DonkeySpeaksAgain

On 5/10/2019 at 3:47 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

This theory you have posted pushes your soul into a great darkness,  into the blackness of darkness. I tell this to help you to rise out up from this devilish environment of darkness of the Devil. 

Revelation 12:3-4

³ And there appeared another wonder in HEAVEN (in what heaven you say is China? what you said is a foolish assertion); and behold a great red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

(China has nothing to do with seven heads of the red Dragon, neither with TEN heads as you said erroneously, nor with the seven crowns upon the seven heads. What you have said is antibiblical, it is not true.)   

⁴ And his TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven (I tell unto you that what you have written is a theorie preached through the TAIL of the red Dragon which is not China evidently), and did cast them to the earth: and the Dragon (which is not China) stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

How can you call yourself a Christian and preach an absurdity of this diabolical nature? In fact, all the ungodly nations ruled by the spirit of the Devil will be judged and destroyed by FIRE that will emanate from the Power of God's Word, and they will be destroyed by the wrath of God, as it is written in Revelation 11: v.18, you understand? And it will be literally fulfilled.    -   The things you have written has nothing to do with the Word of God, they are from another source, an evil source. Take care and avoid sowing tares.  

Careful about judging interpretations of prophecy... teaching others that Dan 9:27 is about the AntiChrist is VERY unbiblical and replaces Jesus with Satan. Your house is also made of glass just like the ones you are throwing stones at.

On 4/23/2019 at 2:46 PM, gordon7777 said:

All population of this planet worship the beast. Here is the secret then, the ear that can hear to open up at this point in the verse below ( the obedient ear..(Proverbs 25:12). The people lead into captivity, they kill/murder... 

Sorry, I understand what you are saying, but all that was essentially saying a lot without actually saying anything. I would say most on this forum can agree with what you wrote, but the question not answered is "what do you mean by 'obeying'?" 

The question always returns to this basic thought. Our Church doctrines determine and mold our responses to speaking about "works" in relation to faith. The problem I see is that "obedience" is either attached to religious actions (works) or spiritual belief (faith) without ever even considering that it is something else altogether. On both sides of the "Faith Alone" and "faith plus works" issue, the key words appear to just not be clearly defined or even understood by the teachers themselves. Have you ever realized how there are many sermons given and yet few if any will actually define what "faith" is? Not in any of your churches, of course.

On 4/18/2019 at 6:10 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

Why not?

That verse shows he moves his embassy to Jerusalem just as Trump.

In fact if you study about this man you will find he has a great deal,in common with Trump.

What about the UN or the Vatican? Why assume it refers to an embassy? The "BEAST" of prophecy WAS (existing in the first century) and WILL BE (existing in the last days), SO... the "Beast" is NOT a person but rather an entity (a group of some sort). Now, the leader of the beast will be a person (the A/C).

All that said, the USA is NOT the beast.

On 4/17/2019 at 8:15 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Scratching my head a little. Labels should be used sparingly for things that actually can benefit for having a label, but let's smooth a few things out.

First of all, the 70th Seven of years begins with the baptism of Yeshua` and his announcement of the gospel (the good news) about the Kingdom, confirming that gospel with the miracles from His Father that He performed. The 70th Seven of years was POSTPONED during the "holy week"; that is, the final week of His life before His death, burial, and resurrection. That was when the Jews of Jerusalem were left "desolate" and Yeshua` foretold the events of the Olivet Discourse, recorded in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

It will pick up again where the Messiah left off when He returns and offers that Kingdom to Israel again, again confirming that gospel with miracles. That's the final three and a half years of the 70th Seven of years.

It is IN BETWEEN those two halves that the "great tribulation" has occurred and continues to occur.

These last 2,000 years are like the islands in an island chain where each island is like another instance of tribulation: the Roman persecutions, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms, the .

When the tide is low, the islands are more connected and there are larger and fewer islands. If one were to travel across the chain, they would spend more time on the ground (more time being in tribulation) than in the water (at peace). However, Yeshua` promised that "those days (of tribulation) shall be shortened." In other words, the tide will be kept high so that the frequency of the land masses will be less and smaller and farther between. That way, more time will be on the water (at peace) and less time on land (in tribulation).

The overall time doesn't change; it's the time of TRIBULATION WITHIN the overall time that is shortened!

So, when you said, "I think all the evidence points to NO 7 year treaty, and NO 7 year tribulation," I totally agree with you. However, I also disagree with a "3.5 year tribulation."

And, when you said, "I feel great harm would be done to those in that 3.5 year tribulation if all available literature talks about 7 years with the A/C appearing after 3.5 years. Imagine when Jesus returns at that point? WOW!" I wholeheartedly concur, however, I believe that Yeshua` ("Jesus") will return just BEFORE the 3.5 years, and that the 3.5 years will be a time when He again offers the Kingdom to Israel, and this time, they accept Him and it!

Anyway, that's my perspective.

Yes, "labels" create a great deal of confusion. I too agree that when the Bible says "great tribulation" it is referring to the "Church Age". 

The subject of this discussion is still Dan. 9:27. The 70th week began at the baptism, but I don't think just because the 70th week was cut in half that there will still be ANOTHER 70th week (or full 7 years) before the "end". Revelation CANNOT be logically broken down and tied together without encountering contradictions with the timeline. Every time a "timeframe" is given it is ALWAYS ONLY 3.5 years. The 3.5 years remaining of the 70th week (which was cut short with the Dan. 9:27 Holy Week) makes the most sense when seen as applying to the Jews (the rest of the 70th week). The "break" or gap (Church Age) began with the "interruption" of the Holy Week. It is marked by the resurrection of Jesus and it is intriguing to me to attach the "resurrection of the Church" (Rapture) to the END of it - which will ALSO mark the BEGINNING of the continuation of the 70th week (final 3.5 years). With the Church gone (most of it - we hope) the focus of Revelation then goes BACK to the Jews. Their "blindness" will NOT be removed until the END of the 70th week. I don't see another 3.5 years AFTER the 2nd coming. I do see, however, an additional 45 days to allow for the bowl judgments.

Anyway, I remember considering the possibility of placing Jesus' return at the start of the "final tribulation" (I prefer this label instead of "great tribulation") but was not able to maintain the integrity of the timeline. Some contradictions prevented me from accepting or staying with that line of thinking. Initially, the 144K are said to "follow him wherever he goes" and that began the thought for me. Can't remember right now all the problems that caused me to back away, but would listen to your thoughts if you wish to write them down.

On 4/14/2019 at 11:00 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Then, I'm sorry that I misunderstood you somehow. I apologize. I find no fault in what you have just said. Thank you for putting me straight.

Quite alright, It may even have been one of your posts that gave me the "eureka" moment of realizing Dan. 9:27 concerns the holy week and NOT the 70th week? As I just said to Montana, I think all the evidence points to NO 7 year treaty, and NO 7 year tribulation, and that discussion among pre-mill people should be centered around a 3.5 year tribulation. I feel great harm would be done to those in that 3.5 year tribulation if all available literature talks about 7 years with the A/C appearing after 3.5 years. Imagine when Jesus returns at that point? WOW

On 4/14/2019 at 3:17 PM, Montana Marv said:

It appears that this veiw is your second or third veiw. I'm waiting for more.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You said this is my second or third view? How do you figure? I have always maintained there is NO 7 year tribulation. Daniel 9:27 has always been intriguing to me and I have long understood it to be the KEY verse to understanding Revelation. Yes, I have posted/written under the FALSE understanding of accepting Dan 9:27 as referring to a 7 YEAR time frame, and now I see it as being "THE 7 DAY PERIOD" of which ALL prophecy hinges - the Holy Week of the cross.

SO you have never come to the understanding that you have believed something that turned out later to be not quite right? Now, there is NO Biblical evidence for the A/C making a peace treaty. NO Biblical evidence for a 7 year tribulation. The entire Pre-Millennial argument must be centered on this truth. The debate can/will continue about rapture positioning, but it must be around a 3.5 year tribulation, NOT 7. 

The conclusion was that Daniel 9:27 is actually referring to a one "week" period of 7 DAYS (NOT years). It does NOT change my outline, I still believe the 70th week is already HALF fulfilled and there are ONLY 3.5 years remaining for the Jews and the left-behind (not the obedient Church)- all of which are portrayed in Revelation. The "covenant" spoken of is now even more solidly in my mind to be referring to Jesus and NOT the A/C. The baptism occurs at the END of the 69th week (start of the 70th) and on a Jubilee Year and is all solidly corroborated by the Jewish Calendar, the NT, and history itself. 

Another poster has a quote at the bottom of each post that reads something like "an honest man will change his opinion when it is proven wrong". I don't believe I have witnessed a single person on this site (or any other) actually have his/her mind/opinion changed concerning something 'major' based on one posting. What about you? Sure, small minor issues which don't really affect anything else, but have you ever changed your view or position on something "major" after "debating" all these years? All I ever wanted was the truth, even if it means abandoning long-held assumptions. And there are MANY assumptions accepted and repeated by professors, pastors, teachers, and prophets without much reproof if any at all. I have said this before, and I will say it again now... I thank the owner(s) of this forum because it does NOT restrict or prevent people of different 'labels' from putting forth their arguments. By labels, I mean categories like pre, mid and post.

I too hope there are "more" epiphanies to come. If they continue, I'll know that Scripture is molding my interpretation instead of the other way around. 

On 4/9/2019 at 3:08 PM, WilliamL said:

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

One key thing in all of this is that the AoD was mentioned (for the final and last time in prophecy) way back in verse 31. That covers a LOT of time and suggests that the A/C "moving to Jerusalem" also occurs LATER (or AFTER) the AoD and NOT before.

Many teach that the AoD occurs AFTER the A/C goes to Jerusalem to kick off the supposed 7 year tribulation and even place the AoD in the midpoint of that supposed 7 years?

The A/C ONLY has power for 3.5 years. 

Dan. 11:31

 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

³² And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

³³ And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

³⁴ Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

³⁵ And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Now, "Who are the people in verses 32-35?" The covenant mentioned goes back to verse 22 when the "prince of the covenant" is killed. Following the logical flow of the historical Roman context in these verses, one should be able to see the first century depicted here quite plainly. The cross in verse 22, the AoD in 70ad along with the destruction of the temple. Then, the "Christians" during the "Church Age" up to the "time of the end". Verses 36-39 then are directed at the A/C and/or the "Beast" kingdom. That leaves the "time of the end" from verse 40 onward. The time frame given in Daniel 12 is ONLY 3.5 years.

My thoughts on what must occur FIRST ...

I think the one thing that would trigger the "end" is making Jerusalem the "capital of the World" or something like that. To me, it seems to be the only viable "solution" that would be acceptable by all the different people involved.

On 4/9/2019 at 7:45 AM, Montana Marv said:

Can't wait for your next two epiphanies on this subject matter.

In Christ

Montana Marv

????  What do you mean by "two"?  

It is much clearer now that the entire prophecy can be understood as referring to Jesus and NOT the A/C! 

Dan. 9:27 refers to the ONE FINAL week (7 days) of Jesus' ministry. 

NO 7 year covenant with the Beast, AND NO 7 year tribulation!

On 3/24/2019 at 5:41 PM, Retrobyter said:

You ARE contradicting yourself. You've neglected (as has DonkeySpeaksAgain) the fact that YESHUA` HIMSELF broke the final "week" in two! THAT'S why there is a "gap" at all!

Sorry Brother, but I have NEVER taken the position (on this forum nor anytime after 2012) that there is still 7 years remaining of the 70 weeks prophecy. I have been very consistent about proclaiming the "gap" as being in the midpoint of the 70th week - thus ONLY 3.5 years remaining - just like it says in Revelation and everywhere else in the Bible.

On 4/5/2019 at 2:48 AM, R. Hartono said:

Is Netanyahu  the last twelve shepherds in Israel ?

Just verified for myself that there are 11 "names" used as the title of NT books. The twelveth? The Revelation of JESUS.

Also, have you noticed in Enoch when he wrote about "days" (I think it was 10?) of prophecy. With one day = 1000 years, we can see how Jesus is portrayed on day 6 (if I remember correctly). Day 9 covers the Millennium and day 10 the 'ever after'. So, that leaves 2000 years from the cross to the millennium.

On 4/7/2019 at 3:53 PM, aa.omer said:

John (Saintly name): “God is gracious”

The name is derived from the Latin Ioannes and Iohannes, which are forms of the Greek name Iōannēs (Ἰωάννης), originally borne by Hellenized Jews transliterating the Hebrew name Yohanan(יוֹחָנָן), "Graced by Yah", or Yehohanan (יְהוֹחָנָן), "Yahweh is Gracious".

“God is gracious"

or

"graced by God”

Multiple saints have been named John

"John" has long been assumed to mean "loved by God".

Anyway, pretty much everyone's name can be broken down in the same way. Parent's generally speaking, will always choose good positive names for their children. Few would choose names like "Apollyon" or "Destroyer" or "Satan".

All that said, it is quite interesting just the same.

On 3/31/2019 at 6:17 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

  On 3/28/2019 at 12:10 PM, Montana Marv said:

It cannot be:  For anoint the Most Holy is number six on the list, not number one on the list.  They are in their order for a reason.  To anoint the Most Holy follows to bring in everlasting righteousness.  The nation and city of Daniel must first rid them self of transgression, sin and wickedness, then they end vision and prophecy (all according to Zech 13).  Then they are ushered into a time of everlasting righteousness, which is followed by Anointing Jesus Christ as their Messiah so He can be King over them forever.

In Christ

Montana Marv

On 3/31/2019 at 6:35 PM, pinacled said:

Thank you for the clarity. 

I regain from speaking of certain things.

I would rather share The Noble thoughts and blessings freely received.

On 3/31/2019 at 1:48 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, pinacled.

First, I don't WANT to have a "conversation in oil!" The last time someone said something like that to me was when I used to work for a City Electrician!

Thank You ALL for responding to this thread. 

NOW... Let me start by saying "I HAVE HAD AN EPIPHANY!" How could something so plainly written NOT be understood JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN? My apologies to everyone for not seeing this earlier and for accepting the false assumption which has led to all the debating and confusion.

What am I talking about?

The "assumption" that Daniel 9:27 is about the last 7 years of the '70 weeks prophecy'. Yes, it mentions "one week (seven)", BUT that one week does NOT have to be "years" as in the 70th week. Jesus does confirm/strengthen/make the "New Covenant" in that ONE WEEK (7 days of the 'Holy Week'). He enters Jerusalem on Sunday, cleanses the temple, last supper, cross, & resurrection ALL in ONE WEEK. 

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Jesus confirms the covenant "with many", put an end to the need for sacrifices, and for continuing 'abominations' (unnecessary sacrifices) He destroys the temple which remains desolate UNTIL the 'completion' (2nd coming).

So simple!!!

On 4/4/2019 at 11:56 PM, Marlene S said:

" Your post is interesting. Personally, I should not have posted that response because I was uncertain, because I realized it could be wrong. Not sure why I did.

I guess you can say that all parables have the same meaning.

I do not agree with everything you said, specifically: "Furthermore, the foolish virgins CANNOT be the Jews, because they will NOT accept Jesus until the very end of the tribulation (the acceptance will be the trigger that brings Jesus back)."

The wise Virgins took oil with them, the foolish ones did not. It is all about the anointing. I can also see that it speaks of the Church because it is the Bridegroom.

The 144,000 are sealed because they know our LORD and they are with Him all the time; they too belong to the Church.

Do you not think that the 'meat' in due season could be the receiving of the Holy Spirit which the 144,000 receives when they are sealed? Just a curious question. M.

1

You seem to have forgotten that BOTH the wise and the foolish HAD oil, the difference was that the foolish "did not have enough oil". They were lacking something that the wise had MORE of. The solution was for the foolish to "go to the marketplace to "buy" more of whatever the "oil" represents. There are many Bible verses pertaining to oil, so a debate on the subject is very likely. For me, oil in this context is for the lamp - to keep the light burning. The lamp is also a key component to look at. ALL 10 virgins did have a lamp and ALL 10 were also referred to as "virgins". All these components would take many pages to cover fully, so in answer to your rejection of the sentence regarding the foolish virgins not being the Jews - I must point out that ONLY the 144K Jews accept Jesus at the start of the tribulation. This acceptance is the "faith" which is portrayed in the "lamp" but the 144K are not described as carrying lamps or connected to lamps in any way in Revelation. Rev. 1 explains the lamp as being a symbol of our faith (the Christians). The Jewish people DO accept Jesus but NOT until the end of the tribulation period.

I too believe the Holy Spirit may be the "oil" spoken of here, but then we get into the issue of "how do we get more?" John 1 2:20 "But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge." implies that knowledge is imperative in all of this. Knowledge is gained through Scripture and it appears the foolish are either lacking knowledge or more likely following false teachings about the Scriptures. The 144K are NOT the "Church" because the Church is no longer here when the 144K are "marked" at the start of the tribulation.

MEAT... "in due season" references knowledge and understanding of Scripture (more precisely prophecy). Bible verses on this imply that the "end-times" shepherds (church/religious leaders) were NOT telling their followers about the time in which they were living. In other words, correctly identifying that they are the final generation. Sure, no one knows when the rapture occurs, but we certainly CAN and SHOULD know when it is very near. The end of Luke 12 parallels the Matthew verses and I hope anyone reading this will read through it. The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will ALWAYS be used in reference to the tribulation BEFORE the 2nd coming NOT the judgments AFTER it! (Very important to understand this)

1 Corinthians 3:1

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

² I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

³ For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

"Milk" is given to babies because they cannot YET handle solid food (meat). New believers are babies surviving on the milk of faith. This is seen in the verses that follow and summarized in...

¹⁰ According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

¹¹ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

¹² Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

¹³ Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

It seems to me that "meat" refers to Obedience in faith, faith is the foundation on which the temple is built, but the walls are built (brick by brick) by our obedience. The "WOOD, HAY AND STUBBLE" (worthless works - probably religious works) in verse 12 are what gets "burned up", while the "GOLD, SILVER, AND PRECIOUS STONES" (righteous obedience) are "refined/purified" by that same fire.

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙

How can this be translated?

Can it be Committee - bride?

On 3/31/2019 at 6:35 PM, pinacled said:

Thank you for the clarity. 

I regain from speaking of certain things.

I would rather share The Noble thoughts and blessings freely received.

 

So, what about the phrase וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ ?

Can this be translated as committee of the bride? If so, it would replace the word "consummation". 

2 hours ago, Marlene S said:

I believe the Foolish Virgins are concerning those who are of the 144,000. The anointing refers to being sealed and receiving the Holy Spirit. They all received the oil. This obviously happens sometime before the coming of the Bridegroom. So while these waited and slept, the wise virgins took their anointing seriously and studied and prayed and learned what they needed in anticipation of the return of the LORD.

The foolish ones took their oil and did not replenish it with study and prayer, Also you must consider the times in which this will happen. Anti-Christ will be in power. Christian literature will be illegal, the 144,000 will be severely persecuted... not a christian friendly world. You may have to find someone who is illegally dealing in Bibles in those days.

The wise Virgins do not have time to pray and study if they have to teach the foolish ones the truth. So they send them to find those who deal in the Word, perhaps you have to pay a lot of money in those days to have the words of Scripture. Of course they were probably getting false scripture in that it did not cause them to come to know our LORD; it did not help their anointing.

So when they return, they do not have the same anointing as the wise ones... and the Bridegroom does not know them.

I think the oil in the lamps is the knowledge they possess, which is dependent upon the study and worship habits of the individual Virgin.

It is also possible that my understanding is flawed, and I realize that after I just read what I wrote. The number of the 144,000 does not change, so it is possible that the parable speaks of another group of virgins.

Also consider the parable that comes right after concerning the 'man traveling to a far-away country and giving talents to his servants to exchange for profit. M.

Matt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins

The key is the word "then" and what is happening at this time. We must go back to the end of chapter 24 to find out...

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What event catches everyone by surprise? The 2nd coming will NOT be unpredictable, in fact if someone studies prophecy correctly they will KNOW the very DAY of His arrival based on the two witnesses account described in Revelation. So, what event could it possibly be? Notice how Noah "entered the ark" but still had to wait for the flood! When the flood actually came, that was when the door was sealed and could NOT be opened except by God.

Chapter 24 continues...

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So, we see two people working together but only one is taken while leaving the other. 

⁴⁵ Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Now, we see the "WISE" servants described - apparently they are given "MEAT" or true teaching. This coincides with other Scripture concerning "milk" - we can go into all that another time.

⁴⁸ But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

⁴⁹ And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

⁵⁰ The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

⁵¹ And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Finally, the "FOOLISH" servants are described. They are under false teachings even to the point of "eating and drinking" with the drunken (whatever could that be referring to? - Rhetorical). The phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" will ALWAYS refer to the tribulation period right before the 2nd coming in ALL PROPHECIES! 

Now, we have the point of which chapter 25 begins - the Rapture. The wise and foolish virgins ALL had lamps and ALL had at least some oil, but ONLY half of them were accepted for the 'reward' of obedience = the rapture. For further evidence, look at verse 10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

The "door was shut". When is the door shut? At the rapture.... but, when was the door opened?

Rev3 depicts the Church Age as having an open door. John 10 says it 4 times. Acts 14:27 "and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles." Rev. 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven:" (START OF THE CHURCH AGE)

Furthermore, the foolish virgins CANNOT be the Jews, because they will NOT accept Jesus until the very end of the tribulation (the acceptance will be the trigger that brings Jesus back). 

The parallel of this is seen in Luke 12:42-47 (faithful, wise servant versus the foolish one). 

On 3/24/2019 at 10:28 PM, OldCoot said:

I disagree.  I see Matthew 24 -25 as referring to the elect corporate entity of Israel as per Isaiah 45:4.   The redeemed elect are long since out of the picture per Isaiah 26, 2 Thessalonians 2, Psalms 27, Isaiah 66, Micah 5, 1  Thessalonians 5. 

The three questions posed by the apostles were the reason for the entire discourse. 1) When will the temple be destroyed? 2) What will be the sign of your coming(return)? And, 3) What will be the sign of the end of the world?

The Apostles (Christians) asked the questions - so, the answer(s) are directed at Christians. The word "elect" only arises in the context of "shortening the days of tribulation". I too agree that the "elect" are the Jews, but, the context of Isa 26 & 66 are the start of the Millenium while the context of Matt 24 and 25 is the time from the first century up to the 2nd coming. 

A sincere question - I had a thought and would like to discuss it openly. 

Could it be that the "removal of sacrifice" as described in prophetic verses be attached somehow to the Rapture in addition to the Cross as the 'bookends' of the Church Age?

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (committee-bride), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The cross occurs halfway through the 70th week, Jesus is removed, the Church Age BEGINS, the Church Age ENDS with the rapture and the remainder of the 70th week begins.

Below, could it be describing the Church and/or Jesus?

Daniel 8: 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

On 3/27/2019 at 9:46 AM, JohnD said:

It occurs to me that the term itself should be defined / debated / discussed.

What IS prophecy?

I gather most assume it is entirely PREDICTIVE prophecy.

Mysticism.

A kind of insight some people have over others (who don't have it).

Before I give the definition I have evidence of...

I wonder what ♥ Worthy Posters ♥ think / feel / believe / know prophecy is.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Prophecy is the ROOT of our 'theology'. How we interpret Scripture encompasses what prophecy IS. 

How the individual interprets the fulfillment of Scripture will determine his/her theology. Unfortunately, people develop theology first - THEN attempt to interpret Scripture BASED on that theology. Scripture is "from God" while theology comes from "man". When the two are at odds with each other - modern 'experts' will go out of the way to protect and defend their theology over and above Scripture even when Scripture itself gives us the interpretation.

You also seem to be asking a separate question concerning "prophets" or people who predict future events (fortunetellers)? I believe this site will not allow anyone to say anything negative about someone who "has a vision or dream" or "hears a voice in their head"? Like the Bereans, we must study Scripture for ourselves and compare what someone says with God's Word. It (and time) are the FINAL say in the matter.

2 minutes ago, pinacled said:

perhaps in the sense that the ___ devour the ----- that is their mother by commiting an unspeakable sin.

Hence the ten crowns of blasphemy..

Are you attempting to compare my King and savior with the abomination of desolation?

Yes, no?

 

 

Not at all!!! I am fighting a similar fight against those who are replacing the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy as being fulfilled by the A/C. 

My point, in this case, is that the Hebrew words MAY (?) be translated as "committee of the bride". In which case it would point to the "rapture" in this part of the sentence instead of (I think it is commonly said to say) "consummation"?  I believe you seem to be knowledgeable about the Hebrew language (as well as many others on this platform) and could possibly look closer at this without pre-conceived ideas about what it says. 

If anybody else wants to weigh in on this, please do. It would be greatly appreciated.

On 3/28/2019 at 12:10 PM, Montana Marv said:

It cannot be:  For anoint the Most Holy is number six on the list, not number one on the list.  They are in their order for a reason.  To anoint the Most Holy follows to bring in everlasting righteousness.  The nation and city of Daniel must first rid them self of transgression, sin and wickedness, then they end vision and prophecy (all according to Zech 13).  Then they are ushered into a time of everlasting righteousness, which is followed by Anointing Jesus Christ as their Messiah so He can be King over them forever.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Zech 13???

Sure, it points to the 2nd coming but I don't see the "anointing" - only the acceptance of Jesus which will end the rebellion/transgression. I just posted more on this topic so I won't repeat it again.

On 3/27/2019 at 11:24 AM, pinacled said:

No, wrong altar.

Hence the whore is devoured by its own.

On 3/27/2019 at 11:24 AM, pinacled said:

DONKEYSPEAKSAGAIN said...

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙

committee of the bride

 

??????????

Can't this be translated as "committee - bride"?

On 3/27/2019 at 7:01 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain.

Um. No. It doesn't count.

1 Samuel 16:6-13 (KJV)

6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said,

"Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him."

7 But the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"The LORD hath not chosen these."

11 And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Are here all thy children?"

And he said,

"There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep."

And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither."

12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said,

"Arise, anoint him: for this is he."

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

And then, we read this:

2 Samuel 2:1-4 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying,

"Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?"

And the LORD said unto him,

"Go up."

And David said,

"Whither shall I go up?"

And he said,

"Unto Hebron."

2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah.

And,

2 Samuel 5:1-3 (KJV)

1 Then came all the tribes of Israel to David unto Hebron, and spake, saying,

"Behold, we are thy bone and thy flesh. 2 Also in time past, when Saul was king over us, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel: and the LORD said to thee, 'Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be a captain over Israel.'" 

3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel.

God's choosing is important and is necessary for the designation of whom He has chosen to be the king, but the people ALSO had to accept him as their king. This they did NOT do for Yeshua` God's Christos - God's Messiah - God's Anointed One.

Shalom,

Of course, they WILL accept Jesus BEFORE the end of the 'week', BUT The actual anointing has already been done. John the Baptist was a true prophet of God and one could argue that a primary purpose for his baptisms was to reveal the Messiah.

Accepting Jesus is associated with the "end of transgression" as outlined below...

"TRANSGRESSION

trans-gresh'-un:

From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin. In the Old Testament pesha`, occurs 80 times, rendered in all versions by "transgression." Its meaning is "rebellion". The word "rebellion" differs from this word in that it may be in the heart, though no opportunity should be granted for its manifestation: "An evil man seeketh only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). 

David Roberts Dungan"

The "rebellion" (or 'transgression') of refusing to accept Jesus as the promised Messiah ENDS in the FUTURE at the END of the 70th week. Interesting that it is listed FIRST, while the "anointing" is listed LAST - but the anointing actually occurs FIRST.

The second and third stipulations say they must "make an end of sins" AND "make reconciliation for iniquity". While the case can be made through using NT teaching that "sin" remains ONLY for as long as unbelief remains,... the idea that reconciliation (payment for sin) is also made in the same way cannot be accepted. The cross (the ONLY acceptable payment for ALL sin) occurs at the midpoint of the 70th week and marks the START of the "transgression". 

The point is, where is this "Anointing" shown in Revelation (or OT prophecies)? The only anointing of Jesus seen in prophecy comes at the START of the 70th week (when Jesus is baptized). 

I find it interesting to read the six stipulations backwards and see the fulfillment in that way as well. 

6) the anointing (baptism - start of the 70th week)

5) sealing up vision and prophecy ('hiding' the Messiah from the Jews)

4) bring in everlasting righteousness (presenting the Gospel) (this can be seen as happening at the end of the 70th week, but the problem with that is ALL prophecy DOES NOT end at the START of the millennium - everlasting righteousness is NOT seen in prophecy until possibly the very end of the millennium, so, within the context of the 70 weeks, we must conclude it is referring to something else - something 'Spiritual' rather than physical)

3) make reconciliation for iniquity (the cross) 

2) make an end of sin (faith in Jesus - as represented by the Church Age) 

1) finish the transgression (Jews finally accept Jesus = end of tribulation period)(The ONLY 'thing' left for the Jews or the city to accomplish is the acceptance of Jesus)

On 3/24/2019 at 9:08 PM, pinacled said:

וְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית ׀ זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֤ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵֽם׃ (פ)

During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner [of the altar] will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down upon the appalling thing.”

 

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙

committee of the bride

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

  9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Jesus will not be the King of Israel and sit on David's Throne until he has subjects, and they must anoint Him as their King. 

Acts 10: 

³⁷ That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

³⁸ How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power

As you have said... These six task are all for Israel to fulfill and or receive. 

Although it is actually the "people" and/or the city of Jerusalem that are to "accomplish" them. Jesus is Jewish and even though it happened outside the city (and the Jewish nation still rejects Him), it still counts as fulfillment of "anoint the most holy".