Hands On

That The Lord resorts to "The Rod" if need be, is in no doubt! See also how nicely the Lord explains to Habakkuk how people push God's warnings to the limit and do not take Him seriously "Look at the nations and watch and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe even if you were told.6.I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous person. who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwelling-places not their own.7...a law to themselves and promote their own honour. (sic)"(NIV Hab.1;5-6)The Lord did so in those days, to people He loves. Therefore I see no reason why He should not do the same today, to His children who refuse to listen and obey His commandments regardless of the ultimate sacrifice of His only begotten Son. "(Jn 3:16)

The Bible is the Word and Will of God revealed to us as He deems fit. It's the only way to eternal life, no matter what hardships, temptations the world may throw at us. God expects us to learn and grow in His Word as he expected of the Israelites  in Deut 8:3 and repeated by Christ in "It is written,' Man shall not live by bread alone,but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'"(KJV.Mt 4:4). Sure there may be some very useful DIY books and ideas out there on how to come out tops, but they normally prove to be nothing but hot air if one's achievements are not to the glory of God, which is what Christianity is all about.

Just like a stray deer or buck are easy pickings for a wolf or lion; so the DIY specialist an easy takeaway meal for Satan, I would imagine. Simply  because  "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."(NIV 1Pet 5:8)

I believe one of the main problems is that people are under the misconception that there is no "Hell" or "eternal death" when the Bible clearly states that there is (Mk 9:47-48). Of course, it is easy to take an objective armchair approach, and judge from a distance with intellectual calipers and judge objectively, and say that someone should not have done so and stuck it out.

What if the person who has terminal cancer and cannot deal with the chemo side effects or maybe some other physical defect, blind, cripple, the list just goes on and on. I would consider these to be bonafide reasons from a human perspective. God will be the judge though if one takes a wide view of Rom 14:10-11.

The person who believes that he escapes the realities of a particular sin is clearly barking up the wrong tree is he believes that he or she will sleep forever as if they never existed by committing suicide. Those" wages of sin " (Rom 6:23) still have to be faced pertaining to eternal death as read with Mk 9:47-48.One only has to be reminded  of Saul's suicide (I Sam 31:4-5) and Judas (Mt 27:5)But bear in mind that under common law in most countries "committing suicide" is no crime. However, "advising" someone or encouraging them to do so, would be in most cases considered to be complicity or accessory  to the unlawful intentional act of killing a human being.In which case it would be talking about  "murder" on the part of the "adviser"!

Of course, the goal is to accommodate Science where it is in conflict with Genesis 1 and Creationists. Firstly , wishful thinking on how verses should have been written and how they actually are written are two different aspects. Secondly, there is no shred of evidence of any "war" taking place prior to verse 2 anywhere in the Bible, as far as I know. 

 WOW! I had to stop & think for a minute"Whats an R100?" LOL    Praise Jesus!!!!! Not too many folks would run to catch the person who left behind a hundred dollar bill or maybe there are more than we think?

Of course, it's the Christian principle more than the actual comparison in amounts, but nevertheless, in Willa's case her $400  pans out to roughly R13.795 = $1 x $400=R 5518 in South African currency. What more can one say?

4 hours ago, Willa said:

A few years ago something similar happened to me.  I had just come from the bank and withdrawn household money for that pay check, and the envelop containing $400 fell out of my purse as I was getting out of the car.  The lady who found it brought it into the store and gave it to a clerk to return to me because she didn't speak English.  She was an elderly Hispanic lady caring for several grandchildren.   From their clothes they appeared impoverished.  I tried to give her a reward but she refused.  It meant so much to me that someone who needed it more than we did would go out of her way to return it.  Praise God for her integrity and for being such a good example to those kids.  She sure was a blessing.

Just goes to show, doesn't it? We don't always need smart letters of recommendation or great CV's to distinguish between different children of God. I am so reminded of Paul's "...Or do we need like some people .letters of recommendation to you or from you?2. You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody.3, You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."(N.I.V. 2 Cor.3:1-3).Nice to see that some people really do listen to Sermons or remember Sunday School lessons. Their behavior says it all.

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Rick Warren is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Beware of him. Stick to the word of God without Ricky's interpretation.

Thank you I will bear that in mind. However, the fact remains, no matter how Rick Warren is branded for whatever reason, is his opinion and verses referred to here, relevant or helpful to the topic posted. How has he not stuck to the word of God in this particular instance?

3 hours ago, Abdicate said:

This is the same for everyone sometimes in their lives. God wants you to go through the desert to see if you really want Him. That is, that will you still seek Him and His ways. Pray and study without "feeling" Him. He wants you to graduate from the level of maturity you're at right now on to the next level. It's about the journey to see if you'll live in faith (in strong conviction). Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Hang in there, seek and you shall find.

I think Rick Warren prescribes the right medicine in harmony with the above. It's not about a constant "happy experience". Sure enough one feels "at peace" when we have Christ in our hearts part of the Church or Body of Christ (T.E.V.Col 3:15). The question is are you active in your church in the service of God? If so great !Secondly even the "Biblical Greats" also felt that God had left them. Rick Warren comes to the rescue with, "To mature your friendship, God will test it with periods of seeming separation-times when it feels as if he has abandoned or forgotten you...A.W.Tozer called them  'the ministry of the night.' Others refer to 'the winter of the heart.'

Besides Jesus, David probably had the closest friendship with God of anyone. God took pleasure in calling him 'a man after my own heart."( New Century Version.Ps 116:10)Yet David frequently complained of God's apparent absence.: 'Lord, why are you standing aloof and far away? Why do you hide when I need you the most.? (Living Bible.Ps 10:1)' Why have you forsaken me? (New Living Translation Ps 22:1)"(Warren. Purpose Driven Life 108)The main question we must clarify is, is God to serve us; or are we here to serve God; no matter what the world throws at us?

As already said above, the study of the Scriptures brings us close to God and His will as revealed to us.

Reproducing is one thing, but affording to feed and properly  "bring them up with Christian discipline and instruction"(T.E.V.Eph 6:4b), quite another,read with the real  world of "You will have to work hard all your life to make it produce enough food for you."(Gen 3:17c).

The marketing pro's see most us as "Lost Gens" (20's to end WW II). "Boomers" (Born 1946- 1965) then the "X Gens" (later 60's-70's).Then, of course," i Gens" when the internet came on.My dates may not be that exact, but then again I am an "Oldie". I think that noun "Boomers"   is kind of funky.What do you guys think? 

I went for my annual medical check-up yesterday. Considering my sort of "milage" (need to know of course),I praise the Lord that He still allows me good health in order to fulfill His will and purpose for my life on this earth. Obviously, I also have my wear and tear issues like "Sugar Level Too High" and "Blood Pressure Too Low". Yet I am truly grateful that I have no serious terminal issues diagnosed at this stage of my life and for that, I truly praise the Lord. One can pass many examinations in life, but none greater than this. As Christ says "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered31.So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."(N.I.V.Mt 10:30).

I also look back to the last 2 years and most of all am most, most grateful that my eldest daughter had been cured of breast cancer according to her recent check-ups. What more can one ask for?

I believe it's not something to wonder or guess about. According to Paul, as I see it, it's a" given".Built into with our Christian conscience, as it were. Although non-Christians also have a conscience, distinguishing right from wrong, morally or ethically, nevertheless to the Christian specifically, Paul writes "9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righreousness11...he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."(N.I.V.Rom 8:9-11)

But we must always make sure that we remove a lot of "junk" that crowd our lives and leave very little "parking space" for the Holy Spirit's voice to guide us; for example "Do not get drunk on wine which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."(Eph 5:18)

Applying Paul's advice to "slaves", which was everyone just about everyone who did some work in those days, considering that in the Roman Empire, " there were 60,ooo,ooo slaves.In Paul's day a kind of terrible and fatal idleness had fallen on the citizens of Rome.Rome was the mistress of the world, and therefore it was beneath the dignity of a  Roman citizen to work. Practically all work was done by slaves. Even doctors and teachers were slaves."(William Barclay.Letters to the Galations and Ephesians. p.212)See Eph 6:5-9

In today's terms I would think, that if you are paying off a bond or a car loan you would be a slave of the Bank. Paul didn't even tolerate sponges in the Church according to my interpretation of "...'If a man will not work,he shall not eat.'"(2 Thess3:10 N.I.V).Cruel to be kind of course!

Talk about "imagination" oddly enough all of Christ's miracles are substantiated with eyewitness proof of these events eg Matthew, Luke, and John to name but a few as mentioned above by George. However we are expected to accept only Mohammed's ipse dixet (his say- so) on the following unsubstantiated  grounds or excuses, according to Edward Gibbon "The mission of the ancient prophets, of Moses and of Jesus,had been confirmed by many splendid prodigies;and Mohammed was repeatedly urged, by the inhabitants of Mecca and Medina, to produce similar evidence of his divine legation;to call down from heaven the angel or the volume of his revelation,to create a garden in the desert,or to kindle a conflagration in the unbelieving city.

As often as he is pressed by the demands of the Koreish,he involves himself in the obscure boast of vision and prophecy ,appeals to the internal proofs of his doctrine.and shields himself behind the providence of God,who refuses those signs and wonders that would depreciate the merit of faith and aggravate the guilt of infidelity. But the modest or angry tone of his apologies betrays his weakness and vexation, and these passages of scandal established beyond suspicion the integrity of the Koran. The votaries of Mohammed are more assured than himself of his miraculous gifts; and their confidence and credulity increase as they are farther removed from the time and place of his spiritual exploits. They believe or affirm that trees went forth to meet him;...saluted by stones; that water gushed from his fingers..."(Gibbon.The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.Vol 111,86-87)

I know Peter tells us to "Respect everyone, love your fellow- believers, honor God, and respect the Emperor"(Good News Bible.1 Pet2:17), but I suppose one just has to find a way "respect" the above reasoning, no matter how difficult. People will believe what they want to believe to suit certain agendas.

I believe if a well-prepared Sermon produces the following outcome or result"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock"(N.I.V Mt 7:24), then the Sermon would have reached its objective. Hearing here includes "'understanding" according to the Greek word for hearing "akouo" used in this verse.Of course different denominations praise and worship the Lord in many different ways.Some emphasize the "experience" element with music.Others strike a balance between Sermon and music. The true test I believe is not only the effect or experience in the gathering itself ,with everybody "sprouting angles wings"(Billy Sunday) but have the congregation really put into practice what they have "heard" and maybe "understood" (Mt 7:24) when they return to the home,place of work or any other activity they find themselves in and beyond the Church precinct.? Are we really behaving like Christians as expected by Christ?

From my experience I have noticed that like any monologue lecture ,the average listener can only effectively understand in a  20-25 min framework.One can only do so much in that limited framework.There are other means getting the message across , Bible study Q&A, Questions after the Sermon or whatever method of communication is used.Bearing in mind each has its drawbacks and limitations.The bottom line though, in my humble opinion is ,if nothing has been taught and understood then no matter how "huge" the "experience" was, one could just as well attend a "Rock Concert" or experience a "Super Bowl" event with thousands of folks having a great rave.

I believe "politics" revolves around the "self".If I vote for a particular party or person the whole point is to be for my own interests. Now my "own interests" as a Christian would be to vote for leadership which allows for religious tolerance with not one, dominating over the other. This in turn to a religiously tolerant society with checks and balances on power abuse cf Mt 20:25. History has shown that a purely one denominational Government does not work, not even a Christian one. Take the Roman Church for instance in its power build-up in the first 1000 yrs A.D.Too much power in anybody's hands no matter what religion, turns into a form of "Emperor Worship" if not controlled. Therefore Christians should also play their part in ensuring that the natural tendency toward power abuse is kept in check using their democratic right to vote.

I must admit that what I am about to posit is more at home with "Apologetics" but nevertheless, I believe, finding an application here as well I have not read all the posts and beg forgiveness for any duplication that I may be guilty of. The most user-friendly way of understanding the Trinity, I find, is simply "not to understand it".This is okay if one is  in Christian circles where all are unanimous in accepting this "mystery" which Easton Bible Dictionary defines inter alia as, "The calling of the Gentiles into the Christian Church, so designated (Eph_1:9, Eph_1:10; Eph_3:8-11; Col_1:25-27); a truth undiscoverable except by revelation, long hid, now made manifest. The resurrection of the dead (1Co_15:51), and other doctrines which need to be explained but which cannot be fully understood by finite intelligence (Mat_13:11; Rom_11:25; 1Co_13:2);..."

But now the challenge arises how does one explain this to a non-believer or all others as in "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have...with gentleness and respect" (New International Version. 1 Pet.3:15) and as far as respecting or honoring others in  their beliefs "Honor(timao, my insert) all men.Love(agapeo, my insert) the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king."(King James Bible,I Pet 2:17)

Now it is with this aspect and in the context of Peters guidelines, that I had to face a Jehova Witness whom I must admit "bowled" me out at that time, on this aspect of the "mystery" of The Trinity.He actually confronted I never tried to convert him.His"trick" was to confront me with "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven. nor the Son, but only the Father."(New International Version.Mt 24:36). Now, this was a while back before I became a little more Christian streetwise. Regarding the Trinity he argued in words to the following effect "You say that Christ and God are one and that has always been that way since the beginning (Jn 1:1) right?If this is the case how is it possible that the "nor the Son"(Mt 24:36) does not know when the "end of the age" will be?

All I could think of, and my best shot was that old Sunday School song, "because the Bible tells me so".I shamefully admit that I also wondered about this aspect. However, the Holy Spirit came to my rescue which I think could prove quite useful for others who might also find themselves in the same position but this little bit of advice might help to send the ball well and hard into the opponent's court with all due "respect" . Hershel Hobbs offers this explanation, which I believe to be perfectly plausible in terms of "always be ready"(I Pet 3:15) under similar circumstance as shown above. He exposits in the context of Mark's gospel 13;32-37 , "How may we understand this expression of Jesus about His own lack of knowledge concerning the day and hour of His return? While insisting upon His deity we must not ignore His humanity. It was in this latter light that He spoke these words. In His incarnation He assumed certain limitations which are a part of complete humanity,apart from sin.Indeed sin is not a part of humanity as God intended it.And in His perfect humanity Jesus said, 'My doctrine[teaching]is not mine,but his that sent me' (John 7:16).

Again, ' The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise' (John 5:19).The heart of our answer is found in John 8:26,28. ' I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him...I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me ,I speak these things.The incarnation was a fact, but it is ever a mystery to finite minds.So in the Father's good pleasure.He had not 'taught'the day and hour of Jesus'return.It is governed by condition. When the condition is right that will be the time.And while the triune God knows when the condition will obtain,the Father during the incarnation did not reveal it. It is that which is set in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:7)"(Hobbs An Exposition of The Gospel of Mark.208)I hope this might prove useful to others who might also "fall prey" similar to the incident I encountered.

Amen to that George. If I can add little something to that George, I am sure Satan and his buddies must have a great celebration counting all the broken marriages (with drinks on Satan),especially Christian Marriages, not following Paul's advice "as to the Lord"(New International Version.Eph 5:22)One could go into an issue over who is the "boss" of the house, i.e The Christological vs Cultural argument,but for the purposes of this post I firmly believe that a marriage is like a mini-church in accordance with 23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. his body of which he is the Saviour."(verse 23).I understand this to mean that the "Christian Home" is a vital element where all members in that "mini-church" or "sub-component" of the "Christ is head of the church"(infra)It follows that our behavior in that home should be analogous to our Christian behavior within the in  body of Christ and all other situations which we as Christians may find ourselves in our daily walk following Christ.

The behavior and respect by all Christians baby to adults within that "mini-church" and should follow the same Christian education process in accordance with  God and Christ's command "the greatest Command"Mt 22:37-40) which refers directly to "5.Love the Lord your God with all your heart,with all your soul ,and with all your strength.6. Never forget these commands that I am giving you today.Teach them(my bold) to your children. Repeat them when you are at home and when you are away..."(Deut.5-6a).It does not say leave it to the Church or Pastor or even the public school, but the parents themselves must do their bit as well in this "mini-church".This is where Satan really hits the underbelly and literary laughs at Chris,t because in most cases the "mini-church" is also divided "within itself"(supra)

The Israelites were no doubt also very busy running their homes to focus on "teaching" but evidently God does not "buy" that excuse.Not then and neither today "I the Lord do not change..."(Mal. 3:6) It is easier said than done,but yet there we have it,if we really "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..."

Amen to that George. If I can add little something to that George, I am sure Satan and his buddies must have a great celebration counting all the broken marriages (with drinks on Satan),especially Christian Marriages, not following Paul's advice "as to the Lord"(New International Version.Eph 5:22)One could go into an issue over who is the "boss" of the house, i.e The Christological vs Cultural argument,but for the purposes of this post I firmly believe that a marriage is like a mini-church in accordance with 23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. his body of which he is the Saviour."(verse 23).I understand this to mean that the "Christian Home" is a vital element where all members in that "mini-church" or "sub-component" of the "Christ is head of the church"(infra)It follows that our behavior in that home should be analogous to our Christian behavior within the in  body of Christ and all other situations which we as Christians may find ourselves in our daily walk following Christ.

The behavior and respect by all Christians baby to adults within that "mini-church" and should follow the same Christian education process in accordance with  God and Christ's command "the greatest Command"Mt 22:37-40) which refers directly to "5.Love the Lord your God with all your heart,with all your soul ,and with all your strength.6. Never forget these commands that I am giving you today.Teach them(my bold) to your children. Repeat them when you are at home and when you are away..."(Deut.5-6a).It does not say leave it to the Church or Pastor or even the public school, but the parents themselves must do their bit as well in this "mini-church".This is where Satan really hits the underbelly and literary laughs at Chris,t because in most cases the "mini-church" is also divided "within itself"(supra)

The Israelites were no doubt also very busy running their homes to focus on "teaching" but evidently God does not "buy" that excuse.Not then and neither today "I the Lord do not change..."(Mal. 3:6) It is easier said than done,but yet there we have it,if we really "Love the Lord your God with all your heart..."

I think we should stick to the issue of "Faith and Science" which was originally posited here. If this were a court case then sticking to the "charge" laid would be the principle. In this respect introducing factors about "magnitude" and even latest data indicating an old universe "at +/- 4.7 billion years", whether originating from "latest data"  are points introduced, which in my humble opinion, are totally irrelevant  to the statement originally laid that "faith is fundamental to Scientific experiment" as posited by the author (supra). With due respect, nothing represented here thus far has refuted this particular assertion. 

I really don't concern myself as to "how" God made the earth and all the other infinite amount of galaxies, although others might be interested, and indeed that is their right as God made intellectuals to use their talents of logic and reason. It is generally accepted that Moses was well-educated being,as a young man in the Pharoes court and family,and one can assume that he received the best education that Egypt could have offered at that time.The Pyramids are still standing to this very day and bare witness of high education and precision in that period.

Secondly: It is well documented and accepted that Moses wrote Genesis as well as the other four books in the Pentateuch. Reason tells me that if Moses wanted us to accept that God first made little apes or monkeys or even a gorilla out of dust why would he not write "ape"?It can be assumed or inferred, that Egyptians were familiar with that species at that time, considering their travel up and down the Nile into sub-Sahara regions. But the fact is Moses writes: 

"H120

אָדָם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person."(Strongs Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
Why would Moses not write "ape"?I am quite sure he knew the difference .No he clearly writes and literally means that "7.the Lord God formed the man ('âdâm my insert) from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."(Gen.2:7)There is certainly no talk here of "breathing into ...nostrils " of a monkey or any other species.

Therefore sometimes as interesting as it may seem, would it not be much easier not to concern ourselves with "how" God Created the Universe and when, but rather focus on "why" He did it out of love of man and His purpose for man through the blood of Christ. That would be my interpretation as an absolute "end user" out of faith, in the truth of God's Word as written in the Bible.

As a new kid on this block, I am not sure what the feeling is generally  about citing authoritative options merely as a guide to interpreting on any topic posited on these forums, bearing in mind that one must also be led by the Spirit as first priority when reading or interpreting any part of God's Word as revealed in the Bible.Bob Utley holds the view "This possibly refers to
1. the geographical scope (cf. Mat_28:18-20)
2. the Gentile mission
3. the Spirit being with every believer
4. Jesus' intercessory prayer (cf. Heb_7:25; Heb_9:24)"(Utley.You Can Understand the Bible.ibiblio.com)

More particularly with regard to "greater things" George ,Beasley-Murray feels that "The contrast accordingly is not between Jesus and his disciples in their respective ministries, but between Jesus with his disciples in the limited circumstances of his earthly ministry and the risen Christ with his disciples in the post-Easter situation. Then the limitations of the Incarnation will no longer apply, redemption will have been won for the world, the kingdom of God opened for humanity, and the disciples equipped for a ministry in power to the nations. Nothing has been said thus far about the sending of the Spirit, but that is shortly to be made known.

Here the emphasis is on the continuing ministry of the Lord with and through his disciples.by whom the glorification of the Father in the Son will be continued."(Beasley-Murray.36 Word Biblical Commentary, John .255)I would go along with both of the above opinions, yet others might hold a different view.

Can't say that I know much about science, yet it is one of the gifts and attributes given to man or woman made in the image of God "Gen 1:26".It is so that  Christianity is based on faith.The Bible mentions this fact many times yet interestingly enough lets here what a Christian who comes from the scientific world, Ernest Lucas has to say about faith: 

      "There are two misconceptions here, The first is that faith has no place in science. In fact it is fundamental to it. Scientists believe without absolute proof(that is, they have faith) that the world is ordered in a rational way and that this order is stable. Moreover, they believe without absolute proof...that the human mind is rational and can discover and understand that order correctly.It is not possible to do science without taking these basic steps of faith...Lif as a Christian begins by putting one's faith in Christ as the saviour through whom we are brought back into a right relationship with our creator.

The second misconception is to think that this act of faith is irrational...There is plenty of evidence in the Bible and in the experience of Christians down the ages that Jesus is who he claimed to be and that the commitment of one's life to him leads to the experience of God which is promised in the Bible.In other words .christian faith is a reasoning and reasonable trust in Christ,based on a good deal of historical and experiential evidence which is available to those who wish to investigate it."(Lucas.Genesis Today,Genesis and the questions of science.36-37)

I often wonder what does Christ in God think, when He sees all these wars and faction fights, abuse under the shroud or flag of His "Holy name".Well, we are left in no doubt what God thinks and says "20 Wherever they went, they brought disgrace on my holy name because people would say, 'These are the people of the Lord, but they had to leave his land.'21 That made me concerned for my holy name since the Israelites brought disgrace on it everywhere they went.22.Now then ,give the Israelites the message that I, the Sovereign Lord, have for them:What I am going to do is not for the sake of you Israelites,but for the sake of my holy name,which you have disgraced in every country where you have gone23 When I demonstrate to the nations the holiness of my great name-the name you disgraced among them-then they will know that I am the Lord..I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken."(Good News Bible...Eze 20-23)

I have every reason to believe that this is also applicable under the New Covenant due to the Blood of Christ and that these generally "follow the money" ventures under His Holy Name will not go unnoticed. One only thinks of the scramble to "civilize" Africa, and all the other Continents at the Berlin Conference in the Late 19TH Century. Not only Roman Catholics but so-called "Reformed" Christians as well, where we still sit with "hatred" not "Love" between believers of different color and cultures in conflict with Christ's prayer, "21I pray that they may all be one. Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me and I am in you...23 ...so that they may be completely one, in order that the world may know that you sent me and that you love them as you love me"(Jn. 17: 21;23)I also as believe that this  "love" it seems; will be only  standard,  not how civilized or wealthy any Empire might have been,but how did us brothers and sisters in Christ love each other in terms of one Christ's final prayer request to the Father (above)?