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He descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST... This all happens at his coming...the resurrection happens at the last trumpet, on the last day...this is the harvest of the wheat and the tares, this is the end of the age...not sometime before the end of the age... Job said the dead will not rise or awake from their sleep until the heavens be no more...the heavens are rolled back like a scroll at the sixth seal...this is showing there is no resurrection of anyone before the heavens depart, but to zero in on the exact time it will take place at the 7th trumpet...which of course is immediately after the tribulation...BUT IN NO CASE WHATSOEVER BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET SOUNDS!!!!

Absolutely false...the seventh trumpet sounded when they went up and this is the time when all the saints are changed...we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.. THE DEAD ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THIS MORTAL SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY...WHEN? AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL ARE CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES...THE DEAD IN CHRIST...I.E. THE TWO WITNESESS AND ALL THE OTHER SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE... BEHOLD THE LORD COMETH AND ALL HIS SAINTS WITH HIM...ALL THE SAINTS ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM...THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...HOW DID SHE GET UP THERE? THE DEAD IN CHRIST ROSE FIRST AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...THEN ALL THE SAINTS DESCEND DOWN TO REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST... John heard a great voice of a multitude of people IN HEAVEN...this is when all the saints have just arrived...on the last day...on the day Jesus comes, all the dead in Christ will rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven...this is the voice of all the people in heaven...they are getting ready to come back with Jesus on white horses and to fight at Armageddon... Rev. 19: 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia, Salvation and glory and honor and power unto the Lord our God...(THESE ARE SAINTS!!!) They don't stay up there forever...they come down to the earth with Jesus because they will reign as kings and priests ON THE EARTH..AND RULE OVER THE NATIONS... Yes, when we die our spirits return to God who gave them...just as it happened with the two witnesses...they died and their spirit went back to God who gave it...HOWEVER...THEIR BODIES WERE STILL RESURRECTED AND WENT UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD.. They will shortly return that same day with Jesus to reign on the earth will all the other saints...they will be childrend of the resurrection and be like the angels and never die again... Yes, of course!!! This is the meaning of the being caught up to meet the Lord in the air...the dead rise first...they go up to heaven just like the two witnesses...then they return and the living meet them in the clouds...of course...THEY ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN...THAT IS HOW ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE HEAVEN GOT UP THERE...THEY WERE CAUGHT UP, THEY ASCENDED...YES THEY ARE GETTING READY FOR THE MARRIAGE!!! YES AMEN AND AMEN!!! OF COURSE!!! They all descend down from heaven and reign with Christ for a thousand years...HALLELUJAH!!!

This is the problem again...the translators ADDED the word 'ones' into the text which automatically changes the word 'Hagios' into an adjective, which means the word 'hagios' is now DESCRIBING these thousands of 'ones' as being holy, rather than IDENTIFYING them as being saints, and in doing so the text loses the explicit identity of who it is that is coming with Jesus and puts ambiguity in its place. This is how you arrive at your statement... Holy IS NOT THE MODIFIER...THE WORD 'HAGIOS' IS DESCRIBING SAINTS...INSTEAD OF SAYING 'HAGIOS' IN GREEK, YOU WOULD SAY 'SAINTS' IN ENGLISH IN THIS SETTING JUST LIKE IT DOES IN ALL OTHER SETTINGS WHEN THERE IS NO NOUN TO MODIFY. Even in when you quote 'myriads' as being the noun, we have to look at how a number becomes a noun rather than a adjective...this is how it is defined: What did it say? It said in order for a number (ten thousands, or myriads) to be an ADJECTIVE it must precede a noun and be used as a modifier... What are the translations saying? 'He comes with 'ten thousands' of his holy ones...' The number, 'Ten thousands' are preceding the noun of 'his holy ones' so what does that make the the number, an adjective or a noun? It makes it an adjective and not a noun... You can see from the Englishman's Concordance below,that in all these scriptures where the number precedes the noun the word 'thousands' or 'myriads' is an ADJECTIVE and NOT A NOUN Englishman's Concordance Luke 12:1 Adj-GMP GRK: ἐπισυναχθεισῶν τῶν μυριάδων τοῦ ὄχλου NAS: circumstances, after so many thousands of people KJV: when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, INT: having been gathered together the myriads of the crowd Acts 19:19 Adj-AMP GRK: εὗρον ἀργυρίου μυριάδας πέντε NAS: of them and found it fifty thousand KJV: [it] fifty thousand [pieces] of silver. INT: found [it] of silver myriads five Acts 21:20 Adj-NMP GRK: ἀδελφέ πόσαι μυριάδες εἰσὶν ἐν NAS: how many thousands there are among KJV: how many thousands of Jews INT: brother how many myriads they are among Hebrews 12:22 Adj-DMP GRK: ἐπουρανίῳ καὶ μυριάσιν ἀγγέλων NAS: Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, KJV: and to an innumerable company of angels, INT: heavenly and to myriads of angels Jude 1:14 Adj-DMP GRK: ἐν ἁγίαις μυριάσιν αὐτοῦ NAS: came with many thousands of His holy ones, KJV: with ten thousands of his INT: amidst holy myriads his Almost all versions have added the word 'ones' into the text NIV See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones BSB - with myriads of His holy ones BLB - with myriads of His holy (ones) *at least BLB put in the word 'ones' in italics to show it was added by the translators.. CEV - coming with thousands and thousands of holy angels *here the translators took it upon themselves to add the word 'angels' into the text where there was no word in the text to translate. So do all the following versions adding either 'ones' or 'angels..' : NASB 1995, NAS, NAS 1977, LSB, Amplified Bible, Christian Standard Bible, Holeman Christian Standard, Aramaic Bible, ERV...ect...ect.. Here is 'A Faithful Version' in Bible Hub - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints *These translators stayed with the Greek text as did the KJV So did the Geneva Bible of 1587 - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints As did the Bishops Bible of 1568 - Beholde, the Lorde shall come with thousandes of saintes, And Coverdale - Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy saints And Tyndale - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes Godbey New Testament - Beholde ye lorde shall come with thousandes of sayntes Mace New Testament - "see! the Lord is coming with ten thousand of his saints, Haweis Translation - saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with myriads of his saints, God brings those that sleep in Jesus with him when he comes, so they are up there or he couldn't bring them back...the saints will reign on the earth, so the great multitude of people John heard in heaven have to get down here to reign with Christ... The two witnesses are caught up into heaven in a cloud...absolutely shown they go up in glorified bodies up into heaven...how are they going to get back down here to reign on the earth? They will come back with Jesus... The bride who is the lambs' wife comes down from heaven...how did she get up there? She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming...this includes all the saints from the beginning to when Christ comes...so all these saints are up there or they couldn't come down, but they must come down to reign on the earth...and they come down with Jesus at the second coming.. Those that are with the Lamb are 1) called, and 2) chosen, and 3) faithful...these are not angels...these are saints...those that sleep in Jesus are not angels, they are saints...when Zech. said he comes and all his saints are with him...it is imperitive to realize if he wanted to say all the angels with him he would have used the word for angels - 'malak' ...instead of the word for saints -'qados' This is not to ignore the plain scriptures that say Jesus will come and 'all the holy angels with him...' of course they are coming with him as well...but one scripture that shows his saints coming with him, and another that shows the angels coming with him does not mean saints and angels are the same thing...

The church is 'not already raised,' as it plainly states ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...NOT PART OF THE BELIEVERS CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMPET, AND ANOTHER PART OF THE BELIEVERS CHANGED AT ANOTHER TIME...NO...THE WHEAT AND THE TARES GROW UP TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST...SOME OF THE WHEAT IS NOT HARVESTED BEFORE THE END AND THEN ANOTHER PART OF THE WHEAT IS HARVEST AT THE END...NO!!! The wheat and the tares are both harvest at the same time...which is the end of THIS AGE...the end of THIS age is at the second coming...then in the MK we go into the NEXT AGE...

The scripture says the dead in Christ rise FIRST, that means they both do not go up at the same time...

The dead and the living are all changed at the Last trump...not before...this includes Daniels people which would mean 'the prophets,' and it would also mean 'the saints' and it would also mean 'those that fear his name, both small and great...' in other words ALL SAINTS, Both Daniels people, those that fear his name, the prophets like Zechariah, Daniel, Abraham, Isaiah...ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED, JUDGED AND REWARDED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET, JUST AS REV. 11:16 STATES...NO ONE WAS JUDGED, RESURRECTED OR REWARDED BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET BECAUSE ALL WERE JUDGED, RESURRECTED AND REWARDED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMP...

The seventh trumpet is WHEN the resurrection of Daniel 12 takes place...it specifically states AT THAT TIME that the man of sin comes to his end and none shall help him is the specific time that those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake... Dan. 11:45 And he (anti christ) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come his end, and none shall help him. He comes to his end AT THE SECOND COMING, when Christ comes and takes the beast and with him the false prophet and casts them into the lake of fire... The time frame is specific...AT THE TIME HE COMES TO HIS END IS WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF BOTH GOOD AND BAD HAPPENS... So when you say that refers to Daniels people and THEY won't be raised until the seventh trumpet, be aware that the seventh trumpet is WHEN THE RESURRECTION IN DANIEL 12;3 takes place...there are not two resurrections at the seventh trumpet...ALL WILL BE CHANGED THEN...the OT saints, the NT saints, the tribulation saints...EVERY SAINT THAT BELONGS TO CHRIST WILL BE RAISED AT THE SECOND COMING...AND THIS RESURRECTION SHOWN IN DANIEL 12;3 IS THE SAME RESURRECTION THAT TAKES PLACE AT THE LAST TRUMP...IT IS THE FULFILLMENT OF 'CHRIST THE FIRST-FRUITS, AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT THIS COMING...' ALL THE SAINTS BELONG TO CHRIST..GOD GAVE ALL THE SAINTS TO CHRIST...THIS MEANS DANIEL, THIS MEANS NOAH, THIS MEANS PETER, THIS MEANS PAUL AND YOU AND ME...THERE ARE NO SAINTS THAT DO NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.....

The last trump is the 7th trumpet that sounds when Jesus comes and the dead are raised and judged and he sets up his kingdom and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...This is the last trumpet of the sequence of seven and no one was resurrected before this...This is when Paul said we shall ALL be changed..at the last trumpet...Because ALL will be changed at the last trumpet, there is no one else that would be changed at some other time... The saints are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...because they are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th trumpet they were not also resurrected, judged, and rewarded before the 7th trumpet. This is what happens at the seventh trumpet: 1) The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ: 2) He takes to himself his great power and reigns... 3) Its the time of the dead that they should be judged... 4) He gives reward to his servants the prophets, the saints, and to them that fear his name both small and great... THIS IS THE TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED...ALL THE DEAD ARE RESURRECTED...HE THEN GIVES REWARDS TO HIS ALL HIS SAINTS...THE PROPHETS, THEM THAT FEAR HIS NAME BOTH SMALL AND GREAT... ALL THE SAINTS ARE RESURRECTED, JUDGED AND REWARDED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET... NOT PART OF THE SAINTS, NOT BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET...ALL THE SAINTS ARE RESURRECTED AND THE SAINTS ARE REWARDED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET... NO SAINT WAS JUDGED, REWARDED OR RESURRECTED TO IMMORTALITY BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET..IT HAPPENS TO ALL SAINTS AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET...NOT BEFORE!!!!! NOT AT ANOTHER TIME!!!! NOT PART OF THEM BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET, NOT PART OF THEM AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET...ALL ARE RESURRECTED, JUDGED AND REWARDED AT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET...!!!!

The change is not the same as ascending up to heaven...all are changed means all, both living and the dead are given immortal bodies...indeed all are changed at the exact same time, at the last trump...however the dead, who have just been given immortal bodies at the same time the living did, rise up, or ascend up to heaven BEFORE the living do...the dead ascend up to heaven and then descend down from heaven and the living then go up to meet them in the air...so the dead ascend up before the living, but all are changed at the exact same time.. 'Many' is used in the same way Jesus died for the sins of many...not meaning that he died for quite a few of us, but not all, but rather that the quantity of people he died for is great..as one translation puts it, 'multitudes of those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake...' meaning the quantity of people who will awake will be large.. Just as Jesus said ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...it is the same type of usage.. In one place it says Jesus died for the sins of many, and in other places it states he died for all... Paul is saying all the believers will be changed at the last trump...as he said elsewhere, Christ was the first that should rise, or in other words, Christ was the firstfruits, but then afterward, THEY THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING...'In other words ALL those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming...meaning, again, all the saints that belong to Christ, or in other words all the saints, will be resurrected, or changed at the second coming, which is to say, at the 7th trump, which is to say, at the last trump, for that is when Christ comes and sets up his kingdom on earth...there are no saints that are not changed at the last trump.

Saint is not the same word for angels..."Saints" is NOT used in scripture for angels. Saint is 'hagios' in Greek and 'qados' in Hebrew...angel is 'angelos' in Greek and 'malak' in Hebrew...they are not interchangeable... Hagios is used to denote a person, place, or thing to be holy, but when it used alone it means 'saint', not angel... The Israelites had armies divided by rank but the Israelites were flesh and blood humans, not angels.

ABSOLUTELY FALSE...ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP... Paul said we all shall all be changed at the last trump...saying all will not be changed at the last trump is ABSOLUTELY FALSE... Yes indeed... ABSOLUTELY CONTRADICTORY STATEMENT...I just proved the pre-tribulation model to be false does not mean the pre tribulation model has not been proven false.

Yes there is a resurrection in which all are changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...The change to both the living and the dead happens at the same time...i.e. the dead are resurrected and changed into immortal bodies at the same time the living are changed into immortal bodies... However the change into immortal bodies is not the same as ascending up to heaven...just like the two witnesses...they were FIRST resurrected and stood upon their feet...at this time they received their immortal bodies, however they were still standing on the ground until they heard the voice saying come up hither, and it was THEN that they ascended up to heaven in a cloud. Jesus was FIRST resurrected and then 40 days later he ascended up to heaven...so being glorified does not mean ascension up into heaven, however resurrection into glorified bodies IS NOT the end of the story...the dead in Christ RISE first (into heaven) ...remember, both groups had already been changed into immortal bodies, but neither group, dead or living, had yet ascended up..so that is why it says the dead in Christ RISE first, meaning both groups, dead and living, do rise up to heaven, but the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain are CAUGHT up together with them to meet the Lord IN THE AIR...So the dead go up to heaven and then Jesus brings THOSE THAT SLEEP WITH HIM, as they are DESCENDING down to the earth... The only way they can be descending down from heaven with Jesus is that they had to first be caught up there into heaven, so IT IS NOT JUST BEING RESURRECTED, that he is talking about..the same Bible that says we will be resurrected ALSO says the living believers will be CAUGHT UP together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. The same word for the man child being caught up to God and his throne which is Jesus ascending up into heaven is the same word 'caught up' where it says we will be caught up...the much people in heaven in Rev. 19:1 had to be caught up, or ascend up there in order to get there...it is completely false to say there will be no rapture, or not ascension, or no catching up for any believer...ABSOLUTELY FALSE...

'Bride' is mentioned in verse 17. I don't see Bride of the Lamb. Sorry I meant Rev 21:9-14 “ I will show you the bride, The lambs wife” I don’t know what you mean here… What I was meaning is that the word “hagios” is never translated “angels” but when hagios is used without a noun it is translated “saints.” In a context were there is a noun such as “angel” or “covenant” or “place” it then is used to identify that angel, or covenant or place as being HOLY… but when used without a noun it is translated “saints”. This is why the KJV translated it saints because there was no “ones” in the Greek, as the translators themselves added the word “ones” into the text which then turned the word hagios back into describing what the “ones” were, rather than leaving it as it was which would mean they were saints and not angels … Strongs defines the Hebrew word for saints as including an angel but this is an error as I looked through every reference to the word “quados” and it is never translated angel. Strong's Definitions: קָדוֹשׁ qâdôwsh,kaw-doshe'; or קָדֹשׁ qâdôsh; from H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary:—holy (One), saint. psalms 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. These are redeemed believers that are gathered to him.. not angels.. and they come down from heaven because that is where Jesus is.. He brings those that sleep in Jesus WITH HIM… Those that sleep in Jesus are not angels..they are resurrected saints and they are gathered to Jesus - This is the gathering Paul is talking about when he said “our gathering together unto him”.. They come down with Jesus meaning they FOLLOWED him, meaning he went BEFORE them, meaning THEY WERE BEHIND HIM… The bride descended out of heaven meaning she was in heaven.. there was a voice of MUCH PEOPLE (not angels) in heaven.. (Rev.19:1) The only way these people got up there was they were caught up there.. I.e. raptured, I.e. ascended up off the ground up into heaven just like the two witnesses ascended up to heaven in a cloud..

So here God is showing John the bride and then he describes her as a city...but the details of the city describes in an analogy what the bride is made up...she (the bride of Christ) has 12 foundations and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb...this means New Testament saints...then she is shown to have 12 gates and on the twelve gates are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel...this is showing Old Testament saints...but see, this is the BRIDE, the one and only BRIDE of Christ...pre trib attempts at the impossible of making God have two brides which is preposterous....Paul said there is ONE BODY...this is even more clear when looking at the Olive tree analogy given by Paul...Jesus said 'I am the true vine, and ye are the branches...' WHEN did he say this? Did he say you will BE the branches after my death, burial and resurrection? Of course not...Even in the analogy Paul gave he said Israel was the natural branches and they were broken off because of unbelief...do you see that? Pre trib and others point to the olive tree as if Israel is the tree and we are somehow grafted into Israel...NO...NO...NO...absolutely not...we are heirs together with Israel...the commonwealth of Israel... JESUS IS THE VINE...NOT ISRAEL!!! So what does that mean? It means the true believers of the Old Testament were IN CHRIST EVEN BEFORE WE WERE...as it is easy to see we were LATER grafted in, but the point is, what were we grafted into? We were grafted INTO CHRIST, the same JESUS CHRIST that they were broken off of because of their unbelief... But anyway, this is one of the reasons why it can be said that because they were the natural branches and were in Christ back then it is also apparent they died in Christ, just as they were living in Christ... This is also seen when they are grafted back into the vine at the second coming...it says God will pour out upon them the spirit of grace and supplication and BY ACCEPTING JESUS AT THAT TIME, THEY ARE AGAIN GRAFTED INTO THE SAME JESUS, THE SAME TRUE VINE, THE SAME OLIVE TREE, THAT THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FROM... So rather than having two brides, we have ONE TREE and two branches...this eliminates all the confusion...and Paul said he would not have us ignorant of this mystery, lest we be wise in our own conceits...and guess what has happened because of being ignorant of this mystery? We have a massive amount of people who are wise in their own conceits. ONE BRIDE, ONE CHURCH, ONE BODY...and we can see even with what Paul said that we are what? We are all baptized into that one body...we are all grafted into that that one body that already existed before Jesus came and died on the cross. So seeing we have ONLY ONE BRIDE consisting of both Old and New Testament saints, it would only make sense that John saw ONE BRIDE that had 12 gates and 12 foundations...not one bride having 12 gates and another bride having 12 foundations...but as ridiculous as this sounds, this is just one more fallacy that shows up because of injecting a rapture into the picture before the time...you end up having two comings, two judgments, an additional trip up to heaven, Jesus coming with only part of the saints, some of the saints are not changed at all, and some of them do not ascend up to heaven... Rev. 22:9-14 True. It was the holy city of Jerusalem. Yes, in this setting God specifically tells John 'I will show you the bride, the lambs wife...and then he sees this city...it is not a physical building he is marrying...his wife, or his people, is being described as a city... In Jude those saints are 'hagios' so it's ambiguous. Angels are also dressed in white linen. Yes, so the word 'hagios' can be misleading in the sense that it allegedly carries the meaning of 'angels' rather than 'saints.' But the word 'hagios' is one transliteration of 'holy' or 'saint' but there is a difference between a transliteration and a translation...a different translation implies a different meaning, whereas a transliteration is a grammatical construct making it applicable to a receptor language...but the meaning stays the same... For example, look in Strongs on the various transliterations of this word... Strong's Greek 40 235 Occurrences ἁγία — 14 Occ. ἅγιαι — 1 Occ. ἁγίαις — 3 Occ. ἁγίαν — 6 Occ. ἁγίας — 3 Occ. ἅγιε — 1 Occ. ἁγίῳ — 26 Occ. ἁγίων — 39 Occ. ἁγιωτάτῃ — 1 Occ. ἅγιοι — 8 Occ. ἁγίοις — 19 Occ. ἅγιον — 47 Occ. ἅγιος — 13 Occ. ἁγίου — 42 Occ. ἁγίους — 12 Occ. The above is from Bible Hub website but it shows these transliterations of the same word.. one definition is 'holy' and the other definition is 'saint'...it is never used in and of itself as a definition of an 'angel' rather the meaning of 'holy' is used in connection to what is referring to, such as his 'holy prophets,' in contrast to there were 'false prophets, or the 'holy spirit,' in contrast to an 'unclean spirit,' Strongs has 'Hagios' defined as: most holy, saint. From hagos (an awful thing) (compare hagnos, thalpo); sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint. This is how the word is translated in the NASB: Holy (92), holy (62), Holy of Holies (1), holy one (5), holy ones (1), holy place (7), most holy (1), saint (1), saints (59), saints' (1), sanctuary (2). You can see in both versions, the word 'hagios' itself is never translated 'angel' as angel is a different word, the word 'hagios' is either translated 'saint' or 'holy'...it might be self explanatory but there could be 'evil angels', but there is never an 'evil saint.' So the one description of the bride with 12 foundations and 12 gates would represent both Jew and Gentile believers, the scripture in Jude would include believers even before Abraham such as Abel and Noah. So the reason the scripture in Jude is explicitly saints is because there is no other object or entity being described, in other words in Jude it does not say 'the Lord will come with all his holy (adjective) 'angels', but rather he will come with all his 'saints,' which word needs no adjective as the word 'saint' is already descriptive of what kind of person it would be. It is not to say that there are no angels coming with him, as Matthew 25 does say 'when the Son of man shall come, and all the holy angels with him...' but in Jude it is expressly stating 'saints' and who will be executing judgment and convincing the ungodly... For example the first transliteration on the list would be ἁγία which occurs 14 times. This is used as an adjective describing a noun or a noun phrase... 1) HOLY ground...Acts 7:33 2) HOLY branches...Romans 11:16 3) HOLY calling...2 Tim. 1:9 4) HOLY place...Heb. 9:12 The next one on the list would be ἅγιαι and would only occur one time but again being used as an adjective describing what kind of woman was being talked about, i.e. a 'holy woman.' 1) 1 Peter 3:5 Here are the transliterations being used as adjectives only, such as a 'holy' person, place or thing: 1) ἁγία 2) ἅγιαι 3) ἁγίαν 4) ἁγίας 5) ἅγιε 6) ἁγίῳ 7) ἁγιωτάτῃ 8) ἅγιος 9) ἁγίου 10) Transliterations used as both an adjective defining a noun and also translated as 'saints:' 1) ἁγίων 2) ἅγιοι 3) ἅγιοι 4) ἅγιοι 5) ἁγίους The one word in Jude is ἁγίαις and is only used in two other places... 1) Romans 1: 2 "....prophets in the holy scriptures..." The word 'holy' describing an attribute of the scriptures that they were 'holy.' 2) 2 Peter 3:11 "...to be in [all] holy conversation and..." The word 'holy' describing what type of conversation we should have... But in Jude there is no noun attached to the word ἁγίαις, unless it was added by the translators...as in the following: ESV - “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, NASB20- “Behold, the Lord has come with [fn]many thousands of His holy ones, RSV - "Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, But we must take some of these versions with a grain of salt, knowing that in order to copyright a version some words must be changed or added and sometimes the words may make a statement more clear with today's English or the chosen word may actually obscure it. For example if the original wording was he would come with 'someone' and these who he was coming with were also being described as being 'holy' then it could be understood to mean both angels and saints, or just angels, or just saints, but in the absence of the word 'ones' the word would revert to being a noun itself, i.e. he would be referring to 'saints' and no one else. This is not to say he is not coming with angels as well, but this would not be the verse that would show that. This link in Bible Hub https://biblehub.com/text/jude/1-14.htm shows the word 'ones' in the phrase 'amidst holy ones,' is in brackets meaning it was added by the translators .... Text Analysis Go to Parallel Greek Strong's Greek English Morphology 4395 [e] Προεφήτευσεν* Proephēteusen Prophesied V-AIA-3S 1161 [e] δὲ de then Conj 2532 [e] καὶ kai also Conj 3778 [e] τούτοις toutois as to these DPro-DMP 1442 [e] ἕβδομος hebdomos [the] seventh Adj-NMS 575 [e] ἀπὸ apo from Prep 76 [e] Ἀδὰμ Adam Adam, N-GMS 1802 [e] Ἑνὼχ Henōch Enoch, N-NMS 3004 [e] λέγων legōn saying: V-PPA-NMS 3708 [e] Ἰδοὺ Idou Behold, V-AMA-2S 2064 [e] ἦλθεν ēlthen has come V-AIA-3S 2962 [e] Κύριος Kyrios [the] Lord N-NMS 1722 [e] ἐν en amidst Prep 40 [e] ἁγίαις hagiais holy [ones] Adj-DFP 3461 [e] μυριάσιν myriasin myriads N-DFP 846 [e] αὐτοῦ, autou of His, PPro-GM3S Also in Strongs the word [ones] is in brackets holy [ones] ἁγίαις (hagiais) Adjective - Dative Feminine Plural Strong's Greek 40: Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. From hagos; sacred. Also the NASB adds the word 'ones' to their translation then uses the word 'hagios' as an adjective that would then describe these 'ones,' whoever they may be, as being 'holy.' NASB Lexicon NASB © Greek Strong's Origin [It was] also καὶ (kai) 2532: and, even, also a prim. conjunction about these 3778: this probably from a redupl. of ho,, used as a demonstrative pronoun men [that] Enoch, Ἑνὼχ (enōch) 1802: Enoch, a patriarch of Hebrew origin Chanok [in] the seventh ἕβδομος (ebdomos) 1442: seventh ord. from hepta [generation] from Adam, Ἀδὰμ (adam) 76: Adam, the first man of Hebrew origin Adam prophesied, Ἐπροφήτευσεν (eprophēteusen) 4395: to foretell, tell forth, prophesy from prophétés saying, λέγων (legōn) 3004: to say a prim. verb "Behold, Ἰδοὺ (idou) 2400: look, behold from eidon, used as a demonstrative particle the Lord κύριος (kurios) 2962: lord, master from kuros (authority) came ἦλθεν (ēlthen) 2064: to come, go a prim. verb with many thousands μυριάσιν (muriasin) 3461: ten thousand, a myriad from murios of His holy ones, ἁγίαις (agiais) 40: sacred, holy from a prim. root So what I am getting at, is in the absence of a noun such as 'ones' the word should be left translated as 'saints' and not be made ambiguos by adding the word 'ones' into the phrase, and leave other scriptures to define what role the angels will play in this scenario. One scripture that might be used to counter that the saints are referred to here is in Isaiah ... I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. At what seems to be face value no one would be coming with him to execute vengeance, but Jude plainly states he would come WITH then thousands of his saints TO EXECUTE JUDGEMENT UPON ALL..The enigma is done away with when we read that he is not saying no one came with him, but rather that the people that were not with him were in fact the object of his wrath. Of course this is referring to Armageddon where he slays the armies of the beast and the blood comes up to the horses bridles...as it states, 'of the people there was none with me...for I will tread THEM (the people who were not with him, i.e. the armies of the beast) in mine anger...' In Revelation 19 :19 it also states the beast makes war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. The one scripture in Revelation 19:14 states the 'armies' (plural) that were in heaven followed him, which seems to imply there would be more than one army, one being the army of saints and the other one of angels...but of course this may be a translator choice of words, because the same word 'army' (singular) is used in Rev. 19: 19. There may be some grammatical reason for one being singular and the other plural, but seeing that both groups are coming with Jesus, it would make sense that they could be referred to as singular and also in the plural. Also in Psalm 149: 6 it states: "Let the high praises of God be in their moutb, and a two edged sword in their hand; to execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the juidgment written; this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.'

They that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful… these are saints ..not angels.. the bride is described as both old and New Testament saints.. God does not marry a physical building made up of gates and foundations made up of literal precious stones… The point is the bride does not fit the pre trib description as being only saints who lived from Pentecost until before the tribulation—- Total fabrication— When God showed John the bride it was NOT described as - “And I saw the bride- part of the saints descending down from heaven… yea, even those who lived from Pentecost till before the rapture…”ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… in order to come back with Jesus you have to in immortal bodies… Pre trib does not even have all of trib saints changed and none of them ascend up because they allegedly missed the rapture.. all this is false… The bride is all the saints and they all descended down from heaven meaning they all had to get up there first… And yes the saints are called “ The armies that were in heaven” and yes they were called and chosen and faithful and yes he comes with ten thousands of his saints To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. The fine linen she was clothed in is the righteousness of the saints and those armies that followed him were clothed in fine linen clean and white- saints - not angels These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. They are not called armies for no reason…

The thing I was wanting to show was that in order for all the resurrected saints to come back with Jesus they must first all ascend up to heaven.. meaning they have to get up there before they can come down… The bride includes both old and New Testament saints and she descends down from heaven… the bride is not angels but saints …

It’s not “OR” all his angels, but “ALL” his holy ones.. saints and angels are both translated holy ones so he comes with all his holy ones would be all the holy angels and all his holy saints…The point being he brings those that sleep in Jesus with him-those that sleep in Jesus are resurrected saints-not angels

WHAT????????? So to clarify I am meaning all the people from Adam until the second coming who have died are resurrected and both good and bad are judged and receive their rewards...those who were saints were glorified and will rule with Christ and be like the angels who never die and the wicked dead will have been cast into the fire...so what we have is the multitudes who were alive at the time Christ came who convert and come under the rule of Christ and the saints...These are people in natural bodies who are just like you and me who were alive at the time Christ returned and they washed their robes in the blood of the lamb... What I am getting at is there is only one last generation of people who would be alive at the time Christ returns, and they would be just like we are...natural human beings who marry, eat and drink, have babies, work in the fields and so forth... So please forgive me for not being clearer, but what I mean is that when Christ comes the entire world of the living and the dead is judged and rewarded, and the Great White throne judgment pertains only then to those who would be alive and die during that thousand year period. I should not have said an entirely new set of people...as the generation that existed at the time carries on throughout the 1000 years depending on how long they live and so forth. the thrust of what I was getting at was the judgment at the Second Coming pertains to one group of people and the GWT judgment pertains to those who would be alive or die from the second coming to the end of the 1000 years,obviously meaning there would be deaths and births during that time who never had anything to do with what happened at the second coming.

I was responding to the above quote when I said the wheat and the tares concerning the end of THIS age, and not when Jesus ascended up to heaven...two different time frames..the one when Christ ascended was not the end of the age when Christ returns...that is the end of the age the wheat and tares are about. I was not accusing you of saying the tares were resurrected and thrown into the fire when Jesus ascended into heaven...I was clarifying that the time the wheat and the tares were in reference to was not when Jesus ascended and so I made the statement that it does not say the wicked dead were cast into the fire at that time...I did not say it to accuse you of saying it but rather to clarify that you have the time frames mixed up...because of what you said here: both the wheat and the tares are not gathered or resurrected UNTIL the end of THIS AGE...so there is absolutely no reference to wheat being gathered at any time BEFORE the end of this age, as you were relating the wheat to those who had allegedly rose up to heaven at his ascension...there were no saints that ascended up to heaven when Christ ascended up, therefore the wheat analogy does not apply not only because the time frame is off, but because no wheat ever was gathered at that time anyway. When I said these were all imaginations of yours I was not directly referring to you saying the tares were cast into the fire when Jesus ascended...I know you did not say that, and it was not directed towards you as if you did say that...I was meaning the whole time frame of the wheat and tares has nothing to do with what wheat being gathered at the time Christ ascended as the parable clearly is explained that the harvest, when the gathering takes place is at the end of the age and no wheat or tares were ever gathered until that time, meaning the wheat being gathered in the parable of the wheat and tares has absolutely nothing to do with what happened when Jesus arose...This error that wheat was being gathered at his ascension and the error of inserting the gathering of the wheat and tares into the time frame of the ascension was what I was referring to when I said this is all in your imagination...not that you said the tares were gathered and burned in the fire when Jesus ascended...I said that to make it clear IF the time frame of the wheat and tares was when Christ arose, then there would have also been a resurrection of the wicked dead which of course did not happen, and will not happen until Jesus comes. Please forgive for wording it in a way that could be misunderstood as if I was saying you were saying the wicked dead were resurrected when Christ arose...I know you did not say that, and I was not meaning to imply you did. Really bothers you that much you have resorted to saying things yourself and acting like I said them AND then calling them my imagination? The evil figs were so evil they couldn't be eaten. LOTS BEING WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS TODAY.

Like as was said you embrace the scripture that states Lazarus was not dead, then ignore the other aspect that Jesus plainly said Lazarus is dead… Two aspects- one is spiritual and one is physical.. not just one aspect without denying what Jesus said.. Job said man lies down (dies) and riseth not (is not resurrected from the dead even though spiritually he is sleeping) until the heavens be no more they shall not awake (not be resurrected from the physical state of death into an incorruptible body) UNTIL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE.. You HAVE TO MAINTAIN THE THOUGHT THAT LAZARUS NEVER DIED SO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THERE WILL BE A PHYSICAL RESURRECTION OF SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED EVEN THOUGH SPIRITUALLY THEY ARE SLEEPING. This is the result of not accepting EVERYTHING Jesus said even while you claim you are accepting ONLY what scripture says.. SCRIPTURE SAID Lazarus died.. you claim he did not BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING THE TWO FOLD ASPECTS OF DEATH.. one is spiritual and one is natural. I gave you a number OF SCRIPTURES saying Lazarus was dead… Jesus said it, others said it, the scripture itself said Lazarus was dead. I agree with you that Lazarus was not dead spiritually , but I also agree with scripture that Lazarus was dead physically… I agree with scripture that not even the wicked dead are dead spiritually yet.. as their judgment awaits when they will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. But even the term “second death” implies they had already died physically before this.. that is how there is a resurrection of both the just and the unjust because BOTH HAVE PHYSICALLY DIED..

There is no such thing as a “just unbeliever” There will be a resurrection of the dead both of the just and of the unjust but no such thing a just unbeliever.

Just like Job said .. So man lieTH down and riseth not.. until the heavens be no more they shall NOT AWAKE OR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP.. Job 14:2 When are the heavens departed? At the sixth seal just before Jesus returns. “ And the heavens departed as a scroll when it is rolled together (Rev. 6:14) It’s the same event in Is 34:4 “ And all host of heaven shall be dissolved and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll..” THIS IS WHEN THE DEAD ARISE… ABSOLUTELY AND NOT BEFORE!!! Job said until the heavens be no more THEY SHALL NOT ARISE OR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP!!!!

It was a vision. Jesus said tell THE VISION to no man … Just like when Peter saw a great sheet let down from heaven with all the animals… He couldn’t reach out pet the animals or physically touch them because IT WAS A VISION… Moses and Elijah really were sleeping - They were not really there any more than the animals in Peters vision

Christ was the first to rise to immortality… When Jesus was here he said no man has ascended up to heaven, except the son of man who is in heaven.. he ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY… The wheat (Abraham, Issaac , Peter Paul and Mary ect.. ect… ect… all grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST . NO ONE GETS IMMORTALITY UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE.. Let both grow together until harvest does not mean let part of the wheat get harvested before the end of the age and let another part of the wheat get harvested at the end of the age.. The end of THIS AGE does not mean the last day of the Old Testament… On the last day of the Old Testament the WICKED DEAD DID NOT GET RESURRECTED … When it said many of the saints which slept arose it does not also say - “And all the wicked dead who slept arose also and were cast into everlasting fire.. NO NO AND NO.. THESE ARE ALL IMAGINATIONS OF YOURS… NO WHEAT ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN AT THE TIME JESUS ASCENDED.. No tares we’re cast into the fire when Jesus ascended.. THESE ARE EVENTS THAT HAPPEN TO ALL THE WHEAT AND ALL THE TARES AT THE SECOND COMING!!!!

Sorry my typo … I meant last day of the Old Testament