Charlie744

Are you referring directly to 2:41-43? After the Stone (Messiah) in 2:34 strikes the feet and breaks apart the iron (Rome) from the clay (Jews) that were held captive in the feet of the Roman Empire (notice the new interpretation where 2:34 is not an end time event like 2:35, AND, the Stone action takes place WITHIN THE 4th kingdom. God reveals the 4 kingdoms within the metal man image AND THEN HE REVEALS THE 2 and ONLY 2 ACTIONS THAT HE WANTS US TO FOCUS IN IN CHAPTER 2. That would be 2:34 - His first coming and 2:35 - His second coming. Consequently, 2:41-45 provide the “details” that result (but only in a big picture way, since the true details begin in chapter 7. But getting back to your comment, His church would indeed begin 2:41 (after the cross) dilute to “pottery clay” going out into the Roman Empire preaching the Good News. Unfortunately, these same verses reveal the “divided” kingdom composed of “partly clay and partly iron” - IN THAT ORDER (church) would be taken over by the Gentiles and remove the Jews from His church. This is what 2:41-43 is all about— the appropriation of His church by the Gentiles, their bringing in pagan practices and idols, and after the demise of pagan Rome, papal Rome headed by the little horn (papacy) would begin his reign over secular and church matters. I don’t know if this is what you were alluding to… let me know.

I certainly agree. You will find when you unpack Daniel that this is indeed prophesied in 2:43. After the cross, the Jews who would accept Jesus as their Messiah (pottery clay) would go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. This would begin His church which would quickly become dominated by the Gentiles who accepted Jesus and followers of Christ. It would not take very long when the Gentiles would develop a pagan Roman type hierarchy in the church. They would take over the power of the church, and bring in pagan practices, idols, change God’s laws and commands. This is what 2:43 is telling us - the Jews would “mingle” with them but would not / could no longer accept the changes brought into this now Gentile / Christian church.

Ok, I think I’ve got it. I don’t believe I have thought about this before… in this way. So, if I understand the issue: 1) God told Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil, FOR WHEN YOU DO, YOU WILL SURELY DIE. a) Does this mean the act of eating the fruit ITSELF is a sin because it is a “disobedience of God’s command”? b) Or, does this mean that if Adam CHOOSES to eat of the tree it will bring in the knowledge of good and evil? Meaning, IF THIS, THEN THAT? Is the CHOICE an act of direct disobedience or is it simply an act to choose to bring in the knowledge of good and evil? 2) If the eating of the apple IS a ‘SIN,’ then Adam was the first sinner and he would bring the sin into the world (outside of the Garden). 3) If it is the latter - it was a CHOICE where he would have to suffer the consequences, then it may not be a “sin” but he would still be responsible for bringing the ability for sin to enter into the world. 4) So, the tree of good and evil is not of itself “sin”, but by choosing to access this knowledge (bringing the ability to have both good and evil into existence) Adam brought the possibility of sin into the world. 5) If God only told Adam that there WAS A TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE MIDST IF THE GARDEN, and he decided to eat the apple, was that sin? God did not tell Adam it was a sin to eat of it, but that he would die. I hope I am at least presenting this issue appropriately. I look forward to hearing all the thoughts from everyone.

I have to apologize again… I am trying to understand what you are saying … but I am not yet able. I don’t know if these comments are / will speak to your concern, but here goes: 1) Before Adam there was no sin. Yes, there was the tree of good and evil but at that time there was no sin. There was the possibility or potential for sin but only as a result of an act by Adam or Eve. 2) So, Adam was borne / created WITHOUT sin .. not born in sin. Only after he disobeyed God did “sin appear.” He was the only person born without sin. 3) However, after Adam and Eve sinned, every person born was born in sin, and the wages of sin is death. 4) Adam was the ONLY person that could be identified as a “living soul.” God took the dust of the ground and breathed HIS HOLY SPIRIT into him. He became a “living soul.” With NO sin found in him. 5) It was only after he sinned did God have to take back (HIS HOLY SPIRIT back from Adam. Adam did not have his own “spirit” within him (yes, he had a conscience, an awareness, a working mind, but he did not possess a “spirit.” That was given to him by God at his creation. 6) So everyone born after Adam was a “human being,” not a “human soul.” The sin of Adam was therefore imputed into every person that would be born. 7) I am not sure this addresses your thoughts but the sin of Adam is different than any other person that would come upon the earth. The “sin” is no different than what you or I would commit, but because he was born without sin, it is / was different. Hope this helps and I look at to your response.

Why is this incorrect? Death began after Adam sinned in the garden…

Would you be so kind as to give me / unpack what your you think Paul is saying and what you are having a problem with? Sorry.

Okay, I am here. What exactly is the issue?

@Your closest friendnt okay, what is the issue regarding Adam and sin that you are discussing re: Romans 5:12-14?

I recently sent you a question over in the “General section.” Can you access it?

Thanks for directing me to this topic. Now, is there an issue you guys are discussing about sin ? Thanks!

Sorry, can you please identify the thread? What topic or sub- topic? Thanks.

Okay, I understand your comment. God never used the word sin but He did tell Adam that he commanded him not to eat of the tree… So, what are you bringing that out for? They both disobeyed God’s commands…

I apologize but I am not sure I completely understand the your question and the direction you might want to take this… but it certainly does give one something to consider! So, I will just try and give you a few thoughts: 1) you are right in saying that Eve sinned first and ate the apple after listening to the serpent, 2) and then Adam followed her, 3) Certainly God gave them the ability to “choose,” but He also knew before the foundation of the world what they would choose, 4) So, why did Eve make the first sin and not Adam? Well, I certainly do not know but here are a few thoughts: a) Adam, not Eve, was created by God where He breathed His Holy Spirit into, b) Adam would disobey God and God would HAVE TO take back HIS HOLY SPIRIT that was breathed into Him since God (His Holy Spirit) can not be in the presence of sin, c) God would tell Adam he would surely die and was removed from God’s presence, d) Fast forward some 4000 years and Jesus would be borne also without sin, e) Jesus, would also receive His Holy Spirit on the first day of the 70th week of the prophecy. He would be anointed by His Father when He was baptized by John in the Jordan (Jesus would be heard saying, “into your hands I commit my Holy Spirit”). f) Jesus never disobeyed God but would take on ALL of our sin. He would also have to “return the Holy Spirit” given to Him by His Father on the day of His baptism. Again, when He took on our sin, the Holy Spirit within Him could not be in the presence of sin. e) Perhaps Eve symbolizes the Jews who God took out of mankind as a chosen people. They would sin and Jesus come from His people, but He, unlike Adam, would not sin when tempted by the devil. f) God would restore His Holy Spirit back into Jesus in the 3rd day and would soon return to His Father. Adam (mankind) will also be able to return to God but only by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus. Just some thoughts generated by your question..

Very nice! God knew Adam would sin and He designed a plan of that would restore man back with Him in the garden. Throughout the Scriptures He has constantly reminded us of the “do’s and don’ts,” but we continue to “play in the streets,” we continue to “play with matches.” Every prophecy in the Scriptures has been fulfilled exactly as it was given… His Word is true… we are so close to the end! He has revealed all that we need to be saved. He has withheld nothing in His plan of salvation to us.

Hey, what ever you do don’t eat the apple! Hey, don’t disobey your God, Hey, don’t worship any other God, Hey, don’t run with sissors, Hey, don’t think I have come to abolish the law, Hey, don’t eat yellow snow, Hey, don’t grieve the Holy Spirit, Hey, don’t put pineapple on your pizza, Hey, honor the Sabbath to keep it holy….