listener24

Thanks I agree, and in particular first the Gospel, because if someone starts the NT say from Revelation, there is still the risk that Gandalf talked about. You are absolutely right! Unfortunately, sometimes they try to do that, but they get discouraged by starting the wrong way. I was one of them. If instead you start by hearing directly Jesus own's words, the words that "many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it", then you could get more encouraged to start putting aside distractions

Yeah many people start with Revelation because it seems the most "intriguing" It happened to me too one time... Very confusing experience. Another time I tried to start with the first books, and I got lost in the many genealogies, so I gave up again. Finally I had the luck to read the Gospel one day... and that's when everything changed

Thanks for your answer! One of these reasons may be that almost no one, in His own Church, is praying for His return anymore, differently from early Christians who were praying "Maranatha" with conviction. Unfortunately, some even hold in their hearth the hope that he comes as late as possible, and look at his Day with fear. Is this a ready Bride? You are right about the fact that whichever request we may do, we should ask that only if it's according to His will. That's why we also add "Your will be done", and He is the only one who knows with 100% certainty if this prayer is according to His will and in that case He'll listen(Luke 18:1-8); we can only have a certain confidence based on the many Scriptures about it, but not the certainty. That is true for every prayer, even less Scriptural ones that are still practiced.

'Love your neighbor as yourself.' An aspect of Love is just the realization that the happiness of your brother is as important as your happiness, therefore as you do as much as possible to be happy, you should do as much as possible so that your brother will be happy. And we are all siblings in God. Moreover, contemplating the unconditional love that the Father gives us, it's a great fuel to our love. When you feel loved, it's easier to love too, and in the infinitely loving message from the Father we can get so much love, to spread into the world. Finally, in my opinion, gratitude is a state very related to love. The one who is incapable of holding gratitude, is hardly able to love.

Retrobyter has given a very Scriptural answer on why to trust the power of Prayer. This, in addition to the many Scriptures quoted in the topic starter, because this wants to be an intention based on the Scriptures, and actually it's hard to find the New Testament an intention more cited than this. Thanks for the Scriptural details. If someone is not still happy with Scriptures, however, here is another reasoning, (in addition to the ones discussed above and to the urls), presented me by a scholar of the Bible. This is about how a set time is perfectly compatible with the power of prayers to shortening: "It would be an extratemporal effect, thanks to what is sometimes now called Boethian omniscience (after the Christian philosopher who ruminated on this among other topics while waiting to be beaten to death for his faith). The specific time God sets for the Return doesn't alter, no more than the precise time of His first coming, but is still based (partly not entirely) on the situation of the faithful praying for it (as was true for the Incarnation and the prayers of His people for deliverance). That's because all natural times are present to God's omniscience (thus to God's omnipresence), and He introduces effects into the created natural system with full knowledge of how those effects relate to the past, present, and future of the natural system." Someone may find this reasoning useful, someone else may just trust the Scriptures. In my case, I just trust the Scriptures, but I'm presenting these reasonings in addition to the Scriptures, in response to other human reasoning that have been proposed.

Before Jesus called me, I've tried different times in my life to search the Truth by starting reading the Bible. It had no effect on me, just confusion and I gave up every time. Then one day, for some reasons, I picked the Gospel, read them in an afternoon, and they changed my Life. Now if I look at other books of the Bible they make more sense too, even though the Gospel has remained my primary Lamp. Moreover, nowadays people having a hard time with scarce jobs, limited time, countless distraction, are definitely afraid to start reading a book of 1600+ pages. Therefore, in my opinion, I'd suggest to someone approaching Faith: Read the Gospel! And you? What you'd suggest?

I agree with you! Indeed, the proposal of the starting topic is only based on Scriptures. If we just trust Scriptures, we can make that prayer. But since some here tried to answer and stop this intention by a human reasoning on that realm "they said: since God knows and has decided the future, then our prayer have no influence". That reasoning is already disproved by the Scriptures, but I've demonstrated that it's even refuted in its own human realm.

Good question! The predictions are for us, I'm referring to the prophecies that He let us know. But you are right, He chooses the events of course. The only other thing to take into account is our free will. He knows what we'll do with our free will, and He makes his decisions by taking into account this too, but He doesn't completely overcome our free will. For instance, if someone will decide to not accept Him, it won't be because of a God's decision but because of what that person will do with his free will. This is not uncertain to God, God knows already His decision, but it's not being decided by God either, the person decided to not accept Him. God in this case only decided to respect His free will. And, btw, that answer with the timeline is only for people who believe that God knows and has disposed of the future. For those who don't even believe this, there are even less thing to explain about the influence of prayers.

@Retrobyter @Yowm @MyLordsServant @4LdKHVCzRDj2 @Sojourner414 A quick research shows how many pastors support this prayer (and there are many others). Now what's surprising is that, differently from early Christians, today only few experts seem aware of it, while most Christians are overwhelmed by thousands of intentions. (Ps I'm not tagging people who don't want to join, because I don't want to convince anybody and don't want to bother anybody, just want to pray with people who'd already like to ) http://learnbibleprophecy.blogspot.it/2010/12/come-lord-jesus-maranatha.htmlhttp://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/pray-for-the-end-of-the-world#sthash.GiV7mAO7.7QHYMEE5.dpbshttps://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/read/articles/can-we-hasten-the-second-coming-of-christ-15204.htmlhttp://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Timeline/Hastening.Lords.Return.htmlhttp://christianteaching.org.uk/blog/eschatology/hastening-the-return-of-christ/#comment-32538http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/06/can-i-speed-up-return-of-jesus.htmlhttps://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/scriptural-conviction-hastening-the-day-of-the-lord/http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt-come-back-yet-according-to-the-new-testament/http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/

Exactly, of course as Christians we want to take part to prophecies by standings on the Good side. We want to be the ones about whom it is written: "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" And we want to be among the ones that make this happen: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Dear SisterActs2, first off, what a beautiful testimony secondly, as you pointed out there are many reasons for praying, and one is about communicating and relating us to God. And only if we remain in Him, and His Word remains in us, we could desire something according to His will. Thirdly, as you mention, there are prayers that are not just for us, but also for our brothers. For instance, the Lord's prayer is never about "I", always about "us". Finally, let's recap that there are many aspects of prayer: communicating, aligning with God's will, etc. In this thread, the focus is on one particular aspect, but this doesn't mean that the other aspects are less important, it's just that for a matter of synthesis we cannot treat every aspect of the prayer in a single thread. God bless

Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they are sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father? Someone say that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen. I don't think that this position is very Scriptural since seems like God always wanted us to cooperate to His Salvation Plan, but I'm curious to hear both sides on this opinion. In defense to the idea that our prayer may have influence even though God has set things by knowing the future, I propose this simple reasoning. Imagine 2 possible timelines of the future, one in which a person (let's call her Martha) prays, and another in which she doesn't pray. And let's imagine that the prayer is about getting the courage to testify the Lord in a hostile country. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- TIMELINE 1 Event A: Martha prays for courage Event B: The Lord, by knowing Martha's prayer and by considering the prayer according to His will, gives her the courage Event C: Martha goes in a hostile country to testify the Lord TIMELINE 2 Event A-2: Martha doesn't pray for courage Event B-2: The Lord doesn't force the gift of courage upon Martha, by respecting her free will Event C-2: Martha stays at home ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, the Lord knows the future. He knows from the very beginning if Martha will choose event A or event A-2 (and let's say that she decides A), so he knows that He will send her courage. But this doesn't mean that Martha's prayer wasn't important, indeed it was fundamental! Thus, even though God knows the future, our prayers may have a practical effect. What do you think about it? PS this topic came out a lot in this thread too, with a related question:

Beautiful video, full of Scriptures! Thanks for sharing. Maranatha.

Yes brother...these are points in which I guess it's normal that there is disagreement, and it's useful to consider the various point of views and the various Scriptures. Hoping to come closer to the Truth together. God bless you

Even if it's redundant to treat again the basilar different, complementary concepts of 1) God knowing and predicting the future, and 2) the way He took His decision by taking into account the elect's action too, I'll consider the possibility that I wasn't clear with the explanations above and I'll try last time. (if you google "hastening the return of Jesus" you'll find the same logical (and scriptural) explanations that me and other users have written here above) Since you talk about the future, I hope you have familiarity with logical reasoning. Premise: God created men with free will. Now, imagine 2 possible different timelines in the history of the world. TIMELINE 1 - what is predicted (the events are in order): Event A: Jesus preach the Gospel Event B: His disciples START to spread the Gospel in the whole world Event C: His disciples prepare the bride (the Spiritual Church) by ardently desire the return of the Bridegroom, the Lord Event D: one of the events predicted, say, a war Event E: one of the events predicted, say, a tribulation Event F: one of the events predicted, ecc. Event G: The Gospel is finally spread all over the world, and all over the elects cry and shout to the Lord (Luke 18:1-8) for His return Event H: The Lord has set the time of the End here (from the very beginning), by knowing that B, C and G would have happened and by taking into account them too. Event I: Something else that may have happened if the Lord didn't cut short the days, but will never happen because the Lord knew that B, C and G will happen before. Now the Lord, by knowing this timeline, have told us some things that will happen in the last days, like D, E and F that you can find forecasted in the Bible. It doesn't mean that when fixing H, he didn't take into account B, C and G, on the contrary, he gave importance to His people in cooperating in His salvation plan, and to their actions and prayers, and decided H by taking into account them too! Now imagine another timeline (that luckily will not happen, because the Lord has predicted that the Timeline 1 will happen) TIMELINE 2 - what could have happened if nobody cared about the Gospel (the events are in order): Event A: Jesus preach the Gospel Event B: Nobody care Event C: The few that care, think that they'd be better off to hope the Lord to return very late Event D: one of the events predicted, say, a war Event E: one of the events predicted, say, a tribulation Event F: one of the events predicted, ecc. Event G: The Gospel is still almost unknown Event H: The Lord could have set the time here if his Bride should have cooperated, but since nobody cared and nobody wanted His return, He delayed His return. So nothing happens here Event I: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen Event J: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen Event K: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen (etc.) [...] Event V: FInally someone wake up, understand the Good News of the Kingdom, spread it and pray "Come" Event Z: The Lord by knowing the timeline, has set the date here (from the very beginning). In timeline 2, More events happen, so more events would have been predicted if it was what the Lord forecasted. But luckily, we are in timeline 1, because from the beginning people started to spread the Gospel; by taking a quick look on Google by typing "Hastening the return of Jesus", looks like there are many pastors from different denominations (and non-denominational) who understood the Lord's prayer Peter and Revelation, and are teaching to hastening the Return. You can find in one of those articles the same explanation as above, but I invested my time to make the schema for you in case it wasn't clear with just words, so now I'm 100% sure that it's impossible not to understand that simple, commonly accepted theological concept (that everyone take for granted with respect to all other prayers, like the prayer to send workers into the field). The difference between timeline 1 and timeline 2 is made by the free will of men. And for God, men's free will is sacred, He respects it. He doesn't joke with us when he teach us the importance of the prayers, and when He puts a prayer such Maranatha at the very end of His book. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone trying to stop this prayer, but I'm having hard time understanding. I don't know what someone gains in trying to block this prayer. If the prayer is wrong, blocking it would have no effect anyway, so there would be nothing to gain. If the prayer is correct, how sad someone will feel to have tried to block it, to discourage his siblings to make an action for hastening the Return of the Lord (that some elects will realize anyway), thus delaying it. But there is an actual positive outcome from those trying to block it, and it is that thanks to their counterarguments, each point can be presented with more details. So I thank them for that ---------------------------------------------- Finally, watching and asking are actions that don't exclude each other. They are both in the Gospel. We can watch for the signs, and asking at the same time. Indeed, we have to do many actions at the same time: watch, ask, preach, help, etc. There is absolutely no point in quoting an action that is written somewhere, to exclude another that is written somewhere else. God bless you

Btw, I just realized that by typing "hastening the return of Jesus" on Google there appear several articles by different Christian pastors, that confirm that is a Biblical intention. But even if it's Biblical, the question seems to be: "do we really want it?"

It is great to have the attitude to always learn something, while in this world. It is the best way to live, and I'm glad that you are living this way, I also try to. However, I think that you agree with me that Jesus will teach us infinitely other things when we'll be with Him. Because otherwise, people with shorter lives than ours, would be penalized, and I don't think is the case. Therefore, I think that if the Lord should come fast, we won't lose our chances to learn, we'll have the awesome chance to learn directly from Him in His glorious Kingdom. While we are in this world, however, we still shouldn't waste time but be learning every day, as you mentioned, but without deluding ourselves that what we are learning could never be learned in the Kingdom, otherwise those poor <6-year-olds persons died at very early ages, would be condemned to remain "ignorant" forever. But I think that in the Kingdom, there will be room to learn for them. Then, of course, about His disciples, the Lord doesn't ask to take them out of the world, because if He had taken out the 12 at that time, or the few early Christians, nobody would have been left to testify Him and spread the Gospel in the whole world. But now that the Gospel is being spread in the whole world, if God should rapture His elects, everyone would understand what happened, the testimony would be available to everyone, there are even movies about it. @Retrobyter Q:"Just to be clear, do you mean "Jesus' Return will be an event when He collects us," or do you mean "Jesus' Return will be an all-inclusive event?" A:"Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left."

I believe in the power of the Spirit to keep us from evil if we allow Him, but I also believe that while in this world, we are still subject to temptations. Even the apostles were, until the end of their earthly lives, and I don't claim to be better. Can anyone claim not to be subject to temptations? I don't. Furthermore, can anyone claim that he is living a life free from evil? Is anyone literally following all Jesus commandments, like "And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.". I haven't met any who is obeying 100% all these commands. We are all sinners, in my opinion, and to a certain degree, we still commit sins in this world, even after the Spirit calls us. This because we are still in this world full of temptations, and the temptations come from the evil one who is still here. My life changed completely after meeting Christ, nonetheless, I'm still a sinner to a degree, I don't claim that I'm following perfectly everything in the Gospel, even if I'm trying hard to do it, by asking the Lord to guide me with His Spirit. One day, instead, we'll never any more "be led into temptations", because we'll be separated forever from the evil one, and that will be the complete delivery. Last, I'm not asking for "me", because the Lord's prayer is plural. I'm asking for us, as the prayer says, because Jesus' Return will be a collective event.

@Yowm @MyLordsServant @shiloh357 @Sojourner414 @frienduff thaylorde @angels4u @Retrobyter @Psalms37:4 Dears, I'm so glad to see that different positions are being debated, there is nothing better than a friendly, Christian confrontation on the Scriptures. I think that we can summarize the different positions expressed so far: Position 1) God has already decided everything, we have no influence on His plan. Position 2) Agreement with what's expressed in this topic starter, i.e. that we have 2 missions, spreading the Gospel to all nation, and pray the Lord for His return, and both actions will hasten His return. Position 3) A lot of bad things will happen in the Lord's day, so it'd be better off if He comes as late as possible. This more or less wraps up everything discussed above, even though it misses some nuances, and if you have additions they are welcome. Now, here are few questions I have about Position 1) and 3). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Position 1) (God has already decided everything, we have no influence on His plan): 1.1) First, let's not confuse a little, lapalissian thing: God knowing the future doesn't mean that people living in the future have no free will or influence. If I know that it will rain, therefore I'll decide to set the day of my picnic to a day in which doesn't rain. But this doesn't mean that the event of raining had no influence on my choice, indeed it had a GREAT influence: I moved the date according to what I forecasted. So if someone would ask: "did you already decide the date (of your picnic)?" I would reply "Yes". And if they ask "did your information about the future (in this case the weather) have any influence on your choice?" I'll reply "Of course, I set my date by considering these information too". Same we can think for the Lord with respect to our prayers and actions because He respects our free will. 1.2) So many verses in the Bible seem to suggest the importance that the Lord has put upon us, to cooperate in His salvation plan. And part of this cooperation is expressed via prayers and intention through the Bible. The Lord is even saddened by our missing cooperation: “Yet you have not called on me, Jacob, you have not wearied yourselves for[a] me, Israel. 1.3) Are you sure that you would have applied the same reasoning of Position 1), if there would be discussed here another prayer? For instance, say that the prayer was for (Luke 10:2) “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.". If the thread was "Let's pray the Lord to send out workers", would you have ever replied "No, that's a useless prayer, the Lord has decided everything, so he has decided how many workers to send, how dare you to ask these things to the Lord?" I don't think you would have replied this, but clarify me if I'm wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now about Position 3) (A lot of bad things will happen in the Lord's day, so it'd be better off if He comes as late as possible.) 3.1) First of, there are more different interpretations of the events before the Last day, than there are Churches existing, I guess. And frankly, I don't claim to know the right interpreation. Are we really sure that we want to discard the desire and intention of the Return of Jesus -desire shared by the first Christians - based on one of these? 3.2) Regardless the many different positions about the events before the Last day, one thing I know: the end result will be the delivery from evil of all the Christians, and us taking our places "at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." What a wonderful day! It's for hastening this Day, the prayer and spreading the Gospel discussed into this topic. 3.3) How sad is it for Christian, to see at the last day as something bad, to wish his delay? First Christians were living in the hope to be alive when that happened. What happened to us since then? 3.4) I think that you agree that righteous people who lived before Christ, or where His Word was not spread, and who in their life have searched the Truth, will be likely saved in the Last Day. The Lord will show them their faces. Remember this, before arguing that the Last day is bad because someone won't be saved, and remember that by spreading the Gospel in the world we are still hastening the day, because "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." So why the intention in the prayer should be bad, if we are moving toward it with our actions too? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last, a clarification once and for all: we are asking God to satisfy this intention, if it's in accordance to His Will. This should be true for any prayer. This is contained in the Lord's prayer that we are discussin in this thread, that in addition to "Your Kingdom come", and "deliver us from evil", says "Your Will be done". So it’s a win-win: if the prayer is useful, and according to God's will, how happy we will be..if it’s not, not a big deal, it would have still been useful to pray this, at least to increase our desire to see the Lord in all His fullness instead of wishing His delay as someone does. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

I'd like to share my opinion on this too, eager to listen MyLordsServant's one. In my opinion, in the same way by which people usually hope to be satisfied by making any other prayers. For instance, a guy could need some courage to testify the Lord. He knows that maybe one day he will get it, or the Lord will give Him, but he wants it as soon as possible, in order to be able to testify the Lord's glory to unbelievers. It is a good prayer, so he asks the Lord to shorten the time before he receives this gift. He doesn't want it "one day", he wants it as soon as possible, if that is in accordance to God's will too of course. God, before the prayer, wasn't forcing the courage upon this guy, even though He wanted to give him His gifts. After the prayer, God is more than happy to share this gift, if He thinks there are no other side effects. --------------------------------- So you can imagine this timeline, in God's decision about the day. By looking at the future, he has seen some of His elects crying and shouting Him to be delivered from evil. He then considered other things that are mysterious to us, in addition to these prayers, to set the right date. He did this by forecasting the future, and He forecasted the prayers of the elects and gave importance to them. He also forecasted as MyLordsServant said, that his elects would have spread this Gospel all over the world, and for some mysterious reasons, He wanted to make His decision by taking this into account too. So the times are shortened, with respect to a timeline in which there are NO prayers, or no people spreading the Gospel. Imagine the same timeline, but in which not only nobody is asking the Lord to return, but some of them called "Christians" secretly hope that He will never come. In this timeline, God has a reason less to shorten the time, when He set the date. Luckily, seems like in our timeline there are people eager to see the Lord and who are asking this prayer, that in other words is the Lord's prayer. I've been told that ancient Christians were making this prayer, then for some mysterious reasons, we got rid of such beautiful thing. Maybe we can get it back.

I would like to really thank @shiloh357 for raising his points, that lead to the amazing clarifications by @Yowm and @MyLordsServant. I'd also say that this last explanation from MyLordsServant is incredibly well-written, I agree with every word. Thanks, all brothers and sisters for this very interesting exchange

Dear shiloh357, I've never mentioned ever the silly notion that we should "change" God's mind, and forcing Him to do something against His will. That would be a silly belief indeed, and you are right to remind us not to make that mistake! Instead, I'm saying that IF IT IS IN HIS WILL that our prayer have any effect, then He will happily receive them and satisfy them. And let's not mess up again with simple reasoning future-based. God knowing the future, of course, doesn't make the present less relevant. For a simple, naive example, that you know for sure, the fact that the Lord knows that someone will refuse Him, doesn't mean that the evil guy's decision doesn't have any influence because it's only in Lord's hands. No, it is that guy who chooses that, then of course, it is in God's will to respect his choice. The fact that God knows the future, doesn't mean that we have no choice, nor that our actions have no meaning or influence in God's Salvation Plan. MyLordServant has already thoroughly discussed this point above, in a very sharp way in my opinion. "Your Kingdom Come, Your Will be Done" Maranatha.

This is amazing Shilohsfoal, we have surprisingly arrived to the same conclusion through this open dialogue. This is exactly what I'm talking about: God who considers His sons' prayers, into His plans of salvation. The fact that by knowing the future He knows that He will already take into account them, doesn't exempt people living in the present for actively praying and cooperate, nor make them useless. @MyLordServant, what an answer! I think that this is a common message throughout the Scriptures too, and only some verse out of context could deny it. Exactly my point: and I think that our mission may be articulated in exactly the 2 points that you mention: spreading the Gospel, and praying with the right intention. (Because both things are incredibly stressed in the Gospels). And it is stressed that is not enough to pray by wasting words, but the right intention is what's very powerful. If you think about it, these things are complementary: to the more people is preached the Gospel, the more people can ask with a sincere heart the Lord to hasten his Fulfillment. Exactly, as I discuss in a point above, I don't mind if people believe in pre/post/past/pluri/anti tribulation. What matters is the intention to see the Lord soon, to ask Him: Come! So every Christian could potentially pray this, this could be a unifying desire. And this leads to your last point: I discuss this in point 1: it's not necessary to create "new" Churches. Because the real Church is the union of all the seekers of Truth, in the name of Jesus Christ, and who are subdued to Him only as a Master. So, this intention is so powerful because it can be spread to several Churches (except the so-called ones that hate the Return of the King) And as you mentioned, these are 2 very important points in the Gospel: prayer, and preaching. If you think about it, what greater "testimony to all the people" would be than Christian all over the world asking for their savior to deliver them, once and for all, from evil?

I'm definitely sure of that, sorry if I didn't express myself correctly. (This is also covered in my point "avoid misconceptions" in this thread starter) What I'm not sure of is if, in setting that day, He has also taken into account the prayers of His elects, because He knew the future, included the prayers we would have done, and the way we would have spread the Gospel.