TCC

But perhaps at the midpoint? Very interesting details you shared about Islam. I appreciate that. Is there some reference you could share on that because that is quite a unique find brother :) What do you think brings 144k to repentance and be sealed prior to Trumpets? The two witnesses in the second half? Bllessings.

So you would not see though a conflict with the two witnesses testifying of God during a time that God is sending a strong delusion? What would they be witnessing? That God in the background is good and holy WHILE He deludes most of the world with affirming them in their lack of repentance to see the AC as God? It just seems counterintuitive though to some degree, no perhaps?

Well thanks for sharing that. Its pretty cool to have that level of banter and be friends. I like that. Thanks for letting me know. As for the two witnesses...yes they could overlap but there are a few difficulties i would see with that perspective. 1. It appears to me that Rev 11 has the 2 witnesses tied to a season where the third temple is in play (even perhaps as it is being constructed. Stopping sacrifices in the middle of the week does not mean the sacrifices have to going on the whole time of the 1st half. But if the two witnesses are tied to a sense of the temple timing (even its beginning perhaps) it would infer likely sacrifices are going on during the entire or lion's share of the 1st half. So 1260 days from a beginning period of the tribulation places the 2 witnesses around midpoint when they die. 2. The 5th trumpet provides a supernatural power that kills the two witnesses. So the 5th trumpet would seem to occur near the killing of the witnesses if they start near a temple being on the scene with Israel. 3. The AC rules for 1260 days. The second half. So if the two witnesses are killed by supernatural power associated with trumpet 5, then it would seem they die around or just after the midpoint. 4. The AC rules for 42 months. How much genuine control can the AC have with 2 witnesses running around? If AC can kill the two witnesses with supernatural power...why would he wait? And how genuine of a rule can he have if the two witnesses are on the scene? To me it would make more sense for the two witnesses to be the supernatural power in the first half. And the AC to be the supernatural power in the second half. The two witnesses seem to be useful in bringing the 144k about. So there would need to be some kind of time with that. Because the 144k would be ready to be sealed by the first trumpet. It would seem the overlap with the two witnesses would be the time of the trumpets. Where the two witnesses are the superpower. And while Israel awaits her ministry for the bowls (which I would view slated for the entire second half. Because at the inauguration--Rev 15), the AC's mark had already been enforced. Which likely comes on the wings of the 5th trumpet. Perhaps administrated during the 6th trumpet. But it would seem likely the AC would need to get rid of the two witnesses prior to the mark. Because it would not make sense if the two witnesses were doing supernatural acts while the mark is biding released. I suppose it could happen. But 2 Thes 2 implies God's strong delusion as part of the mark period. And the two witnesses would not have need to do their thing while God is employing a strong delusion. It would be kind of counter productive for them to be here at that point. If that makes sense? Blessings.

Hi Joe. I just noticed this in checking in our forum today. The irony here though is that what you share at the end about the following: You must always be willing to truly consider evidence that contradicts your beliefs, and admit the possibility that you may be wrong. Intelligence isn't knowing everything, it's the ability to challenge everything you know. So yeah, i believe in that totally and often say it myself. Maybe different words. But what i have noticed about these days i have titled the age of Laodicea. And for me its a label i use to describe our age because of what i have noticed over the past 25 years and even more so in the past 7. Doubling down on our convictions is the zeitgeist of our day. It would seem the 2 Tim 3:24 refers to the church too. And that look on her is kina Laodicean-ish to me. So although i see loving churches or members today...in general...beyond the evangelical circus of the Joel Osteens and Kenneth Copelands, the church in biblical orthodoxy does not escape this much either. So yeah, i'd say we are in the Laodicean era for sure for sure...just in what we have romping around as normal in the church today (i'm in America). I don't see the same as RevMan, but i am interested to try and understand where he is coming from so as to get a better perspective in how he sees things. My views, you would likely have 10 times more concern with...lol. So there will be differences. As for me as a pretribber, i am open to other views. If pretrib is wrong, the first thing i will think is: "Wow so glad that whole concern of missing it was ridiculous on my part...now we can get to better business" Because i believe there is a chance pretrib might be missing something. So I am open. As a pretribber i went to KJVO church for 2 years that held to 6th seal rapture. Interested, but never really seeing it as valid. What i have done though is spend 15 to 20 hours on the hardest hitting high end debates against my pretrib view so i could be honest with myself. What i found is of course along the way we do find pretribbers can use verses that don't belong like that. One of those for me in concern is how the 24 elders have to be resurrected saints. I don't believe they are. But also consider i could be wrong on that. But i don't need them to be to see what the bible teaches about pretrib if that is an accurate takeaway. But i poured my heart into honestly being open to have my views "taken down" by the most aggressive debates i could find. And honestly, after hearing how other views used scripture...i know the pretrib camp does too...but pound for pound (outside of the misuse of scripture on all sides) i would see pretrib as having the most salient biblically accurate stance regardless. I believe for example the church is here during the first seal. But i realize too that there are some indicators in how i look at things that a 6th seal view of rapture is not out of the question. Particularly in light of the 144k getting sealed only at the trumpet point. What mitigates away from that for me is I subscribe to the 2 witnesses coming on the scene during the first half of the tribulation. This would likely be a difference in how RevMan is looking at things. But i'm trying to discern the differences with him and consider also where i may be not considering something. i think there can be honest saints on both pretrib and later or post trib rapture views that will have folks that see it the way they do and are yet open to consider too where they may be wrong. Each of us will have different kinds of constitutions. But because one is sold on their view, to me, does not discredit the view they hold. It does present other potential difficulties to weather some nuances. But i am glad that there are those open to the view of the other on all sides of the aisle. So in that sense i might be a more suitable conversant where we have differences in rapture timing. At least in the sense of removing a bias against bias as a roadblock to more profitable discussion...if that seems to be a sticking point for you as it relates to where the word might be more or less accuratetly considered. Blessings.

Thanks brother. I think I'm getting it. It looks like you see the tribulation lasting for 3.5 years I believe?

Thanks. It is interesting what you do with the numbers. As much of it as I can grasp I kind of understand. But to be honest, for some reason I am not exactly tracking...lol. I understand why you use the numbers to line things up with. But in like an old school day I might consider the 45 last days to be like dividing the sheep's and goats or something. In that sense to me it would mean that blessed are those who make it to day 1335 because those are the ones going into the kingdom. And the 1290 because we add an extra month after the reign of AC for the supper of God and the reapers angels to gather people. I don't share this to aggravate where you are coming from. Honestly. But based on what I just laid out, why is it necessarily helpful to see the two witnesses coming 75 days prior to AC? And why do 1260, 1290, and 1335 best line up in how you are seeing it? This may sound really dense. And if so I apologize. I just have like a block for some reason in seeing its bottom line to have need to see it the way you. Because 1260 for 2 Witnesses at the begining and 1260 for second half AC rule. And 1 month of final judgment. And 45 days of sheep/goat event seem to line up for me well though. Again, not trying to be difficult. Its just not clicking for me. What am I missing? I'm sure you have shared it. its just with the different ways we might think and process things, some aspects and features may be more difficult for some than others. So yeah just trying to understand how knowing those time measurements as you do affirms they tell us more or are arranged in a way that brings out more dynamic than perhaps the way someone like might self might be looking at. If you kindly could help me get to that place to get like the raw central import of why you go with how you understand (which of course might have great merit...I just don't have a clear enough vision of it to know how or why exactly) these timings are better proportioned in the ways you see it. Thanks brother.

Ok so then the 5th trumpet which empowers AC to kill the two witnesses does not come about until about half way through the second half in your view? I know that Rev 13 tells us that AC will get its supernatural power from the dragon. But I have always thought that the point at which AC gets supernatural power would be from the trumpet 5 moment. But you would see AC having supernatural power prior to the 5th trumpet. And having supernatural power around the start of the trumpts? Are the two witnesses in your view killed at the 5th trumpet timing? And with that the bowls you would see occur over a very small remaining window of time? Sorry If you have explained this prior. Its just not exactly how I have been understanding sequence. And just trying to see where my hang ups might be. Thanks brother.

And what does it mean that 5 million Jews are sealed during the trumpets?

Thanks. Yeah i remember reading that. Its not so much the number but the concept that is not so clear. If the Jews are sealed and protected during the trumpets, and the two witnesses come in the second half to call Israel to repentance, would the bulk of them not already be sealed upon the two witnesses arrival? Or in what sense of affect do the two witnesses have on a sealed large community of Jews during the trumpets though? Thanks brother. Blessings.

Thanks. I am going to process that. What do you do with the 144k being protected during the trumpets though? Blessings.

So Revelation Man you would see the Two Witnesses for the second half of the tribulation?

Thanks for your posting brother. I always enjoy your interaction. If am off, amen. I realize no pretribber (of which i am) has us here possibly for seal what except for me lol. But it makes sense we are because of the character of God both to the church and to Israel. It would just seem in character of God to grant Israel an opt out of their 70th week. Not that they will But that God might provide so not every single one of them might have to. Well yeah like in that way the Bride i believe might partake greatly in the peace building of Israel seemingly just around the corner. And if true, only God knows, the church would be able to offer Israel the biggest moving living Christian tract The first seal. Conquer for them (in part). This probably sounds martian lol. But if its that way or something like that, we probably will nor or can easily rule that out within a year likely. Yes i realized there are different trumps. Amen. I used to hold to the Feast of Trumpets as rapture timing. And in some way it could well serve in the way secondarily. But i believe just as the Spring Feast were all fulfilled in a short span of time...so will the Fall feasts. I agree with you brother about pentacost. And partly the Feast of Atonement. I would see that as the reapers in Rev 14 and the Supper of God. Feast of Trumps is 10 days before that. And the custom for that was 10 days of considering one's walk before the Day of Atonement came. And in the tribulation that would mostly resemble the sign of the Son of Man. Because Christ is seen and people morn over their sin in seeing Him. 10 days later, the reapers pick off those who remained unrepentant is how i would look upon that currently though. Blessings.

Well brother though mystery in the sense that you could not start a new congregation outside of Israel and just start ministering the word as having that mantle. Can you think of any? What comes to mind for me is certain people who came to see Israel's call and were blessed. Like Naaman. Like the Queen of Shiba. Yes they believed. And God healed 1 gentile leaper while ignoring the Jewish leapers because of self-righteousness. In Nineveh a whole community repented as a loud reveal of what was to come when Jesus rose from the dead. We are not shown though how the township of Nineveh gathered years after that event that i know of. Maybe you do. But i don't believe it was like little churches breaking out throughout the land. Perhaps it could have been though...for this was a great miracle work of God toward the enemies of Israel. But it was a mystery in that God called it one in the New Testament Eph 5. Or Christ as seen in prophesy and shadow for thousands of years arriving in Colossians. In the Old Testament some guy name Peter or any name could not go and kill and eat whatever he wanted to. He was bound by cultural laws because God was demonstrating setting a side a people group. For that time to minister to the rest of the world. So i guess my point is that Israel was to reach all the gentiles. Yes. But it was through Israel by design. Brother i agree with how you are seeing it in that yes by extension Israel would bring gentiles into the covenant. As well there are plenty of prophesies of Jesus being richly here for the gentiles too. I see this because of 1) Prophesy and God knows the future. And 2) He wanted everyone in the world to believe in Him in any case. Where we differ is that God's ministry to and through the nation of Israel is over. On that i don't think we will see eye to eye. One thing i could share in with pause (because I am a cessationist and don't believe there is a gift of prophesy today so that is not what i portend to do) is this: From my vantage point we are on an excellent timeline to see some things. God can do whatever He wants. So i realize what i am saying here could be completely wrong. But for 8 years this seems to well have been and increasingly is becoming the trajectory. That Trump wins, America becomes very powerful conservatively. The Abraham Accords are strengthened. And Saudi Arabia normalizes with Israel bringing more and more peace and safety to Israel. See if this is not the direction we head. Like i said i could be mistaken amen. But the reason i share this is not so much for eschatology's sake. But because it seems well fitting the power dynamic on earth gives Israel peace and safety as prepping that nation for Ez 38. And if that is not God dealing with Israel as a nation, we would have different take aways there for sure. Blessings.

I don't see Jesus as divided. He is the One who laid out the old testament and hid the church in mystery in those books. How we as human and mankind think about that does not alter the reality that He is the One who hid the church in the Old Testament. Because we see that does not necessarily mean we get to be His orators as to exactly how that happens in our end times. I suppose that goes for both of us. But i don't see Christ as divided when He showed us His heart in Romans 9-11. Even though the church is on the scene, He tells us not to take over His ideas for Him because in those chapters it tells us that they (the OTHER PEOPLE) could be grafted back in. And from what it looks like in Revelation, they will. And if that is the true word of God, we can choose to see that as a divided Christ from our temporal less than 100 years of life views. Or we can trust that maybe He knows better? Just saying. In any event you are not alone. I am not saying you are reformed. I have no idea nor does it matter. But I was reformed for 25 years. My church did see a distinction with Israel and the church. Which is extremely rare in Calvinism. But the replacement theology perspective is bigger than the way i am sharing. So you are in good company. The bigger part of the church at large agrees with you brother. Blessings. PS -- I reckon my point is the book of ACTS. We see Jesus as a baby in the gospels. We see him grow up in the gospels. We see him ordained by God the Father. We see Him heal. We see him crucified. We see Him rise from the dead. We see Him linger on earth for 40 days before ascending. We see Him standing at the right hand of God. Although Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, He is not an infant forever. He is not a 12 year old teaching scribes in the temple forever. He is not dying on the cross forever. He is not ascending forever. There are different stages to how everything comes together. I believe we are in the scene of that movie where Christ is calling His church home soon, and bringing the Jews as a nation to return to witness for Him in the tribulation. Matthew 23:39 KJ21 For I say unto you, ye shall not see Me henceforth till ye shall say, ‘Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!’” During the tribulation i believe they will. And we will all be His people.

We are at times we are shown in scripture that God being all knowing can interact with any moment with the sincerity the moment without infinite knowledge might call for. God knows the future of every birth. But will genuinely grant opportunity for salvation to those He knows their end won't be with Him. God knew Israel would be hardened and betray Him. His sovereign desire to grant the Jews a kingdom He promised them would not confuse His sincere intent in doing so. When dealing with God we are dealing with a sphere in operation we have no reference for. You don't believe in a 1,000 year reign but i do. If there is one, both resurrected saints and mortals will live in that kingdom. I don't see it as an either/or situation. Christ was crucified for the sins of the world. That had to happen. Had Israel accepted Him as their messiah, the Jews would have reigned, I believe. "Of" this world. A world where Christ is ruling on the throne of David, is His repurposed world. Jesus is flesh and spirit. The gnostics were in error to say Christ only came in the spirit. Because the gnostics believe all flesh and the physical world is evil. Yet when Christ rose he ate a fish. We likely will see this differently. Yes we are a new creation in spirit. But at the resurrection we will become both flesh and newly created spirit. In Hebrews it claims He is our high priest. I believe the throne of David is a different rule. Blessings.

Thanks for your detailed and caring reply. Ok. So there was a time for several years where I walked away from the church for 4 years. I have been in the faith now for over 20. But there was a time I questioned everything. To me, it does not matter when the rapture is. I believe that is pretty much God's sovereign peragative. Although I have been brought up as a pretribbers, I also belonged to a church for 2 years that was 6th seal rapture types. I never really believed that though but did have an open mind. I share this because in all this I spent 20 hours of in-depth time with the best video debates about rapture. Not to prove pretrib but to see if there are other arguments that are better and scripture shows otherwise, I want to know that. In that time of discover over the course of a few years I also was confronted with a 7th trumpet rapture position which seemed very different than the other views I knew but also very plausible for a number of reasons. I allowed myself to genuinely consider this view. But over a few weeks it becomes clearer to me that this view had holes too. And what tends to happen is not so much that other views have holes, but that in reassessing pretrib rapture, there tends to be more depth in contrast. So I have entertained "clearly shown in scripture" with an open mind and heart. And although I do see pretribbers at times smuggle in verses they have no business using, it stands to be the most likely position in careful study over the years. The reason you have for concern I understand. Sometimes I don't like the way pretribbers can tend to (not all but some) make it a focus to get out of here. To me that never rubbed me the right way. Because the people here need Jesus. And we are out when we are out. We don't need to hyper focus on that. So sometimes that gets to me. But other than that, I don't buy on the same notion, the "they will take the mark" argument. The reason is...we will have 3.5 years. We will have seen a lot. The time to preach no pretrib rapture the most is during a time in the tribulation should we still be here. Then we should knock our socks off. But to presume a position before the Lord has confirmed it, although well meant and of good faith for sure, I would not see altogether wise. I don't think it would take all that much to help, in the spirit, believers who would have been misled by pretrib. It may take some time to accept. I do see some secs make pretrib rapture maybe even potentially a weapon. And I have seen actually abuse on all sides of the aisle. But I think that if pretrib is wrong, and those thinking it were really in Christ, His spirit would help them mature into bolder believers. Otherwise to me it just seems like a man made way to feel like we can provide some discernment Ministry rescue service trying to protect people from taking the mark when the tribulation has not even started yet...would be my take in general. The best scripture I have seen for pretrib is controversial. And you will likely not see it this way. Which is fine. But signs indicate something future. And John saw one in the celestial...indicating something further by its viewing. Not something prior to John. But something to occur even after if it is a sign we see...then yes...even after the sign we would see. Something way way future. In Rev 12 John sees a child go to heaven. Many see this as ascension. But I see it as the body of Christ. Christ already ascended. 60 years later John sees a child rising in a sign of the future. The sign is not the thing it signifies. So this is one of three celestial signs. Rev 15 has the sign for bowls. Backing up I would reckon the red dragon to be the sign nearing the time of trumpets (1/3 is its associated language). And backing up still is woman/child. This seems most likely the sign for seals likely poetically seen prior to the seals providing possibly a symbol of rapture leaving Israel the woman behind. Prior to the seals (in general). I see the church here for the 1st seal. But I guess we will see. Yes I believe Jesus came for all creation. But the way God arranged that was to have Israel form a temple and city and proclaim God through this race. It was Abraham chosen and Moses, and David...etc. This line the Messiah would come. The Messiah would not come through random families of the Gentiles. Though Ruth and Rehab be in this line. God sovereign lineage choice. Jesus was Jewish and even in the day He came there was a difinte difference between Judea and Samaria. It was through the line of Jesse the Messiah came. And He came to give Israel its promised kingdom is what I see occuring in scripture. And just like in the 1,000 year reign where Israel will be the center of the world, Jesus will reign from the Jewish throne of David. And so was it then. And through this lineage, Israel would witness and convert gentiles just like in the old testament. As was it then. But the Jews rejected their messiah. And that seat of priviledge fell to the gentiles after the resurrection and Sandhedren murder of Stephen. Books like Ephesians demonstrate deep clear teaching that it was no small hurdle for Jews and gentiles to see each other as one body. It took a vision for them both to come to this understanding of what God was fulfilling and how. So yes it was always on the heart of God to include all in His family. Through scripture (all the writers of old and new testament are Jewish) He chose Israel to be the vehicle to call the world to Him. When the Jews forsook their messiah, the missionary work was given to the gentiles. Regardless of the wording, was this not the case though? Blessings.

Thanks for posting this. I'll check it out. Blessings.

I would consider this though an individual interpretation. I can see where we all try and study hard and comprehensively. But we are all going to be off somewhere. What you have stated here is a great sweeping statement. I have seen what I have understood to be exaggerations on all sides of the issue. So I'm gonna throw something out there that is meant to be ironic. Meant to use the obsurd to point out the absurd. In the United States Declaration the words: We hold these truths to be self evident. When looking at natural law we no doubt will run into those who are diests, atheists, and Christians as well. But the idea is that we get our humanity and the rights that go with simply being human from the organic/supernatural creation of mankind. Not from what we say about (laws and rights we make). In a similar way, I view the 70th week. By the very nature of this period of time, it is the end of the weeks of years train...for "my people." Contextually "my people" is Israel. We can expand that to mean the church...but the church was not included in that concept stated in the Old Testament. It was a mystery. Organically since Israel is back in their homeland, and Romans details a time the nation will become saved, I consider Romans a treaty of sorts detailing the handing the torch of witness for God to be the gentile world. No longer coming from the Jews. And 15 years later, Rome sacked Israel. And destroyed their temple. Demonstrating a natural law of Israel no longer being in the place as a witness for God. As Israel is here with us it would seem they will largely be used to indicate prophecy such as Ez 38 (is my perspective). Meanwhile I believe the church kind of making a similar mistakes 1st century Israel had. They took what was given them and made it something they were about more than what it was about. Thus they lost their temple. I believe the church is given many things in our age as children of Providence (those that received the blessings being a witness for God BECAUSE Israel rejected their messiah). But I believe if we see ourselves as a prophetic eye for God (aside from John 15:15--God allowing us to see things about Him as we act and demonstrate ourselves in love toward one another), we will likely find things might play out a little differently. Because no church person ever wrote a book of the bible. I believe Luke was Jewish. And although the church received the Spirit and sign gifts of the first century, I don't believe the church is slated as prophetic. That is just my view in general. I believe we can see certain prisms and aspects of the heart of God in prophecy. But I'm not really a fan of what seems to be a church tendency to see our prophetic blueprints as though in some ways they align terrificly with holy writ verbatim. I realize this would be controversial. But I have seen a lot of prophecy by the church. In some ways we seem to see certain things clearly. But I just don't see the church as having a prophetic office in general. I would see we have kind of higher calling in ways. To be the bride...the children of Providence. So in that sense, I believe what was prophesy for Israel (in how God interacted with them), providence is to the church (John 15:15). That as we honor Him and one another, we see more clearly likely how providence plays into prophecy. What I am not saying is that Providence replaces or reinterprets prophecy. What I am saying is that it would seem (and biblically as well too) that God would use Israel in their unbelief as an agency of His prophetic fulfilling perhaps more than the church in our sense of it. In this way I would see Ez 38 as the biggest portion of scripture on any one prophetic subject. And providentially making the most sense to give such deep detail to all on earth (if we might have interest) to have a sense of how tightly wound the end time clock is. For there are super huge details in the Ez 38.39 prophecy. And in this way, providence meets prophesy (led ironically more by Israel in God's hands than the church views and timings and such--although of course not without merit). . . . . . So when I see statement about wide sweeping notions that are personal interpretive convictions honestly held by a brother or sister, I understand it makes sense to them. But I don't think we get to omit our views as though they are not personal. To see our views align with the word is good. But are our ideas about alignment as sound, sober, mature, and perfect as His word? I don't think the answer is ever, yes. In golf a minor small fraction of an inch difference in how a ball tees off ends up many yards (maybe even hundreds) difference where it lands on the distant green. So I enjoy the different perspectives. But in general my paradigm is Isreal = prophecy, church = Providence. The 70th week belongs to Israel and stated in their prophecy to be theirs. The indemic profoundness of that might be easy to ignore. But its Jacobs trouble and 70th week of something for it to even be a week of years qualified. The very context of the week of years is God's business more than it is the churche's. Me thinks. . . . . . For example, I have a very different view of the 1st seal and use of the first 2 horsemen. No one else in the world will see what my view is. My view could be totally wrong because I am of the church children of Providence. The views I have on the first two seals is predicated on the understanding that the church is not prophetic but rather of Providence. So I kind of track providentially more than prophetically. Which might seem to be anathama to some. But I don't believe my views upon the 1st two seals is disclosed necessarily via the channels of prophecy. In fact, I kind of have to dumb myself way down to just look at what Providence might honestly look like to the commens. And how God in His majesty might condescend to the commens to help His creation kind of get it. So if anything, my "personal interpretations" cometh upon the wings of dumbed down street graffiti. But in respect to of course what time it is prophetically indicative by, once again, Israel from the late 1st century and her mirror presence with us now. Blessings. . . . . . PS -- Honestly from what I can tell about the strong delusion is it looks like the use of that concept in 2 Thessalonians pertains to all the lying wonders of satan active. Which would most likely be at the midpoint of the tribulation (not in how the tribulation starts). It would make sense too that the strong delusion God would provide or permit would be at that time of the midpoint because the reason there is an Antichairst is because Israel rejected the true Messiah. So at the point where the antichrist demands worship, this will be where all his wonders and signs and false miracles would be located at. And the deepest epicenter of deception. Not the whole of the tribulation from what I can tell. And certainly not the way the tribulation starts off. If that makes sense?

Thanks for sharing that. There is a reason they are separated as horses with men and the other judgements are not horses with men. It seems they are catagorized for reason. You would see that as a somewhat emblamtic themes of eras. Interesting. I found this tidbit about Napolean's white horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marengo_(horse) Thanks and blessings. :)

I understand the book of Revelation is tricky in its poetic style. As you have noted above though, you have the 3rd woe as the 4th trumpet and the second woe as the 6th trumpet? Blessings.

Interesting perspective brother. But you would see the 70th week as 3.5 days? Does this forum permit you to post your substack link for consideration? Thanks. Blessings.

My view of seals is obviously very different that I have seen. My main hermenuetic is the charactor of God revealed in such passages as Ez 11:33 and Hosea 11:9 with a dash of No. 20L12. Ez & Hosea for Providence sake of His concluding His age of grace contrary to escatological blue church the well meaning church might consider having a vantage point on of sorts. And No. 20:12 as displaying His charector in wrapping up His age of grace. Moses thought to teach rebellious Hebrews a lesson by striking the rock and calling them rebels. While all the while water coming out of a rock spoken to refreshes those unworthy as Christ's coming cross offer. Moses was crowding the simplicity of the gospel heart of God. Similarly our church views on esctagology might be overshadowing God's intent with apocolyptic revelation. For sure there will be horror unspeakable to come. But just like from what I have seen in general is there is a fascination with the powerful apocolyptic beyond the character of God toward His creation at that time. Again I am not saying fierce judgement won't come. Just saying it seems like a potential filter of His character plays more into how we understand God toward His creation in the closing years of the age of grace...and often run to the beast system or dark stuff. If that makes sense: Blessing.s

Ok so this is an interesting take. I find it fascinating in any event. I feel like with you what I normally feel like it must be for others when I share my seal views...lol. Are you saying that the seals themselves do not do anything as they are removed from the scroll? Like they are not famine on earth, nor war, nor pestilence etc? But are mere expressions of AC when he rules? If so, I consider that rather respectable for your enginuity and perspective. I've never heard this before. And is intriguing. You likely had posted something to this effect but as this idea is generally foreign, please forgive if it has, but...would you see the tribulation starting with the trumpets? Skipping past seals? So trumpets first half, bowls second half? You do see a 7 year tribulaiton or 3.5? Out of curiosity, how do you view Revelation 12? Thanks. Blessings.

Hi brother. Thanks and that is quite a bit to digest. Some highlights that stood out to me I like: the seals unveil the scroll. The symbolic number 144k. And your take on the silence in heaven. These are most profound in my estimation. There will no doubt be differing views among believers as to varying elements of Revelation. And I commend you for your detailed observations. One thing that is not so clear to me in how you laid it out is the 42 per each seal. Adding all those up would surpass a decade. But likely you have certain categories those years fit in? Like simultanously? It makes a lot of sense that the church be with God at the opening of the scroll. I admit that. It also does look like Rev 4 as a mirror of rapture. Plus I do realize my view on the first and second seal are in absolutely no theological circle. I'm pretty much alone in that view. Fortunately, I am a fairly easy out here though. Because if my take is off, it is ground level Easter Egg Hunt easy to disprove. In the short term even. So I am excited to see just what i've gotten all myself into...lol. If Trump gets elected, averts ww3, and Saudi Arabia normalizes with Israel, then i'd say the potential for my view would remain an open ticket item (providing of course the church has not already raptured by this time). But if within the next 12 months we don't see the above taking place and moving in that direction...I would see your observations as very worthy considerables brother. Thanks for the hearty, detailed, and filled with care welcome. Blessings.

I am always open to genuine levels of creativity when it comes to our sincere observations to understand our dear Lord and Savior. Amen. However, the sense I get is with the first last and last first have to do with righteousness in for people under the provisional umbrella of Christ. So it would seem the context would be related to people and a rightness of our standing before Christ. More than I would imagine it would relate to timing of things laid out in sequential order. I don't believe we have seen any of the seals yet. I know some see concur events with judgement cycles. But I would understand Revelation being pretty clear that the trumpets come out of the 7th and last seal, and the bowls come out of the 7th and last trumpet, thus establishing chronology. As for the woes, are they not Trumpets 5, 6, and 7 though brother? Blessings.