Amigo42

Again, I love the Bible, but what does it really mean here by "Moses wrote"? When was this written, and what was their intention? Let me give an example. Here in America when we say the "President's new executive order says...etc." Are we saying the President himself wrote and formulated the order or did he just agree to it and sign in? Of course, he didn't write it. He provided general outlines, but various teams in the government and executive branch actually formulated it.

Hi Jayne, thank you. I most certainly am a Christian and follower of Jesus. I've been a born again Christian almost 30 years now. I am most certainly not trying to discredit the Bible. I love the Bible myself and a few years ago I may have responded like you. I'm actually trying to strengthen Christians when and if their faith comes under attack. It's good to be realistic and have a common sense perspective instead of too dogmatic of an approach. If people are too dogmatic in their beliefs, it can be hard to know how to respond when some new conflict comes their way. So, I just like to encourage people to see beyond the details and focus on the broad scope of the message of Jesus and of the Bible. So many Christians have fallen away because they couldn't handle basic dissonance within themselves and their beliefs. Most of you may not have that problem, but some young people who've gone through higher education and even Bible school have nearly lost their faith because they came in with too strict of an approach. Anyway, I desire for people to serve God and be strong in what they believe, but also have a common sense approach to the Bible. God gave us all common sense, and if something doesn't make sense, it's probably because it incorrect theologically.

I'd say through allowing the Spirit of God to renew their souls and minds in Him. However, I also believe that God looks on the heart though man looks on the outward appearance. I don't know if I'd say that people are saved though yes they are, but I like to think of it as going home. Earth is not our home for any of us. So, we will all go home at some point. Have you ever heard of Lorna Byrne? She's an Irish Catholic woman who claims to have seen and continues to see and speak to angels daily just like she see people. Some of her claimed conversations with the angels and God are quite interesting, though I wouldn't put too much stock in any humans. Nonetheless, at least some of what she says seems to be true in terms of what I've learned and read from other "witnesses." Again, don't put too much trust in any person, but it is interesting to hear others' perspectives.

Well, as a Christian, I of course believe Jesus is the way. However, there are various schools of thought on the meaning of the death of Jesus on the cross. Some people believe that Jesus died so that we can inherit salvation. Others believe that Jesus died as a symbol of God's love and that he came to redirect or steer humanity back in the right direction. If Jesus had not died, his message may not have been as powerful through history. To me either way you slice it, he still died for our sins because he came to a world of sin and had no sin. So, he still died for our sins regardless of perspective.

Indeed, I agree. Not a single human is righteous in their own right. However, sometimes people live up to the knowledge that they have and follow that inner voice that God put in them.

Oh I agree. However, I think in environments that are so closed up as this that God's spirit himself directly intervenes in people's souls whether they even realize it or not. In the end, no one can truly escape God because we are all a part of him since we are his creation.

Hi no problem at all. Thank you for asking. Well, when Jesus came, the entire message seemed to change when compared to the OT. Jesus showed that the true face of God is love and he desires that no one will perish. Jesus said you could hang the entire commandments and the Law on Love because that what they all sum to. The interesting thing is if you read or listen to people's NDE testimonies on youtube or elsewhere that's exactly what they say. Even people who had no faith at all were changed after their NDEs when they experienced the being of pure love. These people have in some cases had veridical NDEs where it was confirmed that they saw events and places in totally different locations when they were sitting on a hospital bed being operated on. These people's souls temporarily left their bodies, and they were able to experience the true nature of God which is love.

The irony is that at the time of that writing Paul didn't consider his own writings to be "scripture." He just considered them to be letters to the followers of Jesus that he had led to Christ. It wasn't till later generations that his letters were considered scripture, but in reality he was just a person like you or I who was inspired by God, though at the time he would not have considered his words to be infallible.

Most of here including myself are not experts in Biblical studies, but in the academic world the view of even Christian academics varies from the theological perspective. For example, in some Biblical circles of academic study, it is believe that the the Books of Moses were actually a compilation of material from various priestly and scribal sources. I believe the sources are J, P,H, and E as the generic names. I'm not sure. However, if you talk to a well informed atheist they can point out what appear to be two different stories in the Bible which is not really a big deal to me, but for some they might be surprised. Again, I don't think it's a big deal even if true. Did Moses literally pen the five books of the OT? I highly doubt it though his priestly descendants may have. Also, some of what we might consider scripture may have been intended as just moral lessons. Later generations interpreted them to be literal. The Bible is wonderful, but it's also not a singular book. It's a collection of stories, prophecies, laws, and etc. written by different authors over hundreds of years and yet it resonates with a singular voice. That is the work of God no doubt. However, I think people can get tripped up if they try to make it too literal from a fundamentalist understanding. Former Christians like Bart Ehrman took it to a completely different level as he got tripped up over a very basic writing. He saw in the book of Mark where Abiathar the priest was attributed to something different than the Old Testament said. I think the OT mentions his son did something, whereas the NT says it was him. I don't remember the details, but the point is Mr. Ehrman let himself get tripped up by something that simple because he put all his faith in a book instead realizing that only God is perfect. Anyway, just my five cents. I don't know it all. Only God does.

There might be some Bibles in North Korea, but God is not going to judge someone who never learned of him in the same way that he would for someone say in America who has access to Bibles freely.

I'm just being "angels advocate" here (possibly literally), but where does the Bible say it was written and authored by God himself? Don't get wrong, I love the Bible and have grown up with it, but I don't believe everything written is literal or was even meant to be literal. Case in point. The story of Jonah. How do we know this story is literal at least in terms of all aspects? Maybe the writers simply meant for the story to be a symbolic testament to God's love and mercy. How do we know it was meant to be understood as completely literal. The Ninevites apparently worshipped a fish god as one of their primary deities, so maybe the story about being swallowed up by a fish was a symbolic representation.

So, here's the point that I'm making, and this kind of highlights that. Sometimes tradition and religion can get in the way of common sense. God gave all humans common sense, and to me my common sense tells me that a God of love is fair and just and wouldn't punish people for something they never even had the chance to learn simply because of where they happened to be born. "You were born in North Korea or another communist country? Well, too bad and too sad for you. The gates of pearls are closed for you. keep walking down that fiery tunnel." Sorry for the satire, but this just doesn't sound like the God that Jesus described.

You make some great points, and indeed God has done and continues to do some miraculous things in the world. Muslims in the middle east are seeing visions and Jesus of Christ on an amazing level. You're also right that this does appear to be universalism. I suppose my current understanding is similar to universalism although being a conservative Christian I just don't like that word. lol. However, I came to a newer level of spiritual understanding after weeks of fasting for more knowledge from God. After that higher level knowledge just seem to pour in, though, as you've admitted, yourself, I also don't have all the answers. I think we'll never know it all on this plane, but on that day when our souls leave our bodies, I think that we'll be amazed at how much we got wrong. We made God more judgmental and authoritarian than he really is. Life here is an experience like a school to gain higher knowledge. However, this earth is just a blip on the radar of eternity. The Bible says that man judges on the outward appearance but God judges the heart.

Hmm. How can someone be punished for something they didn't know and didn't even realize? Think beyond. What if Jesus died for all souls to be saved regardless of whether they even realize or not. God's ways are also reflected in nature. In nature, God shines down the warmth of the sun on all people regardless of whether they believe in a Creator who made the sun. It doesn't matter. He still shines on them. Food for thought.

Religions around the world think that theirs is the true and right one including ours. Some think that people of other faiths will not see heaven. Even within the Christian religion some groups think that other groups must follow their specific way to make it to heaven. So, what really is the truth? The truth might surprise us and may not jive with what we have learned. From a common sense perspective, God IS the creator of ALL people. God loves all people. Jesus's central message is that God is love. I personally believe that God looks down upon ALL of his creation with compassion, kindness, and love. He looks upon us with pity because he sees all of the unnecessary divisions and misconceptions. What if religion in general is just a tool to help us connect to God regardless of religion. A hindu truly believes in multiple gods, but regardless does the one True God hear their cries though they don't know him. Some people have no faith at all, but they may be more virtuous than the most ardent believer. So, how does God judge them? What if all righteous souls return to heaven and to God who made them? What if our physical bodies are akin to avatars which are here to experience this earthly existence. Our true home is with God not this world. Let's look at a few common sense perspectives. Sometimes tradition and religion can overwhelm the God-given common sense that he gave to all of us. 1.All humans are born disadvantaged and partially without guidance and blinded. Why is that? It is akin to being in a football game and already being down two touchdowns before you hit the field. That's how disadvantaged we are from birth. If you're fortunate to be born in a Christian country, you can learn about the love of Christ. What if you're not? Is one automatically sentenced to eternal damnation because they happened to be born in a hindu or muslim family? Does that make sense? How about people who grew up in jungles and have never even seen a missionary much less even heard of Christianity or any other religion for that matter? 2.Humans are innate born into a sinful world which tempts them toward sin. Are they to be punished for being born on earth although all humans have an innate knowledge of right and wrong. 3.God doesn't directly communicate with anyone in most cases. How then can people be punished when they have disbelief and doubt. Essentially, this world is a test case and an experiment of sorts where God does speak to us but in subtle ways. He speaks daily. Don't get me wrong, but the ways are subtle and can be easily missed as coincidences or regular daily life circumstances. 4.People who have had near death experiences (NDEs) all come back with a higher belief in the supernatural, and they all say that the Creator is love. He is love to the extent that they cannot even compare it to love on this earth. They all describe a God of love that matches the God that Jesus described. Food for thought. What do you all think?

Good question. The Bible doesn't really say definitively either way. However, if you look at anthropology, there are no records of human civilization beyond 5-7 thousand years ago.

Are you sure that's clear? Jeremiah 17:27 states "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. However, the gates of Jerusalem are no longer "literally" burning. Some people may since that the gates are symbolic still burning due to the constant conflict in the Holy Land, but this verse is speaking of literal fire that was in fact eventually quenched. Hence, the dangers of strictly literal interpretations of the Bible.

I agree with you in general especially the last paragraph. Very well said! It's definitely not my intention to cause anyone to stumble. However, in some cases it's better to hear things from a friendly mouth (Christian brother or sister) than to hear it from the world that desires to tear down truth. In some cases, Christians are not very well served when they are taught to view the Bible too strictly literal because that can also cause people to stumble needlessly when they discover that there are some areas that are not literal that were taken literal for years. Good points that you have made in truth.

I agree. People should get baptized as an example of what Christ did. However, when I say it's not necessary I mean that it is not legalistically required for salvation. If someone is on their deathbed in the middle of Africa in the desert with no water nearby, God is not going to shut the doors of heaven because they couldn't get a water baptism.

I understand completely, and I respect your thoughts. These kinds of ideas wouldn't have sat well with me either a few years ago. I know hearing information that doesn't conform to what we are taught is a challenge. This is coming from a born again Christian who has served God for over 20 years. I started to have some questions pop up in different areas (not questions of doubt). I love God and serve Jesus. However, I fasted for weeks for more insight and understanding from God on some questions I had. I came to some conclusions below which only God knows whether they are true or not. I don't know all the answers as none of us do. So humility is required. It's my belief that God has shown that... 1. All souls return to him after death since he created all souls regardless of what their human state was. This doesn't mean there won't be judgement and justice, but it also doesn't mean eternal suffering in hell 2.People of all faiths and backgrounds will return to heaven or home to God who created them. Jesus died to show all of humanity the way to God not just Christians. 3.All humans have angels assigned to be with them during our stay on earth and to guide us back to God when we live 4.All religions are reaching out to God even if their beliefs are distorted. God sees that all people of faith are trying to connect with the Creator.

Well, there are a lot of areas where Christians have learned traditions which are not necessarily Biblical. The idea of an eternal place of suffering is one such idea. At the time of Jesus, the Jews had been heavily influenced by hellenistic thought including thoughts on the afterlife. Jesus spoke in parables and referred to concepts that the people at the time understood. Gehenna or used symbolically to refer to hell was a trash dump outside Jerusalem where refuse was burned continuously. It was a foul place that no one wanted to be near. Jesus was not referring to a literal place of suffering for humans. God is love and no loving God would punish his creation with endless torments for a short lifetime of sin. There's no amount of sin a person could even commit that could warrant such a beyond extreme punishment. God gave us all common sense, but sometimes religious doctrine and tradition can overwhelm the common sense that we already have. Our common sense tells us that a God of love doesn't punish someone eternally for happening to be born as a human. Being born as a human is like being in a football game where you're already down two touchdowns before you even hit the field. That's part of the challenge of living this life in this frail human form that is disadvantaged from the onset. God is just though and has pity on our human form.

It's a unique perspective that has some implications about the true purpose of our lives here. For example, if earth is just a temporary pit stop in the path of eternity, then where else have we lived during our soul's existence. Maybe some of us were living in other perfect worlds for millenia, and maybe some of us are newly created souls. It's my understanding that earth is the toughest place to live in the universes, so souls that are like the green berets of spiritual beings choose to come here for the challenge. Again, all of this is just speculation. None of us knows all the answers that are beyond the veil. If you've ever studied near death experiences, there are some very interesting case studies. People report seeing Jesus and angels during the short time their souls depart from their bodies. Some of them also report having a temporary state of being all-knowing not in the way God is but in a way because we are part of God. After returning back to their bodies, the human shell simply cannot retain such knowledge, and some only retain a small portion of it.

True enough.

Right. Those are my thoughts exactly. If that is the case, then I think it is done intentionally. If we had all the knowledge and secrets of the universe when we come here, then that's akin to cheating on the exam when everyone else has to learn by experience. I think that's the point. We're here to learn to love God and our fellow human here because this may be the only world where there is a clear contrast of what is not love. I think that's the point of life.

That's a good reference. Even Jeremiah 1:5 states. “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” What does it mean that he knew us before we were born? How long did he know us? For thousands for years, for a few years. Only God knows.