The Light

Yeah we can find that other translations usually say lots of different things. Which is the very reason to use the KVJ.

Not sure how you see no men in heaven when we can see the 24 elders are there and what they say indicates that the church is there also.

Whoa, struck a nerve, and you are way off by saying that the timing of chapter 5 is when Jesus ascended. You have absolutely no proof of that statement. In fact, your statement is easily proven in error. In Rev 4 we see 24 elders have their crowns. No way they can have their crowns before Jesus ascends. Rev 4 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. So what you are saying has been proven false. That pretty much undermines your arguments.

Greetings LA, No sir, I am not assuming that the 24 elders are the church. The 24 elders say they are redeemed out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. For them to say that, there would have to be every kindred and tongue and people and nation present with them. That would be the church. Spockian logic is all that is needed.

What are the elders doing in heaven? They were obviously raptured as they were redeemed from the earth. Additionally for the 24 elders to be redeemed from every kindred and tongue and people and nation there would have to be more than 24 of them. Pure logic Mr Spock. The twenty four elders have received their crowns and cast them before the throne, same as we will receive our crowns. This definitely is the church in Rev 5. Revelation Man noted that in an earlier post. What you see in Rev 7 is both the Jews and the Gentiles. Jesus will bring both folds into one. John 10 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. So in summary: The church is raptured pre trib as they can escape all the things that will come to pass. The church needs to be ready as they will not know when the master will return. The church will raptured at the first trump, the left horn. God then turns his attention to the Jew, the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, for the 70th week of Daniel. He has promised that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in he will remove the blindness from their eyes. They will be raptured at the last trump, the right horn. They will see the things that are happening on the earth and are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. That day will not take them unaware. The tribulation and 70th week will be complete as shown in Matt 24, and then the wrath of God begins as shown in Rev 6. The remnant of the nation of Israel that flees as they are told to when they see the abomination of desolation goes through the wrath of God in a place of safety. None of the people of God, which is the church, the twelve tribes who have their blindness removed, or the remnant that flees goes through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath. Pure logic Mr Spock.

Hi LA, i don’t think what you are saying is correct because we already see the church in heaven during Rev 5. Rev 5 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. The church will escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man. Luke 21 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The final 7 years is the 70th week of Daniel. The church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins via the pretribulation rapture. The 70 week is when God deals with the Jews which occurs after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Daniel 9 says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people. That would be the Jews.

I know you don’t think that the coming in Rev 6 = Matt 24 coming, and yet God clearly sets the timeline. Rev 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Matthew 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. God clearly gives you an absolute timeline starting point, but you won’t listen to Him because it makes no sense to you. I have already shown you why your timeline is in error. Look again. Rev 5 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. The church is clearly in heaven before before the tribulation begins. As for you showing that Armageddon occurs at Jesus coming in Matt 24, you have not shown any proof of that. All we can see is there is a gathering. Matt 24 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Conclusion: Since we see the church in heaven in Rev 5 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see the sun moon and stars event in both Matthew 24 and Rev 6 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see a gathering just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Armageddon your timeline cannot be correct. Just plain facts and logic Mr Spock. i would start by trying to figure out what the church is doing in heaven in Rev 5.

As we can see in Rev 4 and 5 the church is in heaven. They have come out of every nation and tribe. Rev 5 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth Then we see in Matt 24 and Luke 21 another gathering. There is no butt kicking going on. The wrath of God is getting ready to BEGIN as clearly shown in Rev 6. Armageddon does not happen until the end of the wrath of God. And yet there are people told to look up their redemption draws nigh. Luke 21 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Remember these verses: Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc. Then they will see the coming of the son of man etc angels gather etc. This says immediately after the tribulation of those days. I told you I believe that the church will be raptured pre trib. When we go to Rev 4 and 5 we can clearly see that the church has come out of all nations and tribes etc. I would post the verses but I am on my phone. In summary these are two separate events. The scriptures you posted regard the pre trib rapture when the Lord himself comes. In Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth right before the wrath of God begins in Rev 6

I see those passages as the gathering that Paul spoke of in Thessalonians right before the wrath of God begins. There are several proofs we can see. 1st the passage says that the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Second the timeline of the sun, moon and stars can be seen in Rev 6. I believe all the tribes are mouning because they see that Jesus is real and they realize that the wrath of God is about to begin.

Well Spock, no offense taken at all. I told you that I read about half the posts so I was well aware that you were not interested in talking about a post trib rapture. To clear things up I believe in a pretribulation rapture. You say you are interested in people that can show your timeline is rubbish. I’d like a shot at that. I wouldn’t even try, except you go by the name of Spock. That means facts and logic, proof and truth. So Mr Spock can you provide any scriptural proof that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth. If you can I would certainly like to see it.

Hey LA, Of course I don't mind if you comment. I did notice WHERE. From the four winds of the earth and from the ends of heaven.

Hi Spock, I'm not following how you draw that conclusion. There is nothing in those verses or the surrounding verses that would lead me to believe that they are talking about the second coming of Christ (when he returns to set up his kingdom on earth). Can you provide any scriptural evidence that these verses are talking about the second coming of Christ. I'm confident since you are Spock that you have facts and logic. Thanks

Hi Spock, I have read about half of the comments in this thread (at this point) and I have a question for you. Can you explain to me what event is occurring in the following verse? Matthew 24 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Thank you.