Made In USA

thanks. Im glad to have some agreement here.

I didn't say you said otherwise. I said God directs secular men who fought a bloody war. So the glory belongs to Him. But fighting wars is not the business of the Church. That's where we disagree.

I gave God glory too, you just missed it somehow.

Maybe you don't see why but that deeply offends and hurts me. Thank you. When I'm weak I'm strong.

Im a Christian not a patriot. Sure i love America but not if it gets in the way of seeking the kingdom.

Somehow i don't agree that fighting a bloody civil war was the purpose of the Church. Sure I'm glad slavery was abolished but i didn't see the Apostles fighting a civil war to end slavery. Matter of fact they commanded slaves to obey their masters. I would rather give secular men credit for ending slavery because God himself directs them whether they like it or not.

We already have strife and division just talking about whether we should engage in politics. Look, if you want politics you can have it, im not trying to force anything on you. Im happy without it though. God rules and judges unbelievers, he doesnt need my help.

You are saying we need to engage in politics. That is about legislating. You also say its about light. So i must assume you want to legislate the gospel. Im done talking to you. I'll wait for others to respond.

I think God brought those things to pass using unbelievers. Many of our founding fathers were unbelievers. They may have had religion but not always Christian religion. Im not saying that peacefully protesting slavery was wrong. Im saying that joining a faction that causes us to be divided is darkness. Politicians make a game of dividing us, that's how they win power. Even MLK said neither the republicans or Democrats are Gods party.

You think the definition of light is to force others to obey God?

I dont need to prove that Christians are divided. They dont agree on political things and belong to different political factions. You call that having the same mind and judgment as Paul urges us to have? Your problem is you want to legislate the Gospel but you cant force others to follow the Gospel.

Who cares if homosexuals marry? God will judge them, all we can do is preach the truth but you cannot legislate the Gospel. You cant force it down people throats. As much as i hate abortion and will say its wrong, God is still in control so if he can tolerate it without stopping it who am i to stand in his place and do it myself?

Thanks for shortening your posts to a manageable size. Socialism may not be Gods way but its not our business what the world does, if they choose socialism that's not our responsibility to correct. We don't sin by paying taxes to a socialist government either. Give unto Caesar that which is his.

Actually politics lead to more darkness not light. It divides the body and causes contention, covetousness, discontentment and all manner of fleshy works. Its not our job to rule over unbelievers. You cant make others submit to Christ.

You should consider that Christians are divided over politics, and that's not Godly. If we stay out of politics God still rules over the unbelievers. That's his Job not ours.

Im not going to argue with you. You are not being honest about your own posts. Why not respond to my other posts as well? About those long posts of yours. Many words dont help this discussion, it just makes people want to avoid talking to you.

Thank you. I believe politicians just lead us astray from the path of the kingdom and bearing fruit.

Go and subdue the earth doesn't mean to subdue each other or unbelievers. Teaching the commands of Christ doesn't mean to turn it into the law of the land and force others to obey it. Jesus kingdom isnt of this world and so they don't fight, remember? Why didn't his apostles subdue the Romans? I think you are wrong about many things you have said. Notice i don't need long winded speeches to get my point across. Short and sweet is better. Please, for the sake of the thread don't post such long posts. Thank you.

If we cant force unbelievers to follow the gospel, how can we govern them? Should we imprison and fine them for not Obeying God?

It must be between believers seeing how Christians belong to two different political factions. Why do you feel the need to govern the world? Isnt that God's job? Cant we just concern ourselves with seeking the kingdom instead of governing a country? If we do that and pray for the world maybe that would be more effective. God wont hear our prayers if we do evil though. And the question is do politics lead to evil?

Give Caesar his government, we have the kingdom. Is the saying true?

So you would promote a system that causes division and strife between believers? How is that going to help us bear fruit of the Spirit? Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [h]belong to Christ Jesus crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Before you create a law you must judge whether something or someone is wrong, such as in murder for example. Governing does include judging. Not to mention we set up the SCOTUS and federal judges. Even the congress holds hearings. Which political party do you think helps us seek the Kingdom and why?

God will judge them. We don't need to govern them do we? Our goal is to promote the Gospel but we don't force it onto others do we? For what purpose would we need to govern unbelievers? What do you think of this scripture? 1 Corinthians 5:12 For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [l]judges. Remove the evil person from among yourselves.

Some people think socialism and or social programs are God's way. But i cant agree with that. Paul said let everyone give what's in their heart, not to give what the government demands. Could you imagine the Church forcing tithes from its members? Give unto God that which is His and to Caesar what belongs to him. When we serve political systems we are not giving to God what is his. Socialism also seems to lead to covetousness. People covet others wealth and teach people to do the same. Tax the rich they say. And last but not least we are not supposed to teach people to look toward the government for help like with social programs but we are supposed to teach people to seek the Kingdom and God will supply our needs. Socialism isnt Godly for these reasons, not to mention they lead to division and strife like all politics do. This doesn't mean I'm against social programs, just that I'm for the Kingdom. Give unto Caesar. I think we should let the world govern itself and let the Church govern itself with kingdom principles. Like Paul said "For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God [l]judges. Remove the evil person from among yourselves."