Kelly2363

Then we are done are we not @Alive?

I know that you are wilfully obstructing what I am saying @Alive and I am not afraid to say so plainly. Let others make their own mind up about what I have said and let it stand accordingly. To suggest that I am speaking about anything other than what believers can do when they fail to embrace the Cross of Christ unto death - And when I reference a malady that is on the churches and express an understanding that the occult is the very fabric of the fallen body - its mind in the flesh and its ambition in its will and the same being expressed across generations by both believers and cited in their lives is frankly only resisted for one reason. It is because you cannot bear with the claim that the churches in many places are utterly corrupt and have overthrown any semblance of godliness other than to walk in a parade. Do you think that Isaac Newton was an unbeliever - or that many occultists in the 19th century did not flood the land out of the churches? They most assuradely did and it was a scientific rationale predicated on opening up the very fabric of the cosmos that gave them cover. We imagine that we can speculate on things that far greater minds have fallen foul of - is pure vanity - no matter than we are born again. Perhaps you desire a few pleasant sayings or a few lecture notes or a few Scriptural citations. I think not. Shalom @Alive.

What do you make of this? Isaac Newton is arguably accredited with writing the most important work of modern science, Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica was first published in 1687. What is not known generally is that like Pythagoras of the ancient world, Isaac Newton was also an occultist. What follows is a partial transcript of a speech made by John Maynard Keynes in 1946 to celebrate the tercentenary of Newton’s birth in 1642. “I believe that the clue to his mind is to be found in his unusual powers of continuous concentrated introspection. A case can be made out, as it also can with Descartes, for regarding him as an accomplished experimentalist. Nothing can be more charming than the tales of his mechanical contrivances when he was a boy. There are his telescopes and his optical experiments, These were essential accomplishments, part of his unequalled all-around technique, but not, I am sure, his peculiar gift, especially amongst his contemporaries. His peculiar gift was the power of holding continuously in his mind a purely mental problem until he had seen straight through it. I fancy his pre-eminence is due to his muscles of intuition being the strongest and most enduring with which a man has ever been gifted. Anyone who has ever attempted pure scientific or philosophical thought knows how one can hold a problem momentarily in one’s mind and apply all one’s powers of concentration to piercing through it, and how it will dissolve and escape and you find that what you are surveying is a blank. I believe that Newton could hold a problem in his mind for hours and days and weeks until it surrendered to him its secret. Then being a supreme mathematical technician he could dress it up, how you will, for purposes of exposition, but it was his intuition which was pre-eminently extraordinary - ‘so happy in his conjectures’, said De Morgan, ‘as to seem to know more than he could possibly have any means of proving’. The proofs, for what they are worth, were, as I have said, dressed up afterwards - they were not the instrument of discovery.” “Why do I call him a magician? Because he looked on the whole universe and all that is in it as a riddle, as a secret which could be read by applying pure thought to certain evidence, certain mystic clues which God had laid about the world to allow a sort of philosopher’s treasure hunt to the esoteric brotherhood. He believed that these clues were to be found partly in the evidence of the heavens and in the constitution of elements (and that is what gives the false suggestion of his being an experimental natural philosopher), but also partly in certain papers and traditions handed down by the brethren in an unbroken chain back to the original cryptic revelation in Babylonia. He regarded the universe as a cryptogram set by the Almighty - just as he himself wrapt the discovery of the calculus in a cryptogram when he communicated with Leibniz. By pure thought, by concentration of mind, the riddle, he believed, would be revealed to the initiate. He did read the riddle of the heavens. And he believed that by the same powers of his introspective imagination he would read the riddle of the Godhead, the riddle of past and future events divinely fore-ordained, the riddle of the elements and their constitution from an original undifferentiated first matter, the riddle of health and of immortality. All would be revealed to him if only he could persevere to the end, uninterrupted, by himself, no one coming into the room, reading, copying, testing all by himself, no interruption for God’s sake, no disclosure, no discordant breakings in or criticism, with fear and shrinking as he assailed these half-ordained, half-forbidden things, creeping back into the bosom of the Godhead as into his mother’s womb.” In speaking about Newton’s chest of papers which were opened after his death Keynes writes: “Another large section is concerned with all branches of apocalyptic writings from which he sought to deduce the secret truths of the Universe - the measurements of Solomon’s Temple, the Book of David, the Book of Revelations, an enormous volume of work of which some part was published in his later days. Along with this are hundreds of pages of Church History and the like, designed to discover the truth of tradition. A large section, judging by the handwriting amongst the earliest, relates to alchemy - transmutation, the philosopher’s stone, the elixir of life. The scope and character of these papers have been hushed up, or at least minimised, by nearly all those who have inspected them. About 1650 there was a considerable group in London, round the publisher Cooper, who during the next twenty years revived interest not only in the English alchemists of the fifteenth century but also in translations of the medieval and post- medieval alchemists. There is an unusual number of manuscripts of the early English alchemists in the libraries of Cambridge. It may be that there was some continuous esoteric tradition within the University which sprang into activity again in the twenty years from 1650 to 1670. At any rate, Newton was clearly an unbridled addict. It is this with which he was occupied ‘about 6 weeks at spring and 6 at the fall when the fire in the elaboratory scarcely went out’ at the very years when he was composing the Principia - and about this he told Humphrey Newton not a word. Moreover, he was almost entirely concerned, not in serious experiment, but in trying to read the riddle of tradition, to find meaning in cryptic verses, to imitate the alleged but largely imaginary experiments of the initiates of past centuries. Newton has left behind him a vast mass of records of these studies. I believe that the greater part are translations and copies made by him of existing books and manuscripts. But there are also extensive records of experiments. I have glanced through a great quantity of this at least 100,000 words, I should say. It is utterly impossible to deny that it is wholly magical and wholly devoid of scientific value; and also impossible not to admit that Newton devoted years of work to it.”

Then just read the publications of the Theosophical Society and the raft of scientists who have embraced its meaning in the last 40 years. Or ask yourself why so many believers now find it increasingly difficult to accept the biblical account of the creation of Adam and have embraced a lie that occultist expressly held to be true for centuries from every corner of the globe. Not just a corner here or there - but the entire globe. The church largely called these things superstition - and Justin hates that fact and asserts that some men including right back to the fourth century have suppressed supernatural realities. Dear God - are we mad? Do we want to see supernatural realities or can we settle miracles performed in the name of Jesus and in the power of His name?

Thats not the point is it? The point is that the church kept these things hidden for millennia precisely because it understood the gravity of the risk attached to expressing essentially occult (hidden things) to the men who would use them to corrupt society and drive science for generations leading to the man of Sin. What is visible in the Scripture even of itself is capable of informing the hidden agenda of occultists - but what is visible in the books of Enoch are pure occult knowledge. And so when a professor decides to give it a substance that was never permitted - apart from a few in the early church - by utilising an argument that exposes the hidden ambitions of Satan to so many believers that cannot even walk a single day in the spirit - then that is a very serious and likely harmful thing to do.

Aye - it may well be brother - but it won't be gibberish to everyone in the OP.

It is important to state openly that the issue is not an issue of accuracy as to the claim of divine beings - as expressed in Psalm 82 and cited by the Lord in John 10:35 to defend Himself against an accusation of blasphemy because being a mere man - He made Himself equal with God. That is not the issue - so any argument that reverts around that claim is frankly futile and inevitably misleading. The issue is not even the complexity of the claim that these divine beings (elohim) rebelled against God and became the teachers of men. The issue is the validity and purpose of expressing those claims to the church. I know, because I began to study the occult from the age of seven years old - when I was in the church and had access to many books that today would be difficult to find. What we have now are prototype libraries that reflect the development of occult thinking and ambition in all societies across the industrial world - And the book of Enoch whilst still held in contempt in scientific circles was treasured and loved in occult circles in the USA and the UK over 150 years ago. This OP was to cite 1 Enoch and the part cited had to do with how men came to know how to smelt metals and read astrological meanings into the terrestrial from the celestial. It expressly cites sorcery and how to understand its meaning. What we now call science is a rationalisation based on observable and reputable observations - but the occult is about science - philosophy and religion. It is a syncretic ambition by men and angels to remove from any true need to know God and to speak of divine beings instead. Anything that lends itself to that effect is an abomination. blavatsky-on-the-book-of-enoch.pdf

Did you know that this program in type was first formed in the 19th century and was written down in occult circles and expressed as theosophy? And I don't mean simply that we need to review church history - as you have prescribed - but that the very same and precise argument was formed and gave rise to Eastern and Western syncretic philosophy - involving physical science and included the then first translation of the book of Enoch as a definite source and affirmation of the precept of the Divine Council. Given that it is a simple matter to read just two small paragraphs - and given that you have such a strong claim, then I cannot but believe that you haven't a formulation that can be explained properly and so form a program. Just as I can do precisely the same thing and demonstrate that the precept of this OP is occult and first found its meaning in writings that are so academic that even today very serious PhD professors are members of the society that is now named after the claim and the founder.

What program?

Seeing as my comments cause so much consternation and seeing that I am set into the frame of a foolish person and a contentious man - then as my last post I will post an few paragraphs from an introduction to a book that I wrote to explain the effects that are now upon us and which we can all see about us - yet which we are seemingly powerless to restrain or answer. Many believers speculate how it is that Satan, though he knows the Scripture well enough, is yet unable to desist from his self-evident destructive course. What we miss, is that Satan was cast down from the sides of the north in Heaven aeons ago when he first desired to be like God. Everything that follows that singular act of pride has to do with God’s own remedy for disarming him in a just and righteous way. Adam was the beginning of that as far as men are concerned, in that he was in the likeness of Him who was to come. That Adam sinned, changed nothing of that ambition of God. It served to reveal the promised seed, being Christ Himself, by whom the Father has reconciled all things in heaven and on the earth to Himself, through the Cross. Today, Satan, along with principalities and powers of wickedness in high places are disarmed, and those who have Christ are over them in Him according to Christ Himself. I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers. Indeed it could be argued that eschatological doctrines have done as much to harm the flocks as any other heretical determination has done. It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded, and therefore, there is no immediate reason to be concerned - even when it is self-evident that we may be living selfish lives with little or no fruit of the Spirit. By making the signs of the times a focus we have missed our own conduct. This is not a judgmental attitude on my part. My concern is one given by the Father on the day I believed and, therefore, has been moderated by the love of the Father into always seeking to know where mercy triumphs over judgement. In that mind, I am against the prophets. No other group has done more to harm the church than have the prophets. Moreover, the Lord Himself has a remedy for these things, and it is in His remedy that my hope resides, by faith. That does not include laying waste to believers in a spirit of condemnation. It will mean standing against those who call themselves prophets. Or else whether they call themselves prophets or not, who nevertheless seek to direct the household of God in a mind of prophecy. Unfortunately, there is a very real difficulty for anyone desiring to grasp why the prophetic ministry is so vulnerable to deception. As a former occult theosopher my own insights only serve as a benefit when I set those things alongside my own calling. It is only then that the often seeming bizarre activities of those ministries claiming to be prophetic, can be set in balance. The difference between a natural prophet and a sorcerer is the difference between anointing. This book is intended to draw that concern out into the open. It could be expressed as a concern for apostasy. This work is finished and covers three decades of testing and enquiry. Whether it produces an outcome in keeping with my own hope is not something I can enter into. Now completed I will walk away without turning back. This is not in a poor spirit, but simply because to do otherwise would be to direct its meaning rather than trusting in the Lord. Again, I have no view of its possible effect beyond what the Lord has shown me in hope, by seeking His face. I do know that others share my concerns, but I also believe that my concerns extend beyond the fact of the present deception. In fact I take the view that apostasy of the church has not yet happened. Further, that real apostasy at the end of this age is more perverse and diabolical than anyone can easily lay hold of. It is that full and irredeemable apostasy of the church, that concerns myself. The times we live in will present the separation necessary for judgement to begin in the Household of God. When that separation is made, then I will stand. I am and will remain, against the prophets.

Perhaps you should read what is said and not tell a former occult theosophic priest what the occult is. I have emboldened your words and all I can say to you now is to read what is being said in this OP because you are missing the most basic reality of all. In Just the very post before your own - where I am called a fool - the author tells us, "This book is informative and gives much information on the spiritual realm that our Bibles allude to without details. But it also refers to the coming judgements and wrath of God upon this wicked world in our last days." You would imagine that the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ had not been written and left unsealed for our learning and correction.

And all of this to uphold a blasphemous book and an occult oracle. Its no wonder the church is in ruins.

Testing the spirits is one thing - declaring those spirits to be of God is another. I don't play with words @Marathoner. And those who make of words a rubric are either prophets or else sorcerers. So show me from the library of that man who's body is now buried by the tree where he used to pray - where he asserts the same confidence you have asserted of his library wherein you first read Enoch and tested the spirits so as to find it to be of God. Do that - and we can settle the matter can we not?

The earliest reference to Son of Man is found in Daniel. “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. “And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." You say that you have tested the spirits of the book of Enoch - of visions - and found it to be a true prophecy and of God. By that means you make of yourself a prophet. Then receive the portion of a prophet to an end of judgement.

To be clear then - I have stated precisely what the occult is and that Satanism is a separate thing. I have not talked in circles and so I don't receive the rebuke. You have absolutely no comprehension what the occult is and neither the central meaning of Satanism. But at least your comments afford another to take joy - and in that we are both rid of a needless argument. The book of Enoch is a blasphemous and occult gateway and should be thrown into the fire.

You know not what the occult is. All men have its meaning in their flesh - its power - its fuel - And its ambition. We are the fly trap in your analogy. Why do we always look to others and refuse to see our own flesh? As to Satan - he doesn't teach men about God - he utterly depends on men teaching men about God. We do that and then we stumble our children and others right into the open arms of an enemy who thanks us for our children and thence makes of some of them his best men. I am astonished that we still hold to childish accounts about what Satanism is. Not chiefly religious institutions - but an effect coming out of the very church. We cannot serve Satan directly unless we have first believed that God exists. We cannot oppose God unless we first believe that God is. Why else do we believe that judgement begins in the household of God?

This is rather like saying that a person only gets into Satanism by choosing to follow Satan. That has an element of truth in it because you cannot be a Satanist unless you first believe in God. Whereas, the occult is open to everyone regardless of their beliefs because it speaks of the mind and the powers that the mind possesses fuelled by the flesh.

You read Hebrew so go and read 1 Samuel 28 and Exodus 13 and if you can read Greek also then read Galatians 5. Then come back and explain to me what the occult is and what the natural mind is. I am not interested in seminaries or preacher -speak'.

And the book of Enoch is a gateway into the occult and to sorcery. As are the Scriptures (though not by intention) - the difference between the two is settled right in that passage from Exodus 13 which I cited. Finally, if you grasp the awful implication of that meaning you may also then understand why the Apostle Paul cites sorcery as a fruit of the flesh in Galatians 5:20. If sorcery or witchcraft is a fruit of the flesh then in what way would it benefit Satan to give us a book that tells us that Armers taught the solution of sorcery? The Lords' answer to the flesh was the Law of God and the covering of the mind so that His word would be in their mouths (the priests) and the same Lord gave us the Cross so that the old man would be put away through death and a new man raised up into newness of life. The book of Enoch has no such restraints. It is a gateway book into the occult and to sorcery. Shalom.

@Hopefully Psychical Reality The name Endo’r or En’Dor comes from two Hebrew words meaning spring or fountain and dwelling. Ordinarily, therefore, En’Dor would mean the dwelling by the spring or the fountain of the ancient dwelling. The Hebrew says בְּעֵ֥ין דּֽוֹר Eyn-Doʾr, translated Endor. The various roots of these two words seem somewhat strange at first glance but will make a great deal of sense later. The root words mean eye; well; surface; appearance; spring” and the second word means “generation. Therefore: Eyn eye; well; surface; appearance; spring. Doʾr generation” past present and future. There are eight specific uses of בְּעֵ֥ין (Noun), one of which is 1 Samuel 28:7. There are also many conjugations of the root, one of which is עֵינֶ֔יךָ. “And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand, the Lord brought you out of Egypt” Exodus 13:9 . The expression “on your forehead” contains the Hebrew Eyn, and a literal meaning would be between the eyes. The Hebrew is בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֔יךָ in verse nine, and the same expression is repeated in verse sixteen as עַל־יָ֣דְכָ֔ה וּלְטוֹטָפֹ֖ת בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֑יךָ where we read “So it shall serve as a sign on your hand and as phylacteries on your forehead, for with a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.” Exodus 13:16. In verse nine we read the explanation for why this is commanded.תּוֹרַ֥ת יְהוָ֖ה בְּפִ֑יךָ כִּ֚י. It is so “the law of the Lord may be in your mouth.” לְא֜וֹת עַל־יָדְךָ֗ וּלְזִכָּרוֹן֙ בֵּ֣ין עֵינֶ֔יךָ לְמַ֗עַן תִּהְיֶ֛ה תּוֹרַ֥ת יְהוָ֖ה בְּפִ֑יךָ כִּ֚י. Just speaking about the place name of the witch of En'dor takes us into a reality that is so grave a meaning that it transports itself right into the Law of God in the mouths of the priests of Israel. So the Witch of En'Dor was practising necromancy and by her mind she called the prophet Samuel up from his grave to speak directly with King Saul. So I have asked you what necromancy is.

To suggest that I may not agree with your OP is understating things considerably. And the reason why I take that position is because these things of fallen angels are discussed like a Halloween night out is thought to be a mere fact of sweeties with no substance. Then you seemingly innocently infer my position defies that I see the book of Enoch and all this subject of the occult as an abomination - so you tell me that astrology is necromancy. So what is necromancy?

Are you telling me that I find astrology exceptional or making a semantic point?

I took the liberty of opening your reply to @Diaste up because it was caught up in the quotation mask of your post and so wasnt really easily seen.

It is a deception and you began it in this instance in the first post. You cited the names of fallen angels from a book that is being pressed as a means of establishing that evil spirits teach men how to do exceptional things. And regardless as to the validity of the claim itself as a principle of occult predications - when I post a passage of Scripture being, Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. They said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and burn them thoroughly.” And they used brick for stone, and they used tar for mortar. They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. The Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them" you then ask me "Are the structures “in question” now left over from what they were stopped from building?" Is that intended to be a sincere question borne out of a desire to know truth? If it is then receive the only account you have from the Scripture that tells us that there is no end to what men can do when their collective skills are allowed to work against God.

Forums are for making points - the local church is for growth. I missed nothing.