Charlie744
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2 hours ago, Michael37 said:
Hi @Charlie744
Your Attachment has failed. If the system sees bulk data in attachments the Spam Prevention kicks in.
While approved website addresses are permitted in Member Profiles, it is against Worthy Terms of Service to use Worthy Forums to continuously promote your own publications with mass posts, attachments, or links to them.
You have been warned.
I see. I will not attach such a large document…
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On 6/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Dennis1209 said:
Well, there is no short and simple answer to your questions I can come up with. So, here are some of my well documented notes fully explained on where and how we come up with the final week, seven days representing seven years.
- The scope: Daniel 9:24 - 490 years
- The 483 years: Daniel 9:25
- The church age: Daniel 9:26
- The last 7 years: Daniels 70th week - Time of Jacob’s trouble (3.5 years)
As the events recorded in Rev. 6:1 to Rev. 19:21, are connected with the last, or “Seventieth Week,” of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS,” it is necessary that we stop here and explain what is meant by Daniel’s “Seventieth Week.”
[Dennis note: The 70th week (time of Jacob’s trouble) starts exactly when this occurs]
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years – A.O.D.) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [emphasis added]
The Prophet Daniel had been 68 years (B.C. 538) in Babylon, and by a study of the Prophecy of Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11), he discovered that the “Seventy Years” Captivity of his people was nearing its end, and so he set his face unto the Lord, to seek by prayer and supplication (Dan. 9:3) to know the exact time of its ending, and while he was praying the Angel Gabriel appeared to enlighten him. (Dan. 9:20–23.) Daniel was concerned about the expiration of the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, and the restoration of his people to Palestine, and the rebuilding of the City of Jerusalem and of the Temple. But the Angel Gabriel came to disclose to him something more important than that. While he doubtless informed Daniel that God would fulfill His promise as to the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, which, as we know, He did, he also made known to Daniel that that would not end the troubles of Israel. That while the Jews were to return to Jerusalem at the end of the “Seventy Years” of Captivity, there was a longer period to elapse before the Kingdom would be restored to them, a period of
“SEVENTY WEEKS.”
“SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon Thy People (Daniel’s people the Jews) and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the ‘MESSIAH THE PRINCE’ shall be SEVEN WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, but not for Himself: and the people (Roman) of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (Antichrist) shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the Covenant with many for ONE WEEK (the last or Seventieth Week): and in the midst of THE WEEK he (Antichrist) shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblations to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Christ, Matt. 24:15) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” Dan. 9:24–27.
This Vision of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” is the most important revelation, in many ways, made in the Scriptures. We are here told that this Period of “SEVENTY WEEKS” was determined upon Daniel’s PEOPLE (the Jews), and upon the HOLY CITY (Jerusalem). This is very important. It discloses the fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” have nothing to do with the Gentiles, or the Church, but only with the JEWS and JERUSALEM. It also discloses another important fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” only cover the period when the Jews are DWELLING IN THEIR OWN LAND, and does not cover the present period of their Dispersion. We are told in verse 24 that these “SEVENTY WEEKS” were determined for a SIX-FOLD purpose.
1. TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION.
It is the transgression of ISRAEL that is here referred to, and the finishing of it will be the turning away of UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. Rom. 11:26–27. The transgression of Israel has not yet come to an end, and will not until they as a Nation shall be converted.
2.TO MAKE AN END OF SINS.
The margin reads to “seal up” sins. The sins of ISRAEL. This may refer to the author of Israel’s sins—Satan, who shall at that time be “sealed up” in the Pit. Rev. 20:1–3.
3. TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY.
This refers to ISRAEL’S iniquity in the rejection of their Messiah. While atonement was made for their sin on the Cross, its application to Israel as a Nation awaits the day when they shall look on Him whom they pierced (Zech. 12:10), and a fountain shall be opened to the “House of David,” and the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanliness, Zech. 13:1, and a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be “born again” in a day. Isa. 66:8.
4. TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.
When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has come to an end, and her sins are “sealed up,” then everlasting righteousness shall be brought in. The King will come, and the Kingdom be restored to Israel, and the Millennium will be here, and the “Knowledge of the Lord” shall cover the earth, as the waters cover the sea. Hab. 2:14.
5. TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY.
When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has ceased and they have uninterrupted communion with God, there will no longer be any need for “Vision” or “Prophet.” It is a noteworthy fact that “Vision” and “Prophecy” has been confined to the Jewish race.
6. TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.
This probably refers to the anointing of the “Most Holy Place,” or the “Holy of Holies” of the MILLENNIAL TEMPLE, described by Ezekiel. Ezek. 41. There is great significance in this announcement; for, although the Tabernacle of Moses was anointed (Lev. 8:10), there is no mention of such a ceremony in the Consecration of either Solomon’s Temple, or the Temple of Zerubbabel, for those buildings were considered merely as continuations of the Mosaic Tabernacle. But when the King comes back and sits upon the Throne of His father David, there is to be a magnificent Temple erected, the like of which has never as yet been seen on this planet of ours. There will be no “Ark of the Covenant” with its “Mercy Seat,” in the “Most Holy Place” of the Millennial Temple (Jer. 3:16), but in its place will stand the ROYAL THRONE on which the “BRANCH,” the Messiah shall sit as a KING-PRIEST (Zech. 6:12–13), and whose anointing is here referred to.
Now as the fulfilment of this “Six-Fold” purpose of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” synchronizes with the things that shall happen at the close of this Dispensation, and that are described in Rev. 6:1; 19:21, it is clear that the last, or “SEVENTIETH WEEK” of Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks,” covers the “TIME PERIOD” of Rev. 6:1; 19:21, and confirms the claim that that “Period” is Jewish and has nothing to do with the Church. To prove this it is only necessary to outline Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks.”
The “Seventy Weeks” are divided into “THREE PERIODS” of 7 Weeks, and 62 Weeks, and 1 Week. They cover the time from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, which was the 14th day of the month Nisan (March) B. C. 445, to the Second Stage (The Revelation) of the Second Coming of Christ. The “First Period,” 7 WEEKS, refers to the time required to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, which was 49 years, thus giving us the “Key” to the meaning of the word “WEEK,” for if 7 WEEKS are equal to 49 YEARS, then 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS. Now we are told that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (B. C. 445) unto the “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” shall be 7 WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS, or 69 WEEKS, or, if 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS, 7 × 69 or 483 YEARS. Now Jesus, as “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” rode in triumph into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, April 2, A. D. 30. The difference in time between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30 is 475 years, but, as we have seen, 69 WEEKS equal 483 years, a difference of 8 years. How are we to explain this difference?
The 475 years between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30, are Julian or Astronomical years of 365¼ days each, but when we reduce them to Calendar years of 360 days each, the year used in the Scriptures, we find that we have exactly 483 years of 360 days each. This proves that there was no break between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” and that the prophecy that there should be 69 WEEKS to the coming of “MESSIAH THE PRINCE” was literally fulfilled. Now as 69 WEEKS of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” have already expired, and all that was prophesied to occur during those “SEVENTY WEEKS” has not yet been fulfilled, it stands to reason that the things unfulfilled are still future, and must be fulfilled in the remaining “ONE WEEK,” and that that “ONE WEEK” shall be “SEVEN YEARS” long, for it must be of the same length as the other “WEEKS.” This then gives us the length of time of the reign of the “PRINCE THAT SHALL COME” (Antichrist), who we are told in verse 27 (Dan. 9:27) shall make a Covenant with the Jews for “ONE WEEK” (7 years), the last or “SEVENTIETH WEEK,” and that in the “Middle” of the WEEK he shall break the Covenant and cause the “sacrifice and oblation” that the Jews will have restored, to cease, and then the “overspreading of abominations that maketh desolate,” shall continue until the end of the WEEK. As this is just what is foretold will occur during the reign of Antichrist (2. Thess. 2:3–4) we see that the “Period” between Rev. 6:1 and Rev. 19:21, that we are now about to study, is the “Third Period” of ONE WEEK, of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” and that it is to last SEVEN YEARS. From this we see that while there was no “Time Space” between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” there is a “Time Space” between the “Second” and “Third” Periods or the 69th and 70th Week, of already (A. D. 1919) 1889 years, or the present Church Age. This was hidden so the Church should not fail to watch. See the Chart, “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.”11 Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation: A Study of the Last Prophetic Book of Holy Scripture. Philadelphia, PA: Rev. Clarence Larkin Estate, 1919. Print.
There will be a “total” of 70 sevens until God basically wraps up history and fulfills the rest of His promises that He made to the Jewish people. However, after 62 sevens and 7 sevens for a total of 69 sevens have passed, after the decree that goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem from Daniel’s time, the Anointed One or the Messiah will be “cut off.” That’s exactly what we see with Jesus’ Triumphal entry into Jerusalem. History records for us the date when King Artexerxes issued that commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in 445 B.C. So, if you take the 69 sevens or years mentioned above that need to transpire before the Messiah is cut off, and times that by 7 for each year, you get a total of 483 years. To calculate the exact number of days, you need to take the 483 years and times it by 360 (because the Jewish calendar only had 360 days for each year) and you get a grand total of 173,880 days. So, what happened 173,880 days after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Well that just happens to be the exact date Jesus made His Triumphal entry into Jerusalem where He was rejected or cut off from His people! That’s not by chance! And neither is the “event” that is presented in the next verse. 1
1 Crone, Billy. The Seals: A Panoramic View of the First Half of the Seven Year Tribulation (pp. 15-16). Get A Life Ministries. Kindle Edition.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off: These are weeks of years. Assumes the first seven weeks [a week equals seven years] have already transpired and serves to summarize the passing of the previous 69 weeks of years [483 years]. There is a gap of unknown length of time between the 69th and 70th week (the church age - age of Grace). This gap between the 69th and 70th week is the church age or age of Grace. The Hebrews use the solar calendar of 360-day years. The time span from Artaxerxes decree to rebuild the city in March 444 B.C. until Christ’s crucifixion in April A.D. 33, covered 483 prophetical years (173,880 days).
In Daniel 9:26, pay attention to the colon [;] after the word sanctuary. This colon now represents about 2,000 years so far; and at the colon it shifts focus to the seven year tribulation period.
Notice Luke 4:18-19 where Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:2 and ends verse 19 with a period. He does not complete the last half of Isaiah 61:2, because it is yet future and has lasted about two thousand years thus far (a gap).
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [<- this period] 20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [left out]
… but not for himself: Jesus died on the Cross as a substitutionary death in our place. He took on all past, present, and future sins of all humanity and nailed them to the Cross. We need only to accept this free gift of Salvation by asking Jesus into our lives, believing in faith in Him and Him alone to deliver us, and repenting and turning away from our sins and following Him. 1
1 Dennis commentary
Dennis, sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I have decided not to go through each and every point you have made in the above response. Instead, and I hope you do not mind, I have decided to attach a word document that is nothing more than a cut and paste from my commentary on the Book of Daniel. This was recently completed and I had spent 5 years working on this. It is now available on Amazon but I am in the process of revising it as we speak. There are more thoughts and grammatical corrections that must be made to the original script.
I apologize for its length but it is the entire Chapter 9 commentary - easily, the longest in the entire book.
Please let me know what you think should you decide to read it, best wishes always, Charlie
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26 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:
Well, there is no short and simple answer to your questions I can come up with. So, here are some of my well documented notes fully explained on where and how we come up with the final week, seven days representing seven years.
- The scope: Daniel 9:24 - 490 years
- The 483 years: Daniel 9:25
- The church age: Daniel 9:26
- The last 7 years: Daniels 70th week - Time of Jacob’s trouble (3.5 years)
As the events recorded in Rev. 6:1 to Rev. 19:21, are connected with the last, or “Seventieth Week,” of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS,” it is necessary that we stop here and explain what is meant by Daniel’s “Seventieth Week.”
[Dennis note: The 70th week (time of Jacob’s trouble) starts exactly when this occurs]
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years – A.O.D.) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. [emphasis added]
The Prophet Daniel had been 68 years (B.C. 538) in Babylon, and by a study of the Prophecy of Jeremiah (Jer. 25:11), he discovered that the “Seventy Years” Captivity of his people was nearing its end, and so he set his face unto the Lord, to seek by prayer and supplication (Dan. 9:3) to know the exact time of its ending, and while he was praying the Angel Gabriel appeared to enlighten him. (Dan. 9:20–23.) Daniel was concerned about the expiration of the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, and the restoration of his people to Palestine, and the rebuilding of the City of Jerusalem and of the Temple. But the Angel Gabriel came to disclose to him something more important than that. While he doubtless informed Daniel that God would fulfill His promise as to the “Seventy Years” of the Captivity, which, as we know, He did, he also made known to Daniel that that would not end the troubles of Israel. That while the Jews were to return to Jerusalem at the end of the “Seventy Years” of Captivity, there was a longer period to elapse before the Kingdom would be restored to them, a period of
“SEVENTY WEEKS.”
“SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon Thy People (Daniel’s people the Jews) and upon the Holy City (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the ‘MESSIAH THE PRINCE’ shall be SEVEN WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, but not for Himself: and the people (Roman) of the PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (Antichrist) shall destroy the City and the Sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the Covenant with many for ONE WEEK (the last or Seventieth Week): and in the midst of THE WEEK he (Antichrist) shall cause the Sacrifice and the oblations to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Christ, Matt. 24:15) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” Dan. 9:24–27.
This Vision of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” is the most important revelation, in many ways, made in the Scriptures. We are here told that this Period of “SEVENTY WEEKS” was determined upon Daniel’s PEOPLE (the Jews), and upon the HOLY CITY (Jerusalem). This is very important. It discloses the fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” have nothing to do with the Gentiles, or the Church, but only with the JEWS and JERUSALEM. It also discloses another important fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” only cover the period when the Jews are DWELLING IN THEIR OWN LAND, and does not cover the present period of their Dispersion. We are told in verse 24 that these “SEVENTY WEEKS” were determined for a SIX-FOLD purpose.
1. TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION.
It is the transgression of ISRAEL that is here referred to, and the finishing of it will be the turning away of UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. Rom. 11:26–27. The transgression of Israel has not yet come to an end, and will not until they as a Nation shall be converted.
2.TO MAKE AN END OF SINS.
The margin reads to “seal up” sins. The sins of ISRAEL. This may refer to the author of Israel’s sins—Satan, who shall at that time be “sealed up” in the Pit. Rev. 20:1–3.
3. TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY.
This refers to ISRAEL’S iniquity in the rejection of their Messiah. While atonement was made for their sin on the Cross, its application to Israel as a Nation awaits the day when they shall look on Him whom they pierced (Zech. 12:10), and a fountain shall be opened to the “House of David,” and the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanliness, Zech. 13:1, and a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be “born again” in a day. Isa. 66:8.
4. TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS.
When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has come to an end, and her sins are “sealed up,” then everlasting righteousness shall be brought in. The King will come, and the Kingdom be restored to Israel, and the Millennium will be here, and the “Knowledge of the Lord” shall cover the earth, as the waters cover the sea. Hab. 2:14.
5. TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY.
When the “Transgression of ISRAEL” has ceased and they have uninterrupted communion with God, there will no longer be any need for “Vision” or “Prophet.” It is a noteworthy fact that “Vision” and “Prophecy” has been confined to the Jewish race.
6. TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.
This probably refers to the anointing of the “Most Holy Place,” or the “Holy of Holies” of the MILLENNIAL TEMPLE, described by Ezekiel. Ezek. 41. There is great significance in this announcement; for, although the Tabernacle of Moses was anointed (Lev. 8:10), there is no mention of such a ceremony in the Consecration of either Solomon’s Temple, or the Temple of Zerubbabel, for those buildings were considered merely as continuations of the Mosaic Tabernacle. But when the King comes back and sits upon the Throne of His father David, there is to be a magnificent Temple erected, the like of which has never as yet been seen on this planet of ours. There will be no “Ark of the Covenant” with its “Mercy Seat,” in the “Most Holy Place” of the Millennial Temple (Jer. 3:16), but in its place will stand the ROYAL THRONE on which the “BRANCH,” the Messiah shall sit as a KING-PRIEST (Zech. 6:12–13), and whose anointing is here referred to.
Now as the fulfilment of this “Six-Fold” purpose of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” synchronizes with the things that shall happen at the close of this Dispensation, and that are described in Rev. 6:1; 19:21, it is clear that the last, or “SEVENTIETH WEEK” of Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks,” covers the “TIME PERIOD” of Rev. 6:1; 19:21, and confirms the claim that that “Period” is Jewish and has nothing to do with the Church. To prove this it is only necessary to outline Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks.”
The “Seventy Weeks” are divided into “THREE PERIODS” of 7 Weeks, and 62 Weeks, and 1 Week. They cover the time from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem, which was the 14th day of the month Nisan (March) B. C. 445, to the Second Stage (The Revelation) of the Second Coming of Christ. The “First Period,” 7 WEEKS, refers to the time required to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, which was 49 years, thus giving us the “Key” to the meaning of the word “WEEK,” for if 7 WEEKS are equal to 49 YEARS, then 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS. Now we are told that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (B. C. 445) unto the “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” shall be 7 WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS, or 69 WEEKS, or, if 1 WEEK is equal to 7 YEARS, 7 × 69 or 483 YEARS. Now Jesus, as “MESSIAH THE PRINCE,” rode in triumph into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, April 2, A. D. 30. The difference in time between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30 is 475 years, but, as we have seen, 69 WEEKS equal 483 years, a difference of 8 years. How are we to explain this difference?
The 475 years between B. C. 445 and A. D. 30, are Julian or Astronomical years of 365¼ days each, but when we reduce them to Calendar years of 360 days each, the year used in the Scriptures, we find that we have exactly 483 years of 360 days each. This proves that there was no break between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” and that the prophecy that there should be 69 WEEKS to the coming of “MESSIAH THE PRINCE” was literally fulfilled. Now as 69 WEEKS of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” have already expired, and all that was prophesied to occur during those “SEVENTY WEEKS” has not yet been fulfilled, it stands to reason that the things unfulfilled are still future, and must be fulfilled in the remaining “ONE WEEK,” and that that “ONE WEEK” shall be “SEVEN YEARS” long, for it must be of the same length as the other “WEEKS.” This then gives us the length of time of the reign of the “PRINCE THAT SHALL COME” (Antichrist), who we are told in verse 27 (Dan. 9:27) shall make a Covenant with the Jews for “ONE WEEK” (7 years), the last or “SEVENTIETH WEEK,” and that in the “Middle” of the WEEK he shall break the Covenant and cause the “sacrifice and oblation” that the Jews will have restored, to cease, and then the “overspreading of abominations that maketh desolate,” shall continue until the end of the WEEK. As this is just what is foretold will occur during the reign of Antichrist (2. Thess. 2:3–4) we see that the “Period” between Rev. 6:1 and Rev. 19:21, that we are now about to study, is the “Third Period” of ONE WEEK, of Daniel’s “SEVENTY WEEKS” and that it is to last SEVEN YEARS. From this we see that while there was no “Time Space” between the “First” and “Second” Periods of the “Seventy Weeks,” there is a “Time Space” between the “Second” and “Third” Periods or the 69th and 70th Week, of already (A. D. 1919) 1889 years, or the present Church Age. This was hidden so the Church should not fail to watch. See the Chart, “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.”11 Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation: A Study of the Last Prophetic Book of Holy Scripture. Philadelphia, PA: Rev. Clarence Larkin Estate, 1919. Print.
There will be a “total” of 70 sevens until God basically wraps up history and fulfills the rest of His promises that He made to the Jewish people. However, after 62 sevens and 7 sevens for a total of 69 sevens have passed, after the decree that goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem from Daniel’s time, the Anointed One or the Messiah will be “cut off.” That’s exactly what we see with Jesus’ Triumphal entry into Jerusalem. History records for us the date when King Artexerxes issued that commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in 445 B.C. So, if you take the 69 sevens or years mentioned above that need to transpire before the Messiah is cut off, and times that by 7 for each year, you get a total of 483 years. To calculate the exact number of days, you need to take the 483 years and times it by 360 (because the Jewish calendar only had 360 days for each year) and you get a grand total of 173,880 days. So, what happened 173,880 days after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Well that just happens to be the exact date Jesus made His Triumphal entry into Jerusalem where He was rejected or cut off from His people! That’s not by chance! And neither is the “event” that is presented in the next verse. 1
1 Crone, Billy. The Seals: A Panoramic View of the First Half of the Seven Year Tribulation (pp. 15-16). Get A Life Ministries. Kindle Edition.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off: These are weeks of years. Assumes the first seven weeks [a week equals seven years] have already transpired and serves to summarize the passing of the previous 69 weeks of years [483 years]. There is a gap of unknown length of time between the 69th and 70th week (the church age - age of Grace). This gap between the 69th and 70th week is the church age or age of Grace. The Hebrews use the solar calendar of 360-day years. The time span from Artaxerxes decree to rebuild the city in March 444 B.C. until Christ’s crucifixion in April A.D. 33, covered 483 prophetical years (173,880 days).
In Daniel 9:26, pay attention to the colon [;] after the word sanctuary. This colon now represents about 2,000 years so far; and at the colon it shifts focus to the seven year tribulation period.
Notice Luke 4:18-19 where Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:2 and ends verse 19 with a period. He does not complete the last half of Isaiah 61:2, because it is yet future and has lasted about two thousand years thus far (a gap).
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [<- this period] 20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; [left out]
… but not for himself: Jesus died on the Cross as a substitutionary death in our place. He took on all past, present, and future sins of all humanity and nailed them to the Cross. We need only to accept this free gift of Salvation by asking Jesus into our lives, believing in faith in Him and Him alone to deliver us, and repenting and turning away from our sins and following Him. 1
1 Dennis commentary
Dennis, thank you very much for your detailed and clear response!
There are only a few interpretations I disagree with … however, they still are all important to us.
I will respond to this excellent post later - do not have the time right now…
Very nice again, Charlie
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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:
Admittedly, my thoughts may not be accurate, but the following is how I currently view it. The Bible alludes to several time gaps in various dispensations or covenant theology. I will list them if requested. Are we all on the same page, using the Jewish lunar calendar of 360-day years? Using math, the Sanhedrin and Pharisees should have calculated and known the exact day their Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey to present Himself on Palm Sunday.
Likewise, those Jews and Christians who survive the two halves of the tribulation (1260 + 1260 = 2,520 days), or seven years, should know to the day of Jesus’s 2nd Coming. The Rapture has always been imminent, with no signs or anything preceding it. Therefore, I surmise the tribulation lasts precisely 2,520 days, then the Lord’s feet hit the ground at the Mount of Olives.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Daniel 12:12)
Extensions to the 2,520 days seem to be a gap before the rod of iron millennial reign of Christ begins, the official inauguration of Christ as King, to set up the Kingdom of Heaven the Jews initially rejected. Several things must be dealt with in this interim before Christ’s reign.
The holy land will be a mess from all the tribulation carnage, sin, and judgments and must be cleansed and purified. The image of the Beast, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet must be dealt with. Satan will be chained and cast out for a thousand years. The sheep and goat judgment of the nations must take place, etc.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:31-34)
The sheep will be blessed and allowed to enter the millennium; the goats will be killed off.
As I implied, we all have different hermeneutics and interpretations of unfulfilled prophecy.
I CANNOT speakw about Revelation but I can discuss Daniel.
If you would like to discuss the “gaps” as you mentioned above (with respect to Daniel), or any time element within Daniel or any other interpretation within Daniel I would be interested…
Because so much has been written on Daniel, and it is such a complicated and difficult book to interpret, we might take one interpretation at a time. But keep in mind that it is difficult to address any one interpretation without having to lean on others that support them.
If I may, where do you get the 7 year tribulation period?
Not sure I understand where the 2520 days comes from (in your response).
In calculating any of the time elements in Daniel, I believe it is necessary to identify what is being calculated. What is the event or purpose for a given time element in Daniel.
But most importantly, Daniel is about the Messiah and His plan of salvation. It is the most unbelievable time in our history and this is why and where these events are being prophesied- in the Book of Daniel. If not in Daniel, then where?
Thanks ..
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7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:
Firstly, that is not even debatable. everyone in the know, knows its all END TIME EVENTS.
No, everyone contends these verses speak to the end of times… that is the truth. But it is NOT the correct interpretations of the book of Daniel. Daniel was written for the Jews and His holy city Jerusalem. Almost all of Daniel is about the restoration of His people and the city- the 490 years. The most important event in the history of mankind is being discussed and prophesied in Daniel.
7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:Secondly, it was not something Jesus had to fulfill, the 6 steps were about Israel, not Jesus. Israel needed to repent, not Jesus. The promise was already in use by Abraham and others, that's why they will be in Heaven, so anyone saying Jesus had to fulfill that before Israel could repent are just wrong. Thus the 6 goals were about Israel, not Jesus.
I have to disagree with you. Only the Messiah could fulfill the 6 requirements. They were His God given elements to complete during the last week.
7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:Those 6 requirements have nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with Israel.
Please tell me how Israel could possibly fulfill them.
7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:Israel fulfilled nothing, they n ever repented, they will do so during the END TINE 70th week. The who reason it went from 70 years to 490 or 7 x 70 is because they never repented, kicking in the TIMED SEVEN laws of Leviticus.
Israel n ever repented as a Nation. EVER.
Not sure I understand all you are meaning to say here, however, Israel would be allowed to return beginning in 457BC. This also was the beginning of the final 4th Great Jubilee cycle. They both are 490 years in duration. Israel would restore the physical elements that were completely destroyed by the Babylonians. They would also restore the Levitical ceremonies and the 7 Feast days that had not taken place due to the Babylonian destruction. The entire prophecy is to restore EVERYTHING that was destroyed by the Babylonians.
God would use this restoration prophecy to bring in the Messiah at the beginning of the last week. He arrived after the 7 and 62 weeks were completed (69 weeks). First, 9:24 mentions 70 weeks are determined…. To anoint the Most Holy. Meaning Jesus would be anointed WITHIN those 70 weeks. Verse 9:25 says there would be 7 and 62 weeks… and THEN THE MESSIAH- meaning He could and did come AFTER the 69th week was over. There is only one week remaining in the prophecy and this is when:1) The Messiah is anointed in the Jordan on the first day of the last week,
2) This will begin His ministry,
3) This is the only possible week He will be “cut off in the midst of the week,”4) He is the only one that can restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary- He represents the restoration of the Ark - the first piece of furniture taken and the last piece restored,
5) In 9:27 He will “confirm the New Covenant- NOT A 7 year covenant but it means He will confirm the NC DURING THIS SAME PERIOD OF THE LAST WEEK OF THE PROPHECY,
6) In 9:27, He will bring an end to sacrificing and offerings- meaning, His death as the Passover Lamb would do away with any further need for animal sacrifices or any offerings,
This is ALL about the Messiah not Israel. This was all planned from the beginning of time- the Jews would reject their Messiah and they s would begin His church. The Jews failed to preach the One true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the Gentiles. Now, all will able to learn and accept the One true God.
7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:WRONG, Jesus has zero to do with the Prophesy, it is/was about Israel. Jesus died on the very last day of the 69th Week.
Please see above. It specifically tells us He will come AFTER 7 and 62 weeks!
There is only the 70th week remaining…7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:That is el correcto.
The Prophesy is about Israel, not Jesus. That is where you guys get OFF-TRACKED.
And thus you are not ever going to understand these numbers my friend. By the way, the 2300 Evening and Morning sacrifices are equal to 1150 days, since there was an Evening AND Morning sacrifice each day.
No, the 2300 days represents the time from the first day of His ministry (when He was anointed in the Jordan) to (through) the final Passover that would have taken place DURING the last week of the prophecy. Jesus would attend His first Passover exactly 6 months after He was anointed, thus, the 7th Passover would occur exactly 6 months BEFORE the end of the last week of the prophecy (set aside week). Meaning, verse 8:13 tells us there will be 2300 days until the Sanctuary would be cleansed. The ONLY one that can cleanse the Sanctuary is God, thus, at the conclusion of the 7th Passover, which was within this “set aside” final week, it would be cleansed. Therefore, this time period is calculated as 6.5 years X 360 days per year or 2340 total days (His start date of His ministry to the last Passover). However, because He not only came to serve as our Passover Lamb, He also came to be our High Priest.
Under the Levitical laws, BOTH the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb MUST BE PURE AND FREE OF BLEMISH. Jesus would honor His Father’s laws and MUST ALSO be cleansed. And He was! The day after He was anointed, He went directly into the desert to be tempted by the devil for 40 days. Thus, the 2340 days calculated above would have to be reduced by the “cleansing time” of 40 days leaving exactly 2300 days.
The Scriptures are all about the Messiah and His plan of salvation / restoration for mankind. The Jews were chosen to play a major part in His plan but they failed… but His plan would not be destroyed by their failure to preach the one true God to the world. And it was always in His plan they would reject their Messiah and be punished for 2000 years.
God will return to His people after the “time of the Gentiles.” After God opens their eyes that He was / is their Messiah, they will preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus just as Paul, John, and Matthew did after the cross. Then, the Messiah will return.
As I mentioned, I have no interest in arguing with you or anyone’s details or interpretations regarding how these verses in Daniel speak to the end times. I know they do not and it was only after my 5 years of looking at Daniel and all of “today’s accepted interpretations” did I come away realizing there was absolutely no consistency in their incomplete interpretations. So, I decided to try and unpack Daniel using “today’s accepted interpretations” as a starting point and asking questions as I moved through each chapter.
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On 5/26/2024 at 4:29 PM, CaptWalker said:
Well I've heard the whole explanation before about this so-called "days to years" teaching but it was something I just couldn't understand as far as the calculations go?? And also whether it is even a legit teaching that can actually be documented and/or proved anywhere in the Bible, other than simply saying days must he equal to to years, just because it makes sense to YOU, or to whoever first came up with this "theory"?
Anyway just wondering if anyone could finally explain this in a way where it is more easily understood even by those who are not very good at math??🤔
Before one turns to their math books to interpret what these time elements mean, it is necessary to first decide if they, and others in Daniel, speak about the “end times” or they speak about the most important events in the history of mankind - the coming of the Messiah in the first century and His fulfilling of the 6 requirements given Him by His Father. They were to be fulfilled in the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The Jews were given the first 69 weeks to restore all the physical items after they returned from Babylon. This also included reinstating the Sabbatical cycles, the Levitical ceremonies, the 7 Feast days, etc. And they completed their God given task to restore the city, the Temple, etc BY the end of the 69th week.
The ONLY item that was still to be restored could not be fulfilled by the Jews- it was the Presence of God in the form of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden away by Jeremiah before the Babylonian captivity.
Which is why the last week or 7 years of the prophecy was “set aside” for the coming Messiah. And Jesus literally arrived on the first day of the last week to begin His ministry. He would serve as the restoration of the Ark - the Presence of God. Now, EVERYTHING was completely restored as it was prior to the Babylonian destruction.
Now, today’s accepted interpretations may differ a little regarding the details, but ALL contend these time elements as well as the last 7 years of the prophecy are still to take place in the future.
Oh, I did say ALL, didn’t I? Yes, all! Consequently, none of these time elements are interpreted to speak of the Messiah and the first century.
However, I have a very different interpretation on these important time elements and more than another 40 or so interpretations in Daniel that are NOT “end time” events.
I believe within this short thread there are at least 4 very important time elements mentioned:
1) time, times and 1/2 time
2) 2300 days
3) 1290 days
4) 1335 days.
There are a few other time elements in Daniel but they have yet to be brought up.
So, for me, this topic or discussion is not whether RM has the correct interpretation or another member has the better understanding. Again, ALL folks studying Daniel believe these are “end time” events. I can not address their interpretations!
What I can speak of is that my (new) interpretations treat these as events that take place almost entirely in the first century AND they are ONLY referring to the Messiah during His first advent. Remember, Daniel is writing to the JEWS, the city of Jerusalem (its restoration) AND the coming Messiah- it is not an end time prophecy book (the book is dominated by the 70 weeks of years prophecy of chapter 9).
Consequently, with the exception of #1 above - time, times and 1/2 time, #2 and # 3 speak of the time of the Messiah- 1st century. The last time element - # 4, speaks directly to the return of the Messiah- this IS a true “end time” prophecy.
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2 minutes ago, NConly said:
https://jeremiahstudybible.com/Second_Chronicles/seventy-years-captivity/
fairly good commentary imo
You are right... that is a nice commentary, thank you.
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24 minutes ago, WilliamL said:
God punished the Israelites in many other ways for their sins. But the land gained no relief from those punishments. So this punishment was to make up for that lack.
70 years of land sabbaths x 7 years/sabbath = 490 years, roughly the period of time, depending on ones chronology, from the time that the Davidic Kingdom was founded until it was extinguished from the land.
Oh, I didn’t think of it that way. That is very good! He punished the Jews for their disobedience and idolatry with the destruction of the city, the Temple, etc., as well as the loss of life, AND He punished them specifically for their failure to honor the land Sabbath by separating them from their land for 70 years- giving the land complete rest.
God would incorporate this specific punishment into His grand plan of salvation / restoration for His people and mankind within the 70 weeks of years prophecy.
Makes total sense - thank you… I needed that!
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5 hours ago, NConly said:
Ezk 36
16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Thank you very much! This certainly does speak to the punishment of His people for their disobedience and idolatry.
Please consider this question:
Is it safe to say that those verses speak to the house of Israel, the northern tribes which were destroyed and scattered by the Assyrians as opposed to Judah, who would be subject to the 70 year period of punishment in Babylon?
Not sure if both the north and the south kingdoms were NOT guilty of the same transgressions but the 70 year punishment for Judah was based on the land Sabbath transgression only..
Thanks again and I look forward to your thoughts!
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Jeremiah was telling his fellow Israelites that, unless they repented and returned to their God, they would be destroyed and many taken captive by the Babylonians.
This went on for more than 20 years and, unless I am mistaken, the Israelites were not only guilty of failing to honor the land Sabbath, but they have turned away from their God and even idolatry for many years.
If that is true, then can someone help me understand why the punishment period of 70 years was only based on the failure to honor the land Sabbath? It would seem that disobedience and idolatry in the many other ways of life would have been more hurtful to God.
Look forward to anyone’s thoughts… literally just came to mind.
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1 hour ago, tatwo said:
Yahshua the Messiah...and most of those who study these prophetic writings believe similarly...though I have heard some say angels, strange creatures, and that they have no idea...the rest understandably...are not concerned about it. In part I would agree that Yahshua the Messiah is certainly in view here…though I am of the opinion…this alone…is not the “fulfillment” of this “prophetic vision” Charlie. No…and the scriptures reveal otherwise as well.
I chose those examples…because I know you have studied them deeply and written extensively about them as well. I thought they may provide an opportunity for me to share with you…a seemingly hungry son of God…something that I have learned in them…leading us to something greater.
Those passages have been written since Daniel (roughly 620 to 536 BC) penned them while in captivity in Babylon…they and their meanings have not changed since. The Spirit of God…had Daniel…inscribe the words that…God wanted written…and He meant what He “said.”
It’s clear that Daniel himself did not understand everything he “heard, seen and wrote.” In fact Daniel himself said the same Ch. 12…”As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" This can serve as one example but it does not stop there…the one speaking to Daniel responded…“He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.”
My focus here at this point and at this time…is “not” the revealing, meaning or understanding of what was said and who the "man above the water is"...here Charlie…though we may get to that. I would like to focus upon 2 things here…1. Daniel "heard and wrote" but could not understand…and 2. Though he heard them and likely wrote them down as well…he Daniel…was not granted access to the understanding...for good reason.
Here is the reason…for these “words” were to stay “a secret…hidden in God” and additionally they were kept that way under the…“seal”…of almighty God.
This is interesting and a sufficient point of contention for most…meaning…that until the “seal” of God is...broke the “understanding” the “prophetic meaning” of these “words”…which literally anyone has access to…incidentally…which essentially is how it has been since the day Daniel wrote them…that...until that which has been sealed by God…is unsealed by God…though untold numbers have read these words over the millennia…there will be no Truth in understanding or revelation for them…until the “end age.”
Then there is the 'revealing of what was hidden" and the issue of the removal of the "seal."
I'll continue...
Tatwo...:)
Very nice!
What immediately came to mind after reading your response is two things:
1) twice in Daniel he is told to seal up or shut up the words found … until the end.
a) I firmly believe the first time it is mentioned it does not refer to the “end times.” Instead, it refers to the time of the end of the most important prophecy in the history of mankind. That is, the prophecies specifically speak to a time well after Daniel - the end of the 490 years (70 weeks of years prophecy) when the Jews have completed their obligations to restore Jerusalem after the Babylonian destruction, AND, the arrival of the Messiah on the first day of the 70th week.
b) And I certainly agree with you that Daniel is acting as a “scribe” here in he is recording only what God allows him to see.
c) Further, I also agree Daniel has very little understanding of what these prophetic verses are meaning… certainly, he could not possibly understand the coming Messiah in the form of a man and then his God being crucified by his people.
d) I do not believe God allowed Daniel to understand these horrible prophecies- the cross, etc. God specifically mentioned how He loved Daniel and Daniel had been put through a life of issues (many life threatening) and he never disobeyed his God and lost faith in Him. Consequently, I don’t believe God would allow Daniel to understand such things as the cross… He saved him from that knowledge.
e) In chapter 12 there is the second mention of the words being sealed or shut up. I believe this refers to the true “end times,” and not the end of the prophecy.
f) However, at no time - either the first mention that speaks to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy or the “true end time” reference in chapter 12 is meant to tell us these words are secret or will not be understood. No, God’s words are made to be understood - the sealing up or shutting up is meant to convey not secrecy or not allowing one to understand but to deal or shut up because they are complete, finished. The prophecies have now been given in their entirety, they are complete, and there is nothing that will be added to it.
g) Again, Daniel did not understand the prophecies and the Jews at the time of Christ did not understand them, but we certainly realize they spoke of the coming Messiah. Therefore, both “end time” prophecies in Daniel do not speak of the same “end time period,” but they can and have been understood after the cross.
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19 minutes ago, tatwo said:
Generally speaking...the religious folks which are the ones likely...of anyone...to read and study your commentary...typically don't like anything new. They like what they like...they don't like to have to change...this goes for the leaders and the congregations.
Most of what these folks believe today...was from 100...200...500 years ago or more...the general assembly of the religious are raised on "yesterdays manna."
On top of that and in general...they are blind and deaf to ever emerging revelation as it disturbs the "norm." Yes there are those few who hear the voice of the Shephard and will follow Him...however...typically and generally in the religious structure very little changes in terms of doctrine or belief structure.
Additionally their "church mother" has worked hard to make them comfortable in their unrealized blindness and deafness. As for their leaders...well the Lord called the religious temple leaders of His day..."fools and blind."
For those of us who have been called to see, hear and bring the message for this hour...His bread of life and living water is food to our spirit man Charlie.
Tatwo...:)
As I have mentioned before, you have a gift in communication! Very nice.
Charlie -
1 hour ago, tatwo said:
Well...we may be able to go there and I will try to show you from the scripture but it requires revelation directly from the Holy Spirit (Yahshua) directly into the mind of ones spirit...provided one has the Holy Spirit. Do you have an "active" spiritual existence Charlie?
Let me take some time and contemplate the best way to go about this.
For starters...answer me this if you can and so desire Charlie...who is the man spoken of by Daniel in chapter 10:5-7 and 12:6-7? And do you see them as the same man?
"I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! (6) His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. (7) And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves." Dan 10:5-7 NKJV
"And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" (7) Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished." Dan 12:6-7 NKJV
Tatwo...:)
I believe both verses are referring to the Messiah.
I look forward to seeing how / why you brought these two verses into this… appreciate it! Charlie
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7 minutes ago, farouk said:
Just an FYI; please ignore if you prefer.
Oh, okay. No, I do not have any tattoos. Charlie
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1 hour ago, tatwo said:
As I look at what your saying about the Lord and Matthew 24 I do not necessarily see them as new...you have done a good job here...and I have been enlightened to be sure...yet your "new interpretations" are incomplete...which is normal in regards to ever increasing arc of prophecy.
So it will be interesting to see how you respond to the "potential" of a more complete interpretation if submitted to you?
From the perspective of a normal church existence...yes your interpretation is very likely new and will be utterly rejected...they just don't have any option...they have rejected Him.
Tatwo...;)
Not sure I follow here… sorry. Why don’t they have any option? People can decide to consider a new interpretation and decide to accept or reject it….
I certainly understand these many new interpretations in my commentary will / may be rejected … again, most of Daniel has been thrown far into the future… and has still not happened - because they really apply to the first coming of the Messiah.
Thanks, Charlie
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4 minutes ago, farouk said:
Hi @Charlie744 FYI............poll, above, started........
Did you intend to send this to me ? Thanks, Charlie
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52 minutes ago, farouk said:
I do think Matthew 24 (and indeed Luke 21) are about the Great Tribulation after the church has gone.
I will have to go back to 24 and 21 to read them in their entirety. If I remember (somewhat), there were / are 3 questions that were asked of Christ. I don’t believe He answered one of the three that was asked of end time return. I can’t remember the second one but the remaining question concerned / spoke to the AOD… can you please tell me if these AOD (and obviously the definition of the AOD) are end time events or the time of the Messiah?
Thanks so much, Charlie
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2 minutes ago, tatwo said:
Ok now that you have actually "spoke" it..."I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event." This is something I thought you were "saying"...but could not find that you had come out and "said" it.
It's both Charlie...in the immediate time frame in which He spoke it to the "disciples"...as you have noted...it is clear that He was most certainly referencing the time of His sacrifice on the cross...and the next 30-40 years of the destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and the temple...simultaneous with the initial stages of the Body of Christ having been introduce into creation.
It...however...is also a prophetic statement concerning the end of this age of creation. This can only be understood with a full revelation from the Holy Spirit...of the entirety of what was wrought by the cross...most have missed it. Because they are content with going to heaven in a rapture.
Tatwo...:)
Please help me with your understanding that these verses also have an end time application.
Certainly, the cross is applicable to all generations after it occurred, but I am assuming you might be seeing a specific end time application that I am not seeing or am aware of…
Thanks, Charlie
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20 hours ago, tatwo said:
You seemingly summarize your conclusion in three parts as follows…
#1
So your focus is the timing of the cross…not on the possibility that the cross would not take place.
Charlie…“We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.” Who would actually put this in “writing?” What are you thinking?
#2
Of course God knows the outcome before He creates the thing…I see your point here Charlie…and I agree with these two sentences…because it came forth from Lord to Daniel.
#3
I hear you saying…if He had not been crucified at any point before the end of the 70th week there would be no accepted offering that could atone for sin. Again…your focus is on the “timing”…not whether or not the atonement would be offered and accepted.
You are pointing to His death at “3.5 year mark” versus the full 7 years…leaving the last 3.5 years as the “Unless those days had been cut short” which is represented as the midpoint of the 7 year period of the 70th week.
In the context of your scenario here as you are presenting it…who are the elect?
Additionally, what actually do you understand to have been wrought with the cross?
What about those last 3.5 years Charlie?
Tatwo...:)
Oh, did not complete your last question about the 3.5 years…
There are two parties to the 70 weeks of years prophecy: the Messiah, and His people.
His people are given a section / period of time carved out of the 70 to complete their part in the restoration of the city, the Temple, etc. And they did complete their part.
The only piece of the restoration from the Babylonian destruction that could NOT be completed by the Jews was the Presence of God (Ark) in the Sanctuary. Only the coming Messiah could fulfill this part… and He did by arriving on the 1st day of the last week of the prophecy.
The Jews had no further obligation in the restoration process… Jesus also fulfilled His part in the restoration process, but He still had to complete 9:24.
Jesus would fulfill 9:24 despite being cut off in the midst of the week. He did not have to physically continue to the last day of the last week to fulfill His God given mission. 9:24 was completed at the cross in 3.5 years of the 7.
Everything that was to take place within the 70 weeks were fulfilled. But there is only one “open item,” if you will - because the Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah, it would stop the counting of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle which was timed to perfectly match the period of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The cross “in the midst of the week” prevented the completion by 3.5 years. This must be completed before the Messiah can return.
Thus, God would place the completion of this 3.5 year period AFTER the time of the Gentiles. He would open their eyes and recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior and preach the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus to the world for 3.5 years. Then, the return of Jesus. This will also complete the 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle.
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This comment is MOT saying WE can pay for our own sin, it is saying (meant to say) that WITHOUT the cross we would HAVE to pay for our own sins (our own blood), AND THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE. Only the blood of the Lamb can forgive our sins.
Therefore, IF GOD did not go to the cross (said in another way, “unless those days (last week of the prophecy), were shortened (He was “cut off”), NO flesh would be saved (again, without the cross, NO ONE COULD OR WOULD BE SAVED).
20 hours ago, tatwo said:#2
Of course God knows the outcome before He creates the thing…I see your point here Charlie…and I agree with these two sentences…because it came forth from Lord to Daniel.
#3
I hear you saying…if He had not been crucified at any point before the end of the 70th week there would be no accepted offering that could atone for sin. Again…your focus is on the “timing”…not whether or not the atonement would be offered and accepted.
Yes, without the cross there can be no salvation for us. But, this is His offering that will be accepted or rejected. He will never force Himself on us.
Not too sure about your comment- sorry. For me, the timing of the cross is clear - “in the midst of the week.” This is 3.5 years into the last 7 years and thus, this week was “shortened.”
I believe Jesus is not speaking to an end time event but His sacrifice on the cross. Same with His sayings in Matthew, Mark and Luke. We can see the cross from 3 different perspectives.
Of course I realize that these and so many more of my “new interpretations” significantly differ than those that are “today’s accepted interpretations,” but one of the most important errors in “today’s accepted interpretations,” (imo) is that, throughout Daniel, so many important verses / prophecies, etc., are not properly interpreted and have all been thrown into the future.
The book of Daniel is about His plan to restore His people back to Jerusalem (70 weeks of years prophecy) with the most important event in the history of mankind- the restoration of the final piece of furniture in the Sanctuary- the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah. And He will incorporate His sacrifice within this “plan of restoration” the cross which will take place DURING the last week. Thus, verses 9:24-27 speak of the Messiah and the events that are caused by the cross.
20 hours ago, tatwo said:You are pointing to His death at “3.5 year mark” versus the full 7 years…leaving the last 3.5 years as the “Unless those days had been cut short” which is represented as the midpoint of the 7 year period of the 70th week.
Yes.
20 hours ago, tatwo said:In the context of your scenario here as you are presenting it…who are the elect?
The “elect” are those who will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
20 hours ago, tatwo said:Additionally, what actually do you understand to have been wrought with the cross?
Please help me with this question. The cross has determined and identified the only path to salvation. This event split time in half, it will split mankind in half - those who will accept or reject Him and find salvation…
20 hours ago, tatwo said:What about those last 3.5 years Charlie?
Tatwo...:
Not sure what you are looking for here. The last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy was “set aside” for the Messiah to :
1) complete the restoration of the destruction of Jerusalem, and all the things that were completely destroyed by the Babylonians. The Ark was the first piece of furniture taken away (Jeremiah), and it would be the last piece restored in the form of the Messiah,
2) He arrived exactly on time - on the first day of the 70th week of the prophecy and was given by His Father the 6 requirements to complete (9:24).
3) Despite the timing of the cross (which was always within God’s plan of salvation), He would fulfill 9:24. Thus, “unless, even though those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved.”
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55 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:
What?..... wait..... What????
We could pay for our sins through our own blood?
Brother..... you really need to explain what you are saying with this statement.
I won't comment on it until you do.
Hey Joe! Great to hear from you again.
No, No and another No! I am NOT saying we CAN pay for our own sins, I am saying that IF JESUS DID NOT GO TO THE CROSS WE EOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR OUR OWN SINS …. And that is IMPOSSIBLE!
Consequently, because God’s plan of salvation INCLUDED the cross, our sins CAN BE FORGIVEN.
Therefore, Matthew 24:22 should be interpreted that the last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy WERE SHORTENED (He was cut off exactly 3.5 years of the last week), and because He went to the cross BEFORE the end of the last week, we could be saved.
Otherwise , without the cross, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.
Charlie
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1 hour ago, farouk said:
I think Matthew 24 is about after the church has gone.
Well, I can assure you that your interpretation is in keeping with “today’s accepted interpretations.” So, you are in good company.
But, all I would ask is for you and others to give this new interpretation your consideration… that is all. I feel very good with it. Thanks so much, Charlie
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2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:
Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret.
Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming.
Here are the thoughts behind this:
1) Probably the most important term to discuss is the AOD, or the Abomination that causes desolation. This is always attributed to an end time event surrounding a “mythical anti-Christ figure.”
This term is first mentioned in Daniel and I believe it refers to one specific event in the history of mankind- the most horrific and incomprehensible evil transgression that could be committed against our God- the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah.
This “abomination” is the basis for God to turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). This transgression surpassed their earlier disobedience and idolatry that resulted in their complete destruction of Jerusalem and their 70 year captivity in Babylon. This transgression (abomination), would now cause God to become completely “desolate” to His people. And this is exactly what has taken place since 70 AD.
So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke.
In Matthew, Jesus references Daniel and says, “when you see the AOD STANDING in the holy place…
In Mark, Jesus references Daniel and says. “When you see the AOD standing where it ought not be…
In Luke, Jesus does not use the word “abomination” nor does he mention the book of Daniel, but he does refer to the time of the coming “desolation.”
All three are speaking of the same event and time in history.
In Matthew, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will be found STANDING in the holy place. Matthew speaks to the Jews and speaks about Jesus as a King, their Messiah. It is EXPECTED to find Him STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE- that is where Kings belong.
In Mark, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will found STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT BE. Mark speaks about Jesus, not as a king, but as a servant. Everything in Mark speaks of Jesus as helping, serving, healing His people. Thus, Mark is telling us this same “AOD” should not be found standing in the holy place- SERVANTS DO NOT BELONG IN THE HOLY PLACE.
But in Luke, there is a departure (seemingly) from the way this event (AOD) is presented. Here, Luke focuses on Jerusalem and the word “desolate.” Now, as a result of the AOD (Cross), Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, THEN, desolation is near (not an end time event either). This would take place in 70 AD, and as a result of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. Luke does not speak of Jesus as a king or a servant, but as a MAN. Consequently, no MAN could be found to “cause” complete desolation between God and His people. No MAN could be found to “cause” a complete destruction of Jerusalem and His people. Thus, this MAN is being mentioned as a time marker revealing the beginning of the time when God would cause a complete desolation between Him and His people (70 AD).
That is how I found these verses to fit with the new interpretations of Daniel.
Finally, a very different interpretation of Matthew 24:22, which is also tied to the Daniel prophecies might be considered:
24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved….
Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming). As mentioned, Jesus arrived on the first day of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The first 69 weeks are completed and Jerusalem, His people, all the Levitical ceremonies and practices have been reinstated, and the Sabbatical cycles are also being honored. This is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy- The things (physical and spiritual) that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction.
Everything was fully restored by the end of the 69th week - these “things” were an obligation and commitment of the Jews.
There is only one item that had yet to be restored- and this can only be restored by God. Thus, on the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would be both baptized by John and anointed by God in the Jordan.
This would begin the last 7 years of the prophecy, the beginning of His ministry and in 9:24, God would reveal those requirements that He had given to His Son to complete DURING this final “Holy Week.”
But of course He would be rejected and crucified exactly 3.5 years within the last week (in the midst of the week). However, His sacrifice would pay the price for ALL of our sins should we place our faith in Him.
Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.
His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)… had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.
Consequently, most of Daniel speaks to the Messiah (first coming), not the end times.
Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie
Oh, I forgot to mention the following:
As I mentioned, the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks of years prophecy represented all the physical and spiritual elements that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction. This period would restore also restore all the elements (pieces of furniture) found within the Sanctuary- again, they would be restored by the Jews.
However, the one and only piece of furniture that HAD TO BE RESTORED after the Babylonian destruction was the very first piece of furniture taken away. Prior to the Babylonian invasion, Jeremiah had removed the Ark of the Covenant from the Sanctuary. This was the first piece of furniture removed and would be the last piece of furniture restored. It would be restored in the exact reverse order they were taken. Consequently, the Ark of the Covenant would be restored in the form of the Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. Only the Messiah could restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary. The last week of the prophecy was “set aside” for the Messiah to not only restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary but also to fulfill 9:24. And He did!
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16 hours ago, farouk said:
John 16.33 is about the general principle of tribulation, through which all believers go, but we can know that the Lord Jesus has overcome the world.
Matthew 24.21 is about a unique future event.
Thanks for the references! Matthew 24 is such an interesting and important series of verses that have been discussed since the time of the Messiah. They are indeed quite difficult to interpret.
Almost all commentators agree they speak of the end times, and that may just be the case, but during my study of Daniel, I think they might speak to the time of the Messiah- His first coming.
Here are the thoughts behind this:
1) Probably the most important term to discuss is the AOD, or the Abomination that causes desolation. This is always attributed to an end time event surrounding a “mythical anti-Christ figure.”
This term is first mentioned in Daniel and I believe it refers to one specific event in the history of mankind- the most horrific and incomprehensible evil transgression that could be committed against our God- the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah.
This “abomination” is the basis for God to turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). This transgression surpassed their earlier disobedience and idolatry that resulted in their complete destruction of Jerusalem and their 70 year captivity in Babylon. This transgression (abomination), would now cause God to become completely “desolate” to His people. And this is exactly what has taken place since 70 AD.
So, how does this tie into Matthew? It ties into Matthew, Mark and Luke.
In Matthew, Jesus references Daniel and says, “when you see the AOD STANDING in the holy place…
In Mark, Jesus references Daniel and says. “When you see the AOD standing where it ought not be…
In Luke, Jesus does not use the word “abomination” nor does he mention the book of Daniel, but he does refer to the time of the coming “desolation.”
All three are speaking of the same event and time in history.
In Matthew, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will be found STANDING in the holy place. Matthew speaks to the Jews and speaks about Jesus as a King, their Messiah. It is EXPECTED to find Him STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE- that is where Kings belong.
In Mark, it is Jesus (abomination of the cross) who will found STANDING WHERE HE OUGHT NOT BE. Mark speaks about Jesus, not as a king, but as a servant. Everything in Mark speaks of Jesus as helping, serving, healing His people. Thus, Mark is telling us this same “AOD” should not be found standing in the holy place- SERVANTS DO NOT BELONG IN THE HOLY PLACE.
But in Luke, there is a departure (seemingly) from the way this event (AOD) is presented. Here, Luke focuses on Jerusalem and the word “desolate.” Now, as a result of the AOD (Cross), Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, THEN, desolation is near (not an end time event either). This would take place in 70 AD, and as a result of the Jews rejecting and crucifying their Messiah. Luke does not speak of Jesus as a king or a servant, but as a MAN. Consequently, no MAN could be found to “cause” complete desolation between God and His people. No MAN could be found to “cause” a complete destruction of Jerusalem and His people. Thus, this MAN is being mentioned as a time marker revealing the beginning of the time when God would cause a complete desolation between Him and His people (70 AD).
That is how I found these verses to fit with the new interpretations of Daniel.
Finally, a very different interpretation of Matthew 24:22, which is also tied to the Daniel prophecies might be considered:
24:22… Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved….
Once again, all commentators treat this as an end time event when God will have to intervene in the destruction on earth otherwise everyone would perish. But I believe this is also speaking about the Messiah (His first coming). As mentioned, Jesus arrived on the first day of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. The first 69 weeks are completed and Jerusalem, His people, all the Levitical ceremonies and practices have been reinstated, and the Sabbatical cycles are also being honored. This is the purpose of the 70 weeks of years prophecy- The things (physical and spiritual) that MUST be restored after the Babylonian destruction.
Everything was fully restored by the end of the 69th week - these “things” were an obligation and commitment of the Jews.
There is only one item that had yet to be restored- and this can only be restored by God. Thus, on the first day of the 70th week, Jesus would be both baptized by John and anointed by God in the Jordan.
This would begin the last 7 years of the prophecy, the beginning of His ministry and in 9:24, God would reveal those requirements that He had given to His Son to complete DURING this final “Holy Week.”
But of course He would be rejected and crucified exactly 3.5 years within the last week (in the midst of the week). However, His sacrifice would pay the price for ALL of our sins should we place our faith in Him.
Meaning, that if Jesus had not gone to the cross “in the midst of the week,” then WE, ALL OF US, would not be saved! We would have no way to pay for our sins - except through our own blood.
His plan of salvation from before the beginning of the world included the cross. Jesus knew He would go to the cross BEFORE the completion of the last 7 years of His ministry (70 weeks of years prophecy)… had He NOT shortened these days, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.
Consequently, most of Daniel speaks to the Messiah (first coming), not the end times.
Look forward to your thoughts, Charlie
1290/1335 days=2000 years??
in Prophecy
Posted
Dennis, if you do not mind, we might look at our different interpretations one at a time and we can go back and forth and comment on each. The word document I submitted would not pass through...
Consequently, I would like to respond to the first item you mentioned above regarding the 490 year prophecy.
Here are my thoughts...
24a-70 weeks are determined
24b-for your people and your holy city
Gabriel begins the Lord’s interpretation by telling Daniel that seventy weeks (weeks of years, or 490 years) are determined for his people and his holy city. This introduction sets the stage for the prophecy by establishing a clear timeframe and focus. To understand why God has Gabriel start the prophecy this way, it's helpful to reflect on earlier chapters of Daniel—specifically chapters 2, 7, and 8. In those chapters, the Lord provided dreams and visions in two parts: first the dream sequence, followed by a more detailed interpretation sequence. Therefore, it might be appropriate to approach Chapter 9 in a similar fashion.
In the first two verses (24a and b), Gabriel outlines the external borders or boundaries for this prophecy. He defines the "time" boundary as seventy weeks. Unlike Chapter 2, which describes four physical kingdoms, Chapter 9 reveals three separate yet consecutive time periods of 7, 62, and 1 week, making up the 70 weeks. This structured approach helps Daniel and future readers to understand the prophecy in a clear and organized manner.
Within this period, Daniel will record both the restorative and destructive events / verses that are specifically meant for the Jews. Consequently, when the Jews return to Jerusalem, the visions—the chazon and the mareh, as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy—will no longer be "shut up" or "sealed." These prophecies are intended for the Jews to read, study, and interpret along with the rest of the messianic prophecies found in the Tanakh before the coming of their Messiah. This means that the prophecies are meant to be understood and interpreted by the Jews in preparation for the Messiah's arrival. The clear timeline and detailed events provided in these prophecies would serve as a guide for them to recognize and understand the fulfillment of God's plan for their salvation and restoration. By setting these boundaries and focusing on the specific timeframes, Gabriel ensures that the prophecies are accessible and comprehensible to those for whom they were intended.
From a literal perspective, every article of the sanctuary must be restored; the temple would need to be rebuilt along with the city and its walls. The Jews would return from Babylon and reinstate their holy ceremonies, practices, and seven holy festivals. They would restore their way of life as it was before the Babylonian destruction, completing everything in the reverse order in which it was dismantled. There is a definite purpose for dividing these seventy-weeks-of-years into three distinct sections: seven weeks (49 literal years), sixty-two weeks (434 literal years), and the final period of one week (7 literal years). Each section will have its own mission of restoration, and God will ensure everything is in place before the Messiah arrives to be baptized in the Jordan.
Consequently, the final article—the Ark of the Covenant, which was the first article taken away by Jeremiah from the Holy of Holies—would be the last piece of furniture to be restored in the Temple. It would be restored on the first day of the seventieth week of Daniel’s seventy-weeks-of-years prophecy, symbolizing the return of the Ark of the Covenant (Messiah) to its rightful place. God did not permit the Babylonians to take away the Ark of the Covenant, and similarly, He did not allow man to take the life of the Messiah. In John 10:17–18, Jesus states:
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Certainly, the restoration encompassed not only the physical items—the temple, the city, the vessels, and so on—but also the spiritual aspects. This included restoring the sabbatical cycles: the weekly Sabbath, the seven-year sabbatical cycle, the Jubilee cycle, and the Great Jubilee cycle, all perfectly timed. God orchestrated this entire restoration within one amazing and interconnected plan, symbolically recreating the beginning of the world. He restored all the physical elements, placed His people back in their holy place, and planned its entire completion in preparation for His arrival. Everything was ready, and God arrived precisely on time. His first day marked the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy. Everything was now restored to how it was in the beginning, with God once again among His people.
God had designed His plan of salvation for all of mankind. It was designed so that salvation would come through the Jews. But Israel did not go to the ends of the earth preaching the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the Gentile nations, but kept Him to themselves. When their Messiah arrived, they rejected Him. But despite this terrible transgression, salvation would still come through the Jews, but He would send His Holy Spirit to each and every one who has placed their faith in the Messiah, Jesus. God's plan of salvation, while designed to be fulfilled through the Jews, extended beyond the immediate timeline. Although Jesus fulfilled His mission as outlined in Daniel 9:24-27 and established His kingdom on earth, its complete realization awaited His return to the Father and His second coming. This means that instead of an immediate and complete fulfillment, God implemented an already, but not yet, plan of salvation that would continue for another 2000 years.
But do not be too concerned; God certainly knew this would happen and constructed His plan of salvation accordingly, aware that His people would reject Him as their Messiah. Remember, since this was His plan from the foundation of the world, we can be assured that the Jews had no choice in this matter. They are not Christ killers; they are not the enemy. Rather, it was (and still is) through their sacrifice that we were brought into His plan of salvation. The Jews were just as blinded to the coming Messiah as Daniel was. Can you possibly understand the price Israel has paid so that we can be saved?
Look forward to your comments (or anyone esle's)... Charlie