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DonkeySpeaksAgain

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  1. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    You have already accepted a GAP, all I am doing is moving that gap. That leaves only 3.5 years left for the prophecies in Rev. You are dead set on making the 70th week about Satan instead of Jesus. I am dead set on making it about Jesus instead of Satan. You pick your side - but I will stay with Jesus. Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26. Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27. IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross?
  2. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    Zech 10:3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. 4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. Dan. 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..." The key word here is "commandment" which is probably better translated as "decree" or "order" is specifically focusing on rebuilding Jerusalem and NOT the walls. There are 4 possible dates (538BC, 520BC, 458BC, & 445 BC). The first two were solely focused on building the wall and the foundation of the temple, however Ezra 7:25 (the third date - 458BC) specifies that they be allowed to set up judges (a government with the power to enact and enforce its own laws). The last one was written for the "gates of the palace, the wall of the city (notice its now referred to as a CITY), and a house for Nehemiah". The next problem is the dates we use are different from the Jewish calendar. I used rosettacalendar.com to convert the dates into Jewish years then after adding 483, reconverted back into our calendar and arrived at the following dates for the four in question. The end of the 69th week (or time of the "covenant being confirmed -not initiated") then would be respectively (55BC, 37BC, 27AD, & 39AD). Again, the first two are way too early and the last one is way too late. Notice also, the prophecy was made for "years" NOT "days" so this should be the proper and logical way to interpret it. Adding another 3 years would bring us to 30Ad as the year of the cross. But, what other Biblical evidence is available to either prove or disprove these dates? The Bible gives clues as follows: 1) the birth year occurred during a census. In Feb. of 2 BC Caesar Augustus was given special honors and named "Pater Patriae" or "Father of the Country" and so a census would have been ordered in 3BC. 2) The baptism occurred when Jesus was "about 30" which is the year men become "Rabbi's" or teachers. Also, Luke 3:1 says it occurred in the 15th year of Tiberius. He was named "co-Caesar" in 13AD and we must also keep in mind that the Jewish year BEGINS in the fall. That would put his 15th year as beginning in the fall of 26AD. 3) the Ministry of Jesus spanned at least 3 years - evidenced by three separate references to three different Passovers attended by Jesus as written in the Book of John (2:13, 6:4, & 12:1) 4) the cross occurred during the rule of Pontius Pilate (26-36 AD) and on the "DAY BEFORE PASSOVER" (Nisan 14) which can fall on ANY day of the week! Plus we have to account for 3 days AND 3 nights in the grave. Thus, a Wednesday Nisan 14 is the only logical date for the cross. In addition, there are NO Nisan 14's on ANY Thursday during the reign of Pilate - so that won't work either. 30AD / a Wednesday is the only logical place for the cross. Now how do ALL these dates work together ? Jesus was born in 2 or 3BC. Baptized in 27 AD (A JUBILEE YEAR!) at the age of ~30, then killed on the cross on Wed. Nisan 14 of 30AD. All Biblically accurate and without any contradiction. The END of the 69th week was the Baptism (NOT the cross or entry into Jerusalem). The 70th week began at the baptism (start of Jesus' ministry) when He was ANOINTED by God and CONFIRMED the existing covenant as prophesied. This year was also notable in that it was a Jubilee year!
  3. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    No, the Romans destroyed the city. That is the plain sense. The prince to come is the only reference to the Messiah "returning" to earth. This prince to come can also refer to the Holy Spirit whom John wrote about. Remember, it was the "people" of the prince to come that the verse is referring to. The Christian movement would primarily move to the North (through Europe) and was even prevented from moving Westward. "As lightning from the east to the west" so the Holy Spirit (the White horse) moved across the globe. The 4 horses in Zech 6 matchup with the seals. Rev. starts with the white one, but here it starts with the red. The black one goes North and the "spirit" (the black horse) finds rest in the North - so, it stops and settles in there (Rome). In Rev. the white horse "follows after" the black one but continues moving West. Just one look at the history of the Church and the movements of the Holy Spirit and you will see that it has continued steadily Westward ever since. And where does Jesus return to Jerusalem? - The East gate. Anyway, the black horse (eventually called the Catholic Church) and her history closely resemble the descriptions laid out in Daniel 11 (the Christian Church starts out in verse 32 right after the desolation of Jerusalem in 70ad - vs 31). Vs 32-33 shows the early church and ends with the phrase "for many days" meaning this will cover a long time. Vs. 34 on goes further on in time, and vs 35 depicts persecution as seen by those trying to stop the back-sliding going on within the primarily dominant church (Catholic). Notice here is yet another phrase extending the "end" even further down the time line. So, there is actually a very long time in history spanned over those last few verses. The same can be seen in Matthew 24 (if you look for it). Now vs. 36 starts talking about a king that is magnifying himself above God with verses that closely match the Catholic papacy. THEN we see the A/C entering the picture (but notice that there is no longer any mention of the AoD) in verse 40, Daniel writes "at the time of the end", and ends the chapter with him "pitching his tents near the holy mountain". Then we see the "rapture- or resurrection" verse Dan. 12:1.
  4. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    I agree that private interpretation is a grievous error, but it is not me. I will change my opinion when someone can prove the assumption you have made concerning the 6 things can occur outside of the 70 weeks timeframe. The prophecy lays out a specific time frame in which the city and the people must accomplish those 6 things. You are placing the cross OUTSIDE of the 70 weeks. How do they make "reconciliation for iniquity" without the cross? Yes, no doubt the 2nd coming is very important to fulfill the prophecy, but trying to incorporate 7 years into the Revelation prophecies cannot be done without encountering contradictions within whatever outline you wish to use. The details will prove that. As the details within the Daniel prophecy as already proven. Maybe you care to show the calculations concerning the end of the 69th week/start of the 70th? Like all the rest, you too have relied on passed down false teachings of a 7 year tribulation without even bothering to verify the calculations for yourself.
  5. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent. The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure. The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this: Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible 26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt: 27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!" The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach." Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27: 27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate! The timing of the elders rising is still at the same time - the earthquake came right after He ascended. No big deal. We see in ch. 4 = 24 elders, 4 beasts, and seven lamps/lights in the throne room. The beasts are giving honor, glory, and thanks at this time, and then later saying that Jesus is worthy to receive honor, glory, and power. That means "power" is due but not yet received. The start of ch. 5 says NO ONE in heaven was found worthy to open the scroll (written on BOTH sides). Up to this point, Jesus is NOT yet in heaven. So, likely this marks the time He was in the grave? Anyway, no worries, the "lion" has conquered and He has 7 horns (got to be the 7 churches) and 7 eyes (spirits). Verse 9 has those in heaven now singing a NEW song (the new covenant of redemption through the cross). Verse 10 says He made us (on earth) kings and priests. This is directed to the start of the Church Age. The Next verse now ONLY adds myriads of angels to the elders and the 4 beasts. Now they say that Jesus is worthy of receiving "power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." That means these things will be given but not all at once, as we will soon see. Next we see something else ADDED to the accolades : "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power". NOW we have the accolades from ch. 4 given to Jesus PLUS "blessing". So, this marks a special point on the prophecy time line. Now, we have three distinct points accounted for on the prophecy time line = the cross (honor and glory and thanks), The ascension (blessing), and 70ad (power). I say power because the power is transferred out of the hands of the Jews and into the hands of Jesus(the Church). We are (were) made the royal priesthood in the first century - whether you say 30ad or 70ad makes little difference, the point is the transfer of power has occurred. It is NOT referring to the rapture. It is specifically mentioned as pertaining to the believers even in the 1st century. Rev. 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" (the earliest accounts in Revelation) Even if you say these things start at the end of the first century, it does NOT change or affect how the things in this post are explained and laid out. The visions (especially ch. 4-6) can still be attached to the events going all the way back to the cross. The Christian era began at the cross, but the Jewish one would not be "interrupted" for another 40 years. This overlap needs to be accounted for both in the Daniel verses and also in Revelation.
  6. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Mid Trib rapture anyone?

    Thanks, I'll look into that. But, even if they are the same word, wouldn't that just give further evidence to what I am suggesting? The 70th week begins at the baptism which is the confirmation of the covenant with the Jews. Now, we get into something else when we think of the New Covenant to the entire world. Does it begin with the cross which occurs at the midway point of the 70th week (the Old Covenant being interrupted) or also at the baptism? Interesting
  7. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    The "he" is not in the text and inserted by the translator. The subject remains the Messiah as evidenced by a previous post. Verse 26 and 27 are one continuous thought (sentence). Verse 26 starts out with the phrase "and after" meaning the rest speaks about the 70th week. All conjunctions after this are only the word "and" all by itself. The things spoken of at the end of verse 26 refer to the desolation of Israel and the diaspora (as I believe you also agreed to). What is labeled as a separate sentence (vs 27) is merely going back to the start of the 70th week. Halfway through, the cross again is highlighted as the breaking away point or gap in the 70 weeks. The 24 elders are NOT the Church. Remember, the OT saints were resurrected WITH Jesus in the first century. They would be present in the throne room after the ascension.
  8. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Bible Trivia questions

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that ____ ____ __ him
  9. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    This is why I am focused on the 70th week. I believe everything you are assuming has a basis in the 70th week starting at or near the cross. What if that can be proven incorrect? What if the 69th week ended a few years earlier? Would that change anything for you? There are 6 specific purposes that must be accomplished within the 70 weeks time period. The prophecy states the time frame is "determined" or set. The city and people must accomplish those 6 things within the 70 weeks. Putting the cross OUTSIDE of that 70 weeks time frame means the cross cannot be used as fulfillment for any of it. Even just saying the cross comes AFTER the 69th week and then saying there is still the full 7 years (one week) remaining, means the Jews and Jerusalem will be able to atone for sins some other way than the cross. Oh Yes!! Eureka, I finally understand what all of you are saying .... The temple is rebuilt and the Jews will reinstate the sacrifices and temple worship and that will then fulfill the requirements set forth in Dan. 9:24. NOW, I get it! What was I thinking? You have all convinced me - the Jews don't need the cross. I don't really think that last part.
  10. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    None of this is logical proof. Assumption 1: the A/C confirms a covenant. Yes, the bow in Genesis 9 is a covenant between God and mankind. Now, tell me where else in Scripture does the A/C "confirm" God's covenant (any covenant). There are however numerous verses showing Jesus as the one connected to this very covenant. Assumption 2: The first seal is the A/C. The conquering part matches what we see concerning Christians throughout the NT. The word for 'conquering' and 'overcoming' are translated from the exact same word. So, the connection to the Holy Spirit and the believers during the Church Age is already forming. The "bow" as you say could be referencing a covenant or it could be a form of judgment. As in point 1, confirmation of a covenant is much more likely associated with Jesus. This bow has NO ARROWS. This is often pointed out as a reference to peace. And, yes, Jesus came NOT to judge, but to bring peace. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church after Jesus ascended and (as we see in the NT) will be the method of judgment (acceptance or rejection of Jesus). The white horse is also significant as symbolizing something holy and pure. Sure, the A/C will pretend to be righteous, but this horse is not speckled or discolored in any way. The A/C WILL, however, assert punishment (have arrows). There is much more that could be said on this and it all points to the first seal opening being the Holy Spirit's release into the world to draw people to the truth. Rev 6:1 "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see." A white horse, a bow (no arrows), a crown, and going out to 'conquer'. Notice it is ONE of the four beasts that were seen introducing EACH of the first four seals. The first is not mentioned, but by process of elimination... it is the "LION" (the true gospel) BOW: Ps. 7:7-12 (speaking of JESUS) "7 So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes, therefore, return thou on high. 8 The Lord shall judge the people: judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me. 9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. 10 My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart. 11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12 If he turns not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow and made it ready. 13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors." A 'BOW' is seen as an instrument of judgment in the OT. Before the cross it was the Law, but now it is Jesus and the Holy Spirit that will 'judge' the world. The "CROWN" is in Ps. 8:5-6 (about JESUS) "5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" Notice again, the "glory and Honor" associated with the cross/resurrection (and given to Jesus in Rev. 1:6). 'Dominion over the world' & 'put all things under his feet(footstool)' are two familiar phrases. Also, a crown is seen in the letters to the churches as being given to someone who has gotten victory of death. What sort of victory did Satan have or will he have? It can't be power because that is something symbolized as a 'horn'. Jesus has 7 horns in Rev. 5:6. Zech 6 should be linked to these horses, but look further into the book... Zech 9:9-10 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth." Look at verse 10 all by itself - you may think this refers to the antichrist, but verse 9 clearly says this is about JESUS! Horses are the spirits or messengers of God. Jesus is cut off, but the Holy Spirit AND the Law are removed from Israel and are replaced with the gospel/testimony of Jesus being preached to the world during the Church Age. Zech 6 says the order is red, black, white, bay (with grisled - strong- chariot). Islam moved East (of Jerusalem) founded around 300ad, Christianity moved North and the black one (Catholicism stopped and headquartered in Rome around 600ad). The white horse (true gospel) followed after the black one, but continued moving west, the bay horse (spiritual confusion and is guided by a very strong horse) went South and wandered the earth (scattered).
  11. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Mid Trib rapture anyone?

    I have been over this many times, and NO ONE has been able to prove a 7 year tribulation. The idea stems from a false interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel. Small details will trip up anyone trying to make sense of Revelation in the context of a 7 year tribulation. When you understand that there are ONLY 3.5 years left of the 70th week, then Revelation (and ALL other prophecy books in the Bible) will finally make sense. The so-called mid-trib is actually pre-trib and pre-wrath then becomes mid-trib and post-trib is well they may as well be Amillennialists. First, you already know that Jewish literature doesn't always flow chronologically. They will often state the general first, and then go into the specifics afterward. A case in point is... Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV) The first verse is merely a synopsis of what is to follow, and verses 6-8 and verses 9-10 go into the details of how this was accomplished. This also happens in Matt. 24 (prophecy revealed by Jesus) - He outlines out to the end first, then goes back and inserts details about the AoD and start of the Church Age before reaching the rapture, tribulation and 2nd coming. The same thing happens in... Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. All those "ands" connect everything associated with the 70th week which begins in verse 26 (AFTER the 69th week ends). Verse 27 is NOT a separate sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 26. Gabriel first stated the synopsis for the whole passage in verse 24; then, he went into more detail in verses 25-27. However, it happened again in 25-27: First, he stated the synopsis in verses 25-26 (which are the details for verse 24), and then, he went into more detail in 27. He made the statement, "after 62 Sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself," and then showed how that would happen in verse 27. IF the final Seven begins immediately after the end point of the 62 Sevens, as we assume the 62 Sevens did right after the first 7 Sevens, then the Messiah's death would be WITHIN the final Seven. Removing the cross to a point OUTSIDE of the "determined" 70 weeks would mean the cross cannot be used as part of its fulfillment. This is the one point everyone just seems to think is totally irrelevant. How can the 6 purposes for the 70 weeks be fulfilled without the cross? Now, the "prince that shall come" CANNOT be the "antichrist." Here's why: In English, we know that the object of the preposition cannot participate in the sentence as a subject or an object in the main thought of the sentence. Since it is not the subject of the sentence, then it cannot be the antecedent of the word "he." Now, if the "he" was part of the prepositional phrase in which the object of the preposition resides, THEN it could be its antecedent. The same thing is basically true in Hebrew: In Hebrew, there is a construct called a "noun construct state" in which two nouns sitting back to back affect one another. The second noun modifies the first noun, but the first noun can be the subject or object in the sentence. The second noun cannot participate in the sentence's main structure. The Hebrew of verses 26 and 27 (transliterated) is this: Dani'el 9:26-27 Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible 26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt: 27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: The "`am naagiyd" are the two nouns back to back, and they translate to "[the] people of [the] prince." The first word "`am" ("people") can be a subject or an object in the sentence, but NOT "naagiyd!" The sentence technically doesn't end in verse 26 but continues through verse 27. There are no nouns attached to the verbs in verse 27; therefore, the word "he" is supplied THREE TIMES in verse 27. To find the subject for the verbs, which would technically be the "antecedent" for the pronoun "he" in verse 27, one must go back to verse 26 to the word "Maashiyach." Thus, it is the "Maashiyach" or "Messiah" who performs the verbs in verse 27: 27 And the Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the sacrifice and the oblation are given cause to cease, but for the continued abominations it shall become DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. It's not the "anti-messiah"; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who confirms the (Davidic) covenant; it's the Messiah HIMSELF who "causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (see Hebrews 10), and it's the Messiah HIMSELF who makes the city (and Daniel's people) desolate! Now are ready to go into the calculations for the end of the 69th week/ start of the 70th week? Hint: it occurs at the baptism NOT the cross.
  12. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Why Pretrib Logic Fails

    Just wondering what you make of Isaiah 57:1? This appears right before the tribulation judgments.
  13. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Need advice

    So much great advice. It really does help to have fellow believers to confide in - "fellowship" is touched on so often in the NT for this very reason. Obedience is often misinterpreted as legalism. Look into the OT and study how God interacted with the Jews and see that the sacrifices covered their sins, and yet God still required their obedience or else they were punished. They had faith and a method of forgiveness for their sins in the temple system. God was very patient and never stopped loving - even when bringing judgment down upon them. Today, we have faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins. We are no longer judged by the Law and so freed from it. However, just like the OT times, God requires more from us than just believing in Him. We are not free to go about doing whatever we want because of that freedom. That would be a False faith - I hope everyone would agree (but you would be surprised). Belief or faith does "save" us. But it is "obedience" that brings us (Heb. 5:9) "eternal salvation" - again, just like the Jews in the OT. This is where the "issues" come into play that causes great debates. Most of the NT speaks of "works" that should match our "faith". This is NOT talking about obedience to the Law, but rather obedience to the commands of Jesus. He spoke often about the heart and how we must love God and love one another. All that said, I get a sudden insight that maybe you are 'seeking' salvation and expecting God to just hand it over when instead you need to be seeking God. The Bible is the closest link to God we have, and intense study and continuous reading along with constant prayer will bring you closer to God. And, also give you the answers that you seek.
  14. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    Churches today

    Greetings Brother Plavious, Couldn't resist the salutation (sounds very Biblical with your name!) Anyway, One look at Biblical accounts of prophets "judging" the church leaders by telling them they are not obeying God properly tells me that church leaders have ALWAYS turned away from God and done things for themselves instead of God. It is just in our nature. Once someone (or group of people) is given power/authority over a group of people (no matter how small), that power engulfs them. Do you ever see a church admit to and change their doctrine? It is very rare, and when it is done, it is NOT done for the better. They would lose a lot of patrons and their money. They would lose the respect of the patrons - if an error is admitted, then what else is not true? They are stuck and almost forced to stay on the track that got them there. Likewise, it is a miracle when someone leaves a different religion or denomination for the true gospel of faith and obedience to Jesus. Something that generally only happens after intense and deliberate study of the Bible. That said, an old fashioned Bible church is quite hard to find in most cities. I live in an area with 100's of churches within 50 miles of me but cannot find one that is not inundated with at least one or two false doctrines. I have to settle for the best I can find and realize that they will NOT change or correct an error that has already been accepted. We are each responsible for our own salvation. The sluggard will rely on the church to save them.
  15. DonkeySpeaksAgain

    3-1/2 year trib/ NOT 7

    Sorry, but the topic is "3 -1/2 year tribulation - NOT 7"
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