RonaldBruno

On 8/15/2020 at 11:08 AM, Revelation Man said:

There is NO HUMAN 200 million man army

The 200 million demons coming out of  the Abyss not only manifest themselves as demon locusts who torture those who have the mark of the beast  for 5 months _  after they are done _ will possess 200 million men, mostly of Islamic nations, to attack Israel. Make no mistake, reprobates are Satan's slaves and will be spiritually influenced to do his will.

Interesting, the rider on the white horse is given the coronavirus and he (an angel), goes out and conquers the world, rendering the world in a state of fear (a false peacetime of inactivity) - before the red horse comes, who will  bring war. The idea that it is red, brings to mind Red China.

But aren't the death tolls dropping and so it looks like it will be defeated. Therefore, it won't conquer us. We'll see.

It is certainly the beginning of sorrows - the pestilence in Matt. 24

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Agree.  And if you look at those 3.5 years closely, there is tribulation for both awake believers (the mark and image) and those who fell asleep (the seven plagues).

The seven plagues will serve to wake up those who were deceived into taking the mark and worshiping the image so that they might repent.

If you read Rev. 16, verses 9 and 11 both claim that NO ONE Repents during this time.

Rev. 11:15 looks like the rapture to me and so we all believers are gone. Those left behind are unbelievers after that point except for the remnant Israel who were sealed most likely at the time every eye sees HIM and they mourn, realizing who their Messiah is. 

It's interesting that no one is mentioning who these elites are; mainly because they have been operating in secret behind closed doors for decades. I am referring to the Bilderberg meetings. The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Soros ( their henchman who is funding terrorism in our country now) and numerous others such as Gates. Why they don't go after Soros (Public Enemy #1) is beyond me.

Btw, George Soros is a shareholder in the Wuhan Bio Lab and has several bio labs in the USA under different names. 

The Republicans are just now seeking to investigate the money trail of these anarchists - as if they hadn't known all along where It's coming from.???

As mentioned these elites own the media - their machine used to manipulate and deceive.

Then of course it is no secret  that the Rothschilds have been major shareholders in the Central Bank of Europe and the Federal Reserve for hundreds of years! Not sure how much wealth and power Rockefellers have now, but decades ago they did. 

Soros said that the US was an obstacle for this NWO, that btw presidents from both parties have been pushing for.

This is what Trump saw coming down the pike and so got involved, erased a lot of what Obama/Soros had accomplished and so now they want to erase everything he accomplished. This is their last playing hand, the final push to implement this One World Government. 

Trump gave Fauci the benfit of the doubt and could not reject him initially; but we have seen the lies and misinformation coming from the WHO and the CDC who are culprits in this nefarious scenario. He knows now he can't trust him or the WHO and threatened to withwithold financial support to the WHO - not sure if He cut them off completely.

The question is, is Trump's Task Force, which  includes top scientists and labs working on a vaccine, trying to beat Gates/Soros labs and get something before they do and deny their vaccine and distribute theirs or are they all in it together? The FDA/Big Pharm is also part of the swamp so this will be interesting tk see how it all unfolds and what happens on Nov. 3.

The bottom line is, a One World Government controlled by the AC is prophesied,  will take place and therefore Trump will try but fail to defeat this monster - it's really over his head. It is possible that they will steal the election fraudulently. If not, wars and rumors of wars will take place and so maybe we'll need Trump to press the buttons before this NWO is finally organized. ???

Can't wait for Christ to intervene. Wish it could be over in 40 days instead of this long drawn out scenario.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Revelation Man

This "tradition" you refer to, have you ever seen ANY ancient source? I haven't, and I have been asking pre trib believers to produce one document for many years......none!

It is a modern-day pre trib device with faint references to perhaps Jewish encyclopedia prattle or authors who quote each other around the circle. Better to believe the scriptures.

That's one thing I never got from any Eschatological studies is that there would be pomp and circumstance, (a wedding supper and celebration_ for 7 years _ in Heaven), while catastrophic judgment is being reigned down upon the unbelievers. 

What I do see in several areas is a 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation period.

10 hours ago, Peterlag said:

We do not agree. Not even on the same page. I don't do the sin confessing since I believe I have no sin in Christ. And it's the spirit of Christ that I walk in.

So you love your enemies and all others as you love yourself. All your life, purpose and actions are selfless and you get up everyday to the joy of serving others - wonderful! I guess you can take Mother Teresa's place - ever been to India? Okay, I was just being facetious. Let me get off  the page I was on, since you apparently interpret scripture different - or you are in denial or what it says. Let's see if you can understand the following scriptures. Note that they are being addressed to Christians.

"Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.  Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,  in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.  (Evidently, Christians fall back into these old ways).

 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.  Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,  and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him," Col.3:5-10 (Wait a minute, it says here, you can still lie to someone, use filthy language, and all sorts of things you once did)

 "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;  that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,  not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;  that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.  For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.  Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit." 1 Thes. 4:3-8 (Apparently YOUR santification also means YOU must abstain from these things, control yourself, not defraud your brother ...)

6 hours ago, Peterlag said:

You look for a way to please your flesh... to clean it up is what it looks like you're saying

I hate legalism. Many churches get hung up on legalism. 

People live in the world and start out thinking they are #1. What's in it for me, this is mine, I want, etc. So their focus is in pleasing and providing for themselves first.

The Word transforms our nature, but it doesn't happen instantly. You believe, but then still want to hold onto certain ways. "I'll stop doing this , that and the other but I still need to do this. A lot of new believers compromise with one foot in Christ and one foot in the world. In the beginning, we talk the talk, get all puffed up and pretend to be super spiritual, showing others our holiness, putting it on display. But many FAIL TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AT THEIR OWN SIN. They are quick to point out sin in others, yet fail to address their own. Now, Christ cleansed them, lives in them, but they are infants, still learning. As a matter of fact, God gives us wisdom and knowledge gradually. Certain scriptures cannot be deeply understood until He brings you through an experience. You've heard  experience is the best teacher. Well God grows our spirit this way. I've heard Billy Graham say he has read a particular passage for years, and only understood superficially; but after an experience that was relative to that scripture, He received this rich deep meaning of it. Some principles we are not ready for. An infant needs milk in the beginning and then later on solid food.

The Ten Commandments give us an idea of what sin is, but it also comes in many other forms. And it takes a while for us to really recognize the sin in our own lives. We begin to hate sin in others - but do we do the same things? Yes. Why would the Bible tell the Christian this: "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matt. 7:5

God makes us holy, but we must be obedient and cooperate, have a willingness to love and demonstrate what we believe. Yes, we need to live clean lives.

We definitely fail to love God and others sometimes.

I know people who think they have never done anything wrong, refuse to confess their sins - because the truth is not in them. 

2 hours ago, Peterlag said:

What do you think John meant when he penned...

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

"If this declaration related to any one act of sin, none of us could ever say that we have seen or known him, but it relates to the habit of sin, — if we love sin, and live in sin, if the main course of our life is sinful, then we have “not seen him, neither known him.” Charles Spurgeon

Long ago, I struggled with these passages, I was conflicted. I prayed about it and God eventually made it clear. It is the practicing of sin, being a slave to it thay we were freed from. But like a computer, we once operated under a flawed program, then God comes along and gives a new program. This program is clean, perfect, without flaws. The problem is we dont readily discard the old program that quickly. Its still on our desktop and we look at it, sometimes even miss certain aspects of it and then we click on it and open it up again thinking we are in control, we can handle it ... see this is harmless, I'm not hurting anyone ... We compromise and make excuses, then that leads to covering up our sin, hiding or lying about it. 

What about this verse, what does it mean to you? 

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."  1 John 1:8 

This was another one that I was conflicted with. Look at it. You can't say this passage is for the unbeliever only. Can we turn it around and say the truth is in us, therefore we have no sin? No. The truth is in us, therefore we say we have sinned, and will sin, we are sinners.

Christ died for past, present and future sins. Try to digest that. He didn't just die for your past sins and then you stopped. 

Now, can you answer my previous questions with a simple yes or no?

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, wrong for many reasons. TIME being a big reason. You are 2000 years off. 

Please support your opinion with something more than "time". If you are  a preterist or partial- preterist, don't bother, I've heard the explanation.

Though I am of the Prostestant faith, I do not discount Catholics as Christians and part of the body of Christ.

I just saw a Nun speak in the RNC. She was a doctor and worked in various countries like Haiti, Sudan helping the poor. She sacrificed her life and loved others even more than herself. She spoke about pro-life.

Like Mother Teresa, I would say she walked in the Spirit. I think the workers are few that actually demonstrate their love in this capacity. 

If one has great faith as these, then it is for a purpose to be used by God in a special way. I look at Billy Graham that way too. In these people, you see God's power doing incredible things.

I remember an interview of Mother Teresa in the last few years of her life. The news reporter asked her, "Who will take your place?" She turned to her and said, "You can!" Well you should have seen the reaction of this female reporter as if a guilt flag went up. She was humbled, embarrassed, because she knew her answer was written all over her face.

Not everyone can walk in the Spirit all the time.

Bravo to those who can.

3 hours ago, Peterlag said:

You cannot understand what I'm talking about because you are looking at this thing from the flesh. Statements you make right out in front like a new born Christian. I'm looking at what is happening in the spirit. And this is why I mention walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I can't get you out of this mindset you have been taught all of your life. The churches teach their people that the spirit makes their flesh spiritual. So we continue to work to clean up the flesh. I see the flesh as being dead in Christ. It's the "in" part that your not getting. I'm talking about whats "in" the spirit or what's "in" Christ. The flesh profited nothing.

I know what it is to walk in the Spirit. I have been a Christian for 29 years - Born again. At times I am filled with the Holy Spirit, He lives in me.

 In  Christ we are safe and secure. But you seem to think that since your old self died, the sin that dwells in the members of your flesh  no longer has an effect on you. Good! Maybe you have reached full spiritual maturity? 

My test for myself is examining myself in light of the fruit of the Spirit:  Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

I look at them and realize that since I have been a Christian, God has grown these areas in my life - that did not happen over night, it's been a process. Just because He cleansed our spirit, doesn't mean we are immediately holy. If we die, our spirit separates from our flesh and yes we are presented pure and spotless. However, we who remain alive in this world still must practice those attributes given to us. And we all need to grow, be transformed into Christ-like beings. Spiritual sanctification is instant but then our mind, emotions and will needs to demonstrate, act out we we believe. It's easy to talk the talk.

I still get impatient, get frustrated and angry, flying off the handle sometimes - ( mainly with my mom and my wife). I still get selfish and do things that might be viewed as NOT loving my neighbor as myself. I have come a long way and as the phrase goes ( I am a work in progress)

All of us are practicing Loving God and our neighbor and fail at times and so we are reminded to walk in the spirit, focus in things above, on Jesus, but we don't ALL the time. If we did the world would see the light in all of us. The world would see Christ in everyone one of us without flaws and hypocrisy.  

So two  questions: Do you fail at times with loving God and others? Are you a sinner? ( Not one who practices sin but one who slips up now and then and needs to confess to God and others when it happens)?

4 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Then you should tare the following verse from your Bible...

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Paul wrote that and understood that it was a conscious daily decision, backed by prayer, with the power of God to enable you. Why would God numerously remind the Christian throughout the Bible not to fall into sin if the new born never had problem with it?

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body , you will live." Rom.8:13

>>> That means we actively put to death (mortify) the deeds of the flesh, it is an ongoing, daily task'

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

>>> Is this message just for the unbeliever or is it for us as well?

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph. 4:30

>>> Wait a minute now, could this message be for Peterlag too?

Each Epistle written by Paul contained some sort of rebuke, correction and warnings:

 "And do not be conformed  to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Rom. 12:2

>>> This is spiritual growth. One doesn't become mature at the moment he believes. He is not even aware of many of his sins and must now clean house. Again your spirit is cleansed. But sanctification is ALSO a process, by which the Spirit separates you from your bad habits.

"Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy." Rom. 13:13

>>> Some need to be reminded of this, especially if it was part of their old ways.

"Now I plead with you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." 1 Cor. 1:10

>>> Emmm ... Do you think there is division in the body of Christ? There are constant arguments and disagreements, as you have plainly stated yourself.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Cor. 7:1

>>> Wait a minute, didn't Christ cleanse us already? Yes, our spirits, but apparently the Corinthians came from a seriously stained life and backslid often. John MacArthur said that Corinth was like modern day Amsterdam - worldly, filled with the lustful living.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." Gal. 5:1

>>> Yes people, Christians get entangled in sin and revert back to being under the Law: but we understand that we our still held to this commandment: "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength ... and you shall love your neighbor as yourself." Mark 12:30, 31  

>>> Do we do this ... all the time? Gal. 5:19-21 is a long list of the works of the flesh >>> Are we involved in any of this activity? Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God, but what if we don't practice them and slip up once in awhile? Spiritual maturity is being honest with yourself, looking in the mirror at your sin and recognizing it and asking for forgiveness to God and to others if we sin against them.

 And what about the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches? Five out of seven received a rebuke and told to repent. Repent ... repent from what, I thought we all died to ourselves and were now walking purely with the Spirit? Nope. Philadelphia and Smyrna were the only churches not rebuked. The rest had problems. Well these were all first century churches; but also church -types throughout the ages and so we see these problems in the Church today, in ourselves, problems of the flesh!

7 hours ago, Peterlag said:

I do not see what you see. So we do not agree. I left out verse 17 because it's a different point than 16 and 18. This 17 says they don't agree. In my mind I see we are either in one or the other and the two do not agree. You see them working together in us at the same time.

So you think verse 17 is communicating something different than verses 16 and 18 and don't see them all in the same context?

I see the the spirit warring against the flesh. I am conscious of the lure, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life.  I am conscious that if I don't get up and cover my day with a prayer for His guidance and protection, the enemy will mess with me. He knows my weaknesses. He can't destroy us or snatch us out of the Fathers hand, but he can certainly distract and disturb our walk. This is why the Bible continually reminds us to walk in the spirit, to deny the old self DAILY.

As Christians we are told to mortify the old self, die to the self. But even as we believe wholeheartedly, we sometimes fall back into our old habits. I do see this war going on. But of course Christ has defeated sin and death in us so spiritually we are secure, sealed, saved.

We walk in the spirit and simply say no to these fleshly temptations as they come. Yes, are under Grace, not the Law. But do we always love our neighbors as ourselves? Do we love our enemies? If all Christians did that, wow ... that would I guess be the unlimited potential available to us. Why haven't we reached it? Sin still gets in the way.

Paul stated clearly that he did things that he didn't want to do spiritually, but that his sinful flesh was responsible for those things. He too saw them working  in opposition to each other at the same time. That is what verse 17 says. It also implies that YOU and everyone else "may not do the things that you please". Again, no one walks perfectly in the Spirit. None of the prophets did, none of the Apostles, none of the Popes, Priests, Pastors or anyone else has walked perfectly in the Spirit. We have our moments of perfection. I believe God's will is done through us to accomplish His perfect plan. But rest assured He factors in all our blunders.  Thankfully He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent,  loving,  merciful, forgiving, patient and gracious.

2 hours ago, Peterlag said:

I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Why did you leave out vs. 17?

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please." That is exactly what Paul was talking about, doing these he did not want to do and reasoned that it was not him (spiritually), but the sin that swelled in him.

If the spirit is dead (all who do not have Christ), then this scripture means nothing to that person, since their dead spirit cannot war against their flesh. They are just living in the flesh, to serve sin.

But this verse is not talking about them. It is talking about born again Christians, who experience this war between two natures. Now the more spiritually mature you are, the less this becomes a battle. We are to walk in the Spirit, but sometimes stumble.

If you honestly believe you walk in the Spirit 100% of the time, then you have lived a perfect life since becoming a Christian. You have loved your neighbor perfectly and loved and obeyed God perfectly ... didn't think anyone could do that! 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

What I show is not at all related to "the 7 year tribulation view" with respect to Daniel 9. As the articles make clear, and the reasons why.

Everyone is welcome to their views; but few can provide a concrete scriptural foundation to support them

"The 1290 days come first, then the 45, then the 1260."

^^^ That is 7 years right there.

Unless the 1290 is without tribulation? This would be the time when the Two Witnesses are evangelizing to the Jews, the Antichrist has not been revealed yet and there is still a false sense of peace and safety on earth? Then the AC reveals himself, attacks and kills the witnesses and goes after the Jews. ???

Please state your view and outline events without giving us a long dissertation.

On 8/24/2020 at 2:56 AM, Peterlag said:

Speak for yourself. My flesh does not get in the way. It's been crucified with Christ. It's dead... completely dead in him.

We have a dual nature. Though your  spiritual part of you was cleansed, and that at any moment you passed away your spirit would go to be with the Lord; your flesh is not clean. Sin dwells in the members of your flesh. We still Sin, though it is not sin unto death, the sanctification if our flesh is life long. Yes we are dead to Sin, it does not have power over us to ultimately lead to judgment, but we are not pure souls walking around loving each other as we should.

PROOF: PAUL explains this very problem and mkst are ci fused about it still.

For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate... For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing" (Romans 7:15, 18b-19).

It would be nice if we never returned (backslid) into our old ways, but we do. But some maybe like yourself ha e even surpassed the Apostle Paul's spiritual maturity and totally conquered the fleshly desires that we are tempted with?

On 8/20/2020 at 2:43 PM, WilliamL said:

And in Dan. 7 and 12, 3 1/2 times.

The 1290 days come first, then the 45, then the 1260.

The first two are pre-wrath and pre-rapture.

The latter is during the wrath and post-rapture.

Blog articles on this subject:

29. The 1290 and 1335 Days of Daniel 12:11-12

Presents a more literal and accurate translation of Daniel 12:11-12, and explains what this prophecy reveals about the sequence of End Time events.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1440-the-1290-and-1335-days-of-daniel-1211-12/

30. The 1260 Days

Describes where in the sequence of End Time events the 1260 days/3½ time/42 months prophecies of Daniel 7 and 12 and Revelation 11-12-13 will be fulfilled, what will happen in those days, and how they will end.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

I am aware of the 7 year tribulation view, I don't view it thay way. I see it as the 1260 and 1290 within the 1335, 3 1/2 years plus roughly 2 months.

21 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 There is a huge difference between Tribulation and Wrath.  

And for others just a little more clarification on
The dead being judged and saints being rewarded comes after Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years, the end of the Lords Day after the last battle and at the Throne Judgment/lake of fire, before the New and improved Heaven and earth.  

Wrath is not something casual like the plagues and stuff.  

The difference between the two  (need to look them up yourself,  as this is just the gist)

Tribulation   -   is felt and happening here on the earth and is more internal,  
Gods Wrath  -  is coming from heaven and is more external.

Tribulation is  -   persecution, affliction, distress, pressure, 

2347 thlípsis –  tribulation, especially internal pressure that causes someone to feel confined (restricted, "without options").

 carries the challenge of coping with the internal pressure of a tribulation, especially when feeling there is "no way of escape" ("hemmed in").

 (and for a little more clarity check out  4730 stenoxōría  distress which is more external)

Wrath   -  on the other hand is : anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.  

3709  rising up from an ongoing (fixed) opposition.  Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning 'to teem, to swell'  implies it is not a sudden outburst, but rather God's  fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation

God is LONG SUFFERING.  With that,
He has been watching all this evil going on and it's BUILDING UP. HE HAS TO WAIT until  'IT IS FINISHED'  to let it lose, because His Wrath will end it. 

He has allowed the choices to be made and has watched the most evil and sinful  and deceptive and things HE HATES happening to the people and planet He created for HIS PLEASURE.  And it's not just for HIM but those who LOVE HIM (Who He loved first) (and also the ignorant being taken advantage of). 
 
He has been watching evil souls take candy from babies for years AND FINALLY, finally, finally HE GETS TO LET IT GO and all those who have ignored or stuck their noses up at HIS POWER are going to get it.  THERE WILL BE NO QUESTION LEFT  in any mind of 

WHO IS WHO AND WHAT IS WAHT , and THAT SHAKING IS HAPPEING ON HEAVEN AND EARTH.   

It's not like he hasn't warned us.  It not like it wasn't written for everyone to read and see and choose in
THE BEST SELLER OF ALL TIME, HIS WORD, The Bible. 

 

The wrath if God comes towards the end if the Great Tribulation period. The wrath exists in the 7 Bowls "filled with God's wrath" (Rev. 15:7). Therefore, wrath comes prior to the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. This does not negate that at the end of the 1000 years, God will also judge those within that time period who have sinned and additionally any who have died without Christ after the First Resurrection.

But you are right that Christians have been and will be subject to tribulation ... But spared God's wrath, which is strictly assigned to all unbelievers.

We also can view the "Day of the Lord" as including both periods of judgment, one prior to the Millennial Kingdom and one at the end of it.

"One day to the Lord is as 1000 years ..."

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

It could be but I haven't looked into it. I know that when I see 'times, time and half a time' in relation to eschatology it's 'a season' and I don't define it as some do as 3.5 years. The half hour of silence has intrigued me but I haven't sussed it out. 

In Rev. 13  we see 42 months

Rev. 11, 1260 days

Then 1290  and 1335 days on Dan. 12

= 3 1/2 years

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Not exactly. "And I saw..." does not tell us one follows from the other. That's a post hoc fallacy i.e., after this, therefore resulting from it: used to indicate that a causal relationship has erroneously been assumed from a merely sequential one." From this we don't even have an order of events that demands the trumps follow the seals.

We can't rely on chapter and verse either as those divisions are merely for reference and do not appear in the source text.

If John had recorded 'Then...' in 8:2 as he did in 8:3 and in every instance where the order of the sounding of the trumpets is described in the 8th chapter, then yes the trumps would follow the 7th seal. That isn't the case. The trumps are sounded in order, they begin to sound at a time we have to determine from other evidence.

Right. The silence may suggest a separation between the opening of the scroll and the enactment of it, a long period of time _ on earth of course. It seems plausible to me that when Jesus arrived in Heaven, He was given the scroll and He opened it then. It is a prophetic scroll about a future time. So the actions/events written about in the scroll  don't  kick off until the trumpets start to blow.

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Ezekiel opens with the same living creatures, described as each having all four faces. Interesting that John was showed just one different face on each. Some see the symbolism as Lion = strength, Ox = sacrifice, Man = dominion, Eagle = swiftness. These four creatures announce the four horsemen in order, Conquest, Conflict, Commodities, Carnage. Rev 6:1-8. The number four speaks of foundation. 

Eze 1:4-11  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.  (5)  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  (6)  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.  (7)  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.  (8)  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.  (9)  Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.  (10)  As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.  (11)  Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

Cherubum and Seraphim may have symbolic meaning as well, but they are living beings, angels with specific duties and abilities who look like their description. They aren't just attributes of God, since it says they are living beings.

Scripture often has both literal and symbolic meanings. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture. You can't discard the literal meaning though.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Lion king of the wild animals, eagle of the birds, ox of domestic animals, and man.  Gods creations.  Nice.  

Seems you have it all down.  How wise.  

No, I was  being facetious, using my imagination as someone would who does not take that literally. BUT I do take this literally: " ...And in the midst of the throne and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. the first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a ox, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within ... "Rev. 4:6-8

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It just isn't about flesh.  It's about SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS.  Idolatry.  Worship.  Lack of knowledge. Deception.  and the likes thereof. 

It's a spiritual war which the destruction manifest in the physical realm.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The "serpent" in the garden,  would you ever believe a snake was talking?  Never.  

That was Satan, the most powerful of all angels who could appear as any creature or man and speak.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

There aren't going to be horses with lions heads in which fire comes out their mouths.  Yes, we read and take LITERAL what is to be taken that way but when it it not possible, we MUST go to the spiritual.  

So when you read in Revelation descriptions of the angels guarding the throne of God with heads like a lion, ox, eagle and man, each with six wings and eyes all around, you don't take that literally? And if not, what do these descriptions mean spiritually? Now your imagination will kick in ... "Let's see, the angels are strong like an ox, fast like a lion, intelligent like a man and can see everything around them."

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 9:17

Remember at the 5th trumpet, demon locusts come out if the smoke from the abyss, as from a volcano, an fissure beneath that extends to the center of the earth where demons have been locked up to this point. Then a star (angel) comes down from heaven and opens the Abyss and let's them out. They have stingers like scorpions that torture mankind for 5 months. That means they are physical - demons that manifest themselves physically as things creatures. After that episode is over, they manifest themselves as firey horsemen 200,000,000 of them. However, these creatures are setting the world on fire, their weapons this time are fire and brimstone and so it is not clear if are visible or not to man, just that they are causing fire. It is likely that this fire has a life of it's own and as John looked at it, He saw fire that looked like horses, demons with firey breastplates. You must have seen movies that show the devil or demons in the fire? Scary.

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

the smoke and brimstone and fire.  

These are literal effects of a volcanic eruption. Remember when  the second trumpet sounds, "something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown I to the sea". This is either a description of a super - volcanic eruption where a huge portion of the mountain blows off and lands in the sea or it's an asteroid. This causes massive waves which sink 1/3 of the ships in the sea. This is literal stuff.

Now Yellowstone is a possible contender. HOWEVER,  the entrance into the Bottomless Pit is said to be outside Jerusalem, east towards the Dead Sea (also known as The Devil's Sea, The Sea of Lot, The Sea of Sodom), where also Jesus sent the demons into the pigs then to their deaths into the Abyss, and also in the same area Jesus was tempted by Satan. Well, this whole area is part of the Great Syrian/African Rift that has a history of  volcanic activity. Sodom and Gomorrah were swallowed and burned there. There are some 30 volcanoes, some active in Africa and inactive in this area. But if God opens that Rift, a crack in the Earth,  all  Hell will  break  loose!

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I read somewhere that they saw the book of Revelation kind of like a song.  Lots of information with Hallelujah choruses in between. 

I don't think that we are giving the spiritual side of death enough credit through out the prophecy.   (Probably from all the theory people trying to scare us into, whatever). 

Another example might be - 1/3 of mankind can be destroyed and not a single body fall dead on earth.  They take the mark of the beast in one way or another and keep on living right beside us. Spiritually no longer alive in Christ, but dead in Christ alive in the flesh.   I understand wars are real and there will be physical deaths but I think many of the "deaths" spoken of are spiritual, not physical. 

Why would anyone believe anyone who went around murdering and killing people then claim to be God himself?  


I agree that the "seals" are information of action to come.  It is the knowledge and wisdom absorbed from the Word, and when you see it happening you know the trump has blown, the action has begun,  and what to look for next.    

The meaning of the seals, I think are cleared up  here
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 

That isn't some "action" that can be witnessed by an "event" or a "mark" that can be seen .  It is IN their foreheads, the brain.  

 

Many have pondered about the mark. There is the fact that you can't buy or sell unless you have the mark of the Beast, which is why many think it is a visible mark or implanted chip.

But then Again, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is invisible and spiritual. ???

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I read somewhere that they saw the book of Revelation kind of like a song.  Lots of information with Hallelujah choruses in between. 

I don't think that we are giving the spiritual side of death enough credit through out the prophecy.   (Probably from all the theory people trying to scare us into, whatever). 

Another example might be - 1/3 of mankind can be destroyed and not a single body fall dead on earth.  They take the mark of the beast in one way or another and keep on living right beside us. Spiritually no longer alive in Christ, but dead in Christ alive in the flesh.   I understand wars are real and there will be physical deaths but I think many of the "deaths" spoken of are spiritual, not physical. 

Why would anyone believe anyone who went around murdering and killing people then claim to be God himself?  


I agree that the "seals" are information of action to come.  It is the knowledge and wisdom absorbed from the Word, and when you see it happening you know the trump has blown, the action has begun,  and what to look for next.    

The meaning of the seals, I think are cleared up  here
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 

That isn't some "action" that can be witnessed by an "event" or a "mark" that can be seen .  It is IN their foreheads, the brain.  

 

You are spiritualizing scripture that is suppossed to be read literally.  You can stretch your imagination to interpret something written plainly and specific as something abstract. Why? I've heard some interpretations from people who are supposed to be teachers that sound so different from what it literally says. I just don't believe God intended us to be so confused. If it says the angel of death comes to kill 1/3 of the planet specifically through wars, famine, pestilence, beasts then that's 2.5 billion. Why symbolize that? If it says the greatest earthquake that ever occured will level mountains and all tall buildings, that's what will happen - don't symbolize it! If 200, 000 demon locusts come out of the Abyss and torture all unbelievers for specifically 5 months, then that is what will happen. If the sea roars because of the greatest earthquake or a super volcanic eruption and sinks 1/3 of the boats on the planet - that's specific and so that will happen. 100 pound hail stones are possible as well. 1/3 of the planet will be in fire.

Some scholars even interpret that Jesus will not return physically and thus not physically rule on earth for 1000 years too and that the 1000 years is not literal. 

I think when someone's theology in one area is off and a literal interpretation of Revelation contradicts this view, they must come up with "Oh this just can't be literal ... so this, this, this and that and this, must be symbolic! And then before long nothing  is taken literally. Some do that with Genesis too.  And that leads to another parts of scripture. They begin to pick and choose which knes they accept and then symbolize the rest

Jesus fulfilled some 300 prophecies during His First coming, why should we expect that He would not literally fulfill another 300 during His Second Coming?