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I do not agree that Israel is not Israel, the Jewish people. God honors His promise to us and we are raptured. He honors promises for the people, including Jews that live after that in the last seven years of wrath. He also honors all the promises to Israel, the Jews, when they are saved at the end of the tribulation. It is not mutually exclusive where He honors only one set of promises. Israel being saved takes nothing away from us. Our being saved takes nothing from them. The Jews for whom something was taken away were the unbelieving Jews. The kingdom was taken from them. Not from Jewish believers. That will be restored one day! Doing mental gymnastics and hammering the bible to try to make Israel be something else is not a proper understanding.

No. We don't really know all the details. But the promise of eternal life was given, for sure. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Also the context of Paul talking about predestinated seems to be about us a a body or group. Example from Rom 8.. 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh --fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. --they that are after the Spirit --ye are not in the flesh --he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you --we are the children of God --joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together --the glory which shall be revealed in us --And not only they, but ourselves also --we are saved by hope --we hope for that we see not --helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us --them who are the called Then in the next verse ... whom he did foreknow So whom was it He foreknew? Us,our,we,ourselves,them who are called etc etc. So I see this as referring to those he was just talking about. He knew we would choose Him. I do not see that to mean that he preprogrammed us individually so that there was no choice. I see it as God making a Way for us to come to Him, and knowing many would. Jesus is that Way. The choice is ours. When we choose Jesus that means also that He chose us. Looking at the rest of the bible the context is clear. Those who will, can be saved. Those who will not are not chosen.

That time when it is restored of course referring to His return.

Once they get saved God conquers all their enemies. That doesn't fit. No. Again that does not fit. The Abomination of desolation is in the middle of the 7 years, not the end. No. If they worshiped Jesus in the sacrifices no one would be able to bother them. It would be all over. The reason Satan is allowed to attack them is because they did not accept Jesus, not because they did! No way. It is the dragon that gets chased to the pit once Israel gets saved! The Tribulation is FOR Israel (and others) to learn they need Good and finally accept Jesus.

When they see Him whom they believe and that is faith. He counts that. Firstly, the 2 prophets are not named. I have seen many guesses for that. Secondly how do you know exactly when they show up? The 30 and 45 extra days are not before the Tribulation but after. Why? Because the big count is 1290. Then more are mentioned after that. Israel will not have 30 days to flee. Jesus made that clear. The MUST flee so fast that they do not even go back in their house to grab a needed coat or anything else! You seem to be welding scripture to fit your pet ideas.

Of course. He chooses all who choose Jesus. We have the choice and that was what was foreordained. That was decided before the world began.

That is something that was not in 1948 for starters. Since it says that Jesus was in heaven until the time of restoration, that seems to tell us it is after He returns.

God's chosen people are anyone that chooses Him. It was ordained that all who would choose Him would have eternal life. When all Israel chooses Jesus in the end, the former chosen people will again be His chosen people!

? Kingdom being restored? What kingdom? Not the kingdom of God. Not any worldly kingdom that will last. So...?

It sounds like you are unaware of who all is involved in Jesus destroying all His enemies. No problem. Isa 62: 1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth. Yes, do you know how to address the topic?

I showed clearly and equivocally that eze 37 was set in the future, not history. No. The bible does not say that. You say that. Bozrah smozrah. I say they are all over preaching and doing wonders and facing death and danger protected by God till the end. The wilderness does not have to mean some few square miles in Petra only! Yes, the world will go after believers, Jews as well as all others. The term remnant may not be one word that always has to refer to one thing. In the case of the Jews who are left alive, it means those left alive when they get saved. Not complicated. I just said the word can be used for more than one group. You seem to think if I use the word remnant it has to mean what you prefer. No. In the case of Israel, it is only those who survive that finally repent and are saved. I call that a remnant. You can call it a tomato if you like. What is your point about the phase of 30 or 75 days or whatever after He returns? Some people need to wash their hands after what they 'dig out'. Firstly who cares if there are little periods of days to wrap things up? Why would we listen to you speculate and what difference does it make?? Conjecture. How about there are a few small phases involved in mopping things up after He returns? No need to have some would be genius speculation about it at all. We will see one day. If if if. If there is a cosmic time jump ..then this and that must be true etc etc etc. The bottom line is that it was not 1948. The chapter makes that clear. What else matters? Maybe. However, perhaps descendants of these various people live in the end also. If so, then it makes sense to refer to those people as well. When Israel gets saved in the end, God restores them good and proper in other words. Nothing to do with 1948. ? Say what? He rules after He returns for 1000 years. You seem to have it hass backwards. It is not a 1000 year lead up to His ruling. I never speculated at all on how many get Raptured. Strawman. As for the days of the last 3 1/2 years, that is a moot point. Apparently Jesus comes back, and then there are a small number of weeks and days where some things happen as we enter the 1000 years. No need to speculate on details now. Perhaps it takes some days to judge the nations? Who knows? Who really cares now? There are seven final years and then Jesus returns and rules. Great. No news there, many believers feel the dark days may be coming to an end soon.

? How could Good lose a war? Of course He takes care of business when He returns. Nations that gathered do so before this and for the reason that He destroys them by His coming. Not sure what point you are trying to make? The final period of seven years is a special time, set apart from all other periods. The 'church age' has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation and the church is not even here for it. The final phase of the tribulation is the worst. Also the final part of that 3'12 years is the worst still. That does nothing to take away from the fact that the first part of the seven years is also terrible beyond anything ever seen. So what do they do, paint and play harps? If they endure harp playing they are super blessed? Who knows? Who cares? If God holds back angels from lowering the boom for a bit, I see no problem. It does not say my people Israel. It says my people! Not just Jews get saved in the end. I also see no reason that all Israel is cowering in Petra including the 144,000 witnesses! Some, maybe. We do know that many will do exploits in the end and have some help from God. There is no reason to think the 144,000 are not included to say the least! I see no reality to the idea that the 144,000 are holed up in a rock city doing great carpentry exploits only! If there were a few million or hundred thousand 'terrorists' (as they may call believers then) hiding in Petra that the armed forces of the world could not wipe them out? What, God puts a star wars bubble around the place and they sit there doing no preaching for many years??

In Dan 9 I think it is correct that the he refers to the prince that shall come (AntiChrist) In that case it works out the same as what I said. I see no issue. Great. No problem. Obviously it is not just one day. Conjecture. What is your point? Is it that you are saying the day of the Lord starts and ends in a certain time? Keep it simple. What is your point? Looking at Rev 8 the first angel sounded and we see this The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. What has that to do with an asteroid that you gave a name to? Try to be clear rather than trying to sound deep. Now where are you wandering off to? What event exactly and what does it have to do with anything here? So you seem to ignore the Great Tribulation. That is the specific time where prophesy focuses on. That is the wrath of God. All other tribulations are not like the final days at all. Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be I am not sure that ONLY those who were beheaded get raised when He returns. Those who were beheaded in that time do get raised and apparently first as a blessing. There is plenty that goes on in the first three and a half years as well. Horrors. The angels are sounding populations dying etc etc. So I agree with the people that say it is all the period of the wrath of God. Of course the great day when Jesus returns caps it all off! The mid point is also a specially horrible part of that.

On the point that Zec 13 and Eze 37 are the same event, it seems to me that is the case also. After they are saved. That then is the very end of the Tribulation. So is that what you are saying also? So unless we rearrange verses, your timing is off? I am not sure about the term first resurrection. I don't want to get hung up on it. Yes the wicked are raised after the 1000 years. Before that time Jesus was raised first. Later the Bride was raptured. Later still the trib saints are raptured. Later still the millennial saints are raptured! Therefore any event after the 1000 years could not be talking about any of this. So who is left dead at this time? There are the wicked of all ages. But there are apparently also some believers. Why, because the great white throne judgment in the end we see that only those who were not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. So that means some were and some were not damned. OK looking at the verses you mentioned about the first resurrection we see this Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The timing here is before the 1000 years since they reign for the 1000 years. Specifically those who were martyrs from the Tribulation. Maybe even specifically those who were beheaded in that time. Perhaps as an honor they might raise first? In a similar way the dead in Christ at the Rapture before this were raised first. So could we simply say that this seems to refer to the resurrection event when Jesus returns with us and points out the folks who were first raised in that event? If so, all the rest of the believers might also be raised here a moment later?! But the martyrs who are part of this 'first resurrection' are specially honored or blessed. If this is correct then it is simple and nothing conflicts at all. You are welcome to suggest alternatives. Because there is so much to think about here, I'll look at the rest of your post later

Now, is this the end of God's prophecy? Is that the completeness of God's work? Absolutely not! It was only the beginning! Through that work, Israel was put back in the Land they were promised to possess. Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man! Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

Says you. I bet He worked in the lives of the actual believers that were booted from that land as well. When God restores Israel it will be when they all are believers in Jesus. Not before. He allowed them to gather themselves in that place for judgment to come. That is a far cry from tenderly gathering His people as He will do after they get saved. There will be no confusion or maybes. Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF! Did He get the terrorists there to do their thing then? Did He want people treated as they were in that area? I did not see God destroy all their enemies. They are surrounded! They will in fact be attacked by them one day. Why would anyone conclude God gathered them when clearly He only does that after they accept Jesus? What God are you talking about? Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man! Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

Says you. I bet He worked in the lives of the actual believers that were booted from that land as well. When God restores Israel it will be when they all are believers in Jesus. Not before. He allowed them to gather themselves in that place for judgment to come. That is a far cry from tenderly gathering His people as He will do after they get saved. There will be no confusion or maybes. Yes, in no uncertain terms, GOD RESTORED ISRAEL IN 1948! There can be no other SANE conclusion! To deny God's hand in it is to deny God HIMSELF! Did He get the terrorists there to do their thing then? Did He want people treated as they were in that area? I did not see God destroy all their enemies. They are surrounded! They will in fact be attacked by them one day. Why would anyone conclude God gathered them when clearly He only does that after they accept Jesus? What God are you talking about? Says who? They came there themselves. When He restores them they actually will be restored. When He protects them they really will be protected! etc Another of man's hellish wars. Seriously? God makes wars to end until the end of the world. When God destroys the wicked and the enemies of saved Israel, He will need no army of man! Those who claim God gathered them already know nothing of God. Unless you provide real Scriptural support, you have no case at all.

Says who? If God protects you it will be no secret. He protects His children, and until they get saved they are not His. The death count shows both sides lost thousands of men. "ARAB-ISRAELI WAR, 1948-49: Israel lost 6,200 killed, and Arab losses were estimated at 2,000 regular soldiers killed. Thousands of Arab and Palestinian irregulars were also believed killed." https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-03-08-mn-2592-story.html We should also note that tens of thousands of believers lived in the area before 1948. "In the 1922 census of Palestine there were approximately 73,000 Christian Palestinians: 46% Orthodox, 40% Catholic (20% Roman Catholic, and 20% Eastern Catholic. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians " The Christian "exodus" from the Holy Land can be traced to 1948, when more than 750,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes by the creation of the State of Israel. With hundreds of Palestinian villages destroyed and at least half of the indigenous population displaced to refugee camps internally or in neighboring countries, Christians and Muslims -- whose roots in the Holy Land stretched back for centuries -- suffered the same fate. That Israel bore responsibility for this Palestinian nakba, or "catastrophe," was affirmed by the Israeli historian Benny Morris in a 1986 paper for the journal Middle Eastern Studies. In fact, Morris traces the Palestinian exodus to before 1948, when Jewish terrorist groups systematically harassed and expelled tens of thousands of indigenous Arabs. Morris cites a June 30, 1948 "military intelligence" report from the Haganah, which boasted that "[a]t least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." Morris continues: "To this figure, the report's compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which 'directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration'. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to 'fears' and 'a crisis of confidence' affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..." Conveniently, the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics offers no breakdown of religious groups for 1948, the year Israel was created. Still, a recent report shows that some Palestinian population centers saw their Christian population virtually gutted; Haifa, for example, lost 85 percent of its Christian residents in 1948. And in any case, no historian, Israeli or otherwise, disputes that Zionist forces unleashed equal brutality on all of Palestine's Arabs. As such, the modern Christian exodus from the Holy Land began with the creation of the State of Israel." https://imeu.org/article/christians-in-the-holy-land-under-israeli-siege So, would you call the treatment of God's people there a miracle as well? No. That happens after Jesus returns. All Israel only gets saved when they get saved. It is not some process. As soon as they believe in Jesus they are saved! Only then will God restore the nation. You could say that about many countries. Why is God protecting Russia, The USA, Germany...etc? Who says He is? When He steps in it will be clear. No. We are seeing people move as they choose. When GOD restores them, it will be real. When He protects them it will be real. Jer 16 according to a commentary I just read refers to the captivity. https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bbc/jeremiah-16.html#verse-1 Why would you be trying to make it sound as if it is prophesy about the tribulation and end time?? Joel 3 is clearly talking about the end. Not 1948. Here is the setting and time involved. Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. That is the days the prophesy is in! Look at the next verse Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem There were no wonders in the heavens in 1948, nor the sun going dark! Etc. Again, you are batting ZERO.

Who says it is a progression and incremental? No one. No chance. Israel today is not saved and has no breath. He puts life in them WHEN they are saved in the end (or if any are saved before). WHEN they live (are saved) then God will restore and protect them. Not now! They protect themselves now, and that is why they will learn it does not work. If God was protecting them all their enemies would be destroyed in a New York minute!

That is after they are saved in the end. No. You are adding things and straining at nats. You seem to suggest that the day of the Lord is one single day. You do not gather nations of the world together in one day. So, forget your attempt at using terminology to prop up your pet theories. The above verses refer to the end part of the Great Tribulation just before Christ returns. Bingo, when He returns. That is not 31/2 years later. Why did you insert that? The whole tribulation is God's wrath. The phase or part of that wrath in which the remnant are saved is right around the time at the end when Jesus returns. Your lame attempt to relegate the 144000 Jewish witnesses to 'a code' is laughable. Says---who? Where does the bible say GOD brings them back before they repent? Israel will be there, yes. In what way does that mean God did it before they become His saved people? God knew they would form a nation in the end, yes, of course. It only after they are saved that He restores them and protects them etc. Says...who? Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The dragon makes war in the tribulation and the ones who keep His commandments then are tribulation believers. The church/Bride has gone up to be with Him already by then. We know this is the Tribulation period because it spells it out. Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Having fun making stuff up? Says who? What verse says God only protects 1/3? False. The time is clear in Eze 37 Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. They NOW defile themselves big time. They have transgressions etc. They are NOT cleansed at all now. That has diddly squat to do with 1948. Not all Israel is Israel actually. Not all Jews we are told are Jews, but those that are Jews inwardly. The nation called Israel will be mostly killed and only a remnant will remain alive that will get saved. That is all Israel at the time! The smaller number that are left! So yes of course their salvation will be based on faith in Jesus.

OK, so your position is that Israel was not restored by God to the land in 1948.

When? The issue is not the captivity or history but when God restores Israel in the end. That verse says nothing of 1948 Again, nothing to do with 1948. Jer 23 is clearly future. Jeremiah 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord . Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord , that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. Same thing here Amos 9 is future. Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: Amos 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this. Zep 3 has zero to do with 1948. Zephaniah 3:15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord , is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. Are you claiming they saw no evil since 1948?! You serious? NONE of the verses even applied to 1948. Eze 36 for example Ezekiel 36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God . Also Eze 39 Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God ; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: Ezekiel 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: That is an end time battle, zero to do with 1948 or God having restored them to the land. You are batting zero so far.

Speaking of reading, did you notice that was after they repent and are saved? The remnant left alive at that time will all get saved. That has zero to do with the secular state that was started in 1948 No one mentioned any lost anything. Strawman. After most of Israel is killed in the end, a remnant will remain and be saved. Made? Or will make one day? I already showed how eze 37 refers to the end period. No. Israel is mostly unbelievers today. This is news? They are not being led by God at all. They have not been saved, David does not rule them etc etc etc etc etc. The Israel that gets saved in the end (not 1948) will be all those alive at the time after most have been killed. They finally say uncle and realize Jesus is their Messiah. He then wipes out all their enemies etc.

Where does that say that God gathers them before they get saved?

When does this happen? Not in 1948. Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord . That is not in an unsaved people and He never put His Spirit in a secular nation in 1948. Nor do the unsaved there now live, nor do they know Jesus as Lord. Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God ; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Only when the remnant are saved do they come out of their graves and live. The graves were not opened in 1948. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord . He puts His spirit in saved people. Not in dead people that do not love or believe in Him. Israel in 1948 did not know that Jesus brought them to the land. Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. They do not have one king now or in 1948. They do defile themselves. They do have transgressions now. He did not save them today. Only those who come to Him. That is not Israel today obviously. Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. David is not ruling them today. We can put your claims to rest.