The Light

There will be Christians on earth, but it won't be the Church. No. The Church will be gone, as we are gone before the seals are opened. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel has it's eyes opened. Romans 11 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

At the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal the dead and alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. (1 Cor 15) At the rapture of the Church, the dead are raised first. They return to heaven. When the Lord returns for the alive that remained He will bring the dead with Him. 1 Thes 4 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. No sir. Rising from the dead means rising from the dead. At that time the body is changed from corruptible to incorruptible. However, the end result of the rapture of the Church is the kings and priests in heaven in Revelation 5. You seem to be grasping at straws here. I am not contending that rising from the dead means rising to heaven. These are things you are saying because there are no legitimate arguments. If you want to see being caught up to heaven look here. 1 Thes 4 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I think the Word speaks for itself that in when the dead rise corruptible changes to incorruptible. In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive change in the twinkling of an eye. In 1 Thes 4, the dead rise first. These are scriptural facts that you seem to be having trouble accepting. Read what it says, accept what it says. In 1 Thes 4 the dead rise first, meaning rise from the dead, just as Christ rose from the dead. There is nothing complicated here. These are things that you are attempting to twist around. I am perfectly happy to read what the Word says and accept what it says. Maybe this will clear things up for you. 1 Corinthians 15 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. When the body is raised it receives an incorruptible body. Additionally your logic is flawed. In 1 Corinthians 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Then you make this statement: 'Rise' in 1 Thess. 4 does not mean they are 'changed' first...Why? Because it puts you in direct opposition to what Paul said that we shall all be changed at the same time. But I showed you above that when the dead rise, the change to an incorruptible body has already happened, showing your error. Secondly you attempt to use 1 Corinthians 15 which says the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye to prove that the dead cannot rise first in 1 Thes 4 even though the Word says they do. That's a no no. The scripture is not wrong, you are. Which leads to the obvious conclusion that 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 cannot be talking about the same event. 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about when the Lord Himself comes for the Church which occurs before the seals are opened. And 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about when the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal. And neither of these is the second advent when the Lord sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

Paul says when He comes because He is coming. There is a rapture when the Lord HIMSELF comes when those that are worthy can escape all these things that will come to pass. These things that are listed are the seals which is the tribulation. Luke 21 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. It is highly recommended that you watch, as we have been instructed, for the blessed hope.

Neither scripture refers to the second advent. 1 Thes 4 when the Lord Himself comes is the rapture of the Church which happens before the seals are opened. 1 Corinthians 15 refers to the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. Jesus will remain in the Clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Revelation 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. The second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His kingdom. That happens toward the end of the trumpets of wrath. That would be impossible. When the dead rise first they already have their incorruptible body. So the change of the dead and alive cannot happen at the same time in 1 Thes 4. And we know the dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Cor 15, in the twinkling of an eye. Therefore these scriptures cannot be the same event. The second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds for the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Whereas, the second advent is when Jesus returns to the earth for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom on earth. See the 7th seal at the end of the trumpets. Here we see MANY are raised at the end of the great tribulation. This happens at the 6th seal. This alone proves what you are saying is incorrect. The second advent occurs at the end of the trumpets in the 7th seal. Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. It seems you are skipping the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs at the sixth seal. This is the second coming when Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

No we don't that at all. We know the rapture will happen BEFORE the seals are opened. See Revelation 5. We also know that the seals are the 70th week of Daniel. Additionally, we know that the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Daniel 9 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. We can also conclude that part of Israel will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Romans 11 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. From 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 we can determine that the gathering happens before the day of Christ which is the day of the Lord. From Mark 13 we can determine that the gathering is a gathering from heaven and earth which is not the rapture of the Church. Mark 13 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The Church is gathered from heaven as we will be raptured before the seals are opened. It is the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, Israel that is gathered from the earth. We know that the 144,000 are first fruits of this gathering. Revelation 14 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And here is the harvest after the first fruits have been gathered. Revelation 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. This of course happens BEFORE the wrath of God (which is the day of the Lord) as we saw in 2 Thes 2:1-3 That puts the gathering at the 6th seal.

Or else I will have to sort through pages and pages and pages of out context responses that have nothing to do with addressing the question. Again.

What I see is you asked a legitimate question which I answered. Of course you were unable to address the truth so you started in with the same old blind nonsense that the pretrib rapture is the work of Satan. And of course the usual bombardment of out of context scriptures and other such nonsense.

Totally agrees with Paul. At the second rapture the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. At the first rapture when the Lord Himself comes, the dead in Christ rise first. They go to heaven. Then when the Lord returns for the alive that remained, He will bring the dead with him as the alive do not precede the dead. So it is impossible for the dead and alive to be changed at the same time. 1 Thes 4 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. Additionally, the Feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated every year in the 1000 years and there are trumpets blown on the Feast of Tabernacles so the trump blown by the 7th angel is not the last trump. Additionally, when Paul wrote this, John had not written Revelation so there was no known 7th trumpet. We never saw Paul address the Thessalonians and say sorry for the confusion about the Last Trump. Eventually John will write Revelation and it will all make sense. Nobody questioned what the Last Trump was as it is blown every year on the Feast of Trumpets. All Jews know what the Last Trump is. It is the Gentiles that don't know. Or we can gain understanding by taking a look at Daniel. Daniel 12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. The rapture of the Church is before the seals are opened, which is before the tribulation. The second rapture, the gathering from heaven and earth happens immediately after the tribulation. Why do you think that there are 144,000 first fruits. They are first fruits of the second harvest. Since we know who the first fruits are it's pretty east to determine who the harvest is. This harvest occurs immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. There are two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. Also there is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides. At one coming the Lord Himself comes. At the another coming He sends His angels. At one coming it is like the days of Noah and at one coming it is like the days of Lot. At one coming the dead are changed first and then the alive that remain are changed. At another coming the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. At one coming the Lord comes at the trump of God or voice of God. At another coming He sends His angels at the Last Trump blown on the Feast of Trumpets. No foundation is being changed. Just common sense should tell you there are two comings. Those that are gathered from the earth at the Last Trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets are all changed in the twinkling of an eye, both the dead and alive. Those that are raptured before the seals are opened, before the tribulation, the Church are changed separately. The dead in Christ rise first and the alive that remained are changed later. You confuse the second coming, when Jesus comes to the clouds, which is the gathering from heaven and earth, BEFORE wrath, with the second advent when Jesus returns with the armies of heaven to the earth. These are two separate events. The Lord Himself will come for the Church. The Church is seen in heaven in Revelation 5. Then there are first fruits, the 144,000. When the Lord comes at the 6th seal, there will be a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church will be gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman Israel, the tribes across the earth will be gathered from the earth. Revelation 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. The second rapture happens at the 6th seal ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD.

Oh OK. You figured out you were wrong.

Please feel free to explain how the sixth seal has anything to do with Revelation 9. Try to stay focused and address the statement.

I already proved what you asked me to prove. And as usual, instead of addressing the scriptural proofs that were provided, you just start posting a bunch of unrelated nonsense. Try addressing the facts for once.

Sorry, I'm a little slow. I couldn't figure what was going on. It's a little clearer now. I think I have spotted the problem. You need to come to the Lord as a child, not study scripture as a child.

No, it wasn't me. I'm smarter than that, as I understand that Revelation shows the same event from 2 different angles, not 3.

Revelation 9 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 6TH SEAL. Revelation 9 is located in the 7th seal.

It is you that are making all the wrong conclusions. WHERE DO I SAY HIS KINGDOM IS SET UP AT THE 6TH SEAL???????? His kingdom is set up at the 7th trumpet. And yes, Jesus does return at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and star. Revelation 13 is not in the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Here is the return of Jesus at the 6th seal. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, but you don't understand that. Matthew 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Sorry. Christ returns at the 6th seal for a harvest and Christ returns at the 7th seal to set up His kingdom. NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. The seals are NOT OPEN. And the 5th seal is the great tribulation. You are wrong on every single point. And I was wrong that the color change was blocking the software from working as you used red and i was able to answer separate points.

Dead and alive are changed at the same time in 1 Corinthians 15. Dead rises first so the dead are changed first in 1 Thes 4 Two different scriptures. Two different raptures.

Paul said the dead and alive are changed at the same time In 1 Corinthians 15. But that is not the case in 1 Thes 4. The dead in Christ rise first which means that they are changed 1st because when the rise, they are changed from corruptible to a non corruptible body. So you are in error.

Ok. Everything is rolling along perfectly. You understand that the untimely figs being cast down at the sixth seal are the fallen angels. Then you quote verses in Revelation 13 and make this comment: "This comes AFTER the mountains have been moved out of their places...." This is where the train falls off the track. You see that the Lord returns at the 6th seal, but you are not understanding that the events in Revelation 13 occur earlier in the seals, meaning before the 6th seal. So I'm telling you that the events in Revelation 13 happen before the 6th seal. Can we prove that? Sure. So you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal BEFORE WRATH. Then the 7th seal is opened. The trumpets of wrath go in order. Then we come to the 7th trumpet. What happens at the 7th trumpet? Revelation 10 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. At the 7th trumpet, it over. The mystery of God is finished. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, what do we see: Revelation 11 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. So at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. READ WITH UNDERSTANDING. That means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth. That mean Armageddon is over. That means when you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. The book of Revelation reads like Genesis 7. We are given three accounts of Noah loading the animals. We are also given three accounts of the flood. However, Noah only loads the animals one time and there is only one flood. When you are reading Revelation, you are given 2 accounts of the tribulation (Revelation 6 is one account of the tribulation and Revelation 13 and 14 is another account of the tribulation). You are also given two accounts of the wrath of God. The seventh seal containing the trumpets is one account of Gods wrath and Revelation 15 and 16 are the other account of Gods wrath. And just like the three flood accounts, there is different information in each account.

This platform we are using from what I can tell will not allow me to answer your questions, step by step, because when you change color such as RED or any other color but black it blocks that feature. I use blue in some of my posts so I am probably blocking others from addressing the post point by point. That said you post was very well explained and in context. I see the area I need to address and will do so in a different post.

The second coming does occur at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is the 5th seal, great tribulation. "until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

These events are in scripture and are in total agreement with what Paul said. There are two raptures and it does not violate what Paul is saying. You disregard that Paul says the dead in Christ rise first. The scripture says that at this rising the body is changed from corruptible to uncorruptible. If this happens first then it is impossible for the alive believers "that remain" to be changed at the same time. However, at the second rapture, the dead and alive are changed at the same time. In the pretrib rapture, the Lord Himself comes for the bride. In the rapture of the 12 tribes, which is part of the gathering from heaven and earth, the Lord sends His angels. Two separate events. Every man is his order. First fruits and then they that are Christ's at His coming. Christ comes for the Church. They return to heaven. Heaven receives Him. See Revelation 4 for 24 elders with crowns showing Jesus has come and His reward is with Him and Revelation 5 for the kings and priests of the Church........before the seals are opened. Then we have first fruits of 144,000. Every man in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming as Jesus comes for the harvest at the 6th seal. And heaven must receive Him UNTIL the restitution of all things spoken of by the prophets. That is why you have a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal. The sun and the moon are not darkened before pretrib, but they are darkened at the second harvest at the 6th seal. Revelation 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Jesus is talking to the Jews when He talks of the AOD. They are to flee to the mountains......to their place of safety that is prepared for them. This is FACT. Further........ Matthew 10 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Please don't base your argument on what some guy named Walvoord has to say. Lets base things on what scripture says. First off Jesus does talk to the Gentiles when He says.... Luke 21 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Daniel 9 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. The people of Daniel are not the ones that can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS. It is the Gentiles whose fullness comes in at the pretrib rapture that can escape all these things......AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. Romans 11 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. In summary, there are two raptures. One for the Church before the seals are opened and one for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal second coming of Jesus. Only the nation of Israel and unbelievers will be on earth when the wrath of God occurs as we are not appointed to wrath. And those of the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection, will obviously be protected during the wrath of God. Isaiah 26 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Now let's prove something else false that you are claiming. You say the there is only one resurrection and it happens at the 7th trumpet. The seventh trumpet is at the END OF WRATH as proven by the fact that Jesus sets up His kingdom on eath at the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. In Isaiah 26 shown above we see that the people are told to enter their chambers until the indignation is past, which we see is the world being punished. However, note the verse prior.......... Isaiah 26 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. So we see that some dead are raised BEFORE the wrath of God, not at the 7th trumpet at the end of the wrath of God. We can prove this other ways also. So the claim that there is one resurrection and it is at the 7th trumpet........IS FALSE.......as proven by scripture.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord but He remains in the clouds. This happens immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God The second advent happens at the end of Wrath when Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

The gathering from heaven and earth before the days of the Lord takes place at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Here is the gathering at the 6th seal. Matthew 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a barley harvest when the dead in Christ rise. There is a wheat harvest when the alive that remained. There is a fruit harvest at the 6th seal where the righteous are raptured and the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. Revelation 14 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And there is a judgement at the 7th trumpet.

And I am agreeing with you here. There is a rapture at the 6th seal and it is not the pre trib rapture of the Church. It will happen for those that are watching and ready. Luke 21 6 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.