12 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 We serve with Christ in the future. Yet Israel and the other nations have a different relationship.

 

Zech 14:9 - The Lord will be king over the whole earth.  On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

v. 16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.... If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

Ezk 40:45,46 - The room facing south is for the priests who have charge of the temple, and the room facing north is for the priests who have charge of the altar.  42:13 - .... There they (the priests) who approach the LORD, will eat the most holy offerings.  There they will put the most holy offerings; the grain offerings, the sin offering, and the guilt offerings; for the place is holy.

Ezk 43:4 - The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing East. v. 7 - Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet.  This is where I will live among the Israelites forever.

Ezk 48:35 - And the distance around will be 18,000 cubits; and the name of the city from that time on will be: The Lord is THERE.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I serve the eternal Christ now, not in the nebulous future. Jesus is the great I AM (Ex. 3:14, Jn 8:58)

1)The Law of proper Hermeneutics states that we cannot use OT scriptures without full support of the new (NT) since the Bible is one book, not two. The NT explains and fulfills the OT, while the OT serves as a foundation for the NT.

2) The Bible centers in on the redemption of mankind which the Lord promised from the beginning of time (Gen. 3:15) and fully accomplished it at the cross through Jesus Christ.

3) Israel was the means God used in order to accomplish His eternal goal: Forgiveness of sins, righteousness, eternal life, all in Christ Jesus as we become the living temples of the Lord (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19). Israel's role ended when Christ came and fulfilled all of God's promises to them when He redeemed them at the cross. The Jews that received Christ received their inheritance while the ones who didn't, died in their sins.

4) The old covenant law ended with the final destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 (no more sacrifices for sins, no more priesthood, no more law, not more OT prophets because all these things were fulfilled in Christ. See the book of Hebrews), while the new covenant began with the shed blood of the Lamb of God at the last supper (Mat. 26:28, Mark 14:24, Lk 22:20). This new covenant is the everlasting covenant that will never end (Heb. 13:20).

5) Lastly, it is an error to justify our beliefs by merely quoting out of context OT scriptures to prove our beliefs without looking at the whole picture of God's eternal covenant in Jesus Christ. 

15 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

People should really try to quote others accurately! I am not Joel Richardson. 

THE COMING RESTORATION OF THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL BY JOEL RICHARDSON (@JOEL7RICHARDSON)

No, but you are responsible for quoting him. Don't cop out. 

2 hours ago, Tampered With said:

Originally appeared in the Covenant and Controversy library https://www.covenantandcontroversy.com/articles/the-coming-restoration-of-the-kingdom-of-israel

Posted with permission of Covenant and Controversy library

THE COMING RESTORATION OF THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL 

 

BY JOEL RICHARDSON (@JOEL7RICHARDSON)

---

If you ask most Christians why Jesus died on the cross, they will most often quote, affirming that, “God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”[1] The idea is that the “good news” of the Bible is summarized in that Jesus died on the cross so that anyone who believes in Him can go to heaven after they die.

Of course, when Christians say these kind of things, they are not wrong. This is certainly part of the good news. But the gospel is far more than just John 3:16 and being saved from hell. The gospel, as it was proclaimed by Jesus and the Apostles, is an extension of the good news that was proclaimed throughout the Old Testament. So what else beyond merely going to heaven after we die is entailed when we speak of God’s good news for mankind?

The simple answer to this question is found in the phrase, “the restoration of all things.” Shortly after Pentecost, when Peter preached God’s good news to the crowds, he specifically spoke of the “the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.”[2] What is this period, what were the prophets speaking of, and what exactly will be restored?

The period being spoken of is the age of the Messiah, after Jesus returns and establishes His kingdom. As to what will be restored, Jesus will not only restore the earth, but also the Kingdom of Israel. Within the grand unfolding plan of God are His many promises not only to restore Eden—a glorious garden-paradise, but also to restore the Jewish Kingdom to a glory far greater than during the days of King David or Solomon.

Let’s consider just a few of the passages that speak of these days. In the prophecy of Isaiah, we are told that during the messianic age, in partnership with Jesus, the righteous will actually renovate the earth: “Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devastations; and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations.”[4] Elsewhere, the prophet Amos speaks of the days, “When the plowman will overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; when the mountains will drip sweet wine.” Under the rule of Jesus, God’s people will, “plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit.”[3] The prophet Zechariah says that “‘In that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.’”[5]

In speaking of those days, the prophet Ezekiel describes, a river that will run southward, out of Jerusalem, turning the Dead Sea into a fresh water lake, teeming with life:

It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes. And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many.[6]

When is the last time that any Christian you know declared the good news that in the age to come, after we die, we will be able to fish? I don’t know about you, but for me, this is truly good news!

The Scriptures also affirm that after Jesus returns, He will set in place a new global leadership structure. From God’s perspective, the primary purpose of every position of leadership is to serve others. Yet today, I think it is fair to say that many, if not most politicians, seek and maintain positions of authority not primarily for the purpose of truly serving others, but in order to secure greater wealth, power, and control. This is a problem that is common throughout the world. How will Jesus respond to this when He returns? Psalm 110 tells us that Jesus will literally kill unrighteous rulers and politicians throughout the earth: “The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath. He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.”[7]

Not only will Jesus’ return be accompanied by his execution of a host of wicked, self-serving politicians and dictators throughout the earth, but He will also replace them with those who have proven themselves to be faithful and humble leaders: “Well done, my good servant! Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities,” He will declare.[8] When I think of how many throughout the earth groan under the weight of oppressive government, I rejoice at this profoundly good news. Genuinely humble servant leaders will assist Jesus in governing the new world. Hallelujah!

Yet as wonderful and glorious as these descriptions of a restored earth are, they are only part of the picture. Beyond a restored and glorified garden paradise, the Scriptures also speak of a glorified, restored Kingdom of Israel. If we neglect to proclaim either of these two dimensions of the coming messianic age, we are simply not proclaiming the complete gospel message that was declared by God’s “holy prophets from ancient time.”

After Jesus rose from the dead, His disciples asked Him about the time that He would restore the glory of the Jewish kingdom, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”[9] In no way did Jesus rebuke his disciples for their question. Instead, He assured them that at the proper time, according to the time set by the Father, He will return and restore the Kingdom of Israel. The Scriptures are brimming with references that testify to this reality. At the every onset of the Gospel of Luke, the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that the son she would bear would forever reign on the restored throne of David:

“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”[10] 

The throne of David, we must understand is not a vague reference to the rule of Jesus. This is the restored Jewish royal monarchy.

Later, as Jesus spoke to His disciples, He told them of the time after He returns when they would assist Him in judging the twelve tribes of Israel:

“Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”[11]

The restoration of all twelve tribes in the age to come shows that indeed we are looking forward to a fully restored Kingdom of Israel. Though few Christians discuss this aspect of the Bible, the Scriptures in both the Old and New testaments are brimming with descriptions of the coming kingdom of God.

When we take a real hard look at the way that the Christian Church has related to the Jewish community throughout most of Church history, it is no surprise that a failure to recognize this critical aspect of the good news—namely the coming restoration of the Kingdom of Israel—often accompanied the horrific mistreatment of the Jewish people by Christians. In my most recent book, When a Jew Rules the World,[12] I carefully lay out the case for why the Christian Church must reclaim the fullness of the gospel as it was proclaimed by Jesus and the apostles. In doing so, we will accomplish much. First, we will proclaim a message that most Jews—those who are far more Old Testament literate than many Christians—will relate to, understand, and receive far more naturally. Second, we will be much better equipped to avoid the great errors and sins of our forefathers with the long history of Christian persecution of the Jewish people. And finally, we will prepare our hearts to receive Jesus at His return with hearts full of joy and understanding as we all together exclaim with fullness of joy: “Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the king of Israel!”[13]

________________________

 

[1]  John 3:16
[2]  Acts 3:21
[3]  Amos 9:9-15
[4]  Isaiah 61:4
[5] Zechariah 3:10
[6]  Ezekiel 47:9-10
[7]  Psalm 110:5-6
[8]  Luke 19:17
[9]  Acts 1:6-7
[10]  Luke 1:31-33, emphasis mine
[11] Matthew 19:28-29
[12] Richardson, J. (2015). When a Jew rules the world. WND.
[13] John 12:13

 

None of those scriptures that you quoted point to a restoration of a future Israel. I challenge you to post them all so that you can prove your assertions. 

I will quote two examples that you gave,   

Acts 3:20–21 (NASB95)

"And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

²¹ whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

Nowhere do I read in these two verses about the restoration of Israel, not present and not future. What Peter was speaking about was the restoration of humanity to the intent that God had given mankind from the beginning of time. 

Luke 1:31–32 (NASB95)

³¹ “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

³² “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David."

So, where does it say in this passage anything a future Israel? Don't you know that the throne of glory is in the Spirit, that is is in heaven, or do you really think that Jesus deserves less than that? 

Isn't Jesus God Almighty, or do you think that somehow He remained a man only? Now, go ahead and prove your presuppositions. God ahead, I invite you to embarrass me. 

1 minute ago, Tampered With said:

 

People that are afraid to learn the truth of God's word are more interested in their pet doctrines rather than glorifying the Lord of glory. 

23 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

I would suggest that you read Ezk chp 40 and on. Jesus comes in through the East Gate and the soles of his feet walk in the Temple. The nation's of the Earth must observe the Feast of the Tabernacles.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I suggest that you take my post and prove me wrong point by point. However, if you think we must go back to the law in the future, including going back to old covenant feasts (which by the way, the old covenant was done away at the cross, and officially closed with the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70), you must agree then that Christ's death on the cross was needless. 

Galatians 2:21 (NASB95)

²¹“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, missmuffet.

I'm going back here to make this important correction: All those who enter the 1000-year Millennium (which is redundant, btw), will be within the time when Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) will be building a world-wide Kingdom. As per His own parables about that Kingdom, it will start out small, like the grain of a mustard seed, growing thoughout the Millennium until it becomes a tree in which all the birds may come and nest. His Kingdom will start out with relatively no influence until it grows and permeates the earth, like leaven in a huge lump of dough.

Matthew 13:31-33 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

33 Another parable spake he unto them;

"The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."

Daniel noticed that as well in ...

Daniel 2:31-35 (KJV)

31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Interpreted in ...

Daniel 2:44-45 (KJV)

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thus, the stone is first "cut out of the mountain without hands" and grows until it "fills the whole earth (Land)" becoming itself "a great mountain."

Paul gave us the basics of the Millennium (Latin for "a thousand years") in "the Resurrection Chapter," 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ [The Messiah] the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [At the BEGINNING of the Millennium.] 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [At the END of the Millennium.]

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, the Millennium is the time of the Messiah's Kingdom as He is busy building that Kingdom for His Father, putting all enemies under His feet by SUBDUING them, PUTTING DOWN all other rule, authority, and power! Only at the END of the 1,000 years will death itself be destroyed, and all of this is reflected in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-15 (KJV)

[BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM]

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[DURING THE MILLENNIUM]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[AFTER THE MILLENNIUM]
[HaSatan's Last Attempt and the Fire]

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[The Great White Throne Judgment]

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And, THIS is what Yeshua` was talking about in His parables:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven (the Kingdom from the sky) is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
.....

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS (THE MESSIAH'S) KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Verse 41 is equated to 1 Corinthians 15:24b and Revelation 20:11-13.
Verse 42 is the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20:14-15, and
verse 43 is equated to 1 Corinthians 15:24a, 28 and Revelation 21:1-22:5.

Both of the following parables are at the BEGINNING of Yeshua`s 1000-year Kingdom:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.' 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, 'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.' 17 And he said unto him, 'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.' 18 And the second came, saying, 'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.' 19 And he said likewise to him, 'Be thou also over five cities.' 20 And another came, saying, 'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.' 22 And he saith unto him, 'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?' 24 And he said unto them that stood by, 'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.' 25 (And they said unto him, 'Lord, he hath ten pounds.') 26 'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.'"

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?' 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.' 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?' 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.' 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The so called “Millennium” is a manufactured belief that holds no water in the scriptures. 

We cannot take assumptions and run with it as if It was the truth.

Neither Jesus nor any of the writers of the NT ever even hinted such thing. The fact is that Jesus is God, and God reigns in heaven forever outside of time and space, should be enough for us to understand that God does not dwell among sinful people because He is holy.

Besides that Jesus clearly said that His Kingdom is not of an earthly kind (Jn 18:36). God does not dwell on earth because  the heavens and the heavens of heavens cannot contain Him (1Ki. 8:27). “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool of My feet.” (Isa 66:1, Acts 7:48-51).

Si, to attempt to bring Jesus, who is God Almighty, to earth, is to attempt to bring God to our level and make Him into a god made into our own image and likeness.

By the way, we have also read into the text of Rev. 20 and assumed what it doesn’t say. 

Most Christians have never really read, much less understood the book of Revelation, yet they know how to read men's opinions about it and thus open themselves to deception.

I affirm that the “Millennial kingdom” was invented by men who did not understand the basic divine principles of the Holy Scriptures.  

39 minutes ago, douge said:

The following verses speak to dispensations:

1 Corinthians 9:17 Ephesians 1:10 Ephesians 3:2 Colossians 1:25 in the KJV

The KJV is only an English translation. If you'd look it up in the Greek, the noun means stewardship or administration. Besides that "dispensations" are nothing but nouns and nouns do not dictate doctrines. 

3622. οἰκονομία oikonomía; gen. oikonomías, fem. noun from oikonoméō (3621), to be a manager of a household. The position, work, responsibility or arrangement of an administration, as of a house or of property, either one’s own or another’s (Luke 16:2; Sept.: Is. 22:19); a spiritual dispensation, management, or economy (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; Col. 1:25). The “dispensation of God” means the administration of divine grace.
Act., the administrative activity of the owner or of the steward; pass., that which is administered, the administration or dispensation of the fullness of times (Eph. 1:10). The object of oikonomía, dispensation, is the relative phrase hḗn proétheto of Eph. 1:9, translated “which he hath purposed.” It is the divine purpose which is said to be administered. The meaning is the administration of God’s saving purpose pertaining to the fullness of the times. Therefore, oikonomía here is to be taken as pass. See Eph. 3:2, 9 (UBS); 1 Tim. 1:4 (TR).

Zodhiates, Spiros. The complete word study dictionary: New Testament 2000 : n. pag. Print.

Dispensations are man made, not God inspired. 

On 10/24/2019 at 9:34 AM, douge said:

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul persecuted the church of God, but Paul obtained mercy and became a pattern of our salvation.

Our pattern, our example of believing faith is to be found only in Paul's epistles.

We do not pattern how to be saved unto eternal life in this dispensation of grace from any other dispensation, or from any other books in the Bible other than the epistles of Paul.

Sorry to disagree with you, but there is no such thing as a dispensation of grace. We now live in the new covenant that will never end. Dispensationalism is an unblibical doctrine that is not taught in the scriptures. 

Matthew 26:27–28 (NASB95)

"And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;

²⁸ for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

Luke 22:20 (NIV)
20 "In the same way, after the supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you."

1 Corinthians 11:25 (NIV)
 25 "In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Gentle-Warrior,

May I answer that question?

It's taken from the Latin Vulgate [rapio], where we derive our English word Rapture. It's translated in the Greek as 'harpazo", meaning caught up, snatched up forcefully. The Greek word "harpazo" is in the King James (AV) five times [Acts 8:39, 2 Cor 12:2, 2 Cor 12:4, 1 Thes 4:17 and Rev 12:5. There are other words and allusions used to describe the Rapture and snatching away also. 

So the word 'Rapture' does appear in a translation of the Bible. 

1 Thes. 4:17 does not speak about the end of history, if that is what you are thinking about. We cannot have the end of history without first understanding that the old covenant had to officially end by the accompanying destruction of the Jewish temple which would "officially" usher the new and everlasting covenant that would never end. 

So, for Paul to speak about being "caught up in the clouds", was simply a form or speech or a Hebrew metaphor that spoke of the coming judgment of the harlot "Israel." 

It is then imperative to go back to the Lord Jesus and understand that He spoke quite often about the judgment of Israel. In Mat. 23:34-39, Jesus spoke about the judgment of Jerusalem while in verse 36, He indicated that the judgment would take place in their own generation.

In chapter 24, He begins to describe the end of the covenant by pointing to the temple where no stone would remain on top of one another (24:1-14). The end which He referred was the end of Israel as a covenant nation (v:14). Also, the Lord added in verse 34 that all that He has been speaking about would take place in their own generation (v:34). 

Paul picked up on this revelation when he added that the sufferings of the Thessalonians were coming to an end with the judgment of the harlot nation.

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (NIV)

"For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews

¹⁵ who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone  

¹⁶ in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

A few years later, the Romans set up a siege against Jerusalem while 1.5 million Jews died in the hands of each other as the Roman army advanced to finish the task. The book of Revelation is the story of such events beginning in chapter 6 as it repeats the same story from different angles. 

Of course, most Christians have already believed a futuristic Hollywood style that reflects our lack of understanding of God's word. Their take makes no sense because it cannot be proven if we take things into the correct context. So, only those who have eyes to see will begin to understand that no book of the bible was written to us. We are not the direct recipients of God's word, but we can apply it to our lives as long as we take God's word within the context it was intended. 

Going back to 1Thes. 4:17, the idea of being "caught up" with the Lord in the air, pointed to the inclusion of the Thessalonian church in taking part of the judgment of the harlot Israel. After all, they had been victims of the abuse of the Jews alongside with their Jewish brethren in the Lord. 

If you want to question verse 16, the dead in Christ were those who had been slain for the sake of the gospel. They came with the Lord (invisibly) to see the end of the criminal generation of murderers. Paul died in A.D. 64, so he too was present in the spirit to rejoice over God's holy justice. 

After the destruction of the temple and the Jewish mob gone for good, the new covenant assured them to always be with the Lord, just as we too are (Ro. 8:35-39). 

This might be difficult to swallow, especially when we have already made up our minds what certain scriptures mean. We need to be alert to be open to the teachings of the Lord, not the teachings of men, e.g. the Millennium, the great tribulation, etc. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+destruction+of+jerusalem+in+ad+70&qpvt=the+destruction+of+jerusalem+in+ad+70&FORM=VDRE

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Simple, 1 Thes. 4:17: those in Christ will be caught up. Then John 14: We will be escorted to heaven where Jesus has made homes for us. We will wait out the 70th week of Daniel in heaven, enjoy the marriage and supper, then join Jesus on white horse to return to earth for Armageddon.

I asked you a question as to what the rapture meant, not to provide scripture. Can you do that? 

On 10/24/2019 at 1:14 PM, iamlamad said:

I disagree because the scriptures disagree. 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. Nowhere do we find a verse where God's wrath is satisfied and he is no longer angry. 

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath. 

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Agreed that the actual events of Satan's wrath will be different than the events of God's wrath. Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints - while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. 

It would be much better to call this coming 7 year period of time as the 70th week of Daniel, and NOT "the tribulation." 

Why do you assume that Revelation was written for a star trek generation? Do you have chapter and verse to prove this silly assumption?

On 10/24/2019 at 9:31 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Trouble with Tribulation

 

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation…” (2 Corinthians 1:3,4a)

 Both our Lord and the Apostles warned us in Scripture that times of persecution would come upon the people of God. They warned us that tribulation would follow genuine devotion to Christ. Throughout the centuries the authentic followers of Jesus Christ have suffered greatly for their faith. They have been slandered, mocked, beaten, crucified, stoned, ravaged by wild beasts, tortured on the rack, sold into slavery, burned at the stake, and had their heads cut off for the sake of the true Gospel. Even today, all around the world, Christians are suffering horrible tribulation for their devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, more and more, this persecution is coming to America. And because of poor teaching, the American church is ill-prepared to deal with it.

We orthodox evangelicals pride ourselves in our ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We preach and teach the Historical / Grammatical method of interpretation, and rightly so. To us, the idea of reading allegories or other foreign ideas into the text is reprehensible. We also tend to pride ourselves on our ability to weed out theological positions that are purely based on false traditions and cultic mysticism, rather than solid scriptural evidence. This is because we rightly believe the Word of God is the inerrant final authority on all matters of faith and practice. For the most part, orthodox evangelicals contend for these hermeneutical principles in every area of theology, with one exception, eschatology. When it comes to the end times, preachers use all kinds of poetic license to develop their pet theories. No longer do they adhere to the notion that the Bible interprets the Bible; and that context determines the exact meaning of words. With eschatology, they tend to speculate when the bible is silent, and they diminish the clear meaning of God’s Word when it does not fit their narrative. With eschatology, all the rules are thrown out so they can change the meaning of words (just like cult leaders do) to support their aberrant end-time doctrines.

 

I will give you one glaring example of this trend using the word “tribulation.” The most popular end-times scenario, popularized by the late Tim Lehay and Jerry B. Jenkins in their Left Behind series of books goes something like this: The Great Tribulation is a period of future time when God’s wrath is poured out on the earth against unbelievers. This period of time lasts 7 years and marks the rise of the Antichrist. Since Christians are not subject to the wrath of God, all true believers in Christ will be raptured off planet earth just prior to the start of this seven year tribulation period. Sounds good, but there is a serious flaw in this definition of the word “tribulation.” Only a few times in scripture is the word tribulation used to speak of God’s punishment of the wicked. In 2 Thessalonians chapter one, God promises tribulation (affliction) to the ungodly immediately after He appears at His second coming. And in Revelation chapter two, Jesus says He will use tribulation (affliction) as a means of chastisement for the woman called Jezebel and those who follow her. All the rest of the references to tribulation are about Christians suffering affliction for their faith.

 

There is a serious problem with equating the concept of the great tribulation with the wrath of God. Because these ideas are two different concepts. Predominately the word “tribulation” in Scripture means the wrath of demoniacally inspired unbelievers persecuting the true believers of God. Thus, when authentic Christians are persecuted for their steadfast loyalty to the Savior Jesus Christ, they suffer tribulation. This tribulation is the wrath of Satan on genuine born again Christians. But on the other hand, “wrath” is God punishing the wicked for their sins, especially those who persecute true believers. Therefore, one concept is the wrath of God, and the other, the great tribulation, is the wrath of Satan.

Somehow through the writings of John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield, these concepts got intermingled and confused. To many evangelicals, Darby and Scofield are prophets of equal worth to the original 12 apostles. To them, when Scofield speaks, God must surrender to his interpretation. This is the kind of false traditionalism that many evangelicals unfortunately like. Since by their tradition, when Scofield speaks the debate is ended. And since Scofield has spoken, there is no need to test the spirits to see if they are of God. But if we really want to be true to our Reformation roots, we must examine what Darby, Scofield, Lehay, Jenkins and other pre-tribulationist say in the light of Scripture, just like anyone else.

Let’s get the definition of “tribulation” and see if it fits the Scofield / Lahay scenario. In Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the word tribulation means “affliction.” He wrote that the great tribulation is a time when the fury (wrath) of antichristian powers are focused on the Palestinian Jews primarily, and on the Gentile witnesses of God secondarily. In other words, the great tribulation is the distress of God’s people when they are persecuted by the enemies of God. Additionally, in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, tribulation is defined by the Greek words thlibo and thipsis to primarily mean the distress of Christians as they are persecuted, afflicted and troubled by outward forces and circumstances. This definition is clearly taught by our Lord as He spoke to his disciples (the church) about the end-times,

“Therefore when you (the church) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house-top not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

It is therefore evident by the context of Jesus Christ’s words that the great tribulation is defined as a time of horrible persecution of God’s elect, the church, who must flee from the wrath of Satan that comes by way of the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel said this period of time would last 3 ½ years and that “the power of the holy people (saints/elect) [would be] completely shattered.” (Daniel 12:7) Therefore the elect must endure through the great tribulation. This is the plain and correct meaning of both texts. And as the Lord tells us in the Book of Revelation,

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” (Revelation 7:13,14)

To come out of something means you first have to be in something. These are Christians who were martyred in the great tribulation. Thus, the great tribulation is not God’s wrath on unbelievers, but Satan’s antichristian wrath upon authentic blood bought believers in Christ. The term “elect” means anyone who is in Christ at the time.

But again, based on the writings of Scofield and other per-tribulation rapture theorists, the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. However, there is no evidence of this in Scripture. And because the Apostle Paul tells us Christians are not “appointed to wrath” (1 Thessalonians. 5:9), they assume Christians do not have to suffer through the great tribulation. But there is nothing in Scripture that specifically states every Christian is exempt from tribulation, including the great tribulation. In fact the opposite is true, as the Apostle Paul said, “So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you suffer.” (II Thessalonians 1:4,5)

Some Christians may be spared persecution in the great tribulation by the Lord in His sovereignty (Revelation 3:7-13), but many others will suffer for Christ. Even today, prior to the great tribulation, many people suffer horrible persecution and tribulation in hostile parts of the world, while other Christians live in relative peace and safety. During the great tribulation, a few pockets of Christians may be spared by God, but most Christians will endure the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. And as Christ said, unless He shortened those days, no flesh would be spared. But for the sake of the elect (the Church), he shortens those days.

There is a massive multi-million dollar industry dedicated to the assumption that the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. These proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture make millions of dollars writing books and making movies assuring Christian they do not have to suffer persecution or tribulation for their faith prior to the rapture. But these massive, complicated and bulky theories are held up by the flimsiest of Scriptural speculation and wordplay. It is like trying to lift the weight of an elephant off the ground using a kite string. No matter how hard you try the weight will break that string. Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution. So instead of soberly preparing people to face the tribulation to come, the American evangelical church is throwing parties in their fortresses made of sand. Instead of putting on the whole armor of God, the church is putting on its party hat. Instead of making solid disciples, the church is making spiritual revelers, drunk on the wine of end-time myths and fables. Once these notions are dispelled, the entire theory is washed away by the reality of Christ’s sobering predictions.

I believe the Lord is calling us back to His word. Back to counting the costs involved with true discipleship and devotion to Jesus Christ. We need to stop acting like the victory is final, because there is still more to come. We need to stop the elitist mentality that assumes persecution can never happen to us. We need to stop partying like we are already in Heaven. We need to stop the complacency and tom-foolery associated with false security. We need to take off our party hats and put back on the whole armor of God so we can stand in the evil day. We need to remember God has called us to be willing to suffer tribulation for His namesake. We need to be soberly prepared to walk through the great tribulation. We need to understand once again this world is not our home, and that we are only passing through on our way to our glorious reward in the life to come. We need to be prepared, along with our brothers and sisters around the world, to give up everything, even our lives if necessary, to be with the Lord in glory.

The trouble with tribulation is that it is coming our way. Are you spiritually prepared?

 

https://pulpitandpen.org/2017/11/09/the-trouble-with-tribulation/

 

 

Bless you brother. You are one of the few that understand what real tribulations are all about. As an extra, the tribulation that Jesus was talking about in Mat. 24 was to take place in their own generation (Mat. 24:34).

He was not referring to the end of history, but to the end of the old covenant with its accompanying destruction of the temple and all that the temple represented-- because a greater temple had come (Jn 2:19, 1Cor. 3:16, 6:19, Col. 1:27, etc.) 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4:¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

¹⁸ Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

^5:1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Notice here that Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his famous rapture verse. Why would Paul do that. Further, he said that "the Day" would come "as a thief." Yet, there is another scripture that Christ comes "as a thief."  Why would Paul write that? 

The answer is very simple, the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the DAy of the Lord. The moment after the rapture, it is be DAY OF THE LORD. The DAY will come as a thief because HE will come as a thief for the rapture - which will take very little time, and the Day will come - SUDDENLY  - and with no warning.  Paul goes on:

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now we have more information: the rapture / Day of the Lord, will come at a time people are saying "peace and safety." ... perhaps a day just like today.  But the DAY will start with "sudden destruction."

What is Paul's "sudden Destruction" that comes a moment after the rapture and starts the Day of the Lord? Paul goes on:

 

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Here Paul is giving us a paradigm: a comparison of two things brought right up in front of us so we can easily see it: Paul tells us those living "In Christ" will get "salvation" or be caught up. But at the same moment in time, those left behind will be "sudden destruction.

 

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (so shall we ever be with the Lord.)

Notice, those who are living "in Christ" are NOT appointed to wrath, but this coin has a flip side: those NOT living "in Christ" ARE appointed to wrath - that is the sudden destruction. 

What then IS this "sudden destruction."  Notice, when God raises the dead, there seems to be a  corresponding earthquake. In Matthew 27 he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." There will be an earthquake when God raises the two witnesses. I am convinced, when God raises the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a great earthquake, but since the dead in Christ are the world around, it is going to be the first worldwide earthquake. And, it will be Paul's Sudden destruction. Several people who have had dreams/visions of the rapture tell that the ground began to shake just as they were caught up. 

If we look in Revelation, where do we find the first big earthquake? That would be at the 6th seal and at the start of the Day of the Lord. Wow! That is just what Paul wrote!

If we back up to the 5th seal, for the martyrs of the church age, they are told they must wait a long time, unto all those who will be killed as they were - as church age martyrs - so until the final number is complete. THEN judgment will come. 

What does John write next? Of course the 6th seal when the judgment does begin! Therefore, according to Paul and John, the rapture MUST come between the 5th and 6th seals. And the great earthquake of the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - and it will be Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul DOES give us the timing of the rapture: it will come a moment before the Day of the Lord begins.

What is your understanding of the "rapture" and where does the word appear in the scriptures? 

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

Who are you responding to?  If it is me, what questions have you asked me that I have not answered?

Sorry, I thought I was responding to Diaste. 

11 hours ago, missmuffet said:

It does not sound like you read the book of Revelation literally. It sounds like you give Revelation your own words. That is dangerous. 

I have read the book of Revelation hundreds of times, and will continue to read it everyday for the rest if my life. 

I also read daily the rest if the 65 books of the Bible (in sections) without failure because it we don't understand the first 65 books of the Bible, how in the world can we assume we will be able to understand Revelation? 

God is God of order, design, specificity, plan and purpose.

I take the word of God very seriously, therefore when I explain scripture, I know what I’m talking about.

What is dangerous is not knowing how to read a book according to its correct genre.

One cannot read an apocalyptic book the same way one reads a novel. We must understand clues, idiomatic expressions, metaphors, symbolism, and cultural  expressions that are unique to the Hebrew mindset.

Most people have paid more attention yo what the “experts” have to say about Revelation than actually reading the book themselves. This is because some Christians believe “it's too difficult” to even bother reading it. 

By the way, I don't claim I know it all because I don't and no one does either, but at least I have begun to ask the Holy Spirit to teach me about the book He, Himself inspired John to write. 

Diaste, I will respond to questions when you respond to mine. 

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Objections:

Leading. Argumentative. Cherry picking.

The concept here is order of events. Beast first, then the Return of Jesus, as a whole. 

 

 

 

Have you ever thought that the the book of Revelation may not have been written for the future? Of course we all know that this book was written 2,000 years ago, specifically it addressed the seven churches of Asia Minor, but have you personally learned that this book was actually written for an intergalactic future that has meant absolutely nothing for 20 centuries and continues to be irrelevant to our present time? 

I think most Christians have never given this a thought because verses 1:1, 3:11, 22:7, 10 and 12 indicate that all the events were to take place in a short time for them, not for us. 

Think about it before you give me a generic response.

Blessings,  

9 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I'm not trying to label you, but understand your stance in theology.  May I ask what you mean by "the futuristic one"?  Are you speaking about the futuristic Israel or that you think all prophecy have been fulfilled?

By "futuristic" I mean the the doctrine of the "Millennium", the so called "Great Tribulation", "future Israel" being saved, etc. Most of those teachings are but a few hundred years old. 

As for end time prophecies, Christ has fulfilled them all, although we have yet to see the final judgment of the wicked, the return of the Lord, the resurrection of the dead and the unveiling of a new world where sin is no more. 

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Tell that to Peter, or any number of the OT prophets.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

God bless

I still claim that most of Christians do not understand God's word as it was written within the culture, language and intent of the original writers. Most people take the word of God as if it was directly written to the 21st century English population. 

What I have learned is that the day of the Lord was in reference to God's judgment on Israel and the coming close of the old covenant between God and Israel. Peter was indicating in a very Hebrew way that the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was around the corner.

In Hebrew culture and Scripture, the phrase heaven and earth was a common idiom used to refer to a system of government and specifically to the system of the old covenant Law. In other words, the phrase "heavens and earth" is covenantal language. It is not referring to the physical heavens and earth.

The Old Heavens and Earth was the Old Covenant and the New Heavens and Earth was to be the New Covenant where righteousness dwells. Christians are the New Creation and the New Heavens and Earth. Once again, the concept is spiritual/covenantal, not physical/literal.

I can explain the rest, but most people reject anything that doesn't fit their pre-programmed teachings. 

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

May I inquire if you are partial preterist or full preterist?

If you want to label me, I would say partial, but even then I have some problems with preterism. I prefer to read the word of God on my own. I exegete God's word, while asking the Holy Spirit to open my eyes, as I put Christ at the center of all the scriptures (as it should be).

One thing though, I hate Replacement Theology, but not as much the futuristic one. It is so unreal and so out of  bounds with God's word. Too many assumptions and much ignorance (no pun intended) 

Many have fallen for the trap of modern Israel. It is a deception and a log on many peoples' eyes. 

God bless, 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

And yet we have Rev 21 and Zech 14

What about Revelation 21 and why do you bring Zech 14 up? Do you have NT support that upholds Zech. 14? Second, do you have any proof that the book of Revelation was written for a star trek generation of 2,000 years plus later?

Imagine God lying to the first century church by inspiring a book that was completely irrelevant to them as well as for the past 2,000 years? 

That sounds odd to me.

21 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

True. 

Why didn't Jesus establish the kingdom of God on earth at the time that He was given all authority in heaven and on earth?  Because it wasn't time.  The gospel had to be preached to all the nations first in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham.  Then the end will come.

 

Just let me say that Jesus is too big to have a kingdom on earth. He is God Almighty who dwells in heaven as both Lord and God. God, in His wholly triune self will always reign in heaven, 

Isaiah 66:1 (NASB95)

1 "Thus says the Lord, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?"

1 Kings 8:27 (NASB95)

27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!"

John 18:36 (NASB95)

³⁶ “ Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Exodus 33:20 (NASB95)

^{20 "}But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

1 Timothy 6:16 (NASB95)

"Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

Something to meditate on... 

On 10/12/2019 at 7:44 PM, wingnut- said:

It really doesn't make a bit of sense, when you lay it out in a complete thought.  Start by the context Paul lays out.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

Now paraphrase it in modern English with your rendering of the verse.

 

Now brothers, concerning the coming of Jesus and our being gathered to Him.  Don't be shaken or disturbed that the day of the Lord has already come.  That day will not come, unless the gathering comes first and the A/C is revealed.

 

See the problem?  The gathering will happen before the gathering?  

The other nonsensical part of this is the attempt to change what apostasia means.  If someone speaks of apostasy, or say an apostate church, do you distort the meaning to believe that this apostate church has been raptured?

Paul connects the rapture to His coming in the first verse, it is the same thing Jesus told us Himself.

God bless

The day of the Lord does not necessarily mean the end of time. The modern, western church has failed to understand the language of the first century writers and the context of proper covenant thinking. 

The modern church has gone on to assume things that were not part of such language.

We have built a whole doctrine based on presuppositions. 

Having said that, the biggest event in those day was the fact that the old covenant was coming to an end. Paul was not talking about anything else but that.  

19 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

Excerpts from The Second Coming of Christ and the Millennial Kingdom

The Second Coming of Christ in the Old Testament

The trilogy of Psalm 22, 23, and 24 gives a panoramic view of Christ. Psalm 22 speaks of His work as the Good Shepherd dying on the cross for our sins (John 10:11). Psalm 23 speaks of His present care for His own as the Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20), interceding for them in heaven. Psalm 24 describes Christ as the King of Glory, the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4), who will enter the gates of Jerusalem.

 

Another major revelation is given in Psalm 72, revealing Christ’s reign over the whole earth. After describing how He will judge the people, defend the afflicted, and deliver the righteous, the psalm continues:

In his days the righteous will flourish; prosperity will abound till the moon is no more. He will rule from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. The desert tribes will bow before him and his enemies will lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him (Ps. 72:7-11).

Another major passage dealing with Christ in His second coming is found in Isaiah 11, where the righteous reign of Christ and the blessings of the millennial kingdom are revealed.

Daniel 7:13-14 states that the Second Coming marks the termination of the times of the Gentiles and the beginning of the reign of God’s kingdom on earth.

Zechariah 2:10-11 also anticipates the coming of the Lord and His residence in the earth.

“‘Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,’ declares the Lord. ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.’” In that future day Scripture declares that Christ will claim the Holy Land as His own. Zechariah says, “The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem” (Zech. 2:12).

A dramatic description of the second coming of Christ is recorded in Zechariah 14, which describes an attack upon Jerusalem. Zechariah states, “Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south” (Zech. 14:3-4). This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.

The Second Coming of Christ in the New Testament 

About twenty passages deal with the subject of the Second Coming in the New Testament. They serve to emphasize that this is a major doctrine of Scripture (Matt. 19:28; 23:39; 24:3-25:46; Mark 13:24-37; Luke 12:35-48; 17:22-37; 18:8; 21:25-28; Acts 1:10-11; 15:16-18; Rom. 11:25-27; 1 Cor. 11:26; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:3-4; Jude 14-15; Rev. 1:7-8; 2:25-28; 16:15; 19:11-21; 22:20).

Though liberal interpreters attempt to find some fulfillment of the second coming of Christ in present human experience, all conservative interpreters describe the Second Coming as a future major divine event fulfilling the revelation in Revelation 19:11-15. Also, there is general agreement that Christ will come personally and bodily in a return to the earth, which was prophesied in Acts 1:9-10. His return will be similar to His ascension in that He will return bodily, and it will be gradual and visible, with clouds as the angels prophesied when they said, “This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11). Some interpreters have attempted to incorporate the rapture of the church as a part of the Second Coming. A careful study of Revelation 19-20 reveals no textual support for a rapture in that sequence of events. The revelation of Christ at His second coming is painted graphically in Revelation 19:11-16.

In connection with the events following the second coming of Christ, John also saw the resurrection of those who had been martyred in the Great Tribulation during the three-and-a-half years preceding the Second Coming. John writes:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4- 6) .

Characteristics of the Millennial Kingdom

Scripture speaks of kingdoms in various forms, sometimes kingdoms relating to this world and sometimes spiritual kingdoms, where God is recognized as the ruler. The millennial kingdom is primarily a political kingdom, though it has spiritual aspects and Jesus Christ is the King of Kings, who has come to reign over the earth. Because it is an earthly kingdom with Christ on the throne, it obviously cannot be fulfilled in the present age when Christ is in heaven, though Christians form a part of the kingdom of God in a spiritual sense.

Jesus Christ will serve as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in the millennial kingdom and will fulfill the promises that He will sit on David’s throne over the house of Israel (2 Sam. 7:16; Ps. 89:20-37; Isa. 11:1-16; Jer. 33:19-21). In His relationship to Israel as her king, He was born to rule over her (Luke 1:32-33). The people of Israel rejected Him as their king (Mark 15:12-13; Luke 19:14). In His death it was posted on the cross that He died as a king (Matt. 27:37). It is in keeping with this that when He comes again, He comes as the King who will fulfill prophecies of His ruling over the Davidic kingdom (Rev. 19:16).

In addition to reigning over Israel as the Son of David, Christ is also King of Kings over the entire earth, and this includes, of course, the Gentile world. As Psalm 72:8 states, “He will rule from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.”

The fact that Christ will reign over the entire world is taught by many Scriptures (Isa. 2:1-4; 9:6-7; 11:1-10; 16:5; 24:23; 32:1; 40:1-11; 42:3-4; 52:7-15; 55:4; Dan. 2:44; 7:27; Micah 4:1-8; 5:2-5; Zech. 9:9; 14:16-17). These verses demand a literal kingdom and a literal reign of Christ on earth.

2 Timothy 2:15 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

If you cannot respond to simple statements, you are not fit to have a discussion. I refuse to talk to the wall. You are totally wasting your time writing so much because I don't read it, so unless you touch on what I said before and respond to what I said, this discussion is over. 

10 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Rev 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Does heaven exist for a thousand years only ? It isnt, heaven is eternal, so this one thousand years speak not about heaven but earthly government of Jesus.

 

Your response has nothing to do with the topic at hand because I don’t read in Rev. 20 where it say that Jesus will come down to earth to reign for 1,000 literal years.

3 hours ago, Tampered With said:

Try Reading the Book of Revelation it is the last book in the BIBLE!!!

 

 

Stop ignoring what I'm saying and respond to my posts. I'm not going to waste my time explaining things that you are ignoring completely. DON'T BE SO RUDE!