not an echo

Hello all, This post concerns a video thread that I now have on Worthy Christian Forums that is like a companion thread to this one. I hope that it will be of a help in better understanding some things that I share in this thread---things that I believe God has seen fit to reveal to us in Scripture, especially in The Revelation. Following is the title to the thread, with a link to it: Possible World Stage Reset for Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/298506-possible-world-stage-reset-for-daniels-70th-week/)

The video of this thread stems in large part from thoughts that I share in my thread titled The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/). That thread was the first one I ever started on Worthy Christian Forums and would be like a companion thread to this one. Both are part of a totally different pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture interpretation that I have. Following is a link to my master thread for that interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Hello all, On my part, I have long found the focus of this video excerpt very interesting...

Hello Diaste, As I indicated at the end of my previous post (page 173, post 5), this post will wrap up my contribution to your thread. I have remained pure in heart and prayerful in the course of my every reply, and I hope that when I am finished here, you will be able to perceive this, whatever your perception has been along the way. Whatever may be your reply to this post, you can now consider the sum of what I have put forth in the course of my 10 posts to be representative of what my answer would be. If I have misrepresented anything that you have put forth, this has not been my intention, and I humbly apologize in advance. I have perfect peace before Almighty God. I have been somewhat bewildered by my understanding of some things you have said in the course of your thread. I think this is mostly because I took something for granted concerning your beliefs, something that is evidently not so. When I tell you what I'm speaking about, your first thought may be that this is off topic, and thinking this may cause you a measure of aggravation with me. But, I hope you will hear me out, as I submit that understanding the truth of what I am going to try to show you will be a major factor in your coming to the conclusion your are seeking concerning the question of your thread topic. Whereas I have long understood that we believe very differently concerning the timing of the rapture (or gathering) of the Church, I had no idea that we would differ so on our understanding of what it means to "sleep in Jesus" (I Thess. 4:14). This is the "something" that I was alluding to above. For me, my understanding of this is so basic and unwavering that I have felt that I must be misunderstanding you. Following are some things you've said that have made me wonder (all emphasis mine)... And... And... And finally, this that you said concerning Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:14, which evidently stems from your question marks concerning those "which sleep in Jesus"... As I look back on my life, it seems that from the time I first ever heard anything said about a dead person being asleep, I would think only in terms of the person's body. Moreover, in the course of some 40 years of Bible reading and study, my attention has never been drawn to a Scripture that gave me pause to think otherwise. For me, that the soul of a saved person goes to Heaven to be with God and all those who have gone on before is so basic a Bible truth that I am not even in the remote proximity of thinking otherwise. The account of Stephen when he was stoned is a case example of my position. Consider from Acts 7... 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep (i.e., his body succumbed). Jesus, when He was talking about the physical death of Lazarus, used terms indicating his state as "sleep" and "death" interchangeably (Jn. 11:11-14). And, such is not just the case with the saved, as we see in Daniel 12... 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Scripture consistently supports that it is the body alone that will "sleep in the dust of the earth". Much of what I show in my seventh post (page 159, post 2) reinforces this and from various angles. Of that post, you were quite negative and didn't see how what I was showing related to your thread. Your thread title is Who is Resurrected and When? How did what I show relate to this? Consider: If the souls of all who are saved are taken to Heaven when their body succumbs, dies, or goes to sleep, what would be the purpose of the GWTJ for them, unless their eternity is not actually determined until it is seen how their deeds measure up at the GWTJ? See the problem? When I try to apply my logic to what I hear you saying---or wrestling with---this would mean that someone whose soul has actually been in Heaven could possibly end up in Hell. I'm thinking that you are surely not thinking this, but it seems to me this is an implication of your thinking. On my part, what I'm speaking about here at least eliminates one possibility, helping to narrow down to one what option you have as an answer to your question. I have also gotten the impression that you may believe the souls of some who have been saved go to Heaven when their body dies, but that this doesn't mean the souls of all who have been saved go to Heaven when their body dies. Like you, for example, Diaste. If the soul of anyone who has been saved goes to Heaven when their body dies, why would you question whether your soul will go to Heaven when your body dies? Going in another direction, Paul said the following in I Thessalonians 4 (and carefully note my takes)... 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (those whose bodies had died), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them (the souls of them) also which sleep in Jesus (the saved whose bodies had died) will God bring with Him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (for the gathering) shall not prevent them which are asleep (those whose bodies have already died). 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (the bodies of those who had been saved) shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (raptured/gathered by the angels) with them (those whose bodies had just been reunited with their souls) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever (both those reunited with their bodies and those raptured/gathered) be with the Lord. As can be seen, when "asleep" and "sleep" are understood to only be in reference to the body, the understanding is simple. I don't see anything that may be construed to be "soul sleep" consistently supported by Scripture. I almost forgot. Concerning the "phrasing" of verse 14 being to you "a bit awkward", you need to do something with this rather than to suggest that "Paul must have been tired or in a hurry because he doesn't normally write like that." If that is your recourse on something that you struggle to understand, where does it stop? I mean, allowing for such a possibly, can we really count on anything that Paul said? I cannot help but to think of what Peter said in II Peter 3... 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. One can suppose a lot of things. The imagination of mankind is boundless and vain. Just to clarify, my statement was just a nice way of saying that this is such a self-evident truth that it is not reasonable "to suppose" otherwise. Like Paul when he said, "For I reckon (Gk. logizomai / also translated suppose) that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom. 8:18). Mainly because of who is specifically identified at that time in the scripture. If I say we are seeing a group of resurrected believers in the passage in question I'm adding to the description of the group. "Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands." The myriads are angels, living creatures and elders. There no language here to even imply there are believers redeemed in Christ from Adam to the 2nd advent in this scene. If that language exists, please post it. Rev 5:1-10 describes who is in the scene. While elders and angels and living creatures are described, no vast group redeemed from Adam to 2nd advent is. The closest we see the saints in heaven at this point is the prayer of the saints. No saints bodily. No souls of saints, just the prayers of the saints; which are held in bowls by the elders. This is the song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10You have made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign uponb the earth.” So the idea this is the saints singing this song is not supported by the text in v 9-10. Even if I agree 'them' is 'us', there is still no written evidence here, among all the specific and stunning detail in this scene, of a vast group of saints from all time. Again, it's a bold assumption. Many make the same error. They shouldn't. It's a terrifying thing. Concerning your last few sentences, those whom John is referring to in Revelation 5:9 are saying this to the Lamb in their song, "for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..." This does not ring of just a handful of people. But, whether a few, a few hundred, or a few hundred million, on the basis of what Scripture would we conclude that only some of the saved and not all of the saved (who had died up until the time of John's invite) would be present in Heaven? Whether John actually saw all of them, all of them would have been there. Personally, I would submit that if John saw any of them, he saw all of them. I can't see any of 'em missing this ceremony! Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling. If it's an assumption, it's based upon what is consistently revealed to us throughout Scripture and the logical answer to this question: All Scripture considered, who else would these have been? ... It's possible this group is redeemed believers from all time, but that isn't established here. So, where is it explicitly stated this group is every believer from Adam to 2nd advent? I'll even accept indirect evidence. I don't see the idea in scripture anywhere. Are you not by such thinking essentially calling into question the very concept you have heretofore been a stringent stickler to---that being your position on Israel and the Church? I think of this portion of Jesus' intercessory prayer, recorded in John 17... 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me. 22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one: 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world. When you say "that isn't established here", my first thought is that "here" it may not be established to your satisfaction, but we are not talking only about here. This is like a single exhibit in a court case. Please don't dismiss all the other evidences I have shown when I'm showing you another exhibit. With all the other evidences I have shown, consider for example the inclusiveness of Paul's words in the following passages: Romans 12:5, I Corinthians 12:12-27, Galatians 3:26-29, and Ephesians 4:11-16. You are quite sure. This is why you throw up the above straw man. What I said is: Can you answer any of this? I never even implied God doesn't know. I asked if you knew how God viewed the group. I asked if you know, and from scripture can you identify, the group by attributes. My impression was that you were asking what makes "the saints, the meek, the priests and kings of God" what they are, as if this would not be known until the GWTJ---except possibly in the case of some. I understand now (I believe ) that you were asking about their "exact identity" meaning like, coming out of Daniel's 70th Week. My statements have been from the perspective that their "exact identity" is known by the Father as being children of His, whatever they might have been through. As an example from scripture for concise identification we see this: Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Immediately we see John doesn't answer. Why? Simply, he doesn't know. The elder asks, “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” Why would the elder ask this if the identity of this group was already known? You seem to know. A lot of people claim to know. John, who walked with Jesus, didn't even know. For clarification, the question of your last paragraph stems from what John writes concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17 and of his indication that he did not know who they were (vss. 13-14). My position is that this great multitude is all of God's children who were a part of the New Testament Christian era up until the time of the gathering (e.g., Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:17) and those who had gone on before them, now in their resurrection bodies. Trying to envision the great multitude John was here seeing, I can understand him experiencing some bewilderment. Try to imagine the difference between a multitude made up of one century of Christians versus a multitude made up of 20 centuries of Christians---each century compounding the number. Easily millions and millions, or even billions. It's easy to imagine John wondering, "Where in the world did all these come from? Whoa!" Considering the great tribulation Christians as a whole have experienced since the time of Christ, I continue to marvel that so many opt to believe the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-17 to be Daniel's 70th Week martyrs---based only upon the words "great tribulation" (vs. 14). According to the evidence of Scripture, what evidence is there that such a multitude will be willing to be martyred during that time? As I've said before, if there is a great multitude doing anything during that time, it will be worshiping the beast. A stark unwillingness to repent and believe will characterize that time. We know that some will, but evidences indicate that the number will be relatively few (e.g., II Thess. 2:8-12; Rev. 9:20-21; Rev. 13:3-4). Also, we see their souls in Heaven, in Revelation 15:1-4. In other words, it is here that we see the 70th Week martyrs, not in Revelation 7:9-17. ... If this were the case then you have two times when people are sent to the lake of fire, once when He arrives, and once at the GWT. All who are damned to Hell will ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire. In the context of everything that has been revealed to us, my position would be that the "goats" of this judgment will be cast into the Hell of now (Gk. háidēs), as all the unsaved now are---like the rich man (Lk. 16:19-24ff), to ultimately be cast into the Hell of eternity (Gk. géenna/the Lake of Fire/Matt. 10:28; Mk. 9:43-48) as all the unsaved will be---again, like the rich man. Absolutely not. Do you not read? "And IF anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15 IF, IF, IF.... And, if your above quote is true, then the sheep and goats judgement is either false or wrong or an immense contradiction. The sheep and goats judgement is a deeds based judgement, deeds which were done and deeds which were not done but should have been. There is not one mention of faith or belief in that section of Matt 25. In that section of Matt 25 it was the lack of deeds that incriminated and the presence of deeds that justified. Concerning your opening line, that's not a very nice thing to ask me. Yes, I read and study and pray and seek the truth about most everything I find in God's Word, especially when there are evidences that things may not be what they look like on the surface. What I read in Revelation 20:15 is this: "And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15). Whosoever as in none exempted. It won't matter if it's a king or a pauper, a mass murderer or an unsaved school teacher, an unsaved pew polisher or the Pope. It won't matter. Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Nothing is said of those whose names are written there. Why? Because they are a part of "the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6). In the context of what we find concerning the GWTJ, I don't see the "IF THEN Boolean operator" you have wanted to apply to verse 15 carrying the weight that you have put on it. Concerning your next to last paragraph, you keep seeing the "deeds" that were done as being the determining factor. But, it is the tree that produces the fruit (or deeds), not the fruit that produces the tree. Consider afresh what Jesus said in Matthew 7... 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. At the GWTJ, the deeds (or fruit) will be displayed, if you will, and what is displayed will be the incriminating evidence that those here judged (the trees) were corrupt. Their being damned will be on account of their names not being written in the Book of Life---meaning they had not been saved or made new (e.g., II Cor. 5:17). Meaning they were still "thorns" or "thistles" (Matt. 7:16). As someone has rightly said, "Our problem goes deeper than the sins we commit." We are sinners---corrupted fallen humanity---in dire need of God's saving grace and what He did for us through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. His saving grace is our only hope of salvation. And this is not imparted to us because of our works or deeds (Rom. 4:3-5, 16). I know, I know. Just saying. I feel compelled, even if off topic. But I'm almost through. Again, IF, IF, IF.... "And IF anyone was found whose name was NOT written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." But only those not found. That means some are found written therein. Many. Most, I hope. Concerning your last line, if some at the GWTJ "are found written therein", why would they be at this judgment? It is because of our truly receiving Jesus Christ as our Savior and being born-again that we go to Heaven when our body succumbs. If this is the case with one of God's children, this is the case with all of His children. As I said earlier, haven't you heretofore been a stickler to this very detail in your position and concept concerning the Church and Israel? I agree wholeheartedly with you concerning Abraham's seed. But, I get the impression that your concept of the GWTJ is that some who were Abraham's seed for a while may not end up being his seed. By all that you've said, it's easy to get the impression that you may wonder this same thing concerning yourself. I'm burdened to ask you this: Do you feel that your eternal destiny will not be made sure until your own deeds are judged at the GWTJ? Finally, I hope you will go back and look at my other posts in light of what I have shown in the course of them. Also, what I have discussed in this thread I regard as representing just a small grouping of prophetic puzzle pieces that must fit the complete picture that will one day be revealed. While what I have shown helps to establish the truth of my position(s) to my satisfaction, I understand that everyone must be persuaded in their own mind. I hope that what I have put forth helps you (and all) to that end. Here's a list of my previous posts: (page 122, post 8), (page 124, post 3), (page 128, post 2), (page 131, post 7), (page 139, post 9), (page 141, post 7), (page 159, post 2), (page 170, post 7), and (page 173, post 5). NOTE: Before submitting my reply, I did some double checking on my post info and noticed that there had been a shift. I don't know how often this may happen. I can only guess that someone has deleted some of their posts. For now, I'm going to go back and correct the post info in my other posts. In the future, these may end up only approximate. The reason I gave this info was that I had thoughts of giving links to these in the future if this subject comes up in one of my own threads.

I feel, from decades of experience and listening, that Christians are prejudging vast groups. What is the exact identity of the saints, the meek, the priests and kings of God? What did they do? How does God view His saints? The 'saints' of the Most High...who are they? What did they do? What attributes do they possess? Does God say here? No. It's a general statement Christians interpret as whomever strides through the door of the building on Sunday. Continuing from my previous post (page 170, post 10), this was one of your replies to my third little study (page 128, post 3). Concerning your first paragraph, I'm not really sure just what you are getting at here. But, "the exact identity of the saints, the meek" and "the priests and kings of God" is most assuredly known by God. I think of Jesus' words, "I am the Good Shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine" (Jn. 10:14). Paul said, "But if any man love God, the same is known of Him" (I Cor. 8:3), and "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His" (II Tim. 2:19). Though it may be as you say that "Christians are prejudging vast groups", it must be remembered that "the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart" (I Sam. 16:7). Concerning your second paragraph and your question about who the 'saints' of the Most High are who are spoken of in Daniel 7:18, we both know that it is not "whomever strides through the door of the building on Sunday." It would be those who are 'saints' indeed. Who then are they? Four verses further in Daniel 7 we read... 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. This is one of those prophetic puzzle pieces that interlocks with those we find in Revelation 20:4-6, even this piece: "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" (vs. 4). These pieces also interlock with what we find five verses further in Daniel 7... 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him. The 'saints' being spoken of here are the same as all who are spoken of as saints throughout the New Testament (over 50 references)---none excluded. Does this mean that all are what they should be? By no means. Even Paul would have pulled up short of saying this (Rom. 7:18-25). Not even one of God's saints will be what he or she should be until God finishes the conforming of His children "to the image His Son" (Rom. 8:29). No. " And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." has an antecedent, and it is " And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." You said in an earlier post the antecedent to "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge." is a chapter earlier and they are of the army that comes with Christ to slay millions. You also said "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge." and "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." are two distinct groups classified by the term 'they' and 'Them'. 'Them' in the 1st sentence is not them same group as 'They' in the last sentence. 'They' in the last sentence refers to "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." And that's all by what you said. So the promise to live and reign with Christ for 1000 years is for these only: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." Although, the thrones we see and the 'them' seated upon is the destiny of those we see here: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands." For clarification, the following is the verse of our discussion and the highlighting I am speaking of in what you quoted of me. From Revelation 20... 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The only reason for us to look for an antecedent in verse four is to discover who the first "they" and second "them" of this verse pertains to, as that information is outside this verse. Just to make sure there is no confusion concerning the first "they" and the second "them" of which I am speaking, here is a copy & paste of the above verse again, with these also indicated... 4 And I saw thrones, and they (the 1st they) sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them (the 2nd them): AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Realize that whether it is considered and/or discovered who the first "they" and the second "them" is in reference to, this does not change the fact that two groups are being spoken of in this verse, nor does it change the fact that the last "they" is inclusive of all who are spoken of in this verse. The truth of this is elementary and reinforced in the next verse, where "the rest of the dead" are differentiated from all of those just spoken of. And, John says of all of those just spoken of, "This is the first resurrection" (vs. 5). Moreover, what I have said about the last "they" in verse four is reinforced in the culminating statement of verse six... 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. I feel that you have so hyper-focused on verse four and your straitjacketed position on it that you miss what is there apparent, along with what is afterwards and elsewhere supported. It's clear this is a deeds based Judgment. Just like in Rev 20. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. I mean, I read 'deeds' here and I don't even have to twist anything to find the idea. This and the following are a couple of your replies to the study I provided concerning The Parable of the Sheep and Goats (page 131, post 10). While it is understandable how a connection may be made between the GWTJ and the judgment of the sheep and goats, Scripture does not consistently support that these are the same judgment. The judgment of the sheep and goats concerns the survivors of Daniel's 70th Week and happens near the beginning of Christ's reign (Matt. 25:31-32). Those judged to be sheep are granted the following blessing from Christ: "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (vs. 34). The GWTJ happens after the end of Christ's reign (Rev. 20:11-15). Based upon everything the Bible teaches us concerning this judgment and grace and works, we can understand that the "deeds" spoken of during the GWTJ will be deeds that will incriminate, not justify, deeds that will expose, not cover. At this judgment, the deeds of those being judged will irrefutably manifest that these people were corrupted fallen human beings in dire need of salvation---but not saved. What is found "written in the books" (vs. 12) will reveal what these people are. What is "not found written in the Book of Life" (vs. 15)---their name---will seal their ultimate doom. That seems odd, doesn't it? We are resurrected and taken off the earth, transformed, meet the Lord in the air, to be forever with the Lord, but this same group then is judged because there are goats among the sheep? Remember your position here that it's all believers from all time that are taken at the 1st resurrection. There are no goats in that resurrection. My statement is from the position of my different pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/). The resurrection and the gathering of the Church happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, at the time of the appearing of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31). This will take place seven plus years before His Second Advent. Akin to what is often expressed in connection with the common pre-trib view, Christ will come for His Church at the rapture and later with His Church at His Second Advent. According to the way the prophetic puzzle pieces fit together (e.g., Matt. 25:31-34; Rev. 20:1-6), after the Battle of Armageddon and the binding of Satan, the survivors of Daniel's 70th Week will be judged. Though they are not resurrected (because they had not died), they will "[have] part in the first resurrection" (Rev. 20:6) right along with the rest of God's children. Not at all. Not by works, lest any man should boast. This was the first reply you made to my fifth study (page 140, post 2). But then, you go in a direction that is reflected by your response to what I say below... What could it possibly convey other than 'the dead were judged according to their works'? That's so plain even a child could understand it. By our discussions, it is evident that we do not get each other's understanding on the faith and works question. On my part, the importance of "works" is expressed excellently in James 2:14-26, but this needs to be understood in the light of what is revealed to us elsewhere in Scripture. Otherwise, things can get terribly lopsided, with damnable heresy being the result. All fine and good with Satan of course. A key to understanding the thrust of what is being taught in James is found in the word I show in bold, from James 2... 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man SAY he hath faith, and have not works? can faith (merely vocalized) save him? The way we would express this in Kentucky is "talk is cheap" or "actions speak louder than words." I like the saying, "Our talk talks and our walk talks, but our walk talks more than our talk talks." James, in his elaboration, says essentially the same thing in another way... 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James quickly points out that such faith, "if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (vs. 17). By his closing statement, we should all be able to relate, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (vs. 26). What has happened is that this simple teaching has got so distorted that for many, they think that "belief" in Christ is how they get their start, but how they finish---and everything in between---is up to them. Or maybe "mostly" up to them. Said another way, they hear that they need to "believe" in Jesus and what He did for them on the cross at Calvary, so they give verbal assent to that. Easy enough! Then, if so instructed, they may even "confess Him" with words that don't go any deeper than their vocal cords. Then, many start down a path of hoping that one day their good will outweigh their bad if something bad happens. All of this, and they may never know what it means to actually be saved, to actually be born-again, to actually give their heart to God and trust in and rely upon what He did for them through Jesus Christ. My experience and observation has been that many get drawn into going through some motions without giving any consideration to whether God is drawing them. Jesus said, "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (Jn. 6:44). Many go through some motions and get a little (or even a lot of) religion without actually getting saved. Jesus said to the religious Nicodemas, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me (Jn. 14:6). Many give lip service to this truth but go through their life as if the possibility of their going to the Father is mostly up to how they can do---not what He has done. Like, part of it is up to Christ, but most of it is up to them. Paul said, "For by grace are ye saved, through faith" (Eph. 2:8). A dead faith? Preposterous. But, a right faith? Mandatory. Paul also said, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justififieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:4-5). A dead faith? Again, preposterous. But, a right faith? Again, mandatory. I'll never forget the first time I saw what I am talking about illustrated with a chair. The conference speaker chose a chair that he had never sit in and started talking about all the positive elements of it and his "faith" that it would do what it was made to do---hold someone up that sit in it. Then, merely standing by the chair and pointing at it, he asked (by a show of hands) how many thought he had exercised "faith" in the chair. A few hands went up. He then asked what was wrong with those who didn't raise their hands and there were comments here and there about how he had not yet sit in the chair. He acknowledged the truthfulness of this observation and then continued with his example. Very carefully, he began to lower himself onto the chair, but in a strained manner, bracing one arm on his leg and the other arm on a nearby rail, still leaning forward, as if he was afraid that the chair would collapse under his full weight. Then he asked once again, "How about now, have I exercised faith in this chair?" Everyone was picking up on what he was doing now, and I don't remember anyone raising their hand that time. When he asked what the problem was then, several commented on how he was not really fully trusting in the chair. Then, he relaxed one arm and asked his question again, to the same sort of responses. He then explained how that this is the way that many are with Christ. They are relying on Him some, but they are also bracing themselves on their morality and their baptism and their giving and their sacrifices and, and, and---just in case. At this time, he raised up out of his strained position, explained how God wants us to fully rest in what He has done for us through Jesus Christ, and then just sat right down in the chair, relying totally upon it. He even raised his hands in the air and his legs off the floor, so that it would be apparent that he was resting 100% on the chair---reinforcing that His only hope of going to Heaven rested fully on what God had done for him through Jesus Christ. I've ended up going further with this post than what I had initially planned, but I've enjoyed it. Our power went off repeatedly last night, and I was afraid I would lose it, but I didn't. I hope it has been edifying. Just a couple other thoughts before moving on. Paul said, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). For me, I certainly believe in living unto the Lord, doing good works, walking the walk, or whatever one might prefer to call it. But, only from the perspective of gratitude. There is nothing that one can add to grace and it still be grace, except it be gratitude. In one of my Bibles, years ago, I wrote this in the margin beside of James 2:24-25---"It is faith alone that justifies, but faith that justifies is never alone." So, here I am "resting" in my desk chair, but working! I've rested in my desk chair and made hospital calls, encouraged people, counseled people, studied my Bible, developed Bible studies, prayed---repeat. Hey, every time I write out my offering check, or a check to some charitable organization, I'm resting in my desk chair. Good works. There's all kinds of work that needs to be done for Christ's Kingdom. And, we can do it all---while "resting" in Him! It is a bizarre notion to me to think in terms of doing anything further to make myself more God's child. That was taken care of when I was born-again. Like with my son. There is nothing he can do to make himself more my son. He's that by blood and his birth. Now, to be sure, there's been times when there were things he could do to make things better between us! Hmmm. If I don't stop here, I may never get done with this post! One more to come...

This isn't a thread for your take on the Pretrib Rapture. We are discussing Who is Resurrected, and When? in the context provided in the OP, with that evidence, and those conclusions. With these many long posts that fail to directly address the OP, this is looking more and more like an attempted derailing. I would ask you to stop doing this. Hello Diaste, First of all, I have no interest in derailing your thread. My seven posts so far merely represent some little studies and a systematic approach to answering your question and what has seemed to interest you in the course of your thread. What is on my heart is to use three more posts (this being one of them) to respond to the replies that you have made to the studies I have put forth. This is all that has been on my heart from the beginning. After this, it is already on my heart to be finished here at that time. When finished, my hope is that I will have made a worthy contribution to your thread. My 10 posts will amount to one thread page---not overmuch for a 170+ page thread, IMHO. When finished, on my part, I will courteously acquiesce to you having the last word(s), agree or not, in whole or in part. Okay. If that's true then what do we do with "they lived and reigned with Christ"? Beginning here, I want to now go back and speak to some of the replies you have made to the little studies I have provided. The above was from my first one (page 122, post 8). The answer to your question is quite simple and natural. The "they" you are speaking of is the last "they" of the sentence, and according to the context, includes everyone spoken of in the sentence. This is also reinforced in verse 6, which reads... 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. I hope you will go back and look again at all that I have showed. If you still do not agree, that's okay with me. I am helped by such discussions, and my prayer is that you will be as well, at least in some way. This seems to be pointing to the idea the saints make up the army. I would point out how we are enjoined from killing others. If the saints are the army then they are resurrected to immediately begin fighting a war and killing millions? Yeah...I think that's an implausible notion and a dangerous precedent; if that's where this is going. Some do think this is the case. In the course of your thread, it seems that the main problem you have concerning God's children being a part of the "armies" returning with Christ at His Second Advent is your thinking that it would not be appropriate for us to be involved in the blood shed and killing of the beast and those gathered with him. I can appreciate your aversion to such, but where do you get it that we will be involved in this way? We know that Jesus will be (Rev. 19:15), but it's not like He would need our help. The thing of our being a part of the "armies" does not necessitate that we fight at all. How many that have been in armies over the ages never actually took part in any combat? Most of those I know of who have been a part of our own U.S. military never actually were in combat. But, they were no less a part of our military. I can't say Diaste, perhaps when we are in our glorified bodies and realize the full extent of the evil gathered against Christ at His Second Advent, we will feel differently. Whatever the case, taking the position that we will not return with Him at His Second Advent is in conflict with what has been revealed to us (e.g., I Thess. 3:13; Jude 14; Rev. 17:14). Absolutely not. My word, that's an bold assumption. Where does scripture show such a group in heaven as you say? It's not in Rev 4 or 5. We do see this: "Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands." There are no believers here from Adam to John's time. Where do you get this? Your reply here was in response to the second part of my study (page 124, post 3). Just before what you show that John writes of in Revelation 5:11, he writes this... 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. So, John writes of his invite to take part in this ceremony, which was for the evident purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book. If all of God's children go to Heaven when their body dies (or goes to sleep), they would have all been in Heaven when John got his invite---whether he would have been allowed to see them or not. Consider my preceding study again (page 159, post 2), where I do a walk through of God's children and where they went when their time in this life was done---both in the O.T. days and into the N.T. days. Not only this, but I gave other supporting Scripture. In partial reply to that study, you make the statement, "So? People are in heaven. A bunch of people have lived and died and gone to heaven. I don't dispute that." If you don't dispute that, you have to concede that they would have been in Heaven when John got his invite. And, if you are not against using logic, you could rightly conclude that he saw them there, as evidenced by what he says in verses 9-10 above. If you do not believe that everyone who had died from Adam to the time that John got his invite was there, how would you arrive at such a conclusion---based on Scripture? Something for another thread? Perhaps. But something also related to this one. Yes. But just who is that? It's not defined. You assume and gap fill. Where does this say it's 'all believers from all time'? In fact the idea it's all believers from all time is an assumption based on the fallacy of gap filling. If it's an assumption, it's based upon what is consistently revealed to us throughout Scripture and the logical answer to this question: All Scripture considered, who else would these have been? More to come... (page 173, post 5)

Moving forward from my preceding post (page 141, post 7), you may remember times when I have said something to the effect that sometimes we can't see what the truth of the matter is until we discover what it can't be. I've experienced this myself. By the many things you have said in the course of your thread (my first 3 quotes of you above are merely examples), I believe this thinking may be a key to you arriving at some of the answers you are seeking. In contemplation of how to best lead in to what I would now like to speak to, consider what I quoted of you last. Your middle sentence is representative of what you have now stated many times. It is full of implications that should be considered in the light of more Scripture. While not what my focus will here be, what you say in the latter part of your middle sentence is an example. Where do you get that "most are found written in the Book of Life"? Jesus said, "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14). Turning to what I most want to focus upon, you state, "The rest of the dead wait till the 1000 years are finished and pass before the GWT..." Do you believe this concerning Enoch? Remember that he "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Where do you believe God took him? Backing up, what about Abel? He is mentioned just before Enoch in Hebrews 11, where it reads that he "offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" (vs. 4). While he was not taken in the manner that Enoch was, do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was? What about Noah? In Hebrews 11, he is mentioned next, after Enoch, and it is said of him that "he became heir of the righteousness which is by faith" (vs. 7). Do you believe God allowed him to go where Enoch was? What about Daniel and Job, whom God esteems on the highest level, with Noah (Ezek. 14:14)? And Adam, though nothing is mentioned of him in this regard, do you think God allowed him to go where his son and closest descendants went? Do you believe what you are saying when it comes to those who died and were "gathered to [their] people"? Like Abraham (Gen. 25:8), or Isaac (Gen. 35:29), or Jacob (Gen. 49:33)? What about Aaron (Num. 20:24), or Moses (Num. 27:13)? Can we not rightly suppose that this would be the case for all who were (and are) "Abraham's seed" (Gal. 3:29)? Are you believing that being "gathered to [their] people means grave wise? Or, would this mean being actually "gathered to [their] people", like where Enoch, Abel, and Noah were, which were their people? What about Elijah (II Kg. 2:1, 11)? If he or any of the foregoing are destined to yet stand before God at the GWTJ, what would the reason be? I mean, are you believing that they went on to Heaven, but they are going to be judged later concerning whether they get to stay there or not? Are you perhaps thinking that there is some difference that I am missing because the case was unique with Enoch and Elijah? If so, what about the others already mentioned? Or, what do you do with Moses being seen with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3-4)? What is it that you feel detracts from what Scripture is clearly supporting? More inclusive than what we have seen so far, in Jesus' reply to the Sadducees, "touching the resurrection of the dead" He asked them, "have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt. 22:31-32). So, where do you believe Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and all "the living" are now? Where is it that they are "living"? Consider what Jesus spoke concerning Lazarus, the rich man, and Abraham upon the death of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk. 16:19-31). How do you square what you have so many times said with the example of Lazarus? Or, what about the thief that was saved on the cross (Lk. 23:42-43)? What about Stephen when he was being stoned (Acts 7:54-60)? Are you seeing any dots that need to be connected here? The account says, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (vs. 59). To where do you believe his spirit would have been received? Paul speaks to this. First of all, he says, "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord" (II Cor. 5:6). Then he continues, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8). I'm reminded of what is said concerning Rachel when she was giving birth to Benjamin. "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin" (Gen. 35:18). Where do you believe her soul departed to? Paul speaks words that ring very similar! To the Philippians he said, "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you" (Phil. 1:23-24). Nearer to the actual time of his death, he told Timothy, "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand" (II Tim. 4:6). In consideration of what you have been wrestling with in Revelation 20, what do you make of the 144,000 in chapter 14? When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 1-3). What about the 70th Week martyrs in chapter 15? When they die, they are seen in Heaven (vss. 2-4). Are you believing that it is only these---or mostly these---whose souls will go on to Heaven when they die? I think of what Jesus said to Martha, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn. 11:26). At our church, when someone dies (meaning their body!), we never say they die. We say "they crossed over!" Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24). Certainly related, but going in a little different direction, note that the word "condemnation" that Jesus used in the above verse is from the Greek word krisis (G2920), which is almost always translated "judgment". Interestingly, and closely akin, Jesus earlier said to Nicodemus the following, from John 3... 17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Even more interesting is that the words "condemned" in verse 18 are from the Greek word krino (G2919), which is more usually translated "judged", AS IN THE EVENT OF THE GWTJ. Consider again, from Revelation 20... 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krino /G2919) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krino /G2919) every man according to their works. Do you believe what Jesus told Nicodemus holds for us as well, that "He that believeth on Him is not condemned (krino /G2919)"? I have often likened prophecies of the last days to prophetic puzzle pieces that are meant to fit together. My impression in the course of this thread is that much too often, there are pieces being looked at---the same pieces---over and over and over---but never being joined to their other related pieces. Even if we have all the pieces of a puzzle laying before us, if we only look at them and keep examining them and pointing out their peculiar shapes---without ever putting them together with the other related pieces---we never get any closer to seeing the puzzle come together. Never. All I'm trying to do Diaste is help with the assembling of the pieces. Don't forget that all I have shared in my previous posts supports the position I have expressed as well, which represents just a small portion of the overall picture. I hope you will go back and review my previous posts in light of the light that each contributes. More to come... (page 170, post 7)

Continuing from my preceding post (page 139, post 9) and remaining mindful of what I showed in the last half of it, how are we to understand what Jesus meant by the "last day" and Martha's concept of this? It is a help to remember that Jesus also spoke of a resurrection to "life" and a resurrection to "damnation" (Jn. 5:29). It is certainly easy to suppose that the "last day" resurrection Jesus was speaking of in John 6:39-40, 44, and 54 would have been the resurrection to "life" and the one that Martha had on her mind when thinking of Lazarus. Jesus also spoke of this resurrection as the "resurrection of the just" (Lk. 14:14). It is certainly easy to also suppose that the resurrection to "life" and of "the just" is the resurrection that Paul was inspired to write of in I Corinthians 15... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is the same event that he spoke of in I Thessalonians 4... 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I see nothing in Scripture that would suggest that the resurrection Paul spoke of should be taken as being anything other than the resurrection of "the just" to "life" that Jesus spoke of. Because we have evidences of when this resurrection occurs, this evidence will serve us concerning our "last day" question. Note that right after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians about "the dead in Christ" rising and those that "are alive and remain" being "caught up", he said this to them in chapter five... 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Consider: The "Day of the Lord" or "that day" that Paul spoke of above begins the same day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vs. 17). This is in fulfillment of the part of Joel's prophecy---quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20/Joel 2:31)---that concerns this day. Also, the event of the beginning of this day joins hard to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, at which time "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31). All these scriptures are like prophetic puzzle pieces that come together and interconnect with pieces we find in John's account of the opening of the 6th Seal. Also relating to the opening of the 6th Seal is the "great multitude" that John sees at this time, which understandably becomes a big focus of attention (Rev. 7:9-17)! Much suggests that the "last day" Jesus spoke of and that Martha had on her mind connects hard with the day that God's future judgment of this world will come---something immensely huge. I see a fitting parallel to this with the judgment of God that came on the world in Noah's day. If Noah, while preparing the ark, had of used a phrase like the "last day" while talking with his family about the pending flood that God had warned him of, the meaning for them at that time would have been quite clear---the "last day" for preparing for God's judgment. We know that Noah and his family were prepared for this---the same as we should be prepared now. A phrase like the "last day" spoken in reference to the time of God's pending judgment would not have fit any other day in Noah's time but this one, given in Genesis 7... 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, THE SAME DAY were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Likewise for the time in which we live. This is the day that all humanity needs to be prepared for, but relatively few will be---just like in Noah's time. What will that "last day" be like? Read Revelation 6:12-17. Interestingly, if you had looked in the ark that "seventeenth day" of the "second month" you would have seen a different "great multitude"! It could have been rightly said of Noah, his family, and all those animals that they "came out of great tribulation" too. Say what? You know, when "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" and "the earth was corrupt" and "filled with violence" (Gen. 6:5-13)---just like it is today. Ya need to think about what I'm showing ya Diaste. From a historical and worldwide perspective, if God's children are gathered today, could it be said of them and us that we "came out of great tribulation"? I'm not understanding why not. Perhaps those that think not will think otherwise before the week or month is out. Hmmm. Oops, I went off topic. Not forgetting everything else I have shown so far and what I am presently pointing out, I am not seeing anything that would suggest that the "resurrection of the last day" Jesus spoke of, which was the hope Martha had for Lazarus, is any day other than the day that the last days' DOTL judgment will commence, which will be preceded by the actual resurrection spoken of at this time and the gathering of those who "are alive and remain". This is an understanding that, for me, aligns best with everything else that has been revealed to us in Scripture. Hopefully it will be of some help to you in your own understanding. More to come... (page 159, post 2)

Continuing from my preceding post (page 131, post 7), in the course of your thread you consistently link the judgment of the "sheep" and "goats" (Matt. 25:31-46) with the Great White Throne Judgment, as you do in my first quote of you above (e.g., "It's best placed after the 1000 years"). I spoke to my position concerning the timing of this judgment in my preceding post. What I would like to do now is speak to what you say in the second quote I show of you concerning your position that the GWTJ is a "deeds based judgement". This may be the most important post that I make on your thread. I understand the similarities you have pointed out between the sheep and goat judgment and the GWTJ, but this does not mean they are the same judgment. Again, I speak to this in my previous post. Moreover, based only on what is revealed to us in Revelation 20:11-15, I can understand why you (or anyone) might see this as a "deeds based judgment". But, whatever we are believing about the teachings of the Bible, our understanding must align with everything that we find in the Bible. The direction that you take strongly suggests that one's salvation is in truth "deeds based" after all. Said another way, the way you state your position rings of what so many in the world have so long and erroneously believed, that when they stand before God, their deeds will be weighed in His balance and if their good outweighs their bad, He will allow them into His Heaven. Needless to say, on this hope, many are hoping that their good will be found to outweigh their bad. But, this possibility by no means aligns with the whole of what God has revealed to us. I am not saying that this is what you are indeed believing, as heretofore, you have not really gave me this impression. But now I wonder. Also, those that believe this way believe this in large part because of what is revealed in Revelation 20:11-15, notwithstanding what is revealed elsewhere. Just because Scripture reads that "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (vs. 12), this does not mean that this is a "deeds based judgment" on the order of what this phrase is commonly accepted to mean. Scripture clearly reveals that it is "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy" we are saved, "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5). Scripture clearly reveals that we are saved "by grace" through "faith" and "Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). Scripture clearly reveals that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). In our corrupted fallen condition, we cannot even be justified by keeping the law---which no one but Christ has successfully done anyway (e.g., Psa. 39:5; Rom. 7:18; Gal. 2:16). Even the most quoted Scripture in the Bible---John 3:16---should establish for us that our salvation will not be "deeds based". The closest thing in the Bible to something that could be construed to be deeds based would be what Jesus said in John 6:29---"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." I haven't noticed anywhere in the course of your thread where you have clarified or even hinted at it being this that you mean. By deeds based, I believe I am rightly taking it that you mean works based, and this concept is in serious conflict with the whole of Scripture. Is there a way to understand "they were judged every man according to their works" that will align with everything we find in Scripture? Of course there is, and when you see it, you won't be able to unsee it. Have you considered that what is found "written in the books" (vs. 12) represents the indictment against everyone that stands before God at this judgment that he or she is a corrupted fallen human---in need of salvation, but not saved? When I teach on this in a church service, I point out that the "books" being spoken of could easily be biographies, and if so, that everyone standing before God at the GWTJ would have one. I wouldn't argue about this. But whether so, my point is just as valid. I have always used a hymnal to represent a biography, and I will thumb through it and share about the life of a fictitious person who never got saved. Whatever good the fictitious person may have done, there will be all the bad as well---the evidence that he or she was a corrupted fallen human---far from perfect and in need of God's saving grace, but not saved. I will then use another hymnal, to represent my own biography. I will go through it as well, speaking of some of the good things I have done, but also showing the bad---the evidence that I am a corrupted fallen human as well---far from perfect and in need of God's saving grace. Then comes my favorite point. I like to drive home the fact that the only thing that separates me from any unsaved person is what is found on one page of the book. On that one page, there is an account of God dealing with me about my sinfulness and need for salvation, and my accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior. In other words, whether a hundred page or a 1000 page biography, the difference between a person that will go to Heaven and a person that will be separated from God to Hell is what can be found---or not found---on one page. Biographies or not, the same truth holds. I hope you are hearing me Diaste. If the judgment that occurs at the GWTJ is "deeds based" as you say, it's deeds based to convict, not deeds based to justify, for in the sight of God, shall no man be justified---except through faith in what God did for us through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. So, while those who stand before God at the GWTJ will be judged by their works, it will not be possible for them to be saved by their works. As Paul said, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). My position is that the "dead" being spoken of at the time of the GWTJ are those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins. Those being spoken of in connection with the GWTJ do not even sound like children of God. At the time of the GWTJ, the children of God will have already been joined to their resurrection bodies, or transformed (I Cor. 15:52-53) and made a "part" of the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5). These will be those who have that page in their biography, if you will, recording the day they got saved and had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Taking into account everything that is spoken of in the Bible relating to the first resurrection and the last one, the first resurrection will be of "the just" while the last resurrection will be of "the unjust" (Acts 24:15). The first resurrection will be unto "life" and the last resurrection will be unto "damnation" (Jn. 5:29). Based upon the fullness of what is revealed to us in Scripture, there will not be one unjust person resurrected at the time of the resurrection of the just. Conversely, there will not be one just person resurrected at the time of the resurrection of the unjust. These are two completely different resurrections. Scripture makes a distinction between these two---like categories---and everyone who has ever lived will go into one category or the other---depending on whether he or she has been saved or not. Consider the positive connotations of the resurrection spoken of in the following verses, which indicate that the resurrection of "the just" and unto "life" will be of the saved alone: From Luke 14... 12 Then said He also to him that bade Him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. And from Luke 20... 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. And from Acts 23... 6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. And from I Corinthians 15... 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And from I Corinthians 15... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. And from Philippians 3... 10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. And from I Thessalonians 4... 16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. It is elementary to see that what is being spoken of in these scriptures pertains to the resurrection that is the blessed hope of all believers. We know by other scriptures that there is also a resurrection that is not a blessed hope at all, but will seal the eternal doom of all unbelievers. There is a differentiation to be made between these differing resurrections, and when everything else is considered that has been revealed to us in Scripture, this differentiation becomes easy to see in Revelation 20. The resurrection category to which there are only positive connotations is the "first resurrection" (vss. 5-6). Of it, this is said... 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. There is only one other category of resurrection, one to which there are only negative connotations. It will be the last resurrection. It will be the resurrection of "the unjust" (Acts 24:15) and "unto damnation" (Jn. 5:29). It will be the resurrection of the unsaved unto the Last Judgment, or Great White Throne Judgment, spoken of in verses 11-15. At the conclusion of this judgment, "death and hell" will be "cast into the lake of fire" and "whosoever" is "not found written in the book of life" will be "cast into the lake of fire." (vs. 15). This ends the account of this resurrection and judgment. If there is to be something more, or some hope connected with it, we can gather by Revelation 22:18 that it would be so written. More to come... (page 141, post 7)

Hello Diaste, Continuing from my previous posts (page 122, post 8), (page 124, post 3), and (page 128, post 2), the following is a copy & paste of part of the opening post of my thread on The Three Parables of Matthew 25 (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/277622-the-three-parables-of-matthew-25/). Because it speaks to questions and comments you have expressed many times in the course of your thread, I'm using it to save me some time. After this, I have also added several other related thoughts that I hope will be helpful in some way. ==================== THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS In this parable (Matt. 25:31-46), Jesus speaks about the fact and the time of His return to set up His Millennial Kingdom and of a judgment that will take place at that time. At this judgment, all the "nations" of people (or Gentiles) will be gathered before Him, and He will "separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" (vs. 32). When all the sheep are to His right hand and all the goats are to His left, He will begin His decree. In real time, those to His right He blesses and grants the privilege of being a part of His Millennial Kingdom and tells them that this is because of the various ways they had cared for Him. They ask when it was that they had cared for Him so, and He explains that when they had cared for His brethren (the Jews and possibly any Daniel's 70th Week overcomers), they had cared for Him. Then He turns to those to His left and banishes them to everlasting fire, explaining that this is because of the various ways they had not cared for Him. When these ask when it was that they had not so cared for Him, He explains that when they had not cared for His brethren, they had not cared for Him. It is understandable how that some might believe that this parable conveys that one's judgment is based upon works or how one treats others. But, genuine good will towards others springs from something deeper than such works and is merely reflective of what is within one's heart. And, no one can judge a heart like Jesus Christ. Also, it needs to be remembered that the first and great commandment does not concern how we love others---it concerns our love for God. But, as someone has rightly said, "When we love God the most, we can love others more." This is because God is love (I Jn. 4:16). I would like to make it clear that I do not believe the judgment of this parable to be the Last Judgment spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15. Rather, this judgment will occur soon after Christ's Second Advent, at the time of the beginning of His thousand year reign (vss. 31-32). This means that this judgment will occur just after the end of Daniel's 70th Week. We know that those during that time who by faith choose to die rather than take the mark of the beast will be saved as a result of being overcomers (compare Rev. 12:11, 15:2-4, and 20:4 with I Jn. 5:4-5). Who then are those who are alluded to as the sheep and goats? In my concept of the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week, I can see there being some who will be able to flee and survive for a time, or some in remote areas who will be able to evade being found. No doubt, there will be those who will be able to help others who are fleeing and those who will help the Jews when they flee (e.g., Matt. 24:15-20ff; Lk. 21:20-24; and Rev. 12:14-17). Those who by faith help and minister to others who are fleeing (and especially the Jews) are the sheep of the parable. Those who care for none but themselves are the goats of the parable. These would not have even cared for Christ (Matt. 25:44-45). They, as the "wicked and slothful servant" in the previous parable, will likewise be separated to Hell (Hades) immediately, to be ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna), as revealed in Revelation 20:11-15 (esp. vss. 13-14). ==================== Beyond what I speak to in the above, my mind goes to the much discussed question of who God's children will reign over during Christ's Millennial Reign and where "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" (Rev. 20:8) spring from, who will join Satan in his final uprising after Christ's reign. I can see many possibilities, beginning with the offspring of those who are counted "sheep" in the above parable. Those counted "sheep" are certainly saved, but this does not mean that they will be given their glorified bodies at this time. Personally, I can see reasons why that Christ would desire them to remain in their mortal bodies during His reign---for at least some amount of time. There will be many lessons for them to learn in their mortal bodies, as there is for us now. Of course, conditions will be far better then than now, but as Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). Who knows, perhaps the Lord will grant to these "sheep" that they may have their glorified bodies 50 or 60 years into His reign, kinda corresponding to how it was for us who will be reigning. I would not argue about it, as Paul instructed us against such (II Tim. 2:23). I can just see it, and it is a logical possibility. Of course, children born to them while still in their mortal bodies would be like children born to us now. And there are other possibilities. Those who are younger and survive Daniel's 70th Week without having reached the age of accountability would be able to continue their life into the time of Christ's reign, it would certainly seem. It is also interesting to think of the possibilities for those of this present time who die a tragic death as a little one, or those who are miscarried or aborted. It has always rejoiced my heart when I think of this from Isaiah 11... 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a LITTLE CHILD shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the SUCKING CHILD shall play on the hole of the asp, and the WEANED CHILD shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. I've often wondered if these little children will be those who didn't get to live their life in this world as we presently know it. Maybe those of us who are ruling and reigning will somehow become their adoptive parents in that day! In any case, over the years the population will certainly grow, to the point that a "number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8) will show themselves for what they truly are. How is it that after a 1000 years of paradise conditions upon the earth that Satan could be successful in "deceiving the nations" to revolt against God and His saints? It bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity. More to come... (page 139, post 9)

Continuing from my previous two posts (page 122, post 8) and (page 124, post 3), I haven't yet shown references from the Old Testament, but there are prophetic puzzle pieces there also, which fit with the area of the last days' picture that we have been looking at. I especially like some things we find written in Psalms 37, as I regarded verses 3-5 as my life Scripture when I first began to give God the same chance that I had given the world 40 years ago. These verses read... 3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. 4 Delight thyself also in the LORD: and He shall give thee the desires of thine heart. 5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in Him; and He shall bring it to pass. Now Diaste, I understand that what I have in bold can be seen as being a little ambiguous, but this is just a start. And, I can't help it that where I'm starting just so happens to hold such a special place in my heart! One of the desires of my heart 40 years ago was for God to bring me together with the one He made for me (my Eve), and after He did, I began to embrace Proverbs 3:5-6 as my life Scripture (and have ever since). I would recommend Psalms 37:3-5 or Proverbs 3:5-6 to anyone seeking some life direction from Scripture---at least until they feel led by Christ's Spirit to another verse or passage. Hey, it's Sunday! Maybe someone reading my post can use an uplifting devotional thought. Annnyway, consider this, also from Psalms 37... 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. I can dig that! Or this... 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. Or this... 22 For such as be blessed of Him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of Him shall be cut off. Or this... 34 Wait on the LORD, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. These are precious promises revealed by God to believers a thousand years before Christ came. And, when Christ came, He reinforced what was written of old. Consider from Matthew 5: 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. This is from His Sermon on the Mount, where He also taught us to pray thus, from Matthew 6... 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. 10 Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Back to the Old Testament, I'm reminded of this from Daniel's prophecies, in chapter 7... 18 But the saints of the Most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. And this... 27 And the Kingdom and Dominion, and the greatness of the Kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him. And this prophetic puzzle piece from Isaiah 24 also fits right in there... 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, AND BEFORE HIS ANCIENTS GLORIOUSLY. Again, the opening part of Revelation 20:4 reads, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND..." Those being spoken of here are not the same ones being spoken of after the colon and the "AND" that I have emphasized. There is a precious promise for those spoken of before my emphasized "AND" and there is a precious promise for those spoken of after my emphasized "AND". And, OF ALL OF THOSE spoken of in this verse, John writes this: "and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." All very much in tune with everything that I have shown so far. I have a feeling that if Paul was able to reply on this thread, he might say something like this that he wrote in I Corinthians 6... 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? More to come... (page 131, post 7)

Continuing from my previous post (page 122, post 8), the following is a copy & paste of part of my statement of faith from My Testimony and More (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/). As you will see Diaste, it relates to questions and comments you have expressed in the course of your thread and hopefully it will make for a good lead in to some other things I would like to point out... ==================== "I BELIEVE that when Christ comes again, He will rule and reign upon this earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords---for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6). During this time, God will fulfill His covenant promises to the Israelite nation, and Christians will experience the rewards of their faithfulness to Christ. Realize, the estate of God's children in Heaven is a gift of God, and will be equal for all, for all of eternity, as reflected in Revelation chapters 21-22. But, the estate of God's children during Christ's Millennial Reign will vary greatly, for it is a reward, based upon what we have done for God's Kingdom purposes in this life, as reflected in Jesus' parables of the talents (Matt. 25:14-23ff), and the pounds (Lk. 19:11-19ff), and Paul's words concerning rewards (I Cor. 3:12-15). In my concept of what Scripture teaches, all of God's children during Christ's Reign will have it far better than anyone in this present experience of life---but there is a concern. Consider: We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls. And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies. This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly. But, we will still have our memories. We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5). This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the unsaved at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20). So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient. This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about." ==================== In light of what I shared in my previous post and things related to the above, I cannot see support that only those who are saved as a result of rejecting the beast's rule will join Christ in His Millennial Reign. The tenor of Jesus' parables of the talents and the pounds mentioned above bespeaks that His words held as much meaning for His listeners then as for us now. Not mentioned above, but just as pertinent is what Jesus told His disciples in response to a question asked of Him by Peter. Consider from Matthew 19... 27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. (like the icing on the cake! ) 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. Remaining mindful of what I pointed out in my preceding post, consider afresh John's words to those that were a part of the seven churches in Asia. From Revelation 1... 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 And hath made US kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Continuing, in Revelation 4-5 John tells of the invite he received to the place of God's throne in Heaven where he took part in the ceremony that was for the purpose of conferring to the Lamb the charge of the Seven Sealed Book. At the climax of the ceremony, all the saved that were in Heaven at that time---which would have included all from Adam until the time of John's invite---praised the Lamb thus, as recorded in chapter five... 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. What I am pointing out connects with part of what will happen during the period heralded by the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, as shown in the overview of this period. The part I am speaking of concerns the "reward" of having part in Christ's Millennial Reign. Consider afresh from Revelation 11... 18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Making the tie in with what I have already shown, it is during the 7th Trumpet period that the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place, of which John wrote these words from chapter 17 (which I previously pointed out)... 14 These (speaking of the beast and those in league with him) shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful. All of this interlocks with and enhances the prophetic picture of which John writes in Revelation 20:4-6. I don't find anything revealed in Scripture that suggests otherwise. As you assemble the prophetic puzzle pieces, the portion of the picture that we are looking at becomes clearer and clearer. Unless, of course, you have the grouping before you upside down or side ways. I've seen this happen many times when working on common puzzles. Sometimes the addition of just one or two more pieces helps us to see that we have been looking at a portion that we need to turn right side up. Then, a lot of things start coming together much better. More to come... (page 128, post 2)

Hello Diaste, Starting out, I had tried to keep up with your thread, and did fairly well for about the first 40 or 50 pages, but somewhere back there I ended up losing touch with it. It seems that I am always spread thin, and this became especially so over the past month, in large part because my son was hospitalized for three days in January at a local hospital and this last week for another three days at a major out of state hospital. This past week, much of the free time I had while in the room with him I spent looking at this thread on my cell phone. I did not look at another thread, not even one of my own. Of course, with the nurses and doctors coming in, messaging back and forth with concerned friends and family, and all that goes with a hospitalization, I was often interrupted. I ended up keeping a folded up sheet of paper close at hand where I could keep tabs on my progress through the pages. A portion of it looks kinda like this: 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 . Another portion looks kinda like this: 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 , which means I got caught up on your thread. This happened late the third day, not long before my son was released. We are all back home now, thankful and feeling optimistic about our son's condition and working towards getting back to something more normal. As far as the forum, it is on my heart to comment some on your thread topic before I get back to playing catch-up on my own threads. Believe it or not, in the time that transpired between getting a call from my son and getting him to the ER---from which he was later transported by ambulance to the out of state hospital---my mind went to the wait time that I would have and what I would do with it. Your thread ended up being where I spent my wait time. Whereas I found much of the thread to be painful (I'll let you figure what I mean by this) and my eyes often got terribly blurry, I believe I was able to accomplish what ended up weighing on my mind, and that was the thing of familiarizing myself with it to the point that I could make a helpful or "worthy" reply. My plan for now is to state my position(s) and share some of my thoughts in a few posts and then to be done, except for some possible replies to you. My desire is not to "win" but that what I put forth might be helpful in some way. If there are disagreements, I understand, and am reconciled to just give that to the Lord. Concerning the focus of your thread, the key passage of focus is the following from Revelation 20... 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Look at verse four again, and what I emphasize for now... 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Notice the first "they" and the second "them" in the opening words of this verse. Who are these? I submit that they are not those spoken of after the "and" that I have emphasized. Consider closely: There are two groups of saved being spoken of here. In order to find out who makes up the first group, we have to back up and look for the antecedent(s) to the "they" and "them" pronouns that I emphasized. When backing up, we don't find any possibility of a fit in the verses designated 20:3, 20:2, or 20:1. Backing up further, we also don't find any fit in verses 19:21 or 19:22. But, backing up one verse further, we find this (and note the bold)... 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. Is "His army" the antecedent of our search? It is certainly in the category of a possibility. Who makes up "His army"? Let's back up some further. To spare us a little redundancy, I believe we will all agree that when we back up five more verses, we find a relevant clue. Consider... 14 And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And, when we continue our backward search, we find more clues still... 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. More could be emphasized, but hopefully what I show will suffice. Does this mean that we have our answer? Maybe "Yes" for some, maybe "Perhaps" for others. Maybe even "No" for others. Yet, this immediate area of The Revelation is not the only place in Scripture where we find something revealed to us concerning our question. Let's back up further still, to this that we find in Revelation 17... 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Seems to be like a prophetic puzzle piece that fits with everything else we have been considering, does it not? And, backing up further, to the book in our Bible that precedes The Revelation, consider this from Jude... 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, So, we have some clues revealed to us through John and Jude. But, we also have some clues revealed to us through Paul, one of which is this one, from I Thessalonians 3... 13 To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. But, some will ask, "What about the angels that are said to return with Christ? Consider this that Paul also shows, from II Thessalonians 1... 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Based on how the prophetic puzzle pieces come together, both the angels and God's children will have part in Christ's Second Advent. It must be realized that just because the angels will be involved, this does not preclude God's children from also being involved, nor vice-versa. Whatever is being believed about such things, we must seek to come to an understanding that includes every prophetic puzzle piece. On my part, how I see the prophetic puzzle pieces come together spells awesome! To conclude this post, according to Scripture, God children---with none shown to be excepted---will return with Christ at His Second Advent. With other evidences besides, we can rightly conclude that the first "they" and second "them" of Revelation 20:4 points to all of God's children---even from Adam---having part in Christ's Millennial Kingdom. And, not only them, but these also (and notice my note): "...AND I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY (those before the "AND" and those after the "AND") lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20:4). When understood thus, what John beheld becomes a precious promise to all of God's children---again, with none shown to be excepted---even those who fail to get saved until the time of Daniel's 70th Week. More to come... ==================== LATER: Here's a list of all my subsequent posts: (page 124, post 3), (page 128, post 2), (page 131, post 7), (page 139, post 9), (page 141, post 7), (page 159, post 2), (page 170, post 7), (page 173, post 5), and (page 178, post 10). NOTE: Before submitting my final reply (page 178, post 10), I did some double checking on my post info and noticed that there had been a shift in the posts, making my info incorrect by two or three post numbers. I don't know how often this may happen. I can only guess that someone has deleted some of their posts. I endeavored to go back and correct my post info in all my replies, but was unable to on a couple of them (including my last one)---for whatever reason. In the future, these may end up only approximate. The reason I am giving this info is because of my systematic approach to answering the topic of this thread and thoughts I've had of giving links to these posts in the future, if this subject comes up in one of my own threads. Hopefully this post will serve as an accurate key, as I have been able to successfully continue to edit it.

You had written: "By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31. These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal " Where is Jesus on John's timeline, at verse 31? He is "after the tribulation of those days..." He is after the 7th bowl that ends the Week - so after chapter 16. Hello iamlamad, If I'm understanding you correctly, you have what Jesus says concerning "after the tribulation of those days..." (Matt. 24:29) as being equal to "after the 7th bowl," which would be after all the other vials of God's wrath as well. Is this your position? If so, there are suddenly many questions going off in my head concerning your position. For now, for here, I guess my first question has to do with what your position is concerning the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) that Jesus says will be sounded at this time. I would like to encourage you to consider the opening post of my thread titled, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/). We can discuss more about the above there if you would like. (NOTE: When I thought of my above thread, I went over there just to see if you had ever posted anything there. I'm glad I did, for I immediately noticed that the illustrations that I used there were not working right. So, I had to spend some time there getting all of that straightened out. I guess George has recently had some programing changes made, because this is something I have noticed of late. It looks like I'm going to have to spend some time going back through all my threads to make for sure of my illustrations.) Concerning your last question, I don't---in any kind of way whatsoever! If you consider the opening post of my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/), you will find that I---as you---also believe that The Revelation is in chronological order. The first 10 chapters are so chronological that it is not even in the realm of possibility for them to be more chronological. Then, chapters 11-20 continue chronologically, but with overlapping information, as I show in that thread and this thread as well. While here, I'm excited to make a comment that relates more specifically to what I wanted the focus of this thread to be. That second set of 10 chapters---every one of them---pertain to the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week (chps. 11-19) and what the ultimate purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy was in the first place (chp. 20). Kinda like the Touch of Divinity! I am so close to being in agreement with you here that I almost want to just say "I agree." I just want to make sure that with chapter seven, you see this as connecting hard with the 6th Seal and something that John sees before the 7th Seal is opened. It seems that I remember a take on this that you had that causes flags to come up in my mind, but I can't say for sure. Recall that I also see the 7th Seal being opened not long after the 6th Seal is opened, like, ON THE SAME DAY. Concerning your last sentence, I would just add "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) to the "seven long and very difficult years" to the time of "Jesus' descent to Armageddon." I would clarify that verses 27-28 are of Christ's Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon proper (cp. esp. vs. 28 & Rev. 19:17-21). Then, beginning with verse 29, Jesus turns His attention to the event of His "sign" appearance, which remains the focus of His attention thru verse 51. Of course, this "must take place before Armageddon"---like well before. Again, I hope you will look in on my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse. I WANT to say that. I have said it a few times. But I am troubled by it. Joel said the signs in the sun and moon must be seen "before" the Day can begin. The 6th seal events are: Earthquake Signs in the sun and moon Then the start of the Day. It would seem then that John wrote it exactly: the SIGN coming before the start. Where in this mix do you see the rapture? After the signs but before the Day? After the earthquake but before the Signs in the sun and moon? Or perhaps before the 6th seal is opened. That is where I place it. IF the rapture is just before the 6th seal, then their must be perhaps two weeks or more before the Start of the Day. Like I said before, I am puzzled. My position is that the gathering will happen just after the 6th Seal is opened. There is coming a day (a literal day like Monday) when the Lamb is going to open the 6th Seal. Based on all the evidences we find in Scripture, my position would be that the first order of business will be the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the resurrection and the rapture of the Church. Everything else that is spoken of will attend this event. According to my concept of what Scripture will support, whereas the "sign" appearance that Christ will make at this time will be on the order of a glimpse, everything else will be like lingering ripple effects of the event---what those who are left will see and experience after the event of the gathering. It is because Jesus will come as a "thief" and the DOTL will come as "a thief in the night" that I see Jesus making off with the valuables first. Perhaps some of the things Jesus mentioned first and John wrote of first will indeed be seen in a fraction of time before the actual appearance and gathering. Kinda like some thieves are actually seen before the valuables are taken---but everything happens so quickly. Like the door is busted open or the glass is heard to break and there is bewilderment about the strange noise before the thief is actually gone with the goods. I wouldn't want to get in a big argument about it. Bottom line---He is coming for the gathering both suddenly and unexpectedly! And, everything that Jesus spoke of and John wrote of will happen right there at about the same time. As I was typing---just kinda contemplating what the day will be like---my mind goes to what happened on 9/11/01. Relatively speaking, very few in America saw the first tower hit. But, almost everyone in America saw the second tower hit. What was the difference? Americans were tuned in when the second tower was hit. I submit that when Jesus comes for the gathering of the Church, it will catch the world completely off guard---like when the first tower was hit. By comparison, however, as Noah's worldwide flood was to a local downpour, so will the event of the opening of the 6th Seal be to 9/11/01. I am only going by john's descriptions. We both know what John wrote is a good description of total eclipes. In short, "it looks like a duck...." God USES the sun and moon for signs. Since John's description SOUNDS like total eclipses, why not just believe they ARE eclipses. Have you considered that at the time of an eclipse, only a small portion of the earth can view this as any given time. I submit that at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal, wherever the sun may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as black as sackcloth of hair" and wherever the moon may be seen by anyone at this time, it will appear "as blood" (Rev. 6:12).

Hello all, I just finished going through this thread in an effort to reset my illustrations that were no longer showing. I was most concerned about those in my opening post, as these illustrate the cleanness and simplicity of a basic position I have come to concerning the chronology of The Revelation. After many efforts, I was still unable to reset/edit my page 8, post 3 reply, but when I click on the area where my illustration is supposed to be, it will show.