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What is stronger than your or my opinion is the revealing of scripture giving Israel her 70th week. That is between them and God. Its his 70th week, not yours to decide what its suppose to mean and how to look down on others. I get frustrated with all the Christians so fascinated with the NWO and the Wizard of Oz power given to Satan to be sovereign over the world as we fall into the tribulation. But that's a different story...lol. It boils down to what scripture means. Not competing our piety with climate change virtuosos. Would we say that Christ was wrong by the same measure in giving the same wage for a worker who worked all day and one who worked for one hour? I agree the USA has not had recent doses of healthy hard times to reflect and come down off the selfie bandwagon. But I don't automatically think that means I am more caring and thoughtful for not being pretrib. Especially if pretrib is His prophecy...and that's how it goes down. Would you want to meet Him with that chip on your shoulder? It sounds like a issue to take to prayer though friend. I understand underneath it all there is a heart expressed beyond Corrie or you in you with benevolent intention before God. But His prophecy has the last word, right?

Blessings.

Hi there. Thanks for your inquiry. Well if you and I got into a deep discussion on terms, concepts, and what I am looking at, you'd see full well how ultra consistent my cessasionist ways comport with a possible to probable near future outcome. We think is is wise to see our age as decadent. And it is. We think it wise to believe that the NWO is in power now and plunging us into hell in their little hand basket. And I actually partly agree. They are exerting much power. We think it wise to see Hegelian Dialectic and believe is perception is more from God than the New Age. And as far as tracking with political science, yeah....ok...i guess in ways...sure. But to not recognize the Hegelian Dialectic outside our comfort zones of understanding (like where the common or familiar application of such notions are applied), the greater outer spheres of Hegelian Dialectics, I do not see as wise. And practically, please forgive the way this sounds, but imparting sovereignty to Satan. Please allow me to explain. It is not his 70th week coming. It is not the NWO's 70th week coming. It is God's 70th week for Israel. The import there is because of and for their surrender as a nation to Him to accept Him as king of the kingdom He wishes to bring them into that they refused 2k years ago. That is God's focus. We are the one's fascinated with the dark shadows of our age and a vengeful spirit assigned often to God. That is not to say that vengeance does not belong to Him. For it surely does. But in our post modern minds we are tempting to sensationalize the devil. Even though his presence is broad, deep, and amazing as far as our finite minds consider. But the way I see it, honestly...we are too focused on our versions of how the tribulation has to belong to this NWO and we sort of feel entitled to believe that...or so I feel. Well this is my general response in context. I would say though however one thing in relation to the Trump brigade. I would ask you to please consider that the options on belief ranges are not limited to what CNN thinks or Fox News or even those super followers of Trump whose champion is the 17th letter. There are ways to see God's story with heavy focus on the millennial age more than the tribulation that do pass beyond your suspect of being fleshly perhaps. Well...just ask you to consider is all. And by that, I do believe their is a tribulation coming exactly as laid out in Revelation. A 70th of testing for the world like NEVER before. I don't think the dreams others have had or the aspiration others intent toward one like Trump are consideration worthy. The New Apostolic Reformation is a cult. BUT please be aware that Paul had a woman follow him around praising who he was until Paul casted the spirit out of her and her merchandisers lost money. Was she correct? Was Paul a servant of the most high? How about Caiaphas prophecy in John 18? Or in the OT, Balaam. He prophesied for God, as a part time job, right? Just saying, I think God might permit a bunch of conjecture all over the place to help a world about to go to hell in a hand basket a bit of head's up. Sure it may entrap them. I just hope the church is aware of what it all means and does not become like the Puritans during the witch trails. This may sound way off base. And if so, please forgive me. I will answer any measure of clarity you would like on that matter. But clarity for now, I am still a cessationist. Blessings.

I think there are reasonable arguments for the restraining as the church. I think there are reasonable arguments for Michael the angel as the restrainer. A much lesser rather fascinating take is Elijah. This view can be found but is very rare. Personally, I believe that the timing of events helps provide some possible answers for us. If we look at timing, and if timing be a chief principle in interpretation, then perhaps looking beyond timing as a starting point is a potential mistake. When viewing timing, what do we see? When looking at timing do we mean when AC appears as the man of lawlessness or the AC demanding worship? I believe the sense in Thessalonians is the latter (although reasonable arguments can be made for the former). In Revelation chapter 11 we see this is where the two witnesses complete their ministry just prior to the 7th trumpet. This would imply their ministry takes place during the first half of the tribulation. The AC is not able to do anything harmful toward them during their ministry until the end. When the angel comes up out of the abyss, this is when the AC has power to kill the two witnesses (not before), Rev 17:8. Since both the two witnesses and the AC are on earth at the same time, and since the AC cannot do anything to the two witnesses during their ministry, it could indicate that that the two witnesses presence physically on earth does restrain the AC until their ministry is complete. There are studies regarding the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord. We can see them even back in Zach 4:11. I believe, as far as timing goes, that the two witnesses are the restrainers...because we see a time and place where they do actually physically carry out a tangible ministry of this nature of sorts on earth before the whole world (and certainly before the angels of God...as audience). Regardless, it would appear to be true that of course any power given to whomever restrains, would be authority given and backed by God and His spirit. Amen. Blessings.

Hi, great topic. My take is that I believe Biden is a globalist and has an interest to find ways to erode American sovereignty. I do not think Biden is a legitimately elected official. I would be surprised if anything good (not bad) came out of his administration. Although Biden looks to be a steering into a globalist and fascist America, I think he is just trying to make up the difference 4 years of Trump stole from globalist momentum of America. And now, in double time, it is a lot easer to notice how globalist politics obviously are not what's best for a nation...but for a world...order...if that makes sense. Blessings.

I am a cessationist and don't believe that believers have extra-biblical dreams or prophesy, or that the sign gifts of the first century are for today. However, I do believe that as we approach the tribulation age, God may provide awareness of this time frame to His saints...and also the world. I am a cessationist, but I also believe that God can do whatever He wants. And much of it I don't really understand. Perhaps as we get closer to the tribulation age, the ways in which God works in his saints may be unique. Although I don't believe God gives extra-biblical dreams today...I would say that God certainly could communicate to us however intimately He may want to. But for us to be mindful that the enemy also wants to deceive us in our understanding of what God "might" be showing us. Having said all of that, it might seem odd that I would also say that I think it is a huge likelihood that Trump is the 1st seal of Revelation 6:2. Most people seem to tie that to the antichrist. And perhaps it is. But for most of the church age Rev 6:2 has been seen as good not evil. And if true, I believe that Trump may well be the fulfillment of that. I can explain in much greater detail if you would like, but one comparative is Isaiah chapter "45" deals with Cyrus (which Israel ironically compared Trump to). Let me know brother. Blessings.

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Hi Omegaman 3.0, R. Hartono & Dennis1209. Interesting conversation. The best I have heard on 23:31 is that it is not the rapture but the gathering of Israel from all over the world after scattering away from the antichrist. If we look at the usage generally in the bible of 4 winds we come to notice that it is referencing an earthy use of language, not a rapture: 10 Bible verses about Four Winds (knowing-jesus.com). In addition, if we look at the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30), we see that the tares are picked up first. I believe the tares reflects what occurs in Rev 14. There are two instances of reaping but they both look like tares. One might be for those who took the mark of the beast, and the other those evil but did not take the mark of the beast perhaps. But in order for the wheat and tares parable to be accurate, the wheat is gathered last. In Rev 14:14-20 the last reaping is the worst. Some think the first reaping is the good or rapture. But chapter 14 seems to be dealing likely with a time in which the earth experiences the sign of the Son of Man. Therefore, the first reaping would seem to be (as chapter 14 is a later chapter in the book--likely indicating a later period in time of the tribulation) something other than a rapture at that late timeframe. The wheat and tares parable would seem to govern Rev 14 not be talking about the rapture...but that the rapture was likely an event much earlier not involving the "nation of Israel" as the wheat and tares parable would...since it was told to Israel under that covenant with the Jews and to them as a parable (about them, not necessarily the church age). So in the way I see it, Matt 24:31 is when the wheat (the nation of Israel) is gathered by angels from around the world and brought into the 1,000 year reign. Not in their resurrection bodies, but making it through the tribulation to this new period in time with extend their life significantly (as people live much longer under the reign of Christ period), if that makes sense? I hope this is to some degree helpful Blessings.

On the video below at the 38:13 mark, Andy gives a chart comparison between the Olivet and UpperRoom Discourse. It is a pretty good video on the topic. Edit by Omegaman 3.0 Our policy here is that videos may only be posted in the Video Section of our forum TCC, so I had to delete it from this thread. I will watch in though, and see what I think. For those interested, the video could be found on youtube by searching for: The Rapture Sermon Series 21. Matthew 24-25 Explained - Part 1 In addition, here is a more specific article on Matthew as it pertains to the rapture: IS THE RAPTURE IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE? Pt. 2 – Grace Gospel Press

The way I understand it is that the Kings appoint themselves. We are not told the regions. But there are 10 toes on Daniels foot of statue. In some parts strong and in some parts weak. But it seems likely it is global because of Rev 13:7-9. HERE IS MY BREAKDOWN OF REVELATION It is highly likely that the 10 kings belong to the second half of the tribulation and not the first (thus they are mentioned toward the end of Revelation in chapter 17). Revelation chapter 13 looks to be the midpoint where AC demands worship. Some believe Rev 13 is the beginning of the triublation, but 13 is after 11. And chapter 11 has us up to the “end” of the trumpets. Chapter 14, 15, and 16 are regarding the second half bowl judgement period. Chapter 12 looks to be an overview from beginning to just past the midpoint. In any case chapters 17 & 18 focus on Mystery Babylon. And Mystery Babylon is destroyed by the very last bowl judgement 7. So there are three indicators that the 10 kings belong in the second half of the tribulation: Rev 13 appears after 11 (which 6-9, and 11 seem to have a linear forward motion–with some flash forwards included). Chapter 10 is highly likely the 144k inauguration for the second half. Please note that chapter 10 comes after chapters 6-9 which go in chronological order of the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets (leaving off at trumpet 6). Chapter 11 picks up trumpet 7. And chapter 15 picks up the bowl judgement that come out of the 7th trumpet. This leaves chapters 10, and 14, as “intermediary” chapters. For example, chapter 10 focuses on the little book and new witnessing. Chapter 14 is a table of contents to the second half. Chapter 15 is the heavenly scene (where as chapter 14 shows the earthly flip side echo of that chapter 15 heavenly scene…like inaugural form heaven and earth). PLEASE NOTICE HOW THE FLOW OF REVELATION LOOKS FROM A WIDE OVERVIEW A. Chapter 1 – John gets vision B. Chapter 2-3 Letters to the churches C. Chapters 4-5 Scene in heaven as John enters via vision D. Chapters 6-9 = seals & trumpets E. Chapter 10 = the little book (likely an inaugural celebration of Israel 144k to now witness) F. Chapter 11 = 2 Witnesses from beginning to mid point of trib G. Chapter 12 = From beginning to just past midpoint of trib. H. Chapter 13 = From midpoint to just past midpoint with AC focus I. Chapter 14 = Table of contents to the bowl judgements (the 3.5 year second half of tribulation) J. Chapter 15 = The opening ceremony of the final judgement cycle (bowls) K. Chapter 16 = The bowl judgements roll out L. Chapter 17 & 18 = Babylon the Great M. Chapter 19 = Armageddon Please notice how Babylon the great is mentioned in between chapters 16 and 19. Chapter 16 is the bowl judgements (including the total destruction of Babylon the Great). Yet we see Babylon the great in the following two chapters. And then, finally the last scene of the tribulation. So it looks like Babylon the Great is positioned and grouped as a second half phenomenon. And if so, likely too the 10 kings (who are just for the last hour primarily–or into the destruction of Mystery Babylon or Babylon the Great). If we look at Daniel chapter 7 all the 10 horns are on “the final” ruling kingdom head. This implies it to be the 7th head of the dragon in Rev 13. And the 7th/8th head in Rev 17. These seem to all be the same implicated head. Which lean toward the “final head.” Or the last of the last. In Rev 13, AC is only given 3.5 years to rule (not seven). These would be the last 3.5 not the first. Many people blend Revelation 13 as the beginning of the tribulation. But the book of Revelation is not layered out like that. Unless we perceive that all judgement sequences go off simultanously or like seal one, trumpet one, then bowl one…THEN seal two, trumpet two, and then bowl 2. but there are many problems with this view. for example Rev 13 says that the AC supernaturally comes back from the dead & demands worship then his image comes alive, talks, and demands the mark of the beast. That would mean all of that would have to happen under the first set. Because the first bowl is the blisters to the mark of the beast. That would likely all occur within the first 2 years while the two witnesses are running around. AC is given 42 months not twice that. It would make more sense that the supernatural 2 witnesses would not be competition with a supernatural AC. It would make sense that once the 2 witnesses ministry is over, the AC will kill them because in trumpet 5, that beast comes out of the abyss and empowers the AC supernaturally to do so. So AC does not have this supernatural power prior to trumpet 5. Hope that helps somewhat of where I am coming from. Blessings.

Yes I understand how you are breaking down commercial Babylon. I agree the 10 kings will be governance over regions. From what I understand, they will emerge toward the middle of the tribulation. So, as a pretribber, I don't believe we will get to see that. But it would appear from bowl 7 that it is a location. So just saying it seems like it would be a powerful nation. And right now (at least for now...lol) that would be America (if we are very close to a tribulation timeframe now).

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. But I have a bit of a different take on some things. What is really nice about the age we live in is the capacity we have to connect with one another. For the most part, global social media access is one of those pretty cool things about our late age. It is really wonderful that so many people can communicate with one another and share from various locations throughout the US and abroad. And for that, I am grateful for your input and the abilities we have to interact with one another. I would say that you may well be correct. We live at a time where there is every indication that the world that then was is quickly becoming a world that now is…and they are marked by stark differences. If anything, it surely can be said that we are in some mode of a transitional age. And transformation is happening rapidly before all of our eyes. Amen. I see from your first post with JDF that you have noticed end time preaching for decades. As for me, I was with the reformed church and they typically have no concept of a coming tribulation. Most of the movement believes the next thing to come is the millennial kingdom. And that things get better and better as the church takes the world by storm and brings in the reign of Christ. Although that is the typical backdrop beliefs of the reformed church, I was fortunate to be in one that believed there would be a coming 7 year tribulation, and I believe that is the accurate stance. Yet still, for most of life there was never any consideration of it being in my lifetime. The reformed church’s focus is much more on our own personal walk with Christ and service in the body. So literally, the thought of end times escaped me for decades. I believe what woke me up the most was a forming UN coalition of what appears to be the Ezekiel 38 leadership lineup: Russia, Turkey, and Iran allied in November of 2017. I know that most churches and the world is asleep. The good news about that is it is kind of impossible even still to go through a time like this and not notice things are not as they have always been. I know still many will not go beyond a glance on that. But at least it can help inform some whom might not have noticed otherwise. As for America, I hear what you are saying. Although I believe how you are seeing may indeed be accurate, my views on such matters are rather very different than what is customarily held to in this forum. I believe America could indeed lose sovereignty and take a back seat as a global national leader. I do consider that as a possibility. But for several other reasons I tend to lean much more in the other direction. And as far as views on this forum (or views in general about prophecy) the consensus is that America will lose sovereignty. I think that is a far greater likelihood during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. There we might agree more. But even there I do have my reservations. I am of the belief that as things stand now (as close as we appear to be to the tribulation age) America stands the greatest chance of being Babylon the Great. And if that is where she is going, then her sovereignty would likely remain intact…and increase rather than decrease likely. I would say the main theological difference in approach I would have with prophecy (differing from the norm in how we think upon prophecy unfolding) is that i believe God puts a much greater premium on the differentiating of the ages. In other words I lean more toward the school of thought that there are certain aspects of transitions that occur during the age of grace and certain aspects given to the age of tribulation. And although there will certainly be some connections and overlap, ultimately i perceive those two ages as very distinctly separate. I would see overlap in what we see with Pope Francis and a desired one world religion forming. I would see overlap in how the globalists want to change and transform the world with a great reset and rule in much more pronounced ways globally. I would see overlap with an increase in witchcraft and devil worship. And of course I would see overlap with how hollow in general the church at large is getting (as New Age philosophy seems to have a transformative effect upon Christianity these days, for sure). I believe there is a measured and contained sense of overlap in general. But things would only get so far up a hill climb onto the tribulation threshold or doorstep. Where my views tend to somewhat radically differ in taking the school of thought notion I go with is this: I believe how God handles His last period of the age of grace is an economy unto itself having its own unique exit strategy. This is something I don’t recall hearing from anyone. So to call it a school of thought might be a bit overly gratuitous. But i think in general some people also subscribe to the notion of severely marked differences between those two ages (albeit the minority). So I’m kind of in the minority of the minority. Which would make me the super minority, lol…i reckon. One major theological difference that would likely be a hurdle of differences between how I am looking at these days and how others are is the theory not to pull tribulation events into the age of grace too quickly. It would make sense that if one day it is the age of grace and the next day the tribulation age that there would be a ramp up and leaning into that period and age and that many things would be “just about” tribulation caliber and primed for that age when it finally does arrive. And although I do see “some” of that, my belief is that the age of grace has a far more distinct difference to it than it would be to pull events of the tribulation into the age of the grace. So that is likely where our fundamental orientations towards how end times unfolds would have stark differences. An example I often use to hopeful clarify this somewhat is “bitcoin.” Now we know there is a one world government that forms during the tribulation. And as we see epochs in time moving in that direction, our orientation is typically upon those things that more so ripely become tools the tribulation age capitalizes on demonically. But in so doing that we may have little to no notion as to bitcoins possible value in the age of grace as oppose to its more nefarious use during the tribulation potentially. When we think of bit coin we think of how money will work in the beast system. But what we might miss is how it might have its own autonomous value and import during the age of grace. For example, in the USA we have a central banking leader called the Federal Reserve. This central banking unit prints our money for us and loans us each dollar it prints with interest attached. So the foundation of the American dollar is “a debt note,” rather than real money and currency. It is a part of a central banking debt system. This monetary policy is not sound money. But coercive at its inception. Bit coin is not a part of that system. They try to find ways to regulate it…but it is difficult. So although eventually during the tribulation age bit coin (or something like it) would highly likely be a part of the beast system and the way the beast system works, during the age of grace (this side of the tribulation) its autonomous value has potential to mitigate against globalist infrastructure and given the right circumstances be an actual weaponized monetary system to challenge the global elites. In theory, something like bitcoin could very much function that way…especially as we begin to realize more and more inflation. So even though digital currency would seem to be a shoe-in for tribulation beast system currency, its potential import during the closing scenes of God’s age of grace, could be a buffer and ally to the commoner against totalitarian world elites. And i think it might actually have that potential. Only God knows if He so chooses the last days in His age of grace to go down like that. But the notion of God having very different plans for the peak season exiting of the age of grace as it transitions into the tribulation age is really not a viable concept on anyone’s mind. And would rather appear to be alien to all the ways in which we think upon prophecy fulfillment. I understand that. But it would also stand to reason, based upon the Character of God (as He does not desire the death of the wicked) that His plans for how He wants to rap up His own age of grace is in the mystery of His person to do so. And although I may not be accurate in thinking this way, I see every bit as much opportunity and path for this unfolding as we are accustomed to more commonly (what I refer to as) pulling the tribulation age into the age of grace. But only God knows. And in that sense I would say that based on the super charged irony we are all noticing, I would see that as louder than a conformity to a tribulation groove par excellence path forming. I would see what we see so loudly equal to a rubber band like pull back of a slingshot that when released would produce results far more akin and of the species of “final age of grace days” unique…more than a species of the tribulation to come. But of course, I could be incorrect. Just thought to share that at this point, as my views are somewhat well known on this forum but might be notions you had not come across previously. In any case, blessings. And if nothing else, see you up there :slight_smile:

What we find in His word is that the three leading nations in Ezekiel 38 (whom never aligned or partnered before in world history). Since 2017 they have been allied. Whatever that means it infers it is something potential in our life time.

Yes some view it as Armageddon. There are also views of it occurring before, at, or otherwise during the tribulation.

Since November 2017 Russia, Iran, and Turkey have made an alliance in the UN. These are the 3 leading nations in Ezekiel 38. This alliance never occurred before in history. The hard placement ID is Russia. Josephus in the 1st century thought Magog was the Scythian people mapped out in the region of Kazakhstan then. From 800 BC to 200 BC the Scythian race ruled various locations north of the Black Sea (throughout Russian regions). Russia has museum displays and online details claiming the Scythians as their ancestors. For the past 3 years Russia, Turkey, and Iran have jointly met in Kazakhstan regarding what to do with Syria. The idea that Gog and Magog occurs after the reign of Christ is due to reformation theology viewing Ezekiel 37 as ultimately having Israel supernaturally raised from the dead. In theory, the layout of chapter 37 looks to be evolutionary in nature. Like how things look "over time." It could be 1948 +. And the part where Israel is believing in Christ likely a reference to its peak during the tribulation of 144k. So it may be that Ezekiel 38 occurs in our lifetime prior to, at, or during the tribulation. There are people watching the lineup with all the nation states listed in Ezekiel 38. It has been forming in that exact direction for 3 years now. It looks possibly about 2 years off if it continues in that trajectory. Something to consider perhaps. Blessings.

No actually not at all. I am not calling you catholic or saying you are bringing dogma. What I am saying is that you are basing Darbyism as new in comparison to the dark ages. That is what i am saying...but you don't want to address that. You want to pretend as if you had already addressed it. Prior to the Alexandrian school of allegorizing that took hold of the bible and Christendom in the early centuries of the new millennia, the church fathers (past the 1st century--believed in Revelation futurism). Then the dark ages for 1,000 + years with inquisition and crusade and death threat to differ in theological was the rule of the day. To ignore that the dark ages threatened any other view with torture and death and pretend it was the way "the church believed and should have believed" historically, is to paint an inaccurate picture so as to provide you with an easy peazy argument that Darbyism was new. That was my point. I am address the point of your making Darbyism as new as sound historical understanding. You may mean well, but that argument is a pop culture argument is what i meant. Blessings.

Well they looked like they came out of a 2,000 year diaspora. And now are a world super power. To some effect it would appear (since no other nation on earth can claim this type of regathering after losing their nationality) that they have been gathered to some effect.

The simple dilemma is that amillennialism was held for over a thousand years in the dark ages under Catholicism. To qualify that (where you could lose your life if you theologically differed) as what the church should have been believing is not sound exegesis.

One way I think we might look upon the issue of where Israel is in the timeline of God's calendar = Ezekiel 38. Just in general, what it would seem to be true about Israel is that Ezekiel 36 and 37 describe an evolutionary development in the later days and would tend to blend two timeframes together for poetic cohesion of God's intent. When Old Testament saints viewed their Messiah coming they viewed Him as coming once and setting up the kingdom. They did not have the spiritual foresight to understand that there was a first and second coming. So applying that to how we are shown the Jewish nation in the last days we can see that they have been gathered, and had many struggles but also many successes. They also had been given recent favor of their own capital Jerusalem and Golan Heights. In addition they also claimed to be a "Religious Nation." Knesset makes it official: Israel is a Jewish state (jns.org) My point is that it would seem that Israel will come back to their land as in 1948 and slowly emerge into a world super power (which they are today), and have super strong defenses, and technology hotly sought after, and riches (like natural gas and oil recently discovered)...all as they get skin and meat on those dry bones. I believe we are seeing poetically Israel having come of age as a nation again, amen. But it would appear Ezekiel's use of prophecy implies difficult times coming for Israel (Ezekiel 38-39) and the millennial kingdom thereafter (Ezekiel 40-48). I believe what Ezekiel 38 demonstrated is an Israel during (or even approaching) the tribulation period (which during they will become a nation for God again via the 144k--during the tribulation winning souls for Christ). THE PROBLEM OF EZEKIEL 38 There has been a recent line up in 2017 of Russia, Iran, and Turkey. This has never been before in history. In November of 2017 theses nations formed a UN alliance. Turkey and Iran are obvious to get from the text. Russia is a bit harder. Josephus in the 1st century thought Magog was the Scythian people (who's region in those days be referred to as Kazakhstan). The Scythian people historically have been (from 800 to 200 BC) a people governing various regions in the upper Black Sea areas (known as Russia). Russia considers the Scythians their ancestors through their own museum displays and online searchable connections and affirmations. Ironically over the course of the past several years, Russia, Turkey, and Iran have been jointly meeting in Kazakhstan regarding Syria. It would appear that Ezekiel 38 is coming into form. Perhaps something to further research and pulse developments as more nations listed in Ezekiel 38 lean toward lining up with this prophecy. Blessings.

When I see this particular view I look for the counterbalance of sober thought that would be presumed to accompany it. When this view is shared and stressed how new some doctrines are and leave out what it is comparing "new" to, to me, it more than suggests it is not as sober minded as it thinks upon itself it is. For it appears to be lacking self awareness. For a good chunk of the church age (from like 400 AD to 1500 AD) the church was pretty much in the dark ages ruled by Catholics chaining bibles to the pulpit not wanting the common people to read the word for themselves. So if that is the foundation of what sound biblical positions are to you (those beliefs about the bible influenced by Alexandrian School producing massive allegorizing and partnered with keeping laity biblically illiterate on purpose for holy superior show) I would ask you to consider this logic. For if amillennialism is true it is true as enforced by the Catholic church. And we would be claiming that to move from that position is to move from holy Catholic churches protection of God's word (even though used to intimidate and gaslight laity). With those odds, I would say a few hundred years of thinking outside the box of inquisitional tortures, if you did not have the proper doctrine, might be the right amount of time for sober men to better understand what the word is saying WHEN its not under oppressive dogma. Blessings.

Understandable. But early church fathers did have some nuances of futurism. To think that is new, based on the Catholic church ruling the dark ages for over a century, to me, is suggesting that Rome had it right for over 1,000 years. You are saying Rome's theology of Amillennialism is not a doctrine of Rome? Unfortunately, that is where that sort of thinking lands you. Siding with Rome regardless. How would you explain Ezekiel 38 unfolding in the middle east?

It also aligns with their Catholic roots. The reformers brought with them the dark ages Catholic belief of amillennialism. But dispensationalism did come from the reformers. You might have asked how so. But even still, here is an interesting article that seems to be helpful in making some of those connections. Blessings. The Calvinistic Heritage of Dispensationalism (liberty.edu)

I agree with you that we should not be thinking the devil is in charge. I am a futurist, but are you aware that dispensationalism came out of Calvinism and the reformation? To see dispensationalism as some new recent theory that cannot be correct is to believe that the church under the Catholic Dark Ages (where we were not allowed to read the bible and the Alexandrian allegorizing of the bible) was the correct view for over 1,000 years? How could theology develop under totalitarians rule? Are we saying that since the crusades and inquisitions kept the body of Christ in order, we would consider any doctrine that a man or woman would have been killed or tortured for against the holy church of Rome would not be accurate doctrine because it went against papistry? Are you sure that God's word chained to a lectern so that common man could not read it was the spirits intent for the church for 1,ooo years?

It is very healthy to get to know where another person is coming from. I have seen a lot online where presumption are made. We will all do it. But being in a path where we learn from others about where they are coming from is the patience and character of love. Romans 15:2 2Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up. We can't really do that is we don't know them as well as we might.