Faithwilldo

You do not understand judgment. Judgment is a necessary part of our salvation. The verses you use to say that Christ is not going to save all mankind are ONLY talking about judgment. The verses that I use are the ones which teach who will be saved and without exception, they all say "all men" or words to that effect. You believe that judgment is horrible and non-redeeming but scripture teaches the opposite. Judgment is good and necessary for our salvation. Until you can understand that truth, you will never understand who Christ is. Context is not very important when it comes to understanding the truth of God. Here is why: Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Truth is given to us in bits and pieces. Christ does it this way so the knowledge of God cannot be understood by anyone except to whom it is revealed. Also, scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ. A sword does not mean a literal sword. It means the Word of God. Likewise, "fire" does not mean literal fire but represents God's righteous and true judgment. Scripture is written this way so that the knowledge of God remains hidden from all but those chosen to understand it. Christ is not trying to save anyone else at this time. He is ONLY bringing in the First Fruits of His harvest during this present age. The full harvest, like any farmer will tell you, comes at the end of the harvest season. We must have patience to wait on the Lord to do His work. You call me a "wolf" but it is you who believe and teach that Christ is a failed Savior. And instead of death being the penalty of sin, you have switched it to be eternal torment in literal fire. When did the Law change??? The truth that we are told to spread to the world is truly good news for the world but you have turned it into the things of nightmares. It is no wonder that most of the world wants no part of it. Obviously, you cannot see the truth that I see so there is no since to continuing this discussion. I truly wish I could help you but the Lord simply has not prepared your heart to receive my labor of love. Joe

How can you believe in the doctrine of hell but not the doctrine of free will? I have never heard of anyone who believes as you do. So you believe that Christ is going to send people to "hell" solely because He didn't do His work within them??? Was Christ lazy or was He just forgetful? If mankind doesn't have a free will (which is true), why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save them? Did Christ lie in these verses below? John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Before you say that the Father didn't give everything to Christ and that is why some are not saved, look at this verse: John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. Why do you not believe these verses? Christ is the Savior of the world and it is His work to save us. From your perspective, how can you believe in a god who fails to do what He says He will do? Can't you see that the Christ you are following is not the Christ taught in scripture? The Christ of scripture is loving, kind, gentle, forgiving and merciful. His judgment is for our betterment and it teaches us righteousness. He would never harm us as the doctrine of hell describes. Why do you believe Christ will not save all His children in light of the fact that He has the power to do so? Why does He save a few but ignores most of mankind? And those whom He ignores, He also punishes in fire for all eternity??? It makes no sense. Why would a good and loving God do such a thing? Where is His good and loving purpose in your doctrine of hell? Joe

You said: No, that is not what I believe. Have you ever heard of context? What you state about "context" does not make sense. The verse still means all mankind - especially if the word "will" is changed to "desire". But as I pointed out before, God gets everything He desires because He is God. You said: God is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe. The word "especially" is a word denoting degree; in other words, those who believe are saved to a greater degree than those who do not. How are men "saved" who do not believe? They are "saved" with deliverances from physical death, from sicknesses, from famines, from natural disasters, etc.; but they are not saved from sin and hell. Those who believe in this age are chosen by God. They are the Elect, the First Fruits of God's harvest. Those who do not believe now, will believe later (Phil 2:10-11) at the end of the age. All will still be saved. Those not chosen to be saved now will not receive the blessing of being an heir BUT they will still be saved. This group will be 99%+++ of all mankind. 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Fire represents the judgment of Christ. From judgment, mankind is saved. You said: Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - some willingly and some unwillingly. The goats will do it with gnashing of teeth and hatred in their hearts, the sheep will do it in faith, with love in their hearts. You have twisted the verses to mean something that they are not saying. How could it give "glory" to the Father to force people to confess that Jesus is Lord??? I heard John Hagee say that if God needs to, He will break the legs of those "unwilling" to bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. How sick is that! Also, scripture says that no man can say Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit. A forced confession is no confession at all. And you believe that false confession will give glory to the Father??? 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. It seems that there is no way that Christ can write scripture in such a way as to cause you to believe that He is actually the Savior of the world. Salvation is 100% the work of Christ. You have added the false doctrine of Free Will that causes mankind to contribute to Christ's work. Otherwise, there is no way for you to justify the existence of your fabled hell. After all, if salvation is really 100% the work of Christ, how can Christ send anyone to hell for His failure to save them??? Your doctrine of Free Will causes those who believe it to be self-righteous. Their "wisdom" or "intelligence" is why they are saved. And as for those not saved, well, they were just to evil or to stupid to be saved. You have made the confession of faith a "work". That is the sin that leads to death. According to scripture, here is the cause of our confession of faith. Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Our confession of faith is the work of Christ. It is not our work. Joe

One more try: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Here is what you believe these verses are saying: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will NOT have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for a few, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of a few men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus a few knees should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that a few tongues should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of a few things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. How would Christ have to construct a sentence for you to believe that He is going to save all men? If Christ is not going to save everyone, then why do the verses in their original form say that He is? Do you believe that Christ took take away the sins of the world as John the Baptist said? John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. If the sins of the world are taken away, how can you believe that only some of the world is going to be saved? 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Since the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world, how can He fail since God never fails? Don't you see that you are bringing God down to the level of a man? Here is the power of God: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. Joe

If you won't accept the verses I posted as God's truth, then there is nothing more I can do. Joe

I have been teaching this truth of scripture for more than 12 years. The verses that I have posted confirm my comments. There are no contradictions with other scripture. As for your comments to Marathoner, they are completely misplaced. The Old Man represents our carnal nature and it is he who commits the sin in our life. Because it is the Old Man who sins, he must be destroyed (the penalty of sin is death). The Old Man will travel the wide gate that leads to destruction. As his destruction from Christ's judgment (fire) begins, the New Man (Christ in us) is born and will never sin. These events happen when a fallen away "Called and Chosen" believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The two spiritual natures co-exist for a time and that is why we still have sin in our life. The sinful Old Man is being destroyed through judgment as the New Man grows and matures. John the Baptist is a "type" of our Old Man and he said this: John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. As the New Man increases (grows and matures) within us, our Old Man slowly dies (crucified with Christ). When we sin, it is the Old Man who commits the sin. The New Man (born of God) is without sin because Christ is without sin. Once Christ's judgment of the Old Man is complete, all that will be left is the New Man who does not sin. That is why John the Baptist said "He must increase, but I must decrease". And that is why John 3:9 says that the believer "cannot keep on sinning". He will continue sinning for a time but eventually through Christ's judgment, the Old Man will be destroyed. All that will be left is our new nature (New Man) and we will sin no more. Christ will have cleaned the inside of our cup: Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. The pathway that leads to destruction and the pathway that leads to life is how Christ cleans the inside of our cup. It requires the Early and Latter Rains as James said. It requires the destruction of our carnal nature and the birth of Christ's nature within us. It will happen to every person who has ever lived. The Elect who are the first fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind are FIRST to be saved. All others will travel the two pathways in the final age. Then these verses will be proven to be true: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. The verses are very clear. Why won't you accept them? Christ is ready to give you the necessary gifts (faith, love for the truth, etc.) to believe Him if you would only ask: Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Joe

Your comments are very uplifting. Thank you for sharing them. Joe

I really like your comments above. I needed a teacher many years ago but now, like you, I have no need for a teacher. I learn directly from Christ and I too believe His words. It is by His work that I can see and believe. I am worthy of only death. But in Him and because of His love, I have life. Thank you for your testimony. Joe

We are not born of God until we receive the Early and Latter rain. The Early rain is not enough for anyone to produce spiritual fruit. We must have the Early AND Latter Rain. Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language. Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age. Christ even said: Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! “Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit. At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit. After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth. The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit. James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit. Here is another example: John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? The woman represents mankind and the stones represent the Law of Moses. Christ writes upon the ground the first time (Early Rain) to symbolize when He first writes His law in our hearts. At that time, the Pharisees do not drop the stones because we are still under law. Then Christ writes on the ground a second time (Latter Rain) and the Pharisees drop their stones. The Law can no longer accuse us. Christ must come to us two times before we are saved. That is why the second coming of Christ is so important. It is not a visible return to earth at some future date. It is a spiritual return to each of God's Elect. It comes without observation and it comes "within" us. Paul's conversion experience is our example that we must follow. It also teaches the Early and Latter rain. 1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Paul receives the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and then three days later in Damascus, he receives the Latter Rain. In Mark chapter 8:21-25, it too teaches the Early and Latter rain. Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Upon receiving the early rain, the blind man only sees "men walking as trees". This represents beliefs that come from our carnality. Upon receiving the Latter rain, the blind man then sees every man clearly. That represents truth that comes from God. We must have the Early and Latter rain before we are saved. Many are called (Early Rain) but few are chosen (Early AND Latter Rain). The parable of the Ten Virgins teaches this concept again along with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. Joe

Thank you for your comments. Joe

God's Word is not nonsense nor does God change His mind. He created the pathway that leads to Him. It is not the pathway that I would choose but I accept it because God says it is "good". We all must follow this pathway. Christ is the Savior and He does all the work - even our confession of faith is caused by God. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" for it to happen. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Joe

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Belief is not just believing "in" Christ but believing what He says in scripture. Also, Satan masquerades as Christ. Without spiritual understanding, we will follow the ways of Satan instead of Christ because Satan's ways are more pleasing to our carnal nature. That is what happens shortly after we first come to Christ (the Early Rain) since Christ leaves us spiritually blind after His first coming. It is not until Christ comes to us a second time (Latter Rain) that Christ heals our vision. Only then can we come out from Satan's deceptions. That is when the great city (Sodom, earthly Jerusalem) is destroyed from within us. Here are some verses that teach this truth: Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand? In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses. Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man. In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. These actions by Christ spiritually represent the time when an unbeliever is "called" out from the world and into the Church. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down and they symbolize the carnal aspect of the blind man’s healing. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for man's truth that comes from the earth (our carnal nature). It is not Christ's truth which only comes from heaven. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. It is the time of the "early rain" or Paul's Damascus road experience. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind: 2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Chosen believer. He was first Called Out from the world and then he was Chosen to be “born again” as a First Fruit of Christ’s Harvest. Joe

There is no contradiction. A believer falls away from Grace through Faith because it is God's will for it to happen. God causes it. We have no say in the matter. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Below is a more about how God does this: Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. The "unclean spirits" represent beliefs/ideas that come from Satan. When we fall away, 7 spirits (complete deception) enter into us because they find our house free of the truth of God. When a person first comes to Christ (Early Rain/Paul's Damascus Road experience/blind man in Mark 8:21-25), they are left spiritually blind and cannot know the truth of Christ. And just like Paul on the Damascus Road, they must be lead by the hand. However, those who lead the new believer by the hand are just as spiritually blind. It truly is the blind leading the blind. This is when the new believer "falls away" because the spiritually blind leaders teach the lies they learned from Satan, who is masquerading as Christ. The parable of the woman making bread (Mat 13:33), the parable of the 10 Virgins and the parable of the Wheat and the Tares also teach this portion of the pathway we must follow. Matthew chapter 24, Luke chapter 21 and Revelation chapters 11 & 17 expand on this teaching, too. Also, the 7 headed beast in Revelation (which represents mankind) shows that one of its heads was healed from a deadly head wound. This wound was caused by Christ at His first coming to a called out believer. However, Satan causes them to "fall away" back to works and they spiritually die. The head wound is healed and the Old Man continues to live. That is why the head with the deadly wound is shown on the beast of mankind. It is one aspect of carnal mankind. Joe

You said: Gods word makes that clear. God's Word does not make it clear because Christ hides His truth from all but whom He chooses to reveal it. In fact, scripture is written in another language (spiritual language) that utilizes Hebrew and Greek. The Word of God is spiritual and not literal. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end. The truth of God must be searched for as if looking for hidden treasure. One cannot find the truth of God in the doctrinal statements of any church. Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Also, Christ only taught in parables for the purpose of keeping His truth hidden: Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Also, scripture is written in fragments, a little here and a little there. It is written that way so that when we first come to Christ, we will "fall away" from the truth and spiritually die. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. If Christ wanted to save all mankind now, the truth of scripture would not be written so that the carnal mind of man cannot understand it. Christ did it this way so that He can reveal His truth only to those chosen from the foundation of the world - the Elect/First Fruits. God established a pathway to salvation that we all must follow. This pathway is deeply hidden in scripture. Here is the pathway: When an unbeliever is first called by Christ (the Early Rain) to come out from the world, he is not given the ability to understand scripture. He is left carnally minded and will reject the truth of God. Then Satan, who masquerades as Christ, will come to this person and deceive them. From this deception, they will fall away from the truth and spiritually die. They will remain in that spiritual condition until Christ comes to them a second time (the second coming of Christ/Day of the Lord/Latter Rain). But Christ will only come to them a second time if they are one of His chosen Elect. If they are not chosen, they will not be saved in this age. They simply were not blessed to be one of God's First Fruits of His harvest. Their salvation will come at the end of the final age (the time of the full harvest of mankind/Feast of Tabernacles). You said: Besides when you die in your sins that's it. There is no scripture that says that Christ's work of saving mankind ends when a person dies. Christ is not limited by death because He defeated death. Christ will resurrect all the lost to judgment for the good and righteous purpose of saving them. As you said in your post, Christ is not willing that any should perish. If God is not willing for any to perish, then who can stop Him? Certainly not mankind. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? God is love and love never fails. When the end of the final age comes, this statement will be "testifed" to be true: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Joe

Yes, that is true - no one can snatch us out of His hand IF we are chosen to be saved as a First Fruit of God's harvest of mankind. Here is a deeply hidden truth - Paul is the pattern whereby all will be saved and that is why his conversion is very detailed in scripture. 1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. If you study Paul's conversion and can understand the pattern that He laid down, you will find that when we first accept Christ (the Early Rain of the Spirit), we are left spiritually blind. At that point (like Paul typed for us), we must be lead by the hand. Because of our inability to understand the truth, Satan (masquerading as Christ) easily deceives us and we "fall away" to works. That is when Satan kills us. If we are chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world, then He will come a second time (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) to us and give us all the gifts necessary for us to be saved. Those gifts include the Holy Spirit, faith, a love for the truth and spiritual vision. This event happened to Paul after 3 days in Damascus. It is only then that we are justified by faith and sanctified by the truth. At that point, Christ will not let us slip from His hand. Looking back, we can then see just how deceived by Satan we were. Earthly Jerusalem (religion, works) is destroyed from within us in one hour (Rev 18:10). Christ is only working to save His Elect in this present age. He is not trying to save anyone else now. Those who remain lost after they physically die will be saved in the final age when the full harvest of mankind is brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. Joe

There is only one sin that leads to spiritual death after a believer is saved. It happens when a believer "falls away" from Grace through Faith (the New Covenant) and back to works (the Old Covenant). All others sins that we committee are forgiven and our salvation remains intact. The most common sin that leads to death is the sin of taking credit for making the "right choice" to accept Christ. This "choice" becomes a work and the believer "falls away". The Doctrine of Free Will is the cause of this deadly sin and is a lie from Satan. Christ is our the Savior and He does 100% of the work. When a believer takes credit for any part of His work, then the believer "falls away" and spiritually dies. When this event happens, a believer cannot be renewed by repentance but must wait on the Lord to come a second time. Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. A return to works is how Satan "kills the saints". Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Also, "backslidden" is not a term used by scripture. Joe

Thank you for sharing. Joe

Yes, evil is a result of the way God created mankind and even Satan. He made us the way we are for a purpose. Mankind must know "good and evil" to be like God. He made us evil and will later make us all good. Joe

How can you ask such a question??? I have stated my understanding in detail many times. God has created a pathway that leads us to salvation. We cannot deviate from it nor can we "choose" not to travel that pathway. The only "deadline" for salvation is for the Elect (the First Fruits). If one has been chosen by Christ to be saved now, then they will be saved now. And as I have repeatedly said, our salvation is the work of Christ. He will see to it that all the necessary work is done within each chosen believer before they die. No one else has a "chance" for salvation now because they cannot save themselves. We must be changed from within and mankind has no power to change themselves. We won't even "seek" out God to do it for us. Rom 3: 10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Our salvation comes only from the work of Christ and if He does not do His work within someone, then they will not be saved at this time. Joe

Yes, God causes all things to happen. He leaves nothing to chance, especially our salvation. He created and uses both good and evil to accomplish His will on earth by making them (good and evil) work together for good. We live not only by "bread" but by every word that God speaks. I have already posted the verses that teach this truth and you previously rejected them. Joe

You said: God desires all men to be saved, does that mean all men are saved? First of all, the verse I quoted is correctly translated as "will have" but it doesn't make any difference if you believe it should read "desires to have" because God ALWAYS achieves all His desires. Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Darby) 2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee. Our understanding of God and how He works is one of the fundamental differences between what you believe and I believe. Scripture says that God ALWAYS accomplishes His desires. You see God in a different light than me. As with mankind, we desire a lot of things but most of them fall by the wayside because we have no ability to accomplish those desires. But as I have said many times, God is not like mankind - He always accomplishes what he desires. Scripture does not leave any room for God to fail at anything that He says He will do. Why do you not accept these verses? Is it because you see people dying without salvation so you assume that they can never be saved? Just because God will judge them does not mean that He will not save them. You are making an assumption that has no scriptural support. If you can't get past the translations of "aion" and "aionios" then I suggest that you read Ray Smith's open letter to John Hagee concerning one of Mr. Hagee's sermons. It's at bible-truths.com. You said: What you believe is called universalism, you should check it out and pray to the Lord to disclose you the truth. It is spread by the Word of Faith teachers. The problem with universalism is that it focus only on 1 aspect of God, all loving. But tends to forget that God is just and holy. It uses scripture out of context. I do not believe in universalism. It is full of many non-scriptural beliefs. That denomination does not teach what I teach. You said: Deep inside, I too wished that everybody was saved. Then why don't you believe that God will accomplish mankind's salvation when He wants the same thing? Your understanding of God is not correct. I suggest that you pray for more faith to believe what He says in scripture. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? God always accomplishes what He wants. It makes no difference if man wants something different. He is spirit and His work happens between our ears. He will give us the necessary spiritual "gifts" that will make our "will" match His "will". That is what the Holy Spirit does. We are all born carnally minded and the carnal mind hates God. Unless God acts within us, nothing about our hatred for Him would ever change. Paul changed in an instant on the Damascus Road. Christ came to him "suddenly" from out of the blue and changed Paul from within. That is the only way a person can accept Christ and that is how God can "choose" His Elect apart from anyone else. Unless God acts, no one would seek Him out and desire to know Him. If anyone believes that they have a "love for the truth", then it came from God. We are not born with that love. And that is why no man can boast about their salvation. Christ does His work within us to change our understandings & beliefs. That is how He cleans the inside of our cup. You said: The bible says, when we die, our body will go back to earth. Our souls will go back to God. And one day, we all will be resurrected in our new immortal bodies. That is when the judgement will come. That is when Jesus will look into the book of life. BODY + SPIRIT = A LIVING SOUL When we die, our body returns to dust and our "spirit" returns to God. Without a body, we are dead. Upon our resurrection from death, we receive a new body with our spirit inside it. At that point, we are a living soul again. Judgment for the Elect happens now in this life time. Judgment teaches us righteousness. Why do you believe that God has two kinds of judgment - one for the Elect and one for the lost in the final age? This verse says there is only one judgment for the inhabitants of the world. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. You said: I understand that you believe that after this, unbelievers will still have a chance. Unbelievers and everyone else does not have a chance. It is the work of Christ that saves us. There is no "chance" to it. Our salvation happens solely because it is God's will for it to happen. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. These verses above contradict what you believe. You said: God is willing to forgive everybody. But His will is that only the ones are saved who are trusting in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. God giving us free will, even when we use it to deny Him, to choose to live without Him, that is love. Everyone will deny Him unless He does His work within us. Your beliefs take credit for His work and leads one to be self-righteousness. Joe

Thank you for sharing with me. I take this to mean that for the most part, you agree with what I have been posting??? Joe

Christ came to me a second time on Oct 8th, 2005. I was 44 years old and had been in the "church" for most of my life. At that time, He healed my blindness and gave me a large amount of faith. Everything I thought I knew as truth changed. Before this happened, I was an end-time prophecy teacher in my church and was very involved. I was not much different than anyone else at my church. But after my blindness was healed, it took only a few short weeks for me to decide to leave the church for good. I learned quickly that light and darkness do not mix. You would be very surprised at what the Lord has shown me in scripture since that time. I have met a few people on-line who have had the same experience and it lead them to the same beliefs as mine. You should go to my profile and read my testimony from that time. Here is why I never look back: Matt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. The "treasure" the Lord showed me changed my life. Quickly my love for Him soared beyond what I ever thought was possible. Christ truly is the Savior of the world and He has a plan to accomplish it. Only a few know it as He intends because of what this verse says: Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. When we first come to Christ, we remain spiritually blind and must be lead by the hand - just as Christ lead the blind man by the hand when He took him out of the city in Mark 8:21-25 and just as Paul was lead by the hand on the Damascus Road. These described events represent the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is not enough to save us because we are left spiritually blind and only have an earnest amount of the Spirit (a down-payment). Because of our blindness, Satan comes to us and deceives us into believing that he is Christ and that his ways are truth. It is not just some beliefs but ALL beliefs we have that are wrong. The WHOLE LOAF IS LEAVENED and as we eat it, it spiritually kills us. This is how Satan "kills the saints". Under Satan's influence, we remain in this spiritually darkened place until and if Christ comes to us a second time. Most believers will die in their sins because they simply were not chosen for Christ to come to them a second time. This is "typed" for us by when the Nation of Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. Only Joshua and Caleb, who are a type of the Elect, live to cross the Jordan River into the Promised Land. When they cross over, that event symbolizes when Christ comes to a fallen away believer a second time. That is when a person is converted and saved. This is the "pattern" we all must follow. Paul laid it out for us when he was converted. We have no "free will" ability to deviate from it. We must travel the path that leads to destruction before we can be saved. The destruction of the "man of sin" whom we have become occurs when Christ comes to us a second time. Paul describes it this way: 2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. In verse 1, Paul writes about the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. This appearance is the same as the “Day of Christ” (verse 2). This event is the second coming of Christ to a "called" and "fallen away" believer. As with the Early Rain, the Latter Rain of the Spirit is not a visible appearance to this earth but rather a spiritual event within the individual believer. At this time, Christ gathers us to Him to dwell with Him in the heavens. The Old Man begins to decrease and the New Man is born and begins to increase. We still must "defeat the giants in the Land" and grow & mature to produce spiritual fruit before we are ready to be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul says that the Day of the Lord cannot happen to a believer “except there come a falling away first and that Man of Sin be revealed”. This “falling away” is a return to "works" for salvation and coupled with Satan’s lies and deceptions, a worsened carnal state is produced called the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition. This event is also described in Mat 12:45. If anyone is going to be saved in this present age, they first must be deceived by Satan and become a "man of sin". It is only then that Christ might come a second time to them (if they are chosen). Only the Truth which is Jesus Christ can destroy this Man of Sin whom we have become. 2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: The spiritual terms “spirit of His mouth” & “brightness of His coming” represent Truth which we receive from the Holy Spirit. From this point forward, if the believer remains faithful unto the end , his race will be won and he will be awarded the Crown of Righteousness. He will be included in the First-fruits of the harvest and will have overcome this world (carnality) just as Christ overcame this world. However, it is not by our works that this happens – it is by the work of Christ. We are His workmanship and that is why salvation is guaranteed for all mankind. So before I post on any forum, I understand that what I say will not be accepted by most if not all people there. However, if Christ has made anyone ready to receive His truth, He will heal their blindness and have them accept His truth. I consider myself one of the most blessed persons who has ever lived and I am driven by Christ to share my joy in Him to all who will listen. I am still amazed at how strong Satan's deceptions are to those who are blind. No matter how much light I shine on them, a blind person simply cannot see. The only solution is for Christ to come to them and heal their blindness. Joe

I had a long response written out and ready to post when I accidentally deleted it. Ugh! Rather than try to re-write it, I think it is better just to end this discussion here since it does not seem to be benefiting you anyway. The one take-away I hope you received from our discussion is to understand that God's judgment is not to harm us but to make us pure and righteous. He really does love us all and He will not stop working until we are all saved. It is all His work and He will not fail. 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Joe

Most of God's truth is meant to be hidden in scripture but the issue of "free will" is not one since it is not true: Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby) Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. (Darby) Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Most people believe that since mankind has the ability to make "choices" that it stands to reason that we also have "free will". But that reasoning is unsound. To have a "free will", one must have the ability to make "uncaused" choices. The above verses clearly say that God is the cause of what we say and do. Mankind's "will" is certainly not "free". Also, most of the knowledge of God is purposely hidden in scripture and can only be understood and believed AFTER Christ comes to us a second time and heals our blindness. This happens ONLY to the chosen Elect. Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end. Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Only the Elect have been given "ears to hear" and that only occurs when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. As the verses above state, God hides His truth from everyone except to those whom He has chosen to reveal it. The Book of Revelation is the "unveiling of Jesus Christ". In other words, Christ is hidden and must be "unveiled" if anyone is to see the true. Joe