RonaldBruno
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Posts posted by RonaldBruno
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On 9/9/2020 at 4:31 PM, JohnR7 said:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". (Matthew 24:21) We also see this in Ezekiel 5:9, Daniel 12:1 & Joel 2:2 who tells us "such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come".
The Great Tribulation that Jesus is talking about took place in 70 AD when the temple was tore down. We are told that not one stone will remain upon another. The Church age actually began in 29 AD on the day of Pentecost when Peter was preaching in the upper room. It was 40 years later that the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed.
We know the church age is coming to an end. I just wonder how the Great Tribulation of 70 AD relates to us today? There is just not that much in the way of scripture talking about a Great Trib. I know lots of pastors preach lots of stuff but I want scripture and I want to know what the Bible says.
The GT is future and involves the entire world. Not one war, one small town - that wasn't great. There were about 70,000 people in Jerusalem in 70 AD. There have been many wars that killed many more people than that. There were many millions killed in the flood. Wars and rumors of Wars, pestilence, famine, earthquakes in various locations were not a precursor to Jerusalem 70AD.
We are NOW seeing the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24. 2/3 of the planet (5 billion) will die during the GT.
None of the things in Rev. 6 -22 have occurred with the possible exception of the rider on the white horse who goes out and conquers - who has a crown (corona) with him.
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The TOE is just another one of Satan's deceptions as are all false religions. Any method to lure you away from Christ, no matter which one you choose, he's got you.
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I have always understood that Satan, the fallen angel Lucifer took 1/3 of the angels with him in a rebellion against God. A fallen angel is a demon.
Demons and Satan can possess people and as we see in scripture a legion of them were cast out of a man by Jesus and sent into a heard of pigs and to the Abyss.
Satan can appear as an angel of light. As Lucifer, he was the most powerful, adorned angel. It's interesting that as he perpetrates evil on mankind, he cannot do anything unless He has permission to. He needed permission to destroy everything in Job's life, but not Job and this was for a purpose. It was a lesson for us. We look at Job's life when everything seems to be collapsing around us - to hold on with hope and remain faithful to God to the end.
The idea of Satan being on a leash puzzled me for awhile. You would think if he disobeyed and started a rebellion against God, that he would continue to do so in complete disobedience. But God is SOVEREIGN.
So what can we say about this? If He appeared as an angel of light, then he had permission to - for a purpose. Frankly, I think he did appear to Joseph Smith.
I can't prove it in scripture, but I do not believe that God would allow 200 million demons to appear in human form or even Satan. If they could, this world would be in chaos and mankind could not survive this kind of power. So, when they fell from heaven, they were most likely stripped of this ability. Obviously, Gids angels - the good ones can appear as men.
At the 5th trumpet sound, demonic locusts are released from the Abyss to torture mankind who have the mark of the Beast. Later on in the Apocalypse we see 200 million demonic horsemen. It appears to me that they are the same ones as the locusts, just in a different form. This is the only time, during the Great Tribulation, that they are released from the Abyss to destroy mankind. And again, they have strict orders - only those with the mark of the beast!
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2 hours ago, Who me said:
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I am totally at a loss to know what the has to do with the greatest spiritual battle of today.
You said apathy is the biggest spiritual war. Apathy is a personal battle between the Spirit and the flesh.
My original post stated that we are in a major spiritual war against enemy.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12
Satan is using fear and deception surrounding this pestilence. People are under this dark cloud, kind of in a spell, that has rendered many fearfully isolated and immobilized. Some are afraid - still - to leave their homes.
THIS spiritual war has effectively prevented the world from going to church for months and now we are fighting back, they are opening up again. It has also separated people, prevented personal contact and even smiles unseen. No warm hugs from anyone. What effect does this have on people, hearts actually grow cold. You can't even help (love) others - you have to stay away. Happiness was taken away for months. Much more of this and hearts will grow cold, getting use to this disconnect - having no choice but to accept it.
Satan wants us afraid, in doubt, would like us to be disconnected with each other and unable to go to church. He would fuel hate and racism, terrorism, anarchy.
Life has changed. So you think people are apathetic to all this?
But my other point was God is sovereign and allowing this - for a purpose. If a person is unloving/apathetic about life, they are probably not born again.
But please don't just strip two sentences out of context of my entire post, then claim it has nothing to do with spiritual warfare.
Actually, I heard John Macarthur teach that this darkness the world is under, is not just biological, it is a spiritual war.
And the "don't worry" is meany for encouragement, that God is in control and has a plan.
Fear is the opposite of faith, so realize that and that Satan is on a warpath.
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20 hours ago, Who me said:
No. The biggest and most successful spiritual war is the campaign of apathy that causes Christians to be slack in their discipline of daily spiritual living
"The workers are few" is just a statement of fact.
What does God's sovereignty mean to you?
I'll tell you what it means to me. He is in control _ of everything. His plan is perfect and will be carried out perfectly, on schedule, with all who are written in the Book of Life saved at their appointed time.
All prophecy could not become true unless He has everything under control and that means He has factored into His plan all our weaknesses and failures, allows sin and evil _for a purpose.
There are now 2.5 billion Christians who put their faith in Christ. Some have little faith and some great. Faith is a gift and He also prepares each individual for work to do, equipping them with various gifts and so we all participate in the body as an organism. Does God expect all of us to be like Billy Graham or even all pastors. Eph.4:11 states the evangelism is a gift and apparently not everyone has this gift. I know people with this gift that bring in loads of people when others with the same knowledge and heart bring none or just a few.
We all know that God prepares each individual for salvation in a unique way that He orchestrates. He ordained people and events to come into their lives, draws them to that divine appointment and lifts the veil, enabling them to see.
Individually, each of us have a spiritual war with the flesh, and yes, selfishness can amount to apathy. Discipline comes in time, so we see all levels of loving your neighbor. If a person remains selfish and apathetic, "by their fruit you will know them". Most likely they do not have the Holy Spirit. The Word and the Spirit will transform this person.
Realize that there are tares among the wheat.
Don't worry, His plan cannot be delayed or messed up by Satan or man's apathy. Christianity is right on track, to say it isn't would be saying God is not sovereign.
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13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
My comments in red above
In Christ
Montana Marv
I am very familiar with the 70th week of Daniel theology - I am not an adherent to this gap theory. Christ was cut off in the middle of that week. Gabriel gave a specific time frame that pointed to Jesus First Coming and that was it. John saw a vision of Jesus in his past arriving in heaven _ in His glory_ with praise and worship saying He is worthy to open the scroll - and He opened it. How would we know what was in it if He had not opened it? If course all this is happening in heaven, outside of our time domain. But He was handed the scroll after His ascension. Did He wait thousands of our years ... or up there its like two days?
But you are entitled to hold tightly to your view ... until you start experiencing the Great Tribulation and you are still here -Oops.
Sincerely, I am pushing for the Pre-Trib view to be correct and mine wrong. I don't want to be around when all these catastrophic events occur- thank you very much. I just don't agree with it. At least I expect to go through some of it before I'm taken out and won't be disappointed and falling away from my faith when I'm still here.
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6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
The Scripture means the Bride is gone. We do the work of spreading the Gospel. When we are gone an angel is doing the work. No need to have two doing the work of one.
In Christ
Montana Marv
According to your view, we are gone. Not interested in arguing views, but in the spiritual realm, how do you think guardian angels communicate with us? We know the Holy Spirit dwells in us, He communicates to us, but about angels? Could they communicate with humans (aside from a personal and physical appearance), to their minds? Yes, Joseph received a message and others as well. So this angel could just be transmitting a message to people that might have their doors open?
Don't be so sure we are gone by this time.
"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.
I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand." Rev. 14:12-14.
Looks like Jesus just arrived in a cloud. Then every eye sees Him and the Jews believe and are sealed.
"Every nation, tribe tongue and people ..." Sounds to me like we are still here.
"Patient endurance from the people of God who remain faithful to Jesus", sounds like us. (though it could be the new Jewish converts left behind?) But if it was a reference to the remnant Jews who just became Christians, asking for patience of someone who has just become a Christian ... endurance and would scripture identify these as a group who is faithful, been put to the test throughout their lives? Faith grows, starts out small and is demonstrated by fruit.
And so, this period is an interim between the 7th trumpet and the 7 bowls of God's wrath being released in the next chapters. God is showing us different vantage points all through Revelation that include events that repeat and overlap. If many things were occurring in one hour, He shows us them individually. We can't see them all at once and so "Here is what this looks like at this angle ...". Revelation is like looking at a 4- dimensional, transparent sphere, with events inside and outside. As you turn the sphere, you get to look at different vantage points. The orders are in the scroll with 7 seals, but the action doesn't start until the trumpets start to blow.
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2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
Not as attack. If an angel is needed to proclaim the Gospel, we are not here OR believers are not doing their job in the Great Commission, too scared.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Why don't read the scripture: "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;" Rev. 14:6
You judged me, said I am unworthy to be on the kingdom because apparently you think I and all of unworthy Christians are not spreading the gospel and therefore God will need to send this angel to do it!
What do you think that scripture means?
Think about it. And take this with you as well: None of us are worthy! None of us received acceptance into heaven by merit. This is what Grace means, unmerited favor. We are all sinners, so please, get off your worthy pedestal and eat some humble pie!
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11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
If an angel is proclaiming the Gospel, guess what? you are not doing your job (you are hiding your light under a basket or you have lost your saltiness; both not worthy of the Kingdom), or you are not here. Not many choices.
In Christ
Montana Marv
How rude and judgemental. Nothing to say so you attack.
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On 7/4/2020 at 9:59 PM, not an echo said:
Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!" Understandably, if so, it would seem that this teaching should also hold for all centuries of the Church Era, from the first century to the actual century of His return.
Did the first century Christians believe that Christ's return for the Church was imminent? Consider Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Should Paul's words be taken as applying to the Thessalonians personally? I believe so. Consider the very next verses, which open chapter five:
1 But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.
Notice also that in the above joining references, Paul made a very close connection between the rapture and the Day of the Lord, which he says, "so cometh as a thief in the night" (vs. 2). We know that when Christ returns for the rapture of the Church, He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, or as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44; Mk. 13:32-37; Lk. 12:39-40). Indeed, because the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord so closely coincide, the Day of the Lord will come just as suddenly and unexpectedly, again, as Paul says, "as a thief in the night." These words support that there will be no sign(s) that will indicate that Christ's return, nor the Day of the Lord, is on the verge of taking place. To the contrary, Jesus said that "in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44). This world will by no means be expecting the rapture event, nor be prepared for the Day of the Lord, which scripturally can commence right afterwards---even on the same day. But, we as Christians should be ever watchful and ready, knowing that this can happen at any time.
There are several other references that give support to the view that even first century Christians should have been prepared for Christ to come for the Church at any time. Consider Paul's words, again to the Thessalonians, in I Thessalonians 1:
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 AND to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
And, his words to the Thessalonians once more, in II Thessalonians 3:
5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
And, his words to the Philippians, in chapter three:
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
And, his words to Titus, in chapter two:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Note also that James writes similarly, in James 5:
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
In light of the foregoing, it should not be too difficult to reason that first century Christians would have rightly viewed Christ's return as being imminent. But, there are valid questions that yet deserve addressing and bear upon some specifics. Consider with me:
1. Jesus informed Peter (a revelation) concerning the manner of his (Peter's) death (Jn. 21:18-19). We know that Peter understood this and was mindful that he would die---something he later alluded to (II Peter 1:13-14). So, as far as Peter is concerned, it would seem that he would not have viewed Christ's return as being imminent, but rather, his own death.
2. John certainly understood what Jesus was saying to Peter (Jn. 21:20-24). This means that he would have also had to be mindful of the fulfillment of Jesus' words. I think John could have still felt that Jesus would come in his own lifetime (yes!), but probably not that His coming was imminent---at least, not until after Peter's death. It would also seem evident that the rest of the apostles would have had this mindset.
3. Just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the apostles to tarry in Jerusalem, to "wait for the promise of the Father," which was the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:4-5). He told them that after this, they would be witnesses unto Him (another revelation), "both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8). It seems that the apostles would have been bound to expect that what Jesus was saying to them would be fulfilled. Of course, they might have expected Him to return at any minute and for His words to be fulfilled in some way that they could not at the time comprehend. But, I think this is not necessarily so, and especially for Peter.
4. Concerning Paul, the Lord told Ananias, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake" (Acts 9:16). Paul had to realize that some pretty tough times were ahead for him. I would think that until he had suffered some such, Christ's return would not have been imminent in his mind. Jesus also informed Paul that he would be going to Rome (yet another revelation/Acts 23:11). Until he arrived there, would Christ's return have been imminent in his mind? I do believe that Paul felt that Christ would return in his lifetime (again, yes!), but I am doubtful that he would have felt that His return was imminent, at least not until the revelations concerning what he would experience were fulfilled. Whereas Peter would have known that he (Peter) was going to die before Christ's return, Paul did not have this particular revelation concerning himself, except perhaps near his life's end (II Tim. 4:6).
As can be seen, there are evidences that seem to support that Christ's return would not have necessarily been imminent in the minds of the apostles, at least not in the earlier days of their ministry. I say "seem" to allow for some angle that I may have yet to consider. Based upon Scripture, I do feel comfortable in saying that, except for Peter, the apostles looked for Jesus to come in their lifetime, especially as they grew older. And very probably, after Peter's death, they would have seen His return as being imminent. Furthermore, after Peter's death, I would have to believe that Christians should have viewed Christ's return as imminent. And note, they did not know when Peter would die, just that he would.
In summing everything up, at the very least, the post-Apostolic, late first century Church should have viewed Christ's return for the Church as being imminent. In my comprehension of what is revealed in Scripture, since that time until now, the only correct view of Christ's return for the Church is that it has been imminent. Because of this, the only kind of rapture view that I can see that will harmonize with the scriptural evidence is a pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture view. Said another way, as I see it, any other kind of view meets it Waterloo (like Napoleon) in the truth of the imminency of Christ's return. Finally, the mindset of present day Christians should be that Christ can come for the Church at any time, even before I finish this senten
"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).
You claim there won't be preceding signs? What about what we are going through right now: pestilence, lawlessness ...?
Matt. 24:6-14 informs us of preceding signs before his return, the last one being the gospel being preached to every nation - then the end will come. NO OTHER CENTURY COULD HAVE CLAIMED THAT PREREQUISITE SIGN.
So the big question is, "Are we experiencing the period of time referred to as the "beginning of sorrows"?
We see pestilence that has crippled the world with fear of a virus.
We see lawlessness in the streets that has also threatened to grow in November.
We also have a peace treaty made with UAE and just the other day an additional country joining.
There is no argument that the gospel has recently been preached to every nation and tribe.
So we as Christians are not in the dark about these things pertaining to His return. The world will interpret these events as nothing that hasn't happened before, natural, normal, especially wars and pestilence, famine and earthquakes. This is somewhat reasonable, but we see them happening more frequently. The 20th century certainly had more deaths due to wars than the previous 1800 years combined.
I'm not sure about this observation, but another thread revealed a very interesting insight about the 1st Horseman. He goes out to conquer and is given a crown. Coronavirus got it's name because it looks like a crown. This virus, in a sense went out and conquered the world, not completely defeating us, but at no time in history did any thing like this have an effect and render us capive and impotent, as prisoners, panicked and cowering in fear and in hiding. Certainly Satan is behind this! It wasn't meant to defeat us ... there are three more horsemen and they will kill 1/3 of the population.
In the midst of these catasptrophes an angel is still spreading the gospel. (Rev. 14:6)
So idea that nothing precedes the rapture is certainly at odds with what Jesus said.
Another thing to add to this conundrum is the the true placement of the "Last Trumpet". It's blown by an angel, not a man during some earthly trumpet feast. It is Trumpet #7.
The Pre-tribbers must deny and refute this, because it messes up their whole theology. Don't bother trying, it is a no win argument - been there. So just take all this with you. As things happen (events pile up that we can identify as 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th trumpet events) and we are still here, you will concede and gladly get on board with #7.
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“How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves.” Peterlag 8-29
>> Spiritually we are pure, but we are still carrying around the flesh which we must mortify daily. Loving others is an act that we demonstrate daily, physically, emotionally, willfully. It is His Spirit, His Love that works through us. So we must demonstrate it not just in word but in deed, physically with our flesh/body.
“It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Peterlag 8-29
>> Well Catholic Churches teach faith plus works. Protestant Churches teach that we are saved by faith through Grace and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift.
“What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them.” Peterlag 8-29
>Paul uses the pronoun “I”. He is talking about himself and all Christians. Not just those who are legalistic. He was one of the most spiritual men who “walked in the Spirit” . Take it from him, don’t distort what he said. Here is an Audio of John MacArthur answering the question: Can a Christian still struggle with sin?
“The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them.” Peterlag 8-2
> Fundamentally, our flesh has not yet been redeemed and sin still dwells within. Has our flesh been destroyed? Are you still walking around or are you floating? Do you return to your selfish ways? Do you possess evil thoughts at times, even though you don’t act on them? Do you desire, lust after things that you should not? That is the flesh. We get those thoughts and desires and so no to them. That is the battle. If you say this struggle does not go on within you, you deceive yourself. Our spirit wars against the flesh and though you cannot understand this concept, it’s true. Ironically, many of your responses to me and others are fleshy, obstinate and a bit prideful.
“The law does not apply to the Christian.” Peterlag 8-31
> Wrong again. The Law is spiritual. We are not saved by the Law, but must still obey it. Jesus gave us two commandments to obey – which all others fall under. We are saved by faith, but still obey His Commandments.
“I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer.” Peterlag 9-0
>Wrong. He didn’t destroy it yet. Our spirit will separate our flesh at death, then it will be destroyed and later be resurrected to life. So as I said before, we are living in the “already … but not yet” realm of salvation. So we reckon our flesh to be dead … already … but not yet.
“Most Christians still believe the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual. And this is why they believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point. Most of all of those same Christians believe they must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin after becoming a Christian.” Peterlag 9-02
>No, mature Christians believe that God makes us holy. They believe that we are transformed by the renewing of our minds, as we read the Word. The Word transforms us gradually. We grow spiritually gradually. Therefore an immature Christian would fail to love others more often than a mature Christian would. And yes, we confess our sins, not that if we died at any moment we would have missed some. No, because we are humble when we acknowledge our faults to God and to others when we mess up. We try not to repeat that sin again and discuss with Him and He helps us, gives us strength.
“It's not really my spirit, but rather the spirit of Christ. And if you want to split hairs, it's really not his spirit because it came from God, which is why it's sometimes referred to as the spirit of God.” Peterlag 9-2
>Father, Son, Holy Spirit are ONE.
‘Perhaps it’s not, “Be ye transformed by the renewal of your mind”; but rather” Be renewed in the spirit of your mind.’ Peterlag 9-2
>Don’t add your own theology and distort the meaning of scripture. It is means what it says. It means to use the new mind (drawing from the knowledge of the Word) instead of the old mind (memories of your old ways).
“Most believers have been taught it's them, their mind, and therefore their flesh that should be involved in renewing their mind.” Peterlag 9-2
>Our soul, spirit and body cooperates with the Holy Spirit. We obey His Commandments. We pick up the Bible and we go to Church and we get up every morning and prayer and we help others with all our being.
“I have not been walking in the spirit since I was a Christian. I did not even know there was a spirit when I became a Christian. ” Peterlag 9-3
>There you go, conflicting with what your whole claim is, that Christ destroyed the flesh when you became a Christian. Then if you weren’t walking in the Spirit, when you became a Christian, what were you walking in?
“My flesh does not get in the way. It's been crucified with Christ. It's dead... completely dead in him.” Peterlag
>Are you sure?
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20 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I don't hide from questions. If you can't hear what I'm saying it's probably because I teach Christ and you teach man. There is no sin in Christ and I'm in him.
Are you not a man? Are you not walking around in your flesh? Or are you composed of spirit only?
"And ah for a man to arise in me, That the man I am may cease to be!" Tennyson
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10 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I already wrote this stuff down. So I don't need to write it again. If I can't send you what I already wrote. Then I will send you nothing.
Again, you are very illusive, avoiding 3 questions in there ... not very transparent and THAT speaks volumes of the fleshy nature you are consciously hiding and in denial that you have.
All Christians walk in the Spirit but also still sin. Sin dwells in the members of your flesh apparently don't think you have flesh. This is a mental block and will impede spiritual growth which requires the Christian to cooperate with the Spirit to daily mortify the flesh.
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2 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I'm not sure what the difference is between an answer and a canned answer. However, you are correct. I believe the old man is dead.
Actually you gave the exact same answers word for word to three different posts from different people, then in your other thread, about the unlimited Power of God that we have available to us, you used the exact same posts also several times. That shows laziness, it is inconsiderate to those who have made an effort and you devalue it by cut and pasting a general "canned" response.
So what is your definition of the flesh, since you think the old man is dead and buried and btw, what do you think you are walking around in?
"Mortification of the flesh is an act by which an individual or group seeks to mortify, or put to death, their sinful nature, as a part of the process of sanctification. In Christianity, common forms of mortification that are practiced to this day include fasting, abstinence, as well as pious kneeling."
"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Rom. 8:13
This verse is talking about those who are walking in the Spirit. They are actively, willingly, gradually putting to death the deeds of the flesh.
Sanctification instant spiritually, but a process concerning our flesh. Spiritual growth is not only growth in knowledge, but also the practicing and perfecting love. We fail to love others as we should BECAUSE OUR FLESH GETS IN THE FAIL. That was another question I asked as well. Do you think you love others as yourself all the time or do you fail sometimes?
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6 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.
You gave the exact same canned answer in the other thread. So your answer then is NO you do not have the flesh anymore - since as you say Christ destroyed it.
That explains everything. Your theology is WRONG. NEXT!
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Does everyone agree that this is the biggest spiritual war the world has seen in our generation? It is diabolical.
This virus is surrounded by lies and deception. It has created fear which is how Satan goes out an conquers the world.
The rebellious and terrorist protests are also part of the evil. Ee are now being warned that if Biden doesnt win, America will suffer great violence. Control, manipulate the public by fear, threats.
We cannot fix this world or this country because sin stands in the way. It is growing, getting out of control and needs to be judged.
Good and evil have reached the precipice and will soon be separated.
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On 8/29/2020 at 8:35 PM, Peterlag said:
The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them.
NO, whether you are legalistic or not, you still have the flesh nature within. All Christians do until they die!
Do you agree with scripture, that the flesh and spirit are at war with each other?
Sorry one more question.
We are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves.
This is His commandment (Law). Do you agree?
We need to keep this commandment (not that we are saved by works), but because God told us to do this and we are obedient.
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Move!
Disliking people is something that comes from your core being. You can't change that. Relationships share ups and downs. But if they are always down, then you need to end it. Jesus said forgive our brothers and sisters their sins 70 x 7 times. And also if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us.
There has always been an interesting aspect to those principles. We must ask God for forgiveness to receive forgiveness and many don't. Does He still forgive them? If so, Judgment Day would not be part of the Bible.
Likewise, if someone keeps sinning against you and does not ask nor intend to ask for your forgiveness, can you forgive them? Yes, but that does not change who they are or will it stop them from doing it again. "By their fruit you will know them."
This means you must separate yourself from this person. Love your enemies means don't return evil with evil, just pray for them and move on. The forgiveness on your part is more for you. Kill them with kindness they say - but for how long before it drains you? You release negative feelings that way and then it is on them. If you hold onto grudges, that is unhealthy.
As some have mentioned? Toxic people take away your grace, your joy and peace. They harm jn other ways too as you have mentioned.
Before you go, make sure you tell her how she made you feel - details. She needs a to know. She'll try to deny it or argue about it. There's nothing to argue about, they are your feelings and the are real and her words spoken and actions are facts. Just tell her you are leaving to regain the grace, joy and peace you once had and will pray for her to have the same.
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5 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I don't know why you think I believe one becomes a Christian and immediately walks in the Spirit perfectly all the time - as if growth isn't necessary. Renewing your mind, studying the Word slowing transforms you.
What I believe is we can walk in the spirit and when we do we will not lust after the flesh.
Because you claim you have no sin!!!
You haven't been transparent. Several times I've asked if you think you have sinned against anyone since you've been a Christian. Another question was have you loved God and your neighbor purely and without fault everyday and every moment? You ignore those questions. Your claim has been that you only walk in the Spirit, since you believe your flesh has been destroyed, dead and since then, you have never returned to your old ways. Then you answer 3 posts from different members who have been trying to reason with you with the same canned response. That just devalues your brothers and sisters opinions and efforts. Well I'm done, I'm not wasting anymore time.
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10 hours ago, Peterlag said:
I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer.
That's your problem right there!
He didn't destroy our sin nature, He died for our sins, and paid the price for its wages which continues throughout our lives. We still have sin that dwells in the members of our flesh. We still get tempted and must mortify our lusts. That takes effort, prayer, Bible study and God fuiding and growing your spirit.
Maybe you need to define flesh? It is not just your old bad habits, behavior, thinking, desires, emotions, will, but your physical body as well. You still have your body and memories and maybe habits that you won't let go, thinking your forgiven so you can do what you want.
Your thinking is as if one becomes a Christian and immediately walks in the Spirit perfectly all the time - as if growth isn't necessary. Renewing your mind, studying the Word slowing transforms you.
Your thinking is as if you are Christlike, the moment you are born again. Your spirit is pure but your flesh is something you live in until you die. Then they will separate.
What can be likened to a dual nature?
Maybe Siamese twins, one is evil and one is good. And you must live with him until you die and so must contend with his evil ways, ignor him and not let him influence you anymore. He was in charge all your life because you were blind and deaf. After your miracle operation, you could see, hear and understand. Still, your twin tries to trip you up from time to time and when you aren't paying attention, or taking a nap, He takes you down the wrong path. So you need to be alert at all times, study the map carefully, know the route to your destination so it does'nt happen again. You learn how to navigate the peaks and valleys, avoid pot holes, swamps and danger. But he complains, argues with you: "You are going the wrong way you idiot!" He tries to be clever and makes you laugh, reminds you of all fun you used to have doing this and that and convinces you to try it again - you'll see. You do it and then the guilt comes, something bad happens and you realize you should have followed the directions. So you learn from mistakes and next time you have to tell him NO, I can't do that anymore. The more you focus on your destiny and the directions, the less your twin will have an effect on you.
Hey I tried.
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59 minutes ago, Peterlag said:
Most Christians still believe the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual. And this is why they believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point. Most of all of those same Christians believe they must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin ...
My Pastor used to say we are living in the "already but not yet". There is a tension between the two realms. Having been saved but not yet resurrected. He died for our sins that we are still making. That is the power. He did not die 1988 years ago for your sins put to the day you were saved, He died for all of them. The power that sin had was a death sentence. He defeated that death sentence.
BUT LOOK AT YOUR LIFE. YOU PRETEND AS THOUGH FROM THAT MOMENT OF SALVATION, YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG!
At this point, we are all trying to explain it in different ways to you and sounding redundant. You are coming back at us with the same responses you had in your other thread.
Here's another way: We are not pure saints walking around loving everyone to the full extant of Gods love. Why? Because our flesh still gets in the way. We practice, try hard, learn and grow to do better. We even have moments of perfection which are purely Gid wirking through us. He gets the credit. His will can only be done by factoring in all our blunders and as we cooperate, includes us in some beautiful works of art. But we don't posses a continuous flow of unconditional love. As I said some are given great faith and so accomplish great things, like loving and spreading the gospel to thousands and millions, sacrificing your life for others even through suffering and death.
Examine yourself, be honest and transparent. How others who know and love you and receive your love is really who you are.
Being transparent is saying: I am a sinner, not perfect, forgive me, I have wronged you ...( You ask others for forgiveness when you screw up - don't you?) And then in prayer, "Lord I messed up in this area again, help me to have more patience and self control, strengthen my faith, etc. Or whatever weaknesses need attention.
"By their fruit you will know them." Look at the fruit of the Spirit. Be honest with yourself - Do you think you are fully grown in all those areas? Few are. If so, Mother Teresa and Billy Graham will be cheating you on from heaven - expecting great things from you. God would have been doing great things through you already if that were the case.
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On 8/29/2020 at 8:35 PM, Peterlag said:
So let's begin by looking at these 11 verses and keep in mind they do seem to be speaking about our time right now and not for some time into the future. We see this with statements like "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law." Well, I'm not under the law right now. Or "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I'm born of God right now. Or "being made free from sin, and become servants to God." I'm a servant to God right now.
Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
Matthew tells us Jesus shall save his people from their sins. The problem I have had with this begins in Romans where it states we don't have sin anymore and yet everyone seems to agree that we all fall short. Today I woke with an idea of starting at the beginning which is where any good building starts when we need to have a solid foundation. So let's consider Adam and Eve who were created to have the spirit of God. A dog was created to function without the spirit of God and so dogs are normal in the way they function. But humans are missing something and therefore not complete if we do not function with the spirit of God. It would be considered broken if it were a car that was missing a part because it would be incomplete since it would be missing a necessary part. It had to be the spirit that Adam and Eve gave up that caused them to be broken, to have missed the mark, and to deliberately do such a thing was considered sin. Well, we know it was not an apple.
If I'm correct on how I'm looking at this then it makes sense that blasphemy against God would be an unforgivable sin because to do so would be to keep ourselves broken and therefore unable to have the spirit of life. Matthew states Jesus had the ability to forgive sins. In John we see "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." We will continue to stay broken if we refuse the spirit and this is why Jesus told them they will die in their sins because they cannot go where he is going to go. The Lord said "If you were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." In other words, if we did not know we were broken. Then we did not know we were missing a part and so it's not our fault. But if we say yeah, we know we are not broken. Then there lies the acknowledged sin.
This reminds me of 1 John where it is written if we acknowledge or confess our sin is one thing. But we lie if we say we don't have any sin. It seems to be the same concept in both John and 1 John. I'm just looking at the way sin is used in the gospels and in doing so it seems clear that Jesus had the ability to forgive sin. We still have sin if we don't get this forgiveness from him and that's what is being said in Matthew and John. And if we don't know we have sin because we are challenged to the degree of being impaired, disabled or blind to it in some way is how we would be exempt from it. Understand?
The New Testament epistles have words like "remission of sins" and "sins may be blotted out" and "the forgiveness of sins" and "wash away thy sins" and "whose sins are covered" and "impute sin" and "are dead to sin" and "condemned sin in the flesh" and "take away their sins" and "Christ died for our sins" and "purged our sins..." Romans begins with Jews and Gentiles being both under sin and this should not be anything new to us since both are still broken without the spirit of God. And yet for some mysterious reason I live on a planet where many Christians think their flesh is justified by the deeds of the law even after Romans tells us plainly that everyone except the Christian is under sin (Romans 3:20 says Jews and Gentiles).
Romans tell us "sin is not imputed when there is no law" and "that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." And then there's verse 7 with "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I never understood Romans 6 because I was taught I was a sinner saved by grace. Let's look at what Romans is saying: Christ died unto sin once and now he lives unto God. How are we who are still alive going to be able to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God? It seems to me it must be done through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's not about us or our broken selves. It's him we must function in. Here's the verse "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
It appears both Catholic and Protestant churches do not teach that "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Nor do they teach "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." And so "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." I'm going to skip over Romans 7 because it tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to them who are into or know the law. And then by the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about human's and how they toy with their flesh.
What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."
The verse in 2 Corinthians 5:21, is talking about the "righteousness of God in him." It's the "in him" that nobody seems to be able to understand. This whole thing functions "in him." It's in Christ and therefore in the new nature that is mentioned just a few verses above this in verse 17 where it says "new creature:" It's not that we do not sin in our old man nature. It's that we do not sin in the new man that we are told to put on. The churches have destroyed this idea by teaching we put on the new man by following the teachings of Jesus as we walk in our flesh. So this is a lost art.
In Colossians we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."
Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."
I see this 1 John chapter 1 and 2 as we are either walking in our old dead nature if we are into sin. Or we are walking in the spirit if we are not into sin.
Chapter 1
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
6. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
7. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
8. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
9. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
10. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.Chapter 2
1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
1. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
2. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
3. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
4. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
5. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
6. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.The last verse I'm going to mention has "in him" again. From 1 John we read "that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." We cannot sin in him because there's no sin in him and this is why "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
So you didn't want to finish your last thread about the "Power of God within us"? But I guess this is right on topic. And we all need to look at our sin. Those who are truly saved will be honest about themselves, about their sins. I always like Pastors who get up and talk about where they came from and that they still fail at times. Transparency is a special quality of Christians.
1. The Bible describes that every unbeliever is born with one nature received by his/her natural birth descended from Adam -- without the Spirit. (1 Cor. 2:14)
2. When we are born again, we receive a new nature but we do not lose the old nature, the flesh, until we physically die. If you think you do, what exactly are you walking around in? Therefore, we have two natures which are in opposition with each other, war against each other.
Paul was conflicted with this very issue: “Oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of death? I thank God – through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of Sin.”Rom. 7:24, 25 - two natures
“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” Gal. 5:17 - two natures
3. The Bible does not teach that the old nature is eradicated or that we live without it - until we physically die. The Lord will resurrect our lowly bodies that are dead and join them with our spirits which are in heaven. (Phil.3:21; 1 Cor.15:42)
4. Both natures produce different fruit. (Gal. 5;19-22) a.) The old nature must be starved and the new nature fed. (Rom. 13:9-14) b.) The old nature must be put off and the new put on. (Eph. 4:22-24) c.) “Likewise you also, reckon yourself to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom.6:11 d.) “I have been crucified with Christ; it is not longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved men and gave Himself for me.”Gal. 2:20
What can we say about this?. Is our old nature actually dead? No – but we are to reckon (to count, think, regard) it so and treat “the old man” as dead and buried!
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I read somewhere in this forum, an interpretation about the rider if the white horse that opened my eyes.
First off, the 4 horsemen are angels of the apocalypse. The rider of the white horse wears a crown = corona. He goes out to conquer the world.
The coronavirus was spread throughout the world and somewhat conquered it with a sense of fear. This fear is nefarious. Evil, lies and deception surround it.
Coincidence?
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1 hour ago, WilliamL said:
Funny you should say that.
22. Forty Days
Some of the reasons why the Great Tribulation will likely be much shorter than most people think.
https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1179-forty-days/
Course the problem is, is that we still have a quite a ways to get to those 40 days.
But it does seem that things are coming together rapidly, and we will begin to see specific End Time prophecies being fulfilled before our eyes in rapid fashion.
No doubt the wrath in the bowls will come swiftly ... prior to that, years of tribulation.
All Quiet Before Destruction Of Unsaved
in Eschatology
Posted
00szp
I believe we are in the "beginning of aorrows", defined in Matt. 24.
Pestilence, no doubt, famine ... well the locusts in a dozen East African countries have chewed up a great portion of their food and Covid-19 itself has put a strain on the entire world economies.
The first Middle East Peace Treaties with UAE and Berain with other countries to follow is growing.
Natural disasters and lawlessness are escalating here in the USA - and political and civil chaos are coming in November.
I think the wars and rumors of wars part started in the Gulf decades ago and has simmered temporarily.
So earthquakes in various places ... California is well overdue and the ring of fire will follow ... Turkey, Italy, Indonesia ...?
These hurricanes are quite numerous this year. As we speak, the whole Gulf and entire east coast is under storm watch with two or three storms - lost count. We already got hit twice this year.
Fires in California have destroyed over 5 million acres this year and the last couple years has been bad as well.
Those fires in Australia last year were devastating too or was it the year before?
Then we have a true Antichrist billionaire, George Soros, who could be the Big Cahuna, spending hundreds of millions to destroy the US as we know it and lead the entire world into a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. Btw, he is a partial owner of that Wuhan Bio Lab in China AND owns several bio labs in the US under different names.
Its also interesting that Bill Gates has invested $10 Billion in vaccine research and manufacturing companies. He disguises himself as a philanthropist do-gooder but is an atheist who believes the world should have about 500 million people - so I would speculate that he has ulterior motives - that aren't good.
And lets not forget the Rothschilds, Rockefellers ... those elites who have met behind closed doors for decades (more Antichrists) AND that the NWO has been on the UN table since their beginnings.
Well meaning is how they may consider themselves; to solve world hunger and create world peace; a global community under one umbrella government, banking system and law; a Utopia! But this is not realistic, it is delusional to think they can accomplish this. Why? Sin is in the world and so the only person who can rid the world of sin is Christ. He alone will bring peace, love, harmony - after he gets rid of all the reprobates.
The gospel has recently been preached to every nation and tongue, so the end is near.
Coming soon.