FeministWhoLovesABeliever

Yes. I wasn't clear. I understand that the bible says christians should not marry unbelievers. But does it say that if they exert their free will and do it anyway, that the marriage doesn't exist? Does the bible also say that christians shouldn't engage in homosexual sex? And, if so, does this mean that, if they do, it doesn't count because it doesn't exist? The sunrise and sunset displays of the fellowship between light and darkness are a great analogy for our love. um. Are you suggesting that I represent the devil? If so, why are you engaging in conversation with me? But christians are also supposed to attempt to live like jesus did, right? Did he not meet them where they lived, feed them, teach them, and heal them?He met them where they lived, fed them, taught them, and healed them (Matthew 9:9-11; Mark 1:33-34; 6:30-42; Luke 5:1-11). Thank you for sharing your experience. It does help as your words do feel harsh. I think you are saying that you were with a wonderful man and maybe you are also that there were some years when he was not wonderful? When he was the opposite of kind and gentle? I'm benefitting from the conversations that I'm having here, the podcasts that I've been listening to, and the articles that I'm reading. The bible is difficult reading I can see why study groups or sermons are necessary and could imagine enjoying spending the rest of my life having these discussions, with my beloved. Maybe, if I continue to ask questions, engage in conversations, and read the bible, God will change me as well and that would be a beautiful thing. But what my beloved is doing feels like the opposite of faith. If he knows Christ is the only way and that Christ has the power to save me, than wouldn't faith look like sharing his experiences with me, instead of trying to control mine? Isn't the effort to control demonstrative of lack of faith? I disagree. I think patriarchy is the result of the fall, not god's direction for how we are supposed to live. Take a look at this: https://liferotp.com/acblog/2015/8/20/6-the-ezer-kenegdo Yes, the feeling of things matters! I wish we had engaged in a ceremony that felt like a marriage before now. There are some really complicated reasons why I can't do so, at this time. We were both previously married, he in a christian ceremony, me in a jewish one. But those ceremonies did not result in either of us being one flesh with our previous spouses. Mine resulted in forming the false conclusion that marriage was essentially the bonds of ownership, obligation, and entitlement. I did not want to do that to my beloved. I experience our union to be greater than marriage. I have sacrificed more for him than most wives ever will for their husbands, not from a position of obligation but because I was created to serve him. (I'm not saying that this is my only purpose. But I believe it to be one of the most important ones.) In his presence, I experience wholeness. I am unable to experience it without him. I've quite a few rough edges myself ;-) My partner has never taken advantage of me. I have only known him to be a man of incredible kindness, integrity and service. He truly is one of my heroes. That's what makes this so hard. If he were a lesser man, I would just be on my way. In so many ways, life would be easier if I did. I'm not one of those insecure women who feels the need to be in relationship with a man or fears being alone. Maybe that's another reason that marriage didn't appeal to me: I'm not interested in obtaining a husband. It is him that I want to be cherished by and to serve. I see this in my beloved and also in some other christians that I know. But some of the ugliest people that see also call themselves christian? I will. Thank you.

Thank you for your encouraging words. I have always understood belief to be the result of logic and experiences. But, so far, neither of those are working for this situation. Is there another path to belief?

It says "do not be unequally yoked" It does not say that it is not possible to be unequally yoked. By your logic, women also do not speak in church because Corinthians also says "Let your women keep silence in the churches". Am I correct in thinking that the bible forbids many things that people, christian continue to do? Are christians always obedient to the bible? Do they never look on someone with lust? Do their children always obey their parents? Is this an opinion or biblical truth? I ask because some, not all, other Christians on this forum have said otherwise. If you are aware of passages that I can read, so that I can see it myself, it would be helpful. Interesting. I don't think that he mislead me. I think that his beliefs somehow changed. But it wasn't his belief in christ the savior that changed. It was something else. It looks like 24% of christians choose to marry outside of their faith. While theese are the minority they do represent a significant portion of the Christian people: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-marriage/ Thanks. I know that my love isn't a sin. Since we are destined to sin, it seems a better use of one's effort and attention to focus on overcoming the sins that cause others pain, instead of those that are expressions of love.

I don't think my god is different than his god. I believe that Christianity is one of many paths to god. I mostly experience god in the feminine. I think that this makes sense for me as an individual because I experience god's gifts from the body of a woman. But I also think that it's important for the world to lift up the feminine aspects of god, not for the purpose of reducing the importance of the masculine aspects but because patriarchy has and is causing much harm in the world. It sounds complicated but, more importantly, it feels wrong. Not necessarily the Christ part but the "he" part. I have had exquisite personal experiences with God. I love her. I believe in her. If I was made his image than I was made in her image at the same time. (from faith and feminism podcast. Sorry I don't remember the guest who said it.) Am I missing something or did you just define marriage outside of what scripture describes and at the same time say that scripture would be required to demonstrate otherwise? My original question was probably poorly worded. The marriage ceremony itself isn't the hangup. It's the fact that I'm not christian. Thank you

I am having a hard time getting here. Christianity sees sin as an offence against god, right? But how does sin hurt god, aside from hurting gods creation? And if the pain is to god's creation, should not reparations also be made to gods creation? Anne Lamont, a Christian writer says "the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely. Faith includes noticing the mess, the emptiness and discomfort, and letting it be there until some light returns." What is driving me batty tonight is not Christian's faith in Christ, but it's certainty that Christ is the only path to god. If their stance was "this is so awesome, we want to share it with everyone" I think I would be more interested in exploring it. It's the "If you don't agree that this is the only way to be right in god's eyes, than we are certain that you are going to hell" that I find to be so offensive. Certainly this stance is an example of the sin of pride? I've been very sincere. So far no luck :-( Thank you. I will check these out. I did find a podcast that I'm really enjoying: faith and feminism.

You said that beautifully. I feel the love and consideration in your responses to me. Thank you. When my son was almost a year, we lit a fire in the fireplace and sat cuddled together next to it. When he reached towards that glass, I said "hot" and gently pulled his hand away. But I did not constrain it. Instead I watched as he immediately reached for the glass again. A moment later he said his first word: "hot", and I kissed his tender fingers. My son learned that I don't want him to be hurt, that my thoughts are worth considering, and that touching fireplace glass hurts. I think that if I had instead slapped his hand away, he would have learned that I will hurt him. Though he would eventually come to logically understand that my intention was to protect him, that knowledge would not negate the physical and emotional experience of having been hurt by me. I'm not trying to suggest that I'm a perfect parent. I've hurt my children in ways that were much worse than the slapping a hand. But those minutes by the fireplace are ones that I'm pretty sure that I got right. I'm not interested in worshiping a god that punishes. But I willingly embrace the one that created a world with consequences who will comfort me, when I experience those consequences. One way or another, we all have to learn that fire burns. Each of us has the free will to decide what to do with that knowledge. I'm one of those who, multiple times, considered it and choose to walk on fire. Sometimes it did result in tiny burns. But I also got to practice being vulnerable and brave. I learned that just because something seems obvious or true, doesn't make it so, and I was awed by the mystery of this world/god. THIS is so important. I've done this. I'm not saying that it is done. There are layers upon layers. Before I knew what it was like to expose them, I hid the secrets, even from myself. Now I seek out hidden layers, craving the painfully beautiful experience of exposing them to the healing light. I have read it and I watched it in a movie two nights ago. Both times I found it to be confusing. I read it again now, at your suggestion. And then looked up the summary on Dummies.com which says that it describes the spiritual thirst the human heart has for goodness and truth, that is never quenched until people are in the presence of god forever. I have this thirst inside of me. From a different, and completely self-serving rules and regulations perspective, I noticed something new this time. I wonder what you and anyone else who is reading this thinks? Jesus referred to the man that she was with as her husband. Commentary suggests that he was doing so to point out her sin. But maybe Jesus was simply identifying the man that she shared her life with. Maybe it was her statement "I have no husband" that defined the man? King James reports Jesus then said "You have well said, 'I have no husband", which suggests he was praising her for telling the truth. But the Good News Bible reports that Jesus's response was "You are right when you say you have no husband." [emphasis mine] which supports the idea that she, not a marriage ceremony, defined the role of the man that she shared her life with. Because most of the bibles seem to subscribe to the praise version, it is likely that my embracing of the alternative is indicative of my fallibility and weakness of character. However, it is also likely that the men who wrote the texts, the scribes who copied the texts, the men who determined which texts were worthy of being included, and the men who interpreted the texts, were also fallible humans who, like me, were influenced by the intense misogyny of their times and served by increasing men's power and influence and decreasing women's Maybe my personal knowing of god, in the feminine, is sacrilegious. But maybe also taking a word that, in its original language, specifies that a group of people that were not exclusively women, and translating it to one that suggests only the masculine gender, is also sacrilegious. Maybe Jesus referred to god as his father because god is masculine. But maybe Jesus called god his "father" only to remind people that his life was not the result of a human father. God could have formed Jesus outside of a woman and then placed him, fully formed, on earth. Perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god is masculine. Or perhaps god excluded a man from contributing to Jesus's DNA because god did not consider man to be worthy but did consider women to be. I am not suggesting that I believe this to be true or that I would want it to be interpreted as such. I am just trying to demonstrate how absurd and egotistical it is for any religion to claim that their text is the word of god. If, instead, the bible were to acknowledge that it is an interpretation of those of god's words that men, in misogynistic times, judged and interpreted to be true, I think that it would make the purpose and person of Christ more accessible to people like me. Furthermore, I suspect that the demonstration of charity, diligence, and humility that would be required to do this, would inspire similar virtues from it's followers. But back to the "acceptable" interpretation of the text: Jesus also said "The fact is, you have had five husbands." Does this mean that she had 5 wedding ceremonies? Or does it instead suggest that the people who told me that marriage is only attainable through a wedding ceremony could have been wrong and that by partnering with 5 men, she was married to 5 men?

Bless you. Thank you.

You write beautifully. Your story calls me closer to Jesus. Thank you for your warm welcome and your service <3

God does not allow an unbeliever and a believer to be married? Is there a verse that says this? Though I don't think it will change your assessment, I do want to clarify that he was Christian when we met and that we built a life together that we both said was permanent. But I think your point is that there wasn't a wedding ceremony. Is that what you are saying causes a woman to become a wife? And if so, what does Christ want for a woman who, not knowing that a wedding ceremony was required to sanctify her partnership, gave 10 years and sacrificed more than most do for the man she considered to be her husband? I am not suggesting that staying with her isn't a sin, only that leaving her is also one. I think that, like the Canaanite woman, whose daughter was possessed by a demon, who dared to speak up for herself, after the disciples asked Jesus to cast her away and Jesus himself told her that he wasn't there for her and equated her to being a dog, that Jesus would also say to me "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." Wrong word. Sorry. But we were both previously married and entered into sexual relationships before our divorces were finalized (but long after they were underway and beyond reversal), so we are adulterers as well. I have no doubt that our "marriage" is infinitely more sacred than our legal marriages were. I was not one flesh with my husband. He was not one flesh with his wife. I don't find the biblical god's will "permissive" but I appreciate you keeping it real. I had somehow thought that there might be a general consensus. But there doesn't seem to be. You say that we are not married others say that we are. Although frustrating, knowing there is so much room for interpretation makes Christianity a little more accessible to me. So, thank you for that. I think God also makes unattainable standards of morality and ethical boundaries so that none of us can claim to be free from sin. We are celibate and living apart, while we figure this out. I do not want him to stay with me out of obligation. If he takes the opposite view that you do, and believes it to be his responsibility to recognise our marriage, but does not want to be married, than I will divorce him, so that he can be free. I am not looking to trap him. I am looking to serve him. I am neither atheist or agnostic. I love god. I am offended by people who pridefully proclaim their religion to be truer than others. I am offended by people who, without first earnestly considering other religions, slothfully proclaim others to be wrong. I am offended by people who wrathfully believe that those who find god through other religions should be destined for hell. I am offended by people who greedily presume god's love to be limited, so it can only be allocated to others who share their religion. Yes, many christians fit this bill. I am profoundly grateful and humbled by those of you who do not. You are the ones that are increasing my desire to know Jesus. Thank you <3

This is beautiful. I have prayed to Jesus but not asked this specific question. I will try it tonight. Thank you for the idea and for sharing your experience.

I'm sorry that I missed the protocol. It is not a bored with COVID question. Mine is an odd situation. If Christianity wasn't important to my husband, I wouldn't have any interest in it. So, in a way, you are right. This is a good clarifying question. Thanks. I'm not sure what the different examples that you gave mean. He has always identified as a Christian. What has changed is that he now he wants to devote his life to it, by following God's will, as outlined in the bible. Important clarification. Thanks. Our children from different marriages are almost grown. We are both older and won't be having any more, so that does help to simplify things just a little. If I didn't want to get to know his god, I would searching for answers from a secular forum. Yes. He is focusing on what Christ wants for his life. The hangup is whether or not that includes me. He would like it to, by way of a christian marriage. It is not, in any way shape or form, about a wedding party. Neither of us are interested in that. I don't already know the responses that I'm getting in this forum. Yours is different and considerably less desirable to me, than some of the others. But I'm not here to find justification of my wants. So I'm equally grateful for your opinion and insight. Please pray for me. Thank you for your time and thoughts. <3

I think maybe you identified the problem. I might be able to come to agree that the major teaching of the bible are true. But I am offended by the part of Christianity that insists that it is the truth. [bummer. It looks like there is no way to put a graphic in here? I'm going to try again but if it doesn't work, please follow this link to see it. (I didn't read the article. Just linking to it for the graphic.)] I believe that my husband sees and knows what is true. I aspire to be more involved and interested in learning about what he knows to be true. I am grateful for the gifts that his relationship with Christ brings to both of us. But what is true for me is also important. These are some of the beautiful spiritual experiences that I have had: A fiercely feminine god came to me and gave me strength in childbirth. An angel lifted my face as I started to drown. In muslim countries, when I hear the call to prayer I recognize it. (I don't understand the words. It is more as if I were an infant and my father was singing to me.) While dancing with sufis, tears spontaneously poured out of my eyes and I felt God's blessing upon me. As a teenager, in mass, I observed a bright golden glow, around Father David's head. Am I correct in thinking that, to be Christian, I would have to come to believe that the experiences that were not christ-based, had been false? To answer your other questions: I do not believe that Christ is my savior. I've never considered needing a savior before. It's a new concept for me. It's true that there are quite a few worldly things that I could use some help with. But it seems to me that forgiveness is for the person who was harmed to give? I will keep praying. Any specific suggestions for that? The "Jesus, thank you and please" recipe that I've been using hasn't felt very productive to me. Can anyone recommend a podcast or other way to tune in to a pastor who they think might appeal to me?

I agree that God did not make women to be less than men and I appreciate that Jesus helped to deeper understanding between the sexes. I do dislike the patriarchy. But it is a human-made problem, not a God-made one. (Note that I said human, instead of man, because women have co-created it.) Yes. My husband has always put me first. His desire for me to accept Christ as my lord and savior is a reflection of his great service to me. I appreciate that. And, at the same time, I do feel belittled and disrespected by the position he taken of presuming to know what is best for me. "Because the bible says it" doesn't, to my mind, mean it is real or right. But I need to make sure that I don't instinctively and defensively take the opposite position, that I make a genuine effort to consider his perspective, including praying to Christ and striving to open my heart and mind. Thank you. I hope that you are right that my partner and I aren't as far apart as I fear. <3 This is my first time in a forum. I'm so grateful to you and the others who have reached out. I'm slow to respond because I'm taking the time to consider each post and work through my responses to them, which is an insightful process. Unfortunately, I do have to give some of time to work today. I look forward to returning and learning more about Christianity and myself. Thank you.

I agree with you. The more that I learn about Jesus the more that I appreciate him. My relationship and knowing of god is of the feminine. It makes sense to me that my husband's is the masculine. What doesn't work for me is the position that those who follow other religions are not worthy in god's eyes or that Christ and the father are the only right way to live. C.S. Lewis, in The Chronicles of Narnia, told a story where dwarfs, who were in heaven, believed themselves to be in hell, and so they were. In this same way, I believe that my mother, who is an ordained Buddhist monk, will be reincarnated and that my husband will go to heaven. I believe that neither are better than the other and that both make up important parts of the individual's spiritual journey to becoming one with god. I relish in who my husband is. I recognize that he is sourced from and intertwined with Christ. I praise God for that. I am nurtured by it. I benefit from it. But the bible does not depict my connection with God, which is as vitally important to me as his is to him. My connection does not require a religion, ceremony, book, general consensus, or any person's approval to exist or receive my reverence.

Thank you for praying for me <3! Your english is great. I am also writing with not enough sleep. I appreciate you clarifying that being sanctified by marriage to a christian is not the same thing as being saved. Since marriage also binds people after death, what happens to the believer when the unbeliever does not join him in heaven? You ask if it would be a positive thing for me to go to heaven without choosing God. I do choose God. I believe that there is one God but many ways to know and be in relationship with her. (yes. her. I'm willing to meet in the middle and accept a genderless God but not to make myself exclusive to a religion that constrains god to the masculine.) I don't think my particular form of feminism is the same that offends so many conservatives. While I do advocate for equal rights for women, I do not think that means that men and women are the same but, instead, that we are glorious in our differences. I feel the same way about the different religions. To me, my husband's Christianity is a gift to us and to the world. But so is Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism. . . . I will admit to not personally appreciating some religions. But I do not consider myself or any other person, qualified to judge another's relationship with God. I am not an expert on the different religions. But I love and trust God enough to believe it is not impossible for buddhists to be reincarnated, Christians and Catholics to go to heaven, and Muslims to go to Janna. If you have made it this far into my perspective, know that, by doing so, you have shown more consideration than many other Christians have extended to me. Thank you. Before my husband was incarcerated, I was not interested in or even very respectful towards Christianity. Now I choose to listen to almost exclusively Christian music. I have enjoyed praying to Jesus and was even visited by him once! I am reading the bible and I really enjoy learning more about Christ. Like you mention, I particularly appreciate his lifting up of those who others considered less worthy. But the bible was written and assembled by men and, as such, is skewed to their perspectives. Here is one example, the King James bible says that we were created to be a help meets for man, a statement that I've seen many Christian writers suggest feminine, gentle support. But the original interpretation, as found on this christian website says that, in the 21 times that the word is used in the old testament, only twice does it to refer to the first woman. Three times it is used to describe military support, and sixteen times in reference to God as a helper. It goes on to suggest that a better translation of the word would be "opposed support" which reminds me of a beautiful stone arch which is made possible and greater than its components because of opposition. Without which, it would crumble into a pile. My understanding is that the bible was written from men's perspectives. It was interpreted by men. And more than 100 years after Christ, a group of men determined Canon by, in part, considering "when we read this, is there an inner sense, from God, that what was written is right and true". I know that I'm not personally qualified to determine Canon. But I'm certain that if women had written, interpreted, and selected it based, in part, on their inner sense about what was right and true, the bible would be very different. I suspect that whoever is still reading thinks that I'm missing the heart of the matter, which is that God sent his only son to save us. But can you also see that it is not reasonable to conclude that the bible depicts everything that is most important about God? Or even, that by excluding women, who were also created in God's image, it likely misses some very important things? At the very least, I'm guessing you will have come to the same conclusion that I have, which is that there is very little chance that I will ever become a Christian. But if you have the tenacity to continue to engage with me, I will strive to keep an open mind.

Tristen, First I want to say that I'm really moved that you are taking so much time for me. Thank you. I remember the moment when we signed the health insurance documents that promised that we were responsible for one another as being special. There was no single moment when we made a solemn promise to be bound together. But countless times told me that he believed that we were created for one another, that we loved each other before this life and we would after it. I never wanted a legal marriage. My take away from my marriage to someone else was a strong aversion to any relationship based on obligation or expectation. What I wanted and found in my relationship with the man that I call my husband, was the beautiful gift of a making a conscious choice, again and again, through good and bad times, to be together. I often said that commitment to him was larger than [my understanding at the time, of] marriage. I promised, instead, to spend my life loving and supporting his fulfillment and happiness, even if that meant that, someday, I would need to let him go. But recently he has articulated what a christian marriage means to him and I find it to be exquisite. That he wants our love to be a covenant with god and that loving and cherishing would be intertwined with his precious relationship to Christ, leaves me feeling both humbled and exalted. It is more than I would have dreamed of hoping for. I have spent a good deal of time with 1 Corinthians 7:12-16, perhaps focusing too much on "the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband" portion of the verse? To me it suggests that it is done. Am I missing something? You mention wondering if I want to deal with a lifetime of "christian expectations". I don't know what that means. I've spent a good deal of time studying. Some of what I read and listen to feels not just acceptable but also desirable to me. Other things are offensive. For example, my submission to this man is not something that I consciously strive to do. It is the natural response to being with a man of great service and integrity who inspires me to be a better person; a man who cherishes me, gives himself up for me, and holds me above anyone else. But if he or you or god were to suggest that I must do so because God commands it, instead of creating it in me and our relationship, I would not hesitate to tell any of you (yes, god also.) to stuff it. I am blessed by his increasing dedication to his faith. I am grateful to God for providing him with what I could not, during his incarceration. I can tell when he prays for me, though he does it silently and without telling me, because I feel the weight lift from my shoulders. But, you are right, his insistence that I force myself to believe things that do not make logical or emotional sense to me is really irritating. Figuring out if we are married was the purpose of my original post. But if the bible is clear that it would be better for him to not be yoked to me, than perhaps the question of marriage is secondary to my obligation to divorce him. My heart aches to say that. Is there nothing that suggests that his sanctification of an unbeliever could, like a christian marriage, also be fulfilling God's word?

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand and agree that my becoming christian would be the ideal solution for this situation. I read the bible, prayed, consulted with two pastors, read quite a few christian websites and also listened to podcasts. Jesus does not call me. I am grateful that my husband has Christ. When he prays for me, I experience profound peace. I don't want to do anything to compromise or harm his relationship with God. On the contrary, I recognize that it serves both of us and want to support it. Though the misogyny bothers me, the verse, "for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior" best describes how I feel being with my him. When we are together, it is as if the left side of my brain (masculine, analytical, linear thinking) downshifts and the right side (intuition, imagination, love) is set free in a way that cannot happen without his presence. We both have grown children from previous marriages. We will not have more together. So that is not a concern. My husband has the same confusion about the status of our relationship that I do. He wants to wait for me to find Jesus. But I don't think that will happen. Perhaps I need to provide a little more context. He was in jail for a year and then suddenly released a week before trial because the charges against him fell apart. (I feel really vulnerable disclosing this. Before the nightmare we naively believed that being good people and following laws would prevent such things. They don't.) He was Christian before incarceration but came out if it with the need to make me into one.

thank you!

On a separate note, am I doing this right? Do I keep entering text in "reply to this topic" or should I be using the "+" or "quote" options, so it is clear what post I'm replying to?

oops

Thank you for your response. No. I do not believe it. He is saved. Not me. What confuses me is the status of our existing relationship. Does 10 years together, legal documents accepting financial responsibility for each other (health insurance) and a promise in front of god (who is everywhere) to keep ourselves for each other in this life and beyond, constitute becoming one flesh, so we should not now be separated? Or does the lack of a wedding ceremony nullify the above?

So is salvation dependent on not fornicating or, as the bible also says: If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

no I don’t realize that, nor do I believe the Bible makes it that black and white: marriage is the union of only two people—a male and female (Matthew 19:5)—for the purpose of covenantal companionship (Genesis 2:18; Malachi 2:14) and the raising up of godly offspring (Genesis 1:28; Malachi 2:15). I might not know the biblical stance of our relationship but I do know that I love him and want what is best for him. Why else would I be asking these questions here?

I am 10 years into a relationship, and very much in love, with a Christian. It was our intention to spend the rest of our life together. But he has recently gone through trauma that deepened his relationship to Christ and now wants a Christian marriage. I am not Christian or called by Jesus. As it stands now, are we one flesh? (Mark 10:6-8) Can I be saved by him? (Corinthians 7:12-16) Would staying together constitute a new choice to be unequally yoked (2 Corinthians 6:14?) Would leaving each other constitute adultery? (Matthew 19:9) He wants to wait for me to find Jesus. I am pretty certain that won't happen. Please, someone, help me find the answers I seek. (So far, in other places that I've asked, people have responded by trying to convert me. And I'm totally happy to go through that exercise, with an open mind, again and again. But it would be really great if I could also receive answers to my questions.)