Charlie744

Just curious… is there any relationship between the 30 minutes of silence that will take place in heaven at that time with any of the steps / events that are found on earth during the annual Day of Atonement (Yom Kipper)? Is there any kind of pause the high priest might have to do before or after he enters the Holy of Holies? Does he spend any “purposeful” time with the “scapegoat” before he sends it out into the wilderness?

Once again, if you do not mind! Get by yourself and just let go and let God. There is no magic words to say… don’t look for any external sources to relieve you of your circumstances. I wish I could explain it to you just how easy it is to let go and let God! I wish I could explain to you how I understand just how impossible that must seem to you. I will bet that EVERYONE in this has sat in the seat you are sitting now. It is a very dark and ugly place to be. Please take the advice of the folks in here - just go into private place and just CRY until you can’t cry anymore… I promise you when you are worn down by your tears you WILL LOOK UP AND SINCERELY ASK GOD TO TAKE OVER. Ask Him for His peace that goes beyond any understanding. Once you do this you WILL find Him and He will begin the healing process. God bless!

In Revelation there is a period of 30 minutes of silence. What is this all about?

Are you referring directly to 2:41-43? After the Stone (Messiah) in 2:34 strikes the feet and breaks apart the iron (Rome) from the clay (Jews) that were held captive in the feet of the Roman Empire (notice the new interpretation where 2:34 is not an end time event like 2:35, AND, the Stone action takes place WITHIN THE 4th kingdom. God reveals the 4 kingdoms within the metal man image AND THEN HE REVEALS THE 2 and ONLY 2 ACTIONS THAT HE WANTS US TO FOCUS IN IN CHAPTER 2. That would be 2:34 - His first coming and 2:35 - His second coming. Consequently, 2:41-45 provide the “details” that result (but only in a big picture way, since the true details begin in chapter 7. But getting back to your comment, His church would indeed begin 2:41 (after the cross) dilute to “pottery clay” going out into the Roman Empire preaching the Good News. Unfortunately, these same verses reveal the “divided” kingdom composed of “partly clay and partly iron” - IN THAT ORDER (church) would be taken over by the Gentiles and remove the Jews from His church. This is what 2:41-43 is all about— the appropriation of His church by the Gentiles, their bringing in pagan practices and idols, and after the demise of pagan Rome, papal Rome headed by the little horn (papacy) would begin his reign over secular and church matters. I don’t know if this is what you were alluding to… let me know.

I certainly agree. You will find when you unpack Daniel that this is indeed prophesied in 2:43. After the cross, the Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah (pottery clay) would go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. This would begin His church which would quickly become dominated by the Gentiles who accepted Jesus and followers of Christ. It would not take very long when the Gentiles would develop a pagan Roman type hierarchy in the church. They would take over the power of the church, and bring in pagan practices, idols, change God’s laws and commands. This is what 2:43 is telling us - the Jews would “mingle” with them but would not / could no longer accept the changes brought into this now Gentile / Christian church.

Ok, I think I’ve got it. I don’t believe I have thought about this before… in this way. So, if I understand the issue: 1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE. a) Does this mean the act of eating the fruit ITSELF is a sin because it is a “disobedience of God’s command”? b) Or, does this mean that if Adam CHOOSES to eat of the tree it will bring in the knowledge of good and evil? Meaning, IF THIS, THEN THAT? Is the CHOICE an act of direct disobedience or is it simply an act to choose to bring in the knowledge of good and evil? 2) If the eating of the apple IS a ‘SIN,’ then Adam was the first sinner and he would bring the sin into the world (outside of the Garden). 3) If it is the latter - it was a CHOICE where he would have to suffer the consequences, then it may not be a “sin” but he would still be responsible for bringing the ability for sin to enter into the world. 4) So, the tree of good and evil is not of itself “sin”, but by choosing to access this knowledge (bringing the ability to have both good and evil into existence) Adam brought the possibility of sin into the world. 5) If God only told Adam that there WAS A TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE MIDST IF THE GARDEN, and he decided to eat the apple, was that sin? God did not tell Adam it was a sin to eat of it, but that he would die. I hope I am at least presenting this issue appropriately. I look forward to hearing all the thoughts from everyone.

I have to apologize again… I am trying to understand what you are saying … but I am not yet able. I don’t know if these comments are / will speak to your concern, but here goes: 1) Before Adam there was no sin. Yes, there was the tree of good and evil but at that time there was no sin. There was the possibility or potential for sin but only as a result of an act by Adam or Eve. 2) So, Adam was borne / created WITHOUT sin .. not born in sin. Only after he disobeyed God did “sin appear.” He was the only person born without sin. 3) However, after Adam and Eve sinned, every person born was born in sin, and the wages of sin is death. 4) Adam was the ONLY person that could be identified as a “living soul.” God took the dust of the ground and breathed HIS HOLY SPIRIT into him. He became a “living soul.” With NO sin found in him. 5) It was only after he sinned did God have to take back (HIS HOLY SPIRIT back from Adam. Adam did not have his own “spirit” within him (yes, he had a conscience, an awareness, a working mind, but he did not possess a “spirit.” That was given to him by God at his creation. 6) So everyone born after Adam was a “human being,” not a “human soul.” The sin of Adam was therefore imputed into every person that would be born. 7) I am not sure this addresses your thoughts but the sin of Adam is different than any other person that would come upon the earth. The “sin” is no different than what you or I would commit, but because he was born without sin, it is / was different. Hope this helps and I look at to your response.

Why is this incorrect? Death began after Adam sinned in the garden…

Would you be so kind as to give me / unpack what your you think Paul is saying and what you are having a problem with? Sorry.

Okay, I am here. What exactly is the issue?

@Your closest friendnt okay, what is the issue regarding Adam and sin that you are discussing re: Romans 5:12-14?

I recently sent you a question over in the “General section.” Can you access it?

Thanks for directing me to this topic. Now, is there an issue you guys are discussing about sin ? Thanks!

Sorry, can you please identify the thread? What topic or sub- topic? Thanks.

Okay, I understand your comment. God never used the word sin but He did tell Adam that he commanded him not to eat of the tree… So, what are you bringing that out for? They both disobeyed God’s commands…

I apologize but I am not sure I completely understand the your question and the direction you might want to take this… but it certainly does give one something to consider! So, I will just try and give you a few thoughts: 1) you are right in saying that Eve sinned first and ate the apple after listening to the serpent, 2) and then Adam followed her, 3) Certainly God gave them the ability to “choose,” but He also knew before the foundation of the world what they would choose, 4) So, why did Eve make the first sin and not Adam? Well, I certainly do not know but here are a few thoughts: a) Adam, not Eve, was created by God where He breathed His Holy Spirit into, b) Adam would disobey God and God would HAVE TO take back HIS HOLY SPIRIT that was breathed into Him since God (His Holy Spirit) can not be in the presence of sin, c) God would tell Adam he would surely die and was removed from God’s presence, d) Fast forward some 4000 years and Jesus would be borne also without sin, e) Jesus, would also receive His Holy Spirit on the first day of the 70th week of the prophecy. He would be anointed by His Father when He was baptized by John in the Jordan (Jesus would be heard saying, “into your hands I commit my Holy Spirit”). f) Jesus never disobeyed God but would take on ALL of our sin. He would also have to “return the Holy Spirit” given to Him by His Father on the day of His baptism. Again, when He took on our sin, the Holy Spirit within Him could not be in the presence of sin. e) Perhaps Eve symbolizes the Jews who God took out of mankind as a chosen people. They would sin and Jesus come from His people, but He, unlike Adam, would not sin when tempted by the devil. f) God would restore His Holy Spirit back into Jesus in the 3rd day and would soon return to His Father. Adam (mankind) will also be able to return to God but only by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus. Just some thoughts generated by your question..

Very nice! God knew Adam would sin and He designed a plan of that would restore man back with Him in the garden. Throughout the Scriptures He has constantly reminded us of the “do’s and don’ts,” but we continue to “play in the streets,” we continue to “play with matches.” Every prophecy in the Scriptures has been fulfilled exactly as it was given… His Word is true… we are so close to the end! He has revealed all that we need to be saved. He has withheld nothing in His plan of salvation to us.

Hey, what ever you do don’t eat the apple! Hey, don’t disobey your God, Hey, don’t worship any other God, Hey, don’t run with sissors, Hey, don’t think I have come to abolish the law, Hey, don’t eat yellow snow, Hey, don’t grieve the Holy Spirit, Hey, don’t put pineapple on your pizza, Hey, honor the Sabbath to keep it holy….

What is the AOD? What verse or verses provide your support? When did it occur or in your case, when will it occur? What causes it to occur? What exactly is the “abomination”? What exactly is the definition of the desolation ”? Why does it NOT refer to the worse event in the history of mankind? What event could be worse than could come in the future? Did not God turn His face away from His people after they rejected and crucified Him (last 2000 years)? Is this not why He turned to the Gentiles? Can you tie this “abomination of desolation” with certain verses in chapter 9 and 12, Matthew, Mark and Luke? Please try and be specific as best you can…

Well, that answers everything.

Well, that was only one of the few questions I requested you to answer… I have given you my basis for the AID as well as the timing and the subsequent verses in 2:41-43 that also speak to this interpretation. Further, chapter 7 also supports this action as His first time event. I would hope you will offer your thoughts and support for your opinions on the interpretations of mine that you so quickly dismissed. Please take a look at the previous response of mind and give your reasoning supporter / verses , etc. Above you merely quoted 12:11 but that does nothing to support an “interpretation.” It is just recording a verse. Please unpack 12:11 to reveal its interpretation to you.

Well, I can see this discussion may not last very long. So, tell me your kingdoms and why. I certainly will agree with you that 2:34 IS viewed and treated to be an end time event (actually they / almost everyone treats 2:34 and 2:35) to take place at the same time- end times, but that is a huge misinterpretation. It says “them” into pieces and then mentions the iron and the clay. Verse 2:34 is His first coming and it is supported by verses 2:41-43. If you would like to interpret these few verses in support of 2:34 being an end time event, I would like to hear it. No, the first coming of the Messiah was to “divide” not destroy. The 4 kingdoms are not destroyed by the time of the cross. He (Jesus) was CUT OUT of / from the MOUNTAIN (God). This only occurred at His first coming. Otherwise, can you tell me what CAUSED the break out of the elements from chapter 2 to 7? Certainly, God would use very different symbols from the metal man image of chapter 2, but there is still the changes to the 4th kingdom (within the 4th kingdom). Also, are there not 4 kingdoms shown in chapters 2,7,8 and 11? (Chapter 8 only discusses 3 of the 4 though)? No, the 10 toes were in existence when pagan Rome took power. The Stone in 2:34 came after Nebuchadnezzar’s description of the 4 kingdoms. I will look forward to your responses and perhaps less of your arrogance. Why do you say that? Can you describe what the AOD is and why? I have a feeling you are correct here… but you do have the opportunity to try and explain your conclusions. So, regarding the AOD, what is your AOD and why?

I believe there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms established by God. Each is symbolized by a specific “metal” type. The clay is within the iron feet (4th kingdom of Rome) and represents His people that have been restored to Jerusalem from Babylon. The timing of the striking of the feet by the Stone occurs in the last week of the 70th week of years prophecy. The Messiah does not destroy the image by striking the feet but is meant to separate or break apart His people (clay) from the iron kingdom. No, the Stone represents the first coming of the Messiah and He would not come as the Jews expected Him to come - as a conquering king like King David who would destroy the Romans. Instead, He came to “divide” and through the cross He would “separate” those of His people that would accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) versus those who would reject Him (ceramic clay). This is why you will see the separate parties / elements in chapter 7 - they are no longer kept within the iron kingdom feet. Agree. Verse 2:34 represents the first coming of the Messiah when He will “set up” His earthly Kingdom. His people (pottery clay) will go out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News to the Gentiles. The time of the Gentiles will be for some 2000 years and then verse 2:35 will apply. The Messiah will return and the end will come. Not sure what this refers to… I agree, it doesn’t matter what those who continue to reject the Messiah will do or try to do. And that includes any of the Levitical ceremonies or practices… they mean nothing. Of course there is a definite purpose! The AOD, or the “Abomination that CAUSES desolation” represents ONLY ONE EVENT- the crucifixion of the Messiah! God had already completely destroyed the Jews, the Temple, the entire city of Jerusalem by the hands of the Babylonians. All of this was due to their disobedience to God in not honoring the Sabbath as it relates to the land. EVERYTHING was destroyed and the Jews were sent into captivity for 70 years. Fast forward some 600 years and now His people being completely restored to Jerusalem will now reject their Messiah and crucify Him. Can you please try and offer a more horrific transgression against God? What could possibly equal or even approach this level of sin? NOTHING COULD COME CLOSE TO THIS ACTION AGAINST THEIR GOD. Consequently, God would have to punish His people. But this time it would not be a 70 year period in captivity and a complete destruction of their Temple, city, walls, etc. This is on another whole level! There are two parts to His punishment: 1) God would give His people another 40 years after the criss ( a 40 year testing period to accept Him). But of course they continued to reject Him and continued their Levitical ceremonies and practices. Then in 70 AD He would send the Roman army to completely destroy EVERYTHING - ALL the things physical about Jerusalem. The Jews would be scattered around the world for this “abominable” transgression. And here is also when He would punish His people in the worst way. In Babylon, they were sent into captivity for 70 years BUT THEIR GOD THROUGH DANIEL WOULD NEVER LEAVE THEM. However, as a result of the cross, God WOULD separate Himself from His people. He would make them “desolate” from Him for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). There could be no greater punishment than to be separated or made “desolate” from their Holy God. It doesn’t matter what they think or try to do. Unless they (Jew or Gentile) accept Jesus they will not see salvation. They or anyone on this planet can build all the Temples or Buddha statues or whatever they want… they will be destroyed by His second coming.

Yes, there is no need for another Temple, Sanctuary, Levitical ceremonies, animal sacrifices or offerings. They were a type and shadow of the coming Messiah. And He fulfilled them all during His 3.5 year ministry. Their mission within His plan of salvation was completed. In chapter 2, the Stone (Messiah) would strike the feet of the image. This is the feet of the 4th iron kingdom of Rome. Rome would conquer the known world and would make all nations subservient to their commands. Israel, the symbolic clay within the feet would be separated from the iron (the iron and the clay would be broken apart or into pieces in a non- military manner. It was the Jews belief the Messiah would accomplish this by defeating Rome in a military like manner, but God was concerned with the spiritual battle and would break His people out from the iron kingdom in this manner). If we look at His people AFTER the cross (Paul, John, Matthew, etc.), they would be chosen by God (out of the ceramic clay identified in verses 2:41-43) and go out into the world preaching the Word of God AND the Testimony of Jesus. These people would be referred to as “pottery clay” within these same verses. Meaning, there is absolutely nothing written in the NT where Paul, John, Matthew or ANY of His followers that spoke of another Temple, Sanctuary, animal sacrifices, or offerings AFTER the cross. They understood that Jesus had done away with the need for them. However, those of His people that refused to accept Him as their Messiah would continue to stay with the Levitical ceremonies, practices, etc. And even after God had punished them in 70 AD, AND, more importantly, has made them “desolate” to their God for the past 2000 years, they still have not accepted Him. And finally, this brings us to the “true” end times when God will declare the time of Gentiles is over. He will then remove the blindness from their eyes and they will the One they had pierced. This is necessary BEFORE the Messiah can return. The final obligation of His people has yet to be fulfilled: They must complete the final 3.5 years of the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle. For 3.5 years, His people will go out into the world preaching Word and the Testimony of Jesus, the end will come. So, IF, and I do believe there will still be both Jews and Gentiles that will continue to reject Jesus at this end time, they will no doubt still contend another Temple is needed.

Hope you are not offended in any way… and you can be sure that millions upon millions have been exactly where you are right now and CERTAINLY EVEN MUCH WORSE!!!!!!!! You are quite able to articulate your situation and express the pain, the frustration, the unknowing, the lack of support, the true lack of peace, and of course, the anger that comes along with all of this. You are also an intelligent individual who is able to reach out and receive and even accept the true and wonderful comments, suggestions, and advice from those folks within this forum that have responded to your situation. However, you are now within a situation that almost all people will / have found themselves in … whether it is a financial crisis, a medical issue, legal concerns, drugs, abuse, poverty…. or any combination of these…. There is nothing new under the sun. You have responded in very kind ways to the comments and suggestions offered here, but there is a very noticeable (my opinion) reaction from you… and please believe me, EVERYONE has had to go through this to some degree (some will never leave this stage, some will have to continue falling down into the hole, some will respond as though they have just had a large bucket of very cold water on them and realized - ENOUGH, they are right, ENOUGH WITH THIS WAY OF LIFE AND I DO NOT WANT IT ANYMORE! It is NOT your circumstances that will take you down and down and even further down, it is your continuation to look for help from anyone other than the One that can and will help you. Today’s responses by the wonderful, caring folks will / may provide you with some relief or give you a pleasant feeling knowing others are sympathetic, but this is all short term to you. An hour from now, you will have moved back to your previous position of … all those things you are used to feeling. The bottom line is that you are NOT going to find a quick fix or the right set of actions or steps to take to stop your state of mind and your continued falling down that dark hole… The ONLY solution you have to experience what you are looking for … in every way, is to ask yourself just how long and how much YOU ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT THIS STATE YOU ARE IN. It will not be resolved with a check for XXX dollars, it will not be resolved with a brand new job, it will not be resolved by ANYTHING OTHER THAN DECIDING YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH AND LOOK UP TO YOUR GOD AND TELL HIM YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH AND YOU PLACE EVERYTHING (EVERYTHING - NO MORE OF YOUR “buts”) IN HIS CARE. This is NOT an easy thing to do!!! In fact, for most people, it is easy to say, easy to agree with, but almost impossible for most to actually do. But once you COMPLETELY / SINCERELY/ give Him the keys to the car and turn your heart and mind over to Him, you will know it was the right and only decision you could and should have made. Don’t continue to look and search the “how’s and ‘why’s” and the “when” each of your issues or problems will be resolved… they are not there and NO ONE can give them to you! Again, I can assure you, it will be an easy thing to hear from others, it will be received by you calmly, but it will be the most difficult decision to do… to truly let go and let God. Ask yourself just how long you think you want to continue doing and living this life as you have been doing… when you have had enough, God WILL BE THERE FOR YOU… you must want to abandon this life as you know it. Don’t look for solutions, look only to Him! I hope this does not sound too harsh or without substance! You DO HAVE THE ANSWER… you just don’t believe it can be so. God bless always, Charlie