Mike Mclees

On 8/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Starise said:

To a new believer or an unbeliever, some of the statements Jesus made can be reason to scratch our heads wondering what He actually was trying to put across, and it's no secret that a lot of what He said was intentionally cryptic..

I remember the first time I read the passage about Jesus where He stated we should pluck our eye out or cut off our hand if it causes us to sin, for it is better to lose an eye or hand than go to hell. Whaaaaaaat??????

I immediately went to the visual mental picture and the thought of it turned me off.

Some people will read this passage and say, He's lost it. This Jesus character is just weird. Quite honestly, He could have appeared to be a little unusual. Difficult I suppose to be God in human form and not be different.He was also magnetic to those who He called, and in other circles at home he was just an average guy. Mainly because I don't believe He did most of His miracles or started teaching until Later. If you had been in His presence and seen Him Heal or feed the 5000 or speak, there would likely be no question.

The statement I mentioned that Jesus said, well I have pondered that one a lot since. If one of us was caught up in a serious sin that involved the eyes, and if we could be in hell for even 30 minutes, then I believe the statement He made would begin to make some sense. Most tend to underestimate our sins in a very big way. Jesus was making a point for how serious sin and hell is. From that perspective it makes sense to me.

Another statement of Jesus  the disciples wondered about was when He said the temple would be destroyed and He would raise it in three days.

Jesus was referring to his body and rising from the dead three days after His death by crucifixion.

And then we have the parables Jesus taught where He admitted that what he was saying was intentionally kept from those who were not intended to 'get' the message.

 

In John 6 Jesus addressed the crowds that followed Him after the feeding of the five thousand. Staring at verse 53 through 66 saying , " 

⁵³ Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day.

⁵⁵ For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

⁵⁶ He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him.

⁵⁷ As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father, so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me.

⁵⁸ This is that Bread which came down from Heaven, not as your fathers ate manna and are dead; he that eateth of this Bread shall live for ever.”

⁵⁹ These things said He in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

The general public and many in the church  being fleshly or carnal minded cannot perceive or understand these difficult sayings. They hear but cannot hear and they see with their eyes but cannot see. We must be born again of the spirit. Jesus said  to the disciples verse 63,

"It is the spirit that quickens(makes one alive) the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

24 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course I do.  The Greek word is a compound word for "change the mind".  The concept is that by changing one's mind, one will also change direction.

The prodigal son is a clear example of that.  In the pig sty, he confessed his sins, and went back to his father.

Alright, but hear is the regional question. "and if they don't repent, what?" 

What is unrepentance?   would it be as rebellion and unbelief? what if the Prodigal did not return to the Father? 

8 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

This is what I asked:

"FreeGrace said: 

Of course they are.  Very clear words.  What does "repenting" mean to you?  How do you understand the word?"

Your question is not an answer to my question.

How can I answer your question if I don't know what you think "repenting is"?

I already stated it.  You just haven't answered. Most every true believer knows what repentance is.  don't you know? 

2 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

What does one have to do to be repentant?  Does he not have to turn away from his sin or sins and confess? I would like Freegrace  to answer

Well How about that!  

1 hour ago, Mike Mclees said:

and if they don not repent, What ?

What does one have to do to be repentant?  Does he not have to turn away from his sin or sins and confess? I would like Freegrace  to answer

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course they are.  Very clear words.  What does "repenting" mean to you?  How do you understand the word? 

and if they don not repent, What ?

13 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

When you say "not suggest..." you are giving your opinion.  I don't see any suggestion of loss of salvation.

And what do you do with the clear teaching of Jesus?

In John 5:24 Jesus said whoever believes possesses eternal life, which establishes the FACT that at the moment of belief, the believer has eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (believers, Jn 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

These are the clearest of words that teach eternal security.

From the moment of faith in Christ for salvation, the believer is eternally secure.

Any disobedience or unfaithfulness from THAT POINT forward is a "family matter" and our Heavenly Father won't kill His children, any more than any decent human father would kill theirs.  Rather, He will discipline them with painful discipline, which is what Heb 12:11 SAYS.  And the Bible is full of examples of how painful that can be.

I read in the letters  five churches are being called to repent of there issues. Would you not say that? 

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I don't see any questions that you accused TFC of creating.

This is what I said:

"FreeGrace said: 

Could you ask these "many questions" that you accuse TFC of creating?  I'm sure he or I would be happy to answer, among others.

The issue of reward is very clear in Scripture."

The letters to the 7 churches are ALL about reward, or the loss thereof.

Do you agree?

I disagree.  Letter to Laodicea REv 16 is not precis but is very strong language that would not suggest simple loss of reward. 

16 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

¹² So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. [emphasis added]

Unless I missed it, thus far, I have not seen an explanation of what we will be giving an account of in our lives. We will be standing before the elevated Bema Seat, not for condemnation, but for crowns and rewards, if any.

Our confessed sins have been forgiven, are they not?

¹² As far as the east is from the west, So far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Does our account have anything to do with our sins or standing before God? I think not, as we are justified to the Father through our Savior and mediator, Christ Jesus, one of His own. It is some judgment we face. I favor the following explanation:

The Judgment Seat of Christ is that place where Christians will have their works judged by the Lord. It has nothing to do with our sins, since Christ has paid for them and they can be held against us no more (Rom. 8:1). The word for "judgment seat" in the Greek is bema, meaning the place where the judges stood at the athletic games. If during the games they saw an athlete break the rules, they immediately disqualified him. At the end of the contests, the judges gave out the rewards (see 1 Cor. 9:24–27).^[1]

The way I picture giving my account: Did the Holy Spirit direct me to do a good work, and presented me with opportunities to share the Gospel, and I ignored it or said no? Dennis, provide an account of those and explain yourself. Dennis, when you did these public good works, you called fruit. Did you do them for MY honor, praise, and glory, or your own? Just as I thought, filthy rags, wood, hay, and stubble. Let us test and refine them with fire to see if they stand the test. I suffered a significant loss of crowns, potential rewards, and kingdom responsibilities.

Still, the Lord is omniscient, knowing the beginning from the end and me from the world's foundation. The Lord knows me better than I know myself. I will not be lying, covering up, or embellishing anything standing before Jesus the Judge, nothing but the whole truth of my actions or inaction.

If the above is scripturally sound and correct, the way I understand giving an account. Then a question comes to mind:

What is the reason, purpose, or benefit of giving my verbal testimony of my failures? Is disobeying the Holy Spirit to act (works) not sin? Is doing good works on our own, not called by the Holy Spirit to do so, filthy rags?

Throughout the Bible, the Lord is a legalist; there are laws in heaven and earth. For fairness, righteousness, and legalities, sins and rewards must be judged, with the appropriate penalties or prizes administered. I wonder if 2-3 witnesses will be involved.

 

 

 

---

^[1] Wiersbe, Warren W. The Bible Exposition Commentary. Vol. 1. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1996. Print.

It is our motivations for our works that will be judged by fire weather they be good or bad, fleshly or in the spirit.

Yes, as in first Corinthians 3:12-15 the judging fire is concerning the believer's works. I think this is the same with the parable with the faithful and unfaithful servants - they are already servants of their master, so the question is, "What did you do with what I gave you?"  If they were deemed to have been faithful in just a "few things" they are praised and rewarded. However, the slothful servant received a reprimand and resulting consequence (I don't believe that consequence was loss of salvation).

I assume that Vineabider is referring to the wise and unfaithful servansts in Mat 24 verses 48- 51 I would like to look closer at the wording concerning the unfaithful servant.  Vine says this refers to a reprimand. Lets look at verse 48 reading KJV.

"but and if that "evil servant" shall say in his heart my Lord delayeth his coming; 

This does not relate to just a reprimand 

verse 51 It says "the Lord shall cut him asunder". this word is defined as riped apart or cut to pieces. This does not relate to a simple reprimand Neither does it relate to anything we would see in Heaven. Neither does weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth relate to anything you would see in Heaven.

8 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Please don't go there bro.  If you feel that way, perhaps take a break and talk to Jesus about it.  PM me if you like, but let's keep that kind of stuff off the public viewing, OK?

I was just saying. 

3 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Agreed - any time believers get into intensive wrangling that don't build up in love . . .

There are some things he hates and lieing and deception used as truth is one them. 

5 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Jesus loves me and you - how 'bout that!?

I cant help but believe that he Is saddened about it. 

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

And I said the same thing (shut down) a few posts earlier - if the conversation continues as it has lately.

Well this is the only thing we agree on

6 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Correct - our oneness is in Him.

Actually this thread should be boycotted or shut down.

16 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

It's grieving to read those words . . .

I think what you stated here is a strawman (as that's not my stance at all), but I believe the bigger question between us is this:  Can we just put this aside bro, have the Lord's table together and celebrate our oneness in Christ?

There is no oneness here in this thread.  

I have study articles in my bible which I have not opened until now so I am quoting from my "age of antichrist" study.

Both church history and the predicted falling away at the end time warns believers not to be naive about widespread corruption of the Gospel. At some point in church history, rebellion against God and his word will reach astounding proportions. The day of the Lord will bring Gods wrath on those who reject His truth (1st Thes 5: 2-9)

  Are we not seeing these things happen?    

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

If they are born-again with His life in them, those in 2 Thess 2:3-4 will be disciplined, but not lost (which is the 3rd option).

(BTW NOTE TO ALL - let's stop accusing others of "cherry-picking" verses. This does little to promote effective fellowship in love for our fellow believers!)

I'm sorry but this is not just friendly debate because you are teaching a false doctrine that is miss guiding Gods people down a dangerous path. You teach a disrespect for God and His word saying we can live in flagrant sin. Jesus Died for our sins but we will also die for His sake and for righteousness. I will fight you till judgment day.

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

If true, there has to be a verse that says this.  Please provide.

If true, there has to be a verse that says this.  Please provide.

If there are no verses that say these things, they are just opinions and contrary to the Bible.

The idea of continuing faith in order to be saved is refuted clearly by these 2 verses:

John 3:18 -  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Do you know what "have not believed" means?  It means "have NEVER believed".

That is who will be condemned.  Those who never believed.

Consider the second soil, who "believed for a while, and in time of temptation, fell away".  Did he ever believe?  Yes.  So he won't be condemned.

I know who your two verses are speaking to and what do they have to do with OSAS? They are people who have heard the Gospel and never received it. This is an example of how you twist scripture. You need to address those who were believers but fell away as in 2nd Thess 2: 3-4. the great falling away. Can you say they are still saved? !!

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

oh, ok.  I guess you don't have an explanation for the 2 most clear verses on eternal security.  Got it.

This is my answer which  I gave from page 14 and still today across the board.

One has all of the promises as long as he believes and remains in it. If any turns back from his faith and belief, will not enter into Heaven. One must confess his sin and repent! You need to repent! 

11 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Sorry, not sure what that means - with verses or?

It means I do not have to continue here and you have a nice day. 

4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Oh I believe exactly what Jesus says, so what are you actually questioning?

Maybe you should help me out here and explain precisely what Jesus taught in Jn 5:24 and 10:28 then.  Please.

I don't appreciate being swarmed. 

1 minute ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, He did.  How does that relate to loss of salvation or conditional salvation?

No, He sure doesn't.  He will discipline His children just as the Bible commands parents to discipline theirs.  Not kill them.

Heb 12:11 teaches that God's discipline is painful.  No one gets away with anything.

Please provide any verse that says this clearly.  Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for every sin.  so how can any sin prevent any believer from entering into God's kingdom?

I have shared John 5:24 and 10:28, but it seems there is a lot of resistance to what they teach.  Why?  When Jesus said recipients of eternal life, which is when a person becomes a believer (Jn 5:24) they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).  

Your comments show that you do not believe what He said.

Oh I believe what He says. Its you I question.

7 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Not at all.

Now read it again where it precisely says those who live this way will not enter into His kingdom

4 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Sorry that you don't see the fundamental, over-arching principle of life in scripture.  I thought I answered your question . . .

Do you see in that (verses from Gal 5:19-21)  where someone ceases to be a child of God (their Father's life is removed from being in them)?

Do you see where God justifies flagrant living in unbelief