people and places God is actually doing things and spiritual growth is occurring.   

My other point is more subtle.   It is a question of whether our value to God comes from who He created us to be or from what tasks we do for Him.    Do we see ourselves by our gifts or callings which are largely defined around church and denominational organization, functions, and offices?  Or do we see ourselves as a unique individual created to reflect God's glory in a unique way?    The difference is which of these questions ( "Who did God create you to be?" or "What does God want you to do?") we spend more time trying to answer.  In our western world, we tend to see ourselves and others as having value based on how much we can contribute and do rather than having value based on being a unique work of art by God to show His glory to the world.  I spent the first 30 or so years of my Christian walk basically burning myself out being busy serving God.  My identity had become so tied into my gifts, talents, and activities that I really didn't know who I was.  I saw my only value in what things I could do.  God put me out into a figurative desert for a year or so away from everything, put me in front of a figurative mirror, and kept me there until I started to see myself as the unique individual He created me to be.  As I emerged from that desert, I found that ministry and everything else in life just started to naturally flow.  

When I was much younger, there were things that God laid on my heart for my life.  I saw them as goals and directions for my life that I needed to work and aspire towards, and to potentially fall short of if I failed to follow God enough.  Over time, I gradually gave up on them, and started to settle, and forgot about them.  I recall sitting in church one day with a sermon about Moses' call in the desert.  I'd never much related to Moses but during that time, I was ignoring the sermon and reading that passage.  I finally felt like I knew why Moses told God to send someone else.  He was an old man who'd tried and failed and had given up on himself.  I'd always seen Moses' 40 years in the desert as punishment and consequences for his failures.  I now see it as something different.  God didn't want Moses to be another Pharaoh-like leader or Egyptian military leader which is what he was trained and raised for.  He wanted Moses to be a leader and prophet for a nation of shepherds who were more comfortable in the country than in wealthy cities.  That 40 years was necessary to change Moses from a wealthy elite leader more at home in the city into a simple shepherd who could feed himself and live in the wilderness.  The 40 years wasn't punishment but rather a necessary time of transformation into the person God meant for Moses to be.  During this time, God reminded me of those things He'd laid on my heart about 30 years previously.  I realized they were not goals to make myself worthy for but rather promises of what God planned to do as I was transformed into the person He created me to be.   

Anyway, a long response, but trying to illustrate my second point of the difference between "who am I?" versus "what should I be doing?"

I distinguish two different realms of things.  The first are the very real changes and transformation that God is doing in us as we spiritually grow.  The second are the things we decide to do because of what we believe.

I've been observing a lot of Christians in a wide variety of ministries, churches, and denominations for about half a century.  The work God does in all Christians is remarkably similar as is the general pattern of growth I've seen though external appearances can make this seem very different.  The biggest difference I see is that Christians argue about what explanations are most correct to describe what God does.  In that,  most things Christians argue about don't matter though most Christians are convinced that they do.

I think the biggest practical difference comes from whether a Christian believes that our life is meant to be spent figuring out what God wants us to do versus who God wants us to become.   The first concern themselves with discerning God's will of what activities and things to do and believe.  The first tend to see themselves as defined by the gifts, talents, experiences, etc. in their lives and to be busy using those things and worrying about what to think and believe about things.  The second concern themselves with becoming the unique person God created them to be to show His glory to the world through them.  Their focus is on growing into the person God created them to be.  For them, gifts, talents, experience, etc. are merely tools to be used to show the world God's glory in a way unique to them.

A couple years ago, this site became extremely dysfunctional due to a handful of people (now permanently banned) who took it upon themselves to expose anyone and everyone that they believed was a wolf or heretic and well as to go after anyone who dared question them.  About 35 to 40 years ago, I was such a heretic-hunter myself so I fully understand the zeal, passion, and intensity such Christians have for defending the Truth and protecting the flock.  I also understand the delusion the enemy uses so that such heretic-hunters become so obsessed with rooting out problems that they start to believe most accusations they hear without regard to context or further investigation.  

Searching out errors and heresies and exposing them is addicting.  I know it well and had started to become obsessed with it.  What stopped my rush to madness was when a brother in Christ simply handed me a short booklet from a preacher I was condemning.  I'd been reading material about how the New Age movement was infiltrating the church.  During a Sunday School class, I made some disparaging comments about how a particular radio preacher was in error and misleading people.  The next week, someone in the class brought me a booklet from that preacher and just asked me to read it to see what I thought.  I enthusiastically started reading to find all the errors I'd been condemning.  What I read absolutely shocked me.  The materials I was reading about the New Age in the church had quoted from that very booklet.  I found that literally every quotation from that booklet was taken out of context.  I also found that the accuser accused this preacher of saying things that he specifically spoke out against in that very booklet in the next paragraph after one of the quotes.  I originally thought the accuser might have just made some mistakes or been sloppy so I got hold of a couple other books he quoted and attacked.  I learned that was his pattern.  He'd grab quotes out of context, make the assumption that the person he was attacking was hiding something, and then "interpret" what they said to prove they were a wolf.  In other words, he'd find a target, scour their writings and sermons for individual sentences to take out of context to "prove" they were spreading heresy and occultism.   I have little doubt that the accuser was sincere in his belief that his targets were unintentionally deluded and that he was sincerely ministering to them by publicly exposing their delusion.  However, good motives and sincerity do not make false accusations true.  

Another experience that lead me to realize I needed to really understand the big picture in any ministry was shortly after the PTL Club (the Bakkers) debacle.  I was teaching a Sunday school class and had soundly derided them and others for putting money ahead of the gospel and doing damage to many people.  After the class, our pastor came up to me and gently  told me about one person who was sitting in my class (and who never came back again).  He'd been a prayer counselor at PTL ministries for a few years both on the phone and for campers and visitors.  He'd been involved in a lot of effective ministry there and had a lot of good relationships with other ministers there.  When the arrests came down and everything was shut down, he and other counselors and ministers there were absolutely devastated by what had happened.   They not only lost their individual ministries there but suddenly had to all leave with no warning.  This was in the days of fixed landline numbers for phones and little e-mail so most of them lost touch with each other as they had to move.   I'd publicly dismissed and disparaged all the very real ministry that had quietly been going on outside of the public view.

A few years ago, when things got out of hand on this site, I started doing fact checking and research on various things and confronting a few things that probably legally fit the definition of libel (which includes not being true).  I found the same thing that had deluded me into being a heretic-hunter decades ago.  There are a number of websites and authors that basically do the same thing I saw decades ago.  The thing is that these accusers are passionate and compelling.  They present reams of supposed research that is little more than scouring books, sermons, articles, videos, and materials from their targets.  They properly "interpret" and selectively edit what they find to prove that their target is not a Christian and needs to be publicly exposed.  Once they've "proved" someone is a heretic, they move onto anyone that person has quoted or that has quoted that person to prove they are also heretics.   They then come up with inside jargon to label these people with various types of heresies.  "Oh, so and so?  They are an XYZ heretic."  They rarely look in detail to see what type of day to day ministry is really going on.

My first exposure to Bethel was when a few Christians I knew went out to Redding for some ministry training.  The big thing they brought back was a ministry of praying for people as they had opportunity to and God lead them.  Over the next months, if they thought God was leading them, they'd ask if they could pray for sales clerks in stores, waiters and waitresses, people they were sitting next to in a bus, etc.  By and large, the response from people was positive.  Many would share about struggles in their life.  A few talked about  things they'd never told anyone else.   Some had just had something serious happen in their life and were starting to ponder deep questions in life.  Some of these encounters resulted in answered prayers for specific things including a few healings.  Some encounters lead to the gospel being shared.  I suspect that type of thing probably is more reflective of what goes on there on a daily basis compared to questionable antics at times or a few individuals doing questionable things.

It's easy to look at questionable things and rush to absolute judgement.  It's a lot harder to really dig in to figure out what is really going on most of the the time.  Every ministry has flaws, warts, errors, and problems.  Every ministry has critics that rejoice in finding things to publicly and loudly disparage.  The key issue is whether or not most of the Christians involved in a ministry are spiritually growing.  I think what is going on in the day to day ministry in the masses of a church or ministry is the real test of what they are about.   All of us go through phases as Christians that we are later embarrassed about.  I'm embarrassed about my heretic-hunter days.  One of the most influential pastors I had got heavily involved in the "name-it claim-it" movement when he was a teen.  He prayed that God would heal his near-sightedness and smashed his glasses with a hammer to prove his faith.  It was a bit humbling when his non-Christian father had to buy him new glasses later.  Most Christians, ministries, and churches I've known have gone through immature phases like that as they are spiritually growing and sincerely done dumb and embarrassing things.  Those phases don't define us nor does God leave us alone to remain immature.  It is our long-term spiritual growth and transformation that is what really matters.

I've been a Christian for about 45 years now, and have spent a lot of time (meaning years each) in a wide variety of  ministries and churches with a wide range of view points on various matters and I've known a lot of Christians with a wide range of views on things.  There's one thing that is pretty common in a lot of groups but I hardly ever hear anyone talk about it except to criticize it in others.   I've seen this in many forms over decades and pretty much fell head over heels for it myself at various times in different ways.

Many Christians make an idol of their zeal for certain things.   They then become unbalanced because their zeal takes them in unhealthy directions.  Usually God will spiritual thump them upside the head in some way to get their attention and restore balance, but some will go for quite awhile before they notice it.  Many Christians go through phases where they believe their sincerity and zeal and passion gives them a pass to do stupid things that are obvious to other Christians watching them.

Many charismatics and pentecostals (two distinct groups) are zealous to see God do miracles like they read about in the Bible.  They want to see mass revivals.  They want see people healed.   They want to see God do tangible things in people's lives.   They want to see people become Christians.  This is not a personal glory seeking thing but true sincerity to see individual Christians grow and the church grow and God be glorified.  As this zeal becomes an idol, it can lead to questionable practices and behavior.  They gravitate toward others Christians who feel the same.   At its worst, they'll imagine God is doing things that He is not.

Some Christians make an idol of zeal for polemics (which is defending the gospel and church against wolves and false teachers).   They are sincere about preventing spiritual error and problems.  They are sincere about exposing darkness.  However, as zeal for this becomes an idol, they start to imagine problems where none exist. They start to assume the worst about individual Christians or ministries or churches with minimal evidence and blind acceptance of accusations.  They start to be consumed with looking for what other Christians are doing wrong to condemn them and avoid them rather than looking for what they are doing right to learn from.  They gravitate toward other Christians who feel the same.  At its worst, they come to believe they are among the chosen few still true to God and that it is more important to expose error than build relationships with other Christians.

I've often seen zeal for particular things slowly become an idol for many Christians.  Some have a zeal for true doctrine and end up spending all their time arguing and unable to in good conscience fellowship with other Christians over particular matters.   Some will develop a zeal for a particular ministry that becomes an idol to them over time.  Some will develop a zeal for political activity that becomes an idol.  It's not that zeal is a bad thing.    It's when our sincerity, zeal, and good motives prevent us from seeing that we have become unbalanced spiritually and are becoming a disruption to other Christians.  Ultimately, it's when something we are doing for God becomes more important to us than knowing God Himself.

1 hour ago, Aimes said:

Hey Gandalf - so good to see you brother!! 

   A bit too much solitude due to COVID.  I need some interaction so I decided to hang out again.  Good to see people here too.

On 11/10/2020 at 12:45 PM, Henry_iain said:

tomorrow is Armistice day so:

 - Is also known as remembrance day or poppy day.

- observed on 11 November commemorating the end of WW1. 

- On the 11th hour (11:00am) of the 11th day of the 11th month, the war was officially ended.

- it is customary to observe a 2 minute silence 

- in South Africa, it is held on the nearest Sunday; a bugler plays: "the Last Post" followed by 2 minutes of silence. Some schools host services to honour those who died in both World Wars.  

Let us never forget.

 

Back in high school, I played trumpet and would occasionally play Taps at the cemetery for the local American Legion for military funerals.  I recall one time was during the summer when I was out doing field work.  I brought my trumpet along, worked out on the tractor until I saw the cars arrive.  The bugler was out of sight so my appearance  (jeans, t-shirt, hat, and covered in dust) was no big deal since I was behind some lilac bushes.  I just had to wait out of sight until the honor guard fired their three volleys of shots in the air and then play Taps.

It had been a clear warm summer day.  A short time before the funeral, it clouded up.  As I saw cars arriving, I hopped off the tractor, grabbed my trumpet, and waited behind the bushes for the volleys.  As the echoes from the last volley faded, I started playing.  As I did, the clouds starting breaking, some beams of sunlight hit the cemetery, and I heard a few rumbles of distant thunder (not the volleys but actual thunder in the distance) echoing as I was playing.

After I was done, I went back in the field and the weather went back to being a clear summer day.  I didn't know anything about the veteran being interred but I think God did something special that day.  

A couple of good posts from @Starise and @Henry_iain here.

Oversimplifying things, there are two aspects to dealing with addictions.  

The first is mitigating damage from it.  In other words, take steps to limit the damage.  For example, if you are addicted to gambling, make sure someone else has control of your credit cards etc. to prevent you from spending money on it and going deeper into debt.  Passwords, internet filters, accountability, etc. are means of doing this with online porn.  This can make occurrences of bad behavior decrease but they don't eliminate the underlying cause.  

The second is dealing with the root spiritual and emotional causes of things.  This often requires some type of spiritual healing.  Sometimes the root cause is simple exposure at an impressionable age; sometimes the root cause might be related to abuse or other such things.   I've heard some testimonies where this was an instantaneous thing and I've heard others where it involved counseling and time.   The common thread in the success stories I've heard is following God's leading for dealing with root causes of things.  

I was fairly active here for a couple years.  A little over a year ago, I just felt God steering me in a different direction to spend my time writing other things.  I started a thread to let people know this was the reason I would shortly be leaving for an indefinite period of time.   I think it's a nice courtesy and a chance for a few see-ya-laters and blessings for those who've been regular posters to let everyone know what's up.

In terms of the level of civility now, it is markedly better now than it was a couple years ago.  A permanent ban of about a half dozen people a few years ago changed the entire tone of the site for the better.  They'd become a clique that seemed to view themselves as the only real defenders of the faith on the site.  If someone disagreed and didn't immediately change their mind and agree with the clique, they'd go after them like a pack of hyenas or wolves with thinly disguised personal attacks and accusations.    The truly sad thing to me is that I think they were sincere individuals for whom exhibiting clear fruit of the Spirit in their interactions took second place to running off anyone they viewed as a wolf or false teacher.   I don't know if it was just a mob mentality where they egged each other on or if it was intentional,  but the net result was their concerted attacks (often over a number of pages and dozens of posts in a thread) would put someone on the defensive until most people would eventually snap back at some point while defending themselves.   At that point, the clique would report that person and try to get them banned.  To put it bluntly, they had in practice become a gang of heretic hunting bullies.  Once someone crossed them, it seemed to me that they'd just keep going after them trying to goad them into posting something in anger to try to get them off the site.

I got on their bad side more than once, and would login to find several responses that were often more or less personal attacks as well as misrepresentations of what I'd posted.  A few times, newcomers to those threads would take what was written seriously and pile on.   Very few people can constantly face that volume of negativity and attacks without it affecting them.  I suspect many gave up and left.  Some were scared away from posting anything.  Some tried to defend themselves which just drew a series of new accusations.  Most who tried to engage with them at some point would post something out of frustration at which point the clique would more or less celebrate that they'd revealed a wolf and then report them and use their frustration as proof they were a bad person who should be gotten rid of.   Their bullying and gaslighting methodology was pretty obvious to me so I was usually able to shrug it off, but even then it takes a toll.  I had to drop out of a few threads.

During the time this was going on, I suspect a lot of people just gave up and left without saying anything.  "I've had it and I'm leaving" threads sometimes are for attention, but some are the result of frustration and trying to do something about it.    Some people do hit the point of feeling like no one wants them here.  At times when I see such a thread, I'll go back and skim that person's content for the past few weeks and see what's been going on.   Some people do just want attention, but there are others that have not been treated well and are very frustrated.

Having knowledge is knowing a series of facts.  Having understanding is knowing how various facts fit together into patterns.  Having wisdom is knowing how best to apply understanding to life. 

Knowing particular Bible verses or biblical facts is having knowledge.  Knowing theology, doctrine, and how various verses fit together is having understanding.  Having half a clue to know when and how to give effective godly advice  based on what knowledge and understanding and life experience we might have is the start to having wisdom.   Knowledge and understanding are tools for wisdom to use.  It's easy to spout knowledge and understanding (i.e. toss out Bible verses and theology) to claim authority to Truth and then blame the person we are enlightening when little comes from our efforts.  It's much more difficult to give godly counsel in an anointed manner that consistently results in positive changes in people.

Wisdom is not just something we can find or quickly learn from others.  It's something we have to practice ourselves over a lifetime to get better at it.  It's common sense (in both the physical and spiritual worlds) that grows over time from our own life experiences as well as what we learn from others.  It's a skill that grows sharper with practice over years and decades.  It only comes from years of walking with God and in community with others with an open humble heart to consistently grow and learn.

If I had to give a single piece of advice for gaining wisdom, it would be this.  Read and listen to many many testimonies of what God has done in a wide wide range of different people's lives in many different situations and places and churches and denominations to learn from the many different ways God works in people.  At its core, wisdom is based on having an intimate familiarity with God Himself and how He works in people's lives.

A number of years ago we picked up a small telescope.  Seeing the 4 large moons of Jupiter and Saturn's rings is cool.  We moved a couple years ago.  About a month ago, those two planets were visible.  We dug into the storage room and put the telescope together so our neighbor's daughter (who's an adult with kids of her own) got to look through a telescope for the first time.  It was fun to see the excitement on someone's face seeing those things for the first time.

In hindsight, one thing I kick myself about is that when I was in grad school, I was too busy to make time to go out to the department's observatory (about 20 miles away from campus) even though I knew of a few of the people running it and who probably would have let me in to see things.

One of my frustrations on WCF (and other sites) is that discussions of Greek texts rarely include a good historical overview.  Here's an overview that omits many many details.

In the absence of the printing press, all documents were produced by hand.  Depending on your resources, you might hire a professional scribe (which was a common occupation) or have a friend with good handwriting do it.  In general, this was a good process though imperfect.  Many such documents contain corrections in margins or above or below text where a proof-reader observed an error.  Depending on what you could afford, you could have cheaper or more expensive materials, often parchment (expensive and durable) or papyrus (cheaper).  The earliest individual Christians and various churches likely hired scribes to make copies of various writings (including those that would be recognized as part of canon).  In the first few centuries, it is likely that there was little organization to this.  The oldest portions of the NT which exist from this era are primarily small sections of individual pages or a handful of pages that survived.   Due to the simple nature of papyrus, it survived better in arid desert regions than in humid environments.  That's why most of oldest NT fragments are from desert regions in the middle east.

[Imagine copying the entire books of Luke and Acts by hand with no chapter or verse numbers from someone else's handwritten copy.  Now imagine how every available copy of Luke and Acts was produced that way from copies of copies.  Now imagine doing this if you have some sort of time pressure like the master copy is only available for a few weeks while someone is visiting you and then you loan your copy to someone else to use.]

As Christianity became more dominant and more organized, more resources become available to churches (and gov't e.g. Constantine) to make more expensive copies of the NT.  The church also established the canon and started to become more concerned with textual matters.   At this point, very expensive and comprehensive copies of the Greek NT were produced.  I'd strongly recommend going to csntm.org (Center for Studies of NT Manuscripts) to actually see images of some of them.  A handful of 4th, 5th and 6th century parchment manuscripts which contain virtually all of the NT are the oldest complete or nearly complete Greek NT manuscripts in existence.

Over the next millennia, a large political shift occurred.  The Greek speaking world shrank.  In places where Greek was no longer spoken, Christians (outside of scholars) stopped using the Greek NT and used either a translation into their language or Latin.   Monasteries and older churches were the only place where Greek  NT manuscripts were housed and copies were no longer made in those places.  Eventually, only the eastern roman empire (byzantine empire) was the only place Christians were actively using the Greek NT as their main NT.  One of the things this led to was some scholars and copyists replacing older Greek spellings and usage with then contemporary ones.  It also meant that the original master copies residing in Constantinople and powerful churches became the ones used as the basis for later copies made there.  Also, at this point in time, Christian scholars and copyists became aware of differences between older manuscripts and started to add footnotes into their copies indicating this.    Most of the existing manuscripts today trace their origins to the byzantine empire simply because they were the last of the Greek speaking Christians using the Greek NT as their primary NT and they simply made more copies of what they were using.

It is extremely important to note that the Greek NT manuscript which any Greek speaking individual or church had was their NT.  They couldn't go online and order a copy.  They used the one they had available.

In western Europe, Latin dominated so Greek was largely forgotten and not used outside a few scholarly circles.  Erasmus was one of the first western scholars to produce a Greek NT from the few partial manuscripts he had available which were basically only a few centuries old.   His resulting eclectic text was the first western edition of the Greek NT produced by comparing older Greek manuscripts to each other and picking the most likely reading of the originals.  Any Greek NT text produced from multiple manuscripts is referred to as an eclectic text. A string of succeeding scholars and printers built on his work.  As time went on, they found more and more  Greek manuscripts.  At first, most of the ones they had were relatively recent ones from the byzantine church.  As they found more and more, they made changes to Erasmus' original.  One particular printer (basically as advertising and a title to distinguish it from previous editions) called his Greek NT "The Received Text" (or Textus Receptus in Latin).   It is important to note that this was a continuing process where more and more older manuscripts (usually byzantine in nature) were found and started to be incorporated into the eclectic text.  No one ever stopped and declared the process done but rather saw it as an ongoing process of discovery and work.

Up to this point, the western eclectic texts (of which the Textus Receptus is but one), were based primarily on the relatively recent byzantine texts.  Then, as archaeologists started to explore the middle east,  ancient non-byzantine texts started to be discovered.  At first, the non-byzantine texts were somewhat ignored because they had unexpected variations.  But then, scholars started to realize that these non-byzantine texts were snapshots in time of the Greek NT that Christians outside the byzantine empire had been using as their NT.  One find in particular was when Tischendorf was visiting a monastery in the Sinai and eventually found out they had in their possession a 4th century parchment of the complete Greek NT.   During this period of time, Christian scholars started to find manuscripts which were several centuries and even a millennia older than the ones they had available.  More and more eclectic texts were started to be created using these older manuscripts.  This has been an ongoing work of scholars for centuries.

It is an oversimplification and misleading to say that there is the Textus Receptus and a modern eclectic text.  It is much more accurate to say that there is a progression of many eclectic texts produced by many scholars with different opinions as to how various ancient manuscripts should be treated.   Erasmus is noted for having been a significant pioneer in the west of the first published eclectic text.  Westscott and Hort are noted for being pioneers of using older non-byzantine manuscripts as the primary basis for an eclectic text.  Christian scholars are still studying this today.

Today, we have two options open to us for dealing with this history of the Greek NT.   The first option is that only one of these is God's real NT.  If so, then Christians must determine which manuscript or eclectic text is the real NT and make sure that only that one is used.   This is an all or nothing approach where the real NT will be completely correct in every verse and letter.   The second option is to look at each of these manuscripts as an individual witness to what the original text was.  This is done on a verse by verse basis.   It involves the dialog, discussion, and working together of many Christians scholars as to which witnesses to a particular verse are most credible and why they think so.

At its core, the root debate is whether God appointed a few particular scholars and printers to be anointed and error-free in their production of an eclectic Greek NT for all Christians to now exclusively use for all time, or whether He gave this work to the church as something ongoing for each generation to be a part of the transmission and translation of the NT. 

A few points which need to be made.   It should be emphasized that the vast majority of variations from manuscript to manuscript are minor things such as spelling gray or grey or switching the word order of a few words.  The second is that the vast majority of variations are probably best explained by some copyist not paying attention for a few moments or being distracted and missing a line or accidentally repeating a line, filling in something from memory of a similar text, or things like that.

Anyway, this is an attempt to provide a big picture view of things.

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

Ever since the Barack Obama adminstration threatened to withhold federal funds from schools that wouldn't let boys, who said they wanted to be girls, shower with girls, I've felt the need to promote the Republican Party. I can think of few things more vile than forcing girls to shower with boys at school.

  Actually, I'm not promoting a party but truth and facts so individuals can see things more clearly.   In a world where people cannot distinguish lies from truth coming across their media feed, I'm bringing light in a few areas where I can hold my own with anyone and make a difference.   I'm choosing my battles very carefully and going after powers in high places rather than every symptom that appears.   Tentatively looking at Daniel as a model who stayed godly in the midst of two different imperial regimes and was respected in both as a wise counselor and leader. 

I don't want to give details, but I'm starting to publicly get involved in politics at a state and local level via social media.  I'd appreciate prayer for wisdom, protection, and whatever else seems appropriate.  Thanks.   

38 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

If prophecy  is dictation from God, should we not add those to Scripture.    Just a side note.    If someone knows how to answer it, please do so.

This statement seems to carry the assumption that the only purpose God ever has in speaking is to the entire church definitively for all times and never to individuals or local groups for guidance or direction for a particular time and place.  

I see the fundamental matter about revelation today as this.     Did God only speak once to Christians through the Bible?   or does God continue to speak today to all Christians individually and corporately in ways which will always be consistent with the Bible? 

My view is that something fundamental changed about revelation on the Day of Pentecost.  Prior to that, God's Spirit would come upon specially chosen people temporarily for the purpose of speaking God's words or being empowered in a special way.  After Pentecost, God's Spirit was on all believers to be able to speak His words.  Unlike the OT when God used specially chosen prophets, today the Holy Spirit (God Himself) resides in all believers.  I think that is much of what Jesus meant when He said the least in the Kingdom of Heaven was greater than John the Baptist.  John was the culmination of the OT prophetic line who pointed out and baptized the Messiah.  What is different about each of us compared to John?  The Holy Spirit lives inside of us.  Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, it was about striving to know the Law and follow it.  After His resurrection, it is about knowing God and having Him live inside of us and transforming us.   If we see the primary point of the Bible as being a series of rules or a theology textbook, we focus on it as a once-for-all revelation that can never be added to.  If we see the primary point of the Bible as pointing us to God, we see it as a history of what God has done and a guide for what He will continue to do in the future. 

1 hour ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Can you find any examples in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit taught someone directly who was not an Apostle?

Luke, Mark, James (depending on which James wrote the book), and Jude were authors of NT books and were not capital-A Apostles.    The vast majority of Christians today would also consider the early church fathers who determined the canon of the NT to be inspired in some infallible way by the Holy Spirit as well.  Acts 13:1-4 makes it appear the Holy Spirit spoke in some way to all of the elders at Antioch.  If it had been to Paul alone, it's likely Luke would have recorded it that the Holy Spirit spoke to Paul who then spoke to the others.   In Acts 9, God spoke directly to Ananias in a vision.  As other have mentioned, guidance and prophecy are associated with non-Apostles, e.g. Agabus, Mary, Philip's daughters, and many nameless converts in which it is described that they spoke in tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit came on them.   Various lists of gifts in the church also seem to suggest strongly that various forms of revelation occurred in people who were not Apostles.  

I think one aspect that few people consider is what "taught" really means.  I think today many Christians in the west have this idea of the Holy Spirit giving a special few capital-A Apostles the first classes in advanced systematic theology once and for all.  To a large degree, much of the church today idolizes doctrine and theology and sees it as something for all Christians to aspire toward knowing perfectly.  In contrast, my sense is that the early church was much more focused on knowing God Himself and walking with Him.  It was about knowing Jesus Christ, being transformed by the Holy Spirit, and seeing the hand of God active in their lives.  My sense is that the early church considered being "taught" of the Holy Spirit to be more related to living life and knowing God rather than our Western view of being "taught" as aspiring to have perfect intellectual doctrinal knowledge of Christian theology.  I would relate this to the difference of people who consider "faith" to be completely convinced (with no doubts) of various intellectual positions versus those who consider "faith" to be trust and confidence and assurance in God Himself which grows over time because of the months and years and decades that they've seen Him active in their lives.  Is the main point of being "taught" by God to have intellectual perfection or to have Him show us how to walk with Him in our daily lives?

22 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Be fully Grounded in Scripture and Doctrine

Be full of the Holy Spirit

Be praying and prayed for

Be not a lone wolf

Be knowledgeable with the doctrines you are refuting

Be Jesus Centered in all conversations.

Discuss the main doctrines like Who Christ is and What he did.

I'd also add sharing one's personal testimony of what God's done in their life.  

@Hallelujah Joan 

For the past decade or so, I've been researching learning.  In particular, why some people seem capable of prodigious feats of learning.  For example, the person who can use a dozen languages, the person who plays several musical instruments and can learn a new one in a short time, or the computer guru who seems to be able to learn and use any program.   It took awhile, but I realized there were some principles that underly this.  Basically, it is this.  If you work with your brain, you will see more success.  If you fight your brain, you will not.   For the vast majority of us, learning to sing the happy birthday song was done in accord with how our brain naturally assimilates things.  In contrast, memorizing the periodic table of elements or other such things was usually done in a way fighting our brain.  Unfortunately, many of us picked up from school a no-pain/no-gain approach of learning whereby we see our brain as a stubborn mule that needs to be kicked and beaten to do any work rather than a marvelous thing that easily assimilates information from the world around us.

Here's my recommended approach to Bible memorization now.

• The most important thing is this.  Whatever you do should make you eager to come back the next day to do it again!  As soon as you start having to force yourself to work at it (telling yourself to hang in there because it's good for you), that is the beginning of the end.  If you are starting to become frustrated or bored, that is a warning sign you need to do things differently.  Purpose to make this an enjoyable and satisfying part of your life rather than an obligation.
•  Decide how much time you will put into this *daily* and when.  Perhaps 15 minutes during lunch, or while riding a bus or commuting, or 5 to 10 minutes when you get up and when you go to bed.  The critical things are to do it daily and to do it at a time you are alert and eager.  It's better to start with a smaller amount of time that leaves you wanting to do more than being too ambitious and forcing yourself to work the last half hour of the hour you allotted for this.  Your best learning occurs when your brain is engaged and enjoying it.   Learn what this feels like and how long it typically lasts. 
• Do NOT put numeric goals or deadlines on your progress.  You will learn at the rate you learn!  Don't beat yourself up for not being realistic about how fast learning will occur.  Rejoice over the progress you make rather than be discouraged over too slow a pace.  Resist the temptation to put more and more time and effort to reach deadlines.  This is what causes many people to burn out and give up.  Your main goal should be ever increasing familiarity with a passage rather than comparing yourself to timed perfection.
• Use multiple methods.  Combine listening with reading and reciting.  Find an audio version of the translation you use to memorize.  There are several free ones online of various versions.  You could also record yourself (or a friend with a pleasant voice) reading it out loud.   The more different ways you can expose your brain to the passage, the more quickly and thoroughly your brain will assimilate it.  There are several combinations of methods you can use with audio and the printed text.  You can listen, you can listen and speak along, you can listen and read along, you can read out loud.   You could put the audio on autorepeat to play over and over in the background while you are doing something else.   What you are trying to do is to mimic the process whereby you learned the happy birthday song or one of the many Christmas carols or hymns you probably know sections of by heart.  Repeated pleasant exposure to the entire passage (or at least full sentences or longer phrases) helps your brain assimilate the passage in its entirety.   This is in contrast to toiling at rote word by word memorization in a manner reminiscent of memorizing the abbreviations for all of the elements or some other set of information in school that you are then tested on.  The important thing is figuring out what is most enjoyable and works best for you.  Perhaps you will find a few of these methods work best when you start learning a passage and other methods are better for fine-tuning it later.  Perhaps you do one method when you get up in the morning and a different one when driving.  You need to figure out what works best for you.

Note that recent research has suggested that the best long term learning occurs when things are learned in their larger context.  This is slower but much more thorough.   An oversimplified explanation is that your brain is seeing the passage as a united whole where each word is a part of the bigger picture.  Your brain slowly assimilates and becomes familiar with the entire picture and gradually remembers more and more details intimately connected with other details.  In contrast, the best short term learning occurs when you break things up into small chunks and drill yourself over and over on each small chunk.  This is what we've all learned in school in order to get better grades on tests.   When rote memorizing a passage,  forcing yourself to learn word after word in a verse gives you the impression of progress and allows you to initially recite a passage from memory in a shorter time period.  However, your brain is not doing as good of a job assimilating the passage.   As an oversimplified explanation, your brain is seeing each word as something that follows another word.  As soon as you start forgetting one word, the chain around it falls apart and you need to rebuild it.   In order to keep it active and accurate, you will need to review and review.  In contrast, repeated pleasant exposure to the passage via multiple methods for a short time every day will over time will create a long-term familiarity with it.  

For example, fill in the following.  Oh Come All Ye Faithful, Joyful....      or  Silent night, Holy night, All...      I doubt a single one of us ever sat down intending to memorize these lyrics but there they are ready to come out as soon as we think about it.  We sing them a couple times per year in December.  Few of us probably remember all of the lyrics to the verses perfectly and there are holes in our recall of them, but if we were to listen to each song and read the lyrics once per week for a few months, chances are that we'd remember more and more of each song.   In contrast, think of various things you "memorized" in school for class after class but no longer have in active memory.  It would take almost as much effort now to get the information back as when we first "learned" it.  

Anyway, some general advice based on what I've been researching for some time now.

@one.opinion, @Starman    I've been enjoying following this discussion.  I appreciate the good will and honesty.

5 minutes ago, Salvation67 said:

I read on various Christian sites and forums where some say once you are saved you never sin again and some say it is a process that gradually happens as the Holy spirit works in you, and some say you simply dont want to sin again once you are saved. Can any one clear this up for me? I'm having trouble finding things on the matter in scripture. I am a new follower and could use some sound input.

My opinion is that sins typically fit into one of three categories:  ignorance, immaturity, and spiritual injury.   Sins of ignorance are trivial things; God prompts us that something is unhealthy and we just stop doing it.  This might be through reading the Bible, listening to a sermon, hearing someone tell us something, or just a sense of right and wrong in our conscience.  Sins of immaturity gradually vanish over time as we spiritually grow.  This is when fruit of the Spirit (see Galatians 5:22-23) grows and manifests in our lives over time.   Then there are sins (often addictions or compulsive behaviors) that are symptoms of an underlying crippling emotional or spiritual injury that God needs to heal us from in some way.  This might be something miraculous in a moment that we are freed from or God might use a process over time involving other people such as friends, or a pastor or counselor.  

The important thing is to focus on what God wants you to change today.  Develop good spiritual disciplines in your life such as regular Bible reading and study, prayer and meditation, being with other Christians, and similar things.  Often we get focused on dealing with sin via the "new years resolution" method, we try very hard to change ourselves targeting what we think is most serious.  Learn how things such as Bible reading, prayer, fellowship, etc. best work in your life.  We are all different and what works well for one person may not work for another.   Listen and read about what other people do and then experiment to find what works best for you (which can change over time).  

As a new Christian, you are going to find that Christians tend to agree on the practical matters of what God does in our lives, but often disagree vehemently about theological explanations of how and why God does those things.   You will find some Christians are more concerned that you agree with their explanations more than if you are actually being transformed into the unique person God intends for you to be in Christ.  Over decades of watching Christians, I've found that the most important thing is the actual fruit exhibited in someone's life.  It's easy to talk the talk by quoting a bunch of Bible verses and spouting reams of theological jargon, but a deep and abiding and permanent transformation into a person for whom fruit of the Spirit (again see Gal 5:22-23) is an integral part of their life only comes with years of walking with God and being transformed.  With regard to sin in our lives, much of what you will hear is theoretical theology based on someone's opinions rather than actual practical guidance on healthy growth.  Some Christians have theological reasons to insist that "we all sin daily in thought, word, or deed" and can never escape sin but should always throw ourselves into a mostly losing battle fighting sin because it's the right thing to do.  Others have theological reasons why we should at some point be delivered from sin putting a heavy burden on people because they aren't finding perfect deliverance.   Sadly, many Christians will go so far as to denounce anyone who disagrees on these various explanations as being a heretic and perhaps not even being a Christian.  

The best explanation I have at this point is that sin is falling short of God's intentions for our lives.  I used to define this legalistically via a set of rules we fail to perfectly follow.  I now define it in this way.  God created each of us as unique individuals that are intended to reflect His glory in some way unique to each of us.  Before we come to Christ, we are a mixture of fallenness, imperfection, sin, and corruption along with some parts which are who God intended us to be.  Perhaps an example is a defaced work of art that amidst the damage still shows some of the Artist's original work.  Christ's atoning work sets us in right standing with God and then He starts the process of restoring that work of art to what He originally intended.  I used to constantly ask the question, "What does God want me to do?"  I'd then try very hard and then beat myself up for not being able to always follow through.   I learned that a much better question to answer is "Who does God want me to be?"   As we become who God wants us to be, our behaviors and thoughts naturally start to align in a healthy spiritual direction.  God's Spirit simply naturally flows through our lives.

On 11/19/2019 at 2:04 PM, HikerMom said:

Any thoughts Gandalf or others?

 

I've mostly left off interacting on this site (as a positive move away for spending time on other things and not as a bad reaction to something) but check back on occasion.  I just happened to see this post.  I'm not sure I have much to add to what's already been said.

Over my adult life, my wife and I have been in about 10 different churches with about half of the transitions being caused by moving to a new location and half from just being called to be somewhere different.  We've averaged probably about 3 to 5 years in each.  

The reality is that community tends to occur in groups small enough so people can spend some meaningful time interacting.  In  a smaller church, this can occur with the main services and associated things such as Sunday school or studies.  To some degree, you can just show up on Sunday morning and community will just happen.  It tends to happen more easily simply because most people are acquainted with most other people.   Just showing up allows you to invest in community building.  However, in a larger church, community mainly occurs in focused ministries and small groups.  This usually means meeting people and doing things outside of the main services at different times of the week.  It has to be done more intentionally.

After a lifetime of being in smaller churches (where most people knew most people), we've now been in two large churches in a row.  At first, I didn't like the idea of a large church, but have found that there is much more opportunity for community outside the main services.   We found that getting involved in small groups and focused ministries is where we've met the most people and gotten to know them.  We've then found that the larger services feel more personal given that we usually know a number of people from the smaller groups.   We just moved to a new town a bit over a year ago and have been taking my wife's mom to her large church (where she's been for probably 20 years or more) and by default that's become our church.  I really don't feel like I fit in that much, but found a men's small group there that is okay.  I probably don't know more than a few dozen people at this point, but the number is slowly increasing.  My most regular attendance is now in the small groups rather than the main services.

The reality is that we don't know most people in the large churches (though many  faces become familiar).  A large church will never have that same feel where you can look around and know most people.  There will be times of being surrounded by a crowd you don't know.  However, if it is a healthy church, there will be ample opportunities for community in the various ministries and groups.  In a smaller church (especially one you've been in for many years), you can just show up and interact.  Many people find community in both large and small churches.  It does take getting used to to switch from one to the other.

I think God's calling me to move on from here and put my time and energy into other things.  I'll probably take a few more days or so to perhaps interact and do a few "see you laters".  I'll probably stop in now and then and try to keep a sense of what's up.  Perhaps at sometime in the future God will bring me back here for a lengthy time again.   But for now, I know my writing time is meant to be doing other things.

Tigger56's post on veils seemed like a good place to make a final thoughtful big post.  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/241638-veil-upon-the-heart/?do=findComment&comment=3053197

I'll also leave three last video songs.

  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/241671-the-blessing/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/241672-when-its-all-been-said-and-done/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/241673-omega/

[EDIT: Got busy adding videos and forgot to finish]    This place has been a blessing and many of you have blessed me through your prayers and encouragement and debate.  For clarity, I'm not leaving due to any negative reasons, but simply because in the past few days God has been convicting me I need to make a transition.  I'd been feeling it for a time, but today just seemed like it was time.  Many an hour of meditation and thought I've spent here have been a good time of growth for me.  May God's richest blessings be on you all.