childoftheking

Babylon has been destroyed for centuries, but there is a current nation that is liken to Babylon. But that verse is speaking of the JUDGEMENT coming to Babylon. And I see some of your answers are from several television preachers WHO ARE CLUELESS!! There is something about you I am missing because if we both saw a red ball roll across the street, we definitely would not view it the same. How you envision scripture lines up with no one that I know of. I will admit, the only reason I continue this back n forth is because I've never seen answers so far off the chart. It's like watching a trainwreck ,where you don't blink because you might missing something that will make you say, WOW!!

No, what your verse and my verses PROVE is that the Holy Spirit worked in different ways throughout the history of creation. Like we know Yeshua was Melchizedek, I AM to Moses, the 4th man in the furnace, The General of God's military to Joshua, and many more examples...and in the New Testament Yeshua was our Lord, Savior, Resurrection, Everything... I have noticed you cannot put the 2 things together and why you are deceived by the Pre-Trib lie. For someone claiming to be a Believer and know the WORD for as long as you claim, you actually and literally don't know much at all!!

We have discussed this Book before and I provided the actual papyrus around 200 BCE. I even included the scholar who dated it.

Your Canon is from the PAGAN CONSTANTINE, MINE IS FROM YAHWEH!!

Let's say you are correct which what you just said is what I said underneath each scripture. But your post proves Revelation is speaking about Armageddon and final Judgement and Lake of Fire. The other poster claims these verses speak about Tribulation which is WRONG!!

Genesis 6: 3And the LORD said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. גוַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֗ה לֹֽא־יָד֨וֹן רוּחִ֤י בָֽאָדָם֙ לְעֹלָ֔ם בְּשַׁגָּ֖ם ה֣וּא בָשָׂ֑ר וְהָי֣וּ יָמָ֔יו מֵאָ֥ה וְעֶשְׂרִ֖ים שָׁנָֽה: The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Now, as a trinitarian like yourself, there are no references to the FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT being in PERSONS FORM. NOWHERE does the scripture make that claim. But in Genesis, God claims HIS SPIRIT is what strives with man. So yes, the Old Testament people did have the Holy Spirit, it is also what inspired their writings so it was active way back then like it is now. Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him? Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; Isaiah speaks about the Holy Spirit constantly being active during his day and before his day!!

THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON!! Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: THE FIRST 15 VERSES SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON!! Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? THE FIRST 15 VERSES SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON!! Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING WRATH OF SATAN/ANTICHRIST DURING TRIBULATION!! Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT!! Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON, JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON, JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON, JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON, JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING ARMAGEDDON, JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. THIS VERSE SPEAK OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE!! DUDE, you are making things up to fit your False Doctrine!!

Three Comings is not scriptural at all!! When Yeshua spoke in Matthew 24, if He was going to come before and after Trib He would had mentioned it. He does mention coming AFTER, so if He was coming before He definitely would had included that!!

Verse 13 shows a clear difference: No wonder you cannot separate the verses for Second Coming to your false meaning of rapture!!

Paul DOES NOT disagree!! What he wrote was a man visited the 3rd Heaven, he does not claim this is where God abides. That is MAN'S TRADITION LIKE PRE-TRIB, LIKE PETER BEING FIRST POPE, LIKE THE DIDACHE WAS FROM THE ACTUAL APOSTLES, LIKE USING PERSONS TO DESCRIBE FATHER-SON-HOLY SPIRIT (when there IS NO mention of PERSONS). You obviously don't ever separate scripture from opinion!! In 2 Corinthians Paul the Apostle writes, "I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."[6] ^NOWHERE does it claim this is where God lives!!

1 Vilon (וילון), Also see (Isa 40:22) 22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: 2 Raki'a (רקיע), Also see (Gen 1:17) 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 3 Shehaqim (שחקים), See (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7) 23Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, 4 Zebul (זבול), See (Isa 63:15, KJV) 15Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained? 5 Ma'on (מעון), See (Deut 26:15) 15Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 6 Machon (מכון), See (1 Kings 8:39, Deut 28:12) 12The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. 39Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) 7 Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the throne of the Lord are located. BEING EDUCATED ON THINGS GOD TAUGHT TO THE HEBREW PEOPLE, IS A VERY GOOD THING IN UNDERSTANDING THE GOD YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR LIFE TO!!

Montana, You really need to study!! Your Canon is so limited it reveals just glimpses of God. If you knew the Hebrew, it would allow you to even respect more of the greatness of Yahweh and His Creation: the seven heavens refer to seven levels or divisions of Heaven. The concept can be found in the Abrahamic religions such as Islam, Judaism and Christianity; Abrahamic religions[edit] Judaism and Christianity[edit] The universe is made of seven heavens (Shamayim)[9] Vilon (וילון), Also see (Isa 40:22) Raki'a (רקיע), Also see (Gen 1:17) Shehaqim (שחקים), See (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7) Zebul (זבול), See (Isa 63:15, KJV) Ma'on (מעון), See (Deut 26:15) Machon (מכון), See (1 Kings 8:39, Deut 28:12) Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the throne of the Lord are located. The Jewish Merkavah and Hekhalot literature was devoted to discussing the details of these heavens, sometimes in connection with traditions relating to Enoch, such as the Third Book of Enoch.[10] In the second century, Irenaeus also knows seven heavens (see his Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching 9; cf. Against Heresies 1.5.2).

These Books were part of the Hebrew Collection before being destroyed and some were left out when restored by Ezra. But, if you have never heard of more than 3 heavens, you clearly have not read Enoch or Jasher and those Books are mentioned in your current Canon. "The 10 Heavens of the 2nd Book of Enoch (II Enoch) " Shamayim (שָׁמַיִם), the Hebrew word for "heaven" (literally means heavens, plural): Seven Heavens[edit] The system of Seven Heavens, named:[5][6][7] Vilon (וִילוֹן) or Araphel (עֲרָפֶל) The first heaven, governed by Archangel Gabriel, is the closest of heavenly realms to the Earth; it is also considered the abode of Adam and Eve. Raqia (רָקִיעַ): The second heaven is dually controlled by Zachariel and Raphael. It was in this heaven that Moses, during his visit to Paradise, encountered the angel Nurielwho stood "300 parasangs high, with a retinue of 50 myriads of angels all fashioned out of water and fire". Also, Raqia is considered the realm where the fallen angels are imprisoned and the planets fastened.[8] Shehaqim (שְׁחָקִים, Shechaqim): The third heaven, under the leadership of Anahel, serves as the home of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life; it is also the realm where manna, the holy food of angels, is produced.[9] The Second Book of Enoch, meanwhile, states that both Paradise and hell are accommodated in Shehaqim with hell being located simply "on the northern side". Maon (מִעוּן): The fourth heaven is ruled by the Archangel Michael, and according to Talmud Hagiga 12, it contains the heavenly Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Altar. Makon (מִכּוּן, Makhon): The fifth heaven is under the administration of Samael. It is also where the Ishim and the Song-Uttering Choirs reside. Zebul (זִבּוּל): The sixth heaven falls under the jurisdiction of Sachiel. Araboth (עֲרֵבוּת, Aravoth): The seventh heaven, under the leadership of Cassiel, is the holiest of the seven heavens because it houses the Throne of God attended by the Seven Archangels and serves as the realm in which God dwells; underneath the throne itself lies the abode of all unborn human souls. It is also considered the home of the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and the Hayyoth.[10] As I have been saying, until you know the actual Hebrew, you have no idea what they were told and instructed to understand by Yahweh!!

Yes, those who have denied the INVISIBLE GOD will believe the visible God. For the Believers, that will be an obvious red flag. Well, except for the Pre-Tribbers convinced He will return like verse 13 points out: 13. And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Yeshua, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved. ^love this verse: The first part is a clear indicator of those believing in a False Doctrine and will accept the antichrist as the Christ returned and they become the antichrist's SERVANTS: The second part are those NOT FOOLED by the antichrist because they NEVER fell for the False doctrine (obviously speaking about the False Demonic Doctrine of Pre-Trib) will run away knowing that IS NOT Yeshua (because they remember Matthew 24 that Yeshua does not return until AFTER Tribulation ends)!!

CHAPTER 4 AND now Hezekiah and Josab my son, these are the days of the completion of the world. 2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king. 3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands. 4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires. 5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour. 6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none." 7. And all the people in the world will believe in him. 8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other." 9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him. 10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region. 11. And he will set up his image before him in every city. 12. And he shall bear sway three years and seven months and twenty-seven days. 13. And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Yeshua, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved. 14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies. 15. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed]:

No, only ONE has claimed to believe you. The rest who have posted have been against you. You are only deceiving yourself!!

If you are using the verses that prove the Second Coming for a Pre-Trib rapture, then where are the other set of verses about the Second coming? And so far, you used Luke (which was discussing the snares of this world NOT THE TRIBULATION), and have used 1 Thess (which is clear as a new plane of glass, that Paul answered their question if they would ever see their dead friends and loved ones again). Then you believe that the Chapters are in chronological order in the Book of Revelation (because chapter 7 speaks of the Elect gathered at the END of Tribulation and chapter 20 mentions those who refused the Mark). So far, nothing you claim lines up. And, it's obvious the verses you use for Pre-Trib describe the Second Coming. No wonder no one but Montana believes you. Everyone else understands your verses are specifically for the Second Coming, not about 2 Comings of Yeshua.

Interesting, you claim God has not shown the beginning of Tribulation, yet, the Angel specifies the great multitude COMES FROM TRIBULATION and then in chapter 20 we find the beheaded's (much much much smaller number). Can you twist this any more for your False View?

Now you are just taking scripture with WRATH in it to create a mythical scenario...

ἐκλεκτοὺς = the Elect = elect, chosen It's a predestined term. Just like God knew you would believe in Him before you ever were born, you are predestined. So the Elect is a predestined term for BELIEVERS. The Jews majorly do not accept Yeshua, but the Gentiles do. The Jews won't believe until midpoint. What's interesting, Pre-Tribbers believe the Holy Ghost leaves when they leave. Yet, the TWO WITNESSES for first 3 1/2 years will have great power, will die and then come back alive for a period of time before being caught up themselves. Their power is the Holy Spirit!! So, not only will the Holy Spirit be present during Tribulation, but so will us BELIEVERS!!

No Strawman, just what you have done, by using scriptures specifying the Second Coming and turning them into a False Pre-Trib rapture.

I am only pointing out, the SAME SCRIPTURES believed to be the Second Coming, has suddenly been skewed into this False Pre-Trib rapture.

I hope YOU KNOW there are letters from the the Church in Thess asking about loved dead ones and Paul answers them. And you FALSEY TURNED it into a Pre-Trib setting!!

I agree that the SAME SCRIPTURES explaining the Second Coming can be skewed into thinking it could be a rapture. But NOWHERE is it obvious Yeshua returns TWICE within 7 years!!

There was no need for Noah to go through the Flood, for Isaiah to be cut in half by a WOODEN SAW, for John the Baptist to be beheaded, etc.. Even God Himself was beaten and crucified, Have you actually ever suffered for Christ as an American? God is conclusive in that He seems to enjoy our suffering for Him!!