FreeGrace

1.The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say they received glorified bodies. 2. The Bible doesn't say they went to heaven. The case of Eutycus is that he was taken home. That is not heaven, no matter how pretty his wife was, if he was married. 3. Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:23 don't permit your view. Jesus was the FIRST to be resurrected, which has to mean receive a glorified body. Everyone before Him were only resuscitated, not glorified. If they were, the Bible would have said so. 4. 1 Cor 15:23 says specfically that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes". All references to the "coming" of Jesus refers to the Second Advent, because the OT prophesies of just two advents. So that's what is being referred to when we read "the Lords' coming", etc. You said: "But, hey brother, I can walk away from it. No need to answer. Be that as it may, I'm surprised that you could say that our Lord Jesus "was not part of the FIRST resurrection" Being part of the FIRST resurrection is the QUALIFICATION for reigning. How then does Christ reign! You see, the word "protos" can mean "first in time", which is what you stick to, denying the resurrection of all those who were raised before our Lord with an argument about their type of body. But "protos" also means "first in rank or importance"." I never avoid answering questions. And if I don't have an answer, I'll admit it. I thought I was clear on the phrase you take issue with. Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was first to be resurrected. We know there were several examples in the OT and Jesus Himself raised people from the dead, including Lazarus and a widow's son, plus more. But the Bible does NOT say any of them were glorified. They simply came back to life, in their physical and mortal body. The Jewish leaders were so jealous of Jesus, they planned to KILL Lazarus after his resurrection. That should be enough to show that he wasn't in an immortal body. You said, "If this is the meaning, then saying that Christ did not partake of it relegates Him to imposter-king. But I must say that with a small change, you and I are not far apart. Go well bro." Let me be clear(er). Jesus is the FIRST human being to be resurrected with a glorified body. Then, "when He comes", all saved people (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected with glorified bodies. It would be absurd to claim that Jesus was in the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of all believers. That wouldn't be possible. He HAD to be resurrected FIRST. That's all I meant.

The word "sign" in the NT means a miracle. As in "signs and wonders". Then you said: "To avoid having humans with darkened minds mangling the true meaning, God forbade "private interpretation" (2nd Pet.1:20). What then is left as a resource? Only the Bible itself. Let us take an example. God restores the earth from Chaos to a pristine paradise in 6 days. He sets the boundary of these 6 days with "the evening and the morning". But does not do this with the 7th day. Why? Because a Book of the Bible written 1,500 years later, Hebrews, is going to propose that man has failed to give God His Sabbath, but that God has set aside a Sabbath for Himself and His people and it is FUTURE to the Church age. How are we to know what He is talking about?" Yes, Genesis 1 is not original creation but rather, a restoration from chaos. Then you said: "And so to fathom the length of Adam's life we apply the "day" that fits - the last one - 1,000 years. If Adam died WITHIN the day he ate and he lived 930 years, that "day" was 1,000 years. And if the first Sabbath was 1,000 years, then the future Sabbath of Hebrews 3 and 4 must be 1,000 years. So then we have a means to discover when the future Sabbath Rest is. All we have to do is find a 1,000 year period when God has His Man in place. And we find such a "day" in Revelation 20!" I understand the Sabbath rest in Hebrews to be eternal reward. You said: "And so, that is how we need the Bible to interpret the Bible. If it is left to men to interpret they come up with the wrong answer. The theologians who did not use the Bible came up with the idea that Adam must have died "spiritually". This is wrong for two reasons: 1. A spirit cannot die. There is no record of it and Luke 20:35-36 says that angels, which are spirits, cannot die 2. Adam dying spiritually presupposes that he had spiritual life. But he did not ever eat of the Tree of Life. Man's private interpretation was wrong - but it is widely taught." I certainly agree that we need the Bible to interpret itself. However, regarding Adam, he certainly did die spiritually "on that day" that he ate the forbidden fruit. The literal Hebrew is: "on that day, dying, thou shalt die". Now, did Adam drop over "on that day"? No, he didn't. He continued living, even 930 years more. So, you have to ask the question, what, exactly did die "on that day" since the Bible says he died "on that day". The only obvious answer is his spirit. Back up to ch 1:26,27 where God said, "let US create man in OUR image". Not about physical characteristics since God is the Spirit and therefore doesn't have physical characteristics. It refers to God's Triune nature: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 3 parts. So God created man with 3 parts; body, soul, and spirit. 1 Thess 5:23 identifies these 3 parts. And Heb 4:12 shows that though related, soul and spirit can be differentiated. So, "on that day", Adam died spiritually, which means he was completely separated from God. He had no ability to fix his problem, and when the Lord visited in the cool of the evening, both Adam and the woman hid, demonstrating their spiritually dead condition. However, when the Lord spoke to Adam, he was able to respond. And he blamed the woman, who blamed, the serpent, etc, etc, etc. So the gospel promise is based on the fact that man is born spiritually dead and physically alive. That means man needs to be "born again", "RE-generated" or "made alive", all biblical terms. So when a person responds to the gospel promise, God RE-generates them, or gives them new birth. That refers to the albatros around their neck, or dead human spirit. It is made alive. From Paul's writings, we know that worship is from the human spirit, and Jesus told the Samaritan woman that one must "worship God in spirit and in truth" in Jn 4:24. iow, in order to worship God, the person must have a living human spirit and worship according to God's Word. Keep in mind that Adam's condition before his rebellion cannot be compared to anything today.

Except Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified resurrection body, per Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” This means that those referenced in #1 did NOT received glorified resurrected bodies. They just got back into their physical mortal bodies. Jesus is FIRST. Since ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23, that means #3 and 5 are not resurrected in the time frame that you are suggesting. #7 refers to the unsaved who will be resurrected back into their mortal bodies. Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15 all teach that there will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved. The unsaved will be resurrected to appear before the GWT judgment. When they are cast into the LOF, their mortal physical resurrected body will DIE AGAIN. That's why the LOF is called the "second death".

I'm not proposing anything. I have given clear Scripture on the subject. You say you are teachable. Since you are, then please show me my error from Scripture. As to the resurrection body, we don't have much detail, other than it will be just like the one Jesus has. You said: Please make me a case, with scripture for every step, - of the death of any and all of the cases of resurrection before Christ. If you can't, then I will accept documentation of ANY man's death who was formerly resurrected. What case do I need to make? Do ANY of the examples given indicate that the one raised from the dead received a glorified body? No. That IS the case. "- of the old body being discarded in favor of a new. That is, it is not correct to say that "IT" is planted to bring forth a result, and/or "IT" is changed." I never said the "old body was discarded", so there is NO CASE again to be made. The last sentence isn't clear at all. "- of how Revelation 20:4-6 can say that those martyrs could participate of the FIRST resurrection when Christ was FIRST some 2,000 years prior." 1 Cor 15:23 corrects your confusion. Jesus wasn't IN the "first resurrection", but rather, He was the FIRSTFRUITS, meaning He received His resurrection body before anyone else. This is proved by Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” I think it is hard to argue against this verse. This verse explains 1 Cor 15:23 completely about what "firstfruits" means. So, then after His resurrection with a glorified body, the resurrection of the SAVED will be ALL the saved, as "those who belong to Him" means. That is the FIRST resurrection. According to your calculations, Rev 20:5,6 would mean that Jesus gets His glorified body when He comes back at the Second Advent. That makes no sense. Jesus is the FIRST to receive a gl0rified resurrected body. About 2,000 years later, ALL the saved will receive a glorified resurrected body. About 1,000 years later, ALL the unsaved will receive a non-glorified mortal resurrected body.

Rev 20:5 is very clear about the time gap between the two resurrections: 1,000 years. The second resurrection, which is for the unsaved, will occur just before the GWT judgment. All believers will be judged at the Bema, which will occur at the Second Advent.

No, I don't. The Bible plainly says that there are two resurrections; one for the saved and one for the lost. Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:29 - and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. The blue words refer to the saved in each verse. The red words refer to the unsaved in each verse. It only takes one clear and plain verse to make a point. Here are 3. So I have added nothing to the text. Since the tribulation martyrs are obviously saved, and will reign with Christ, they are in what v.5 and 6 call "the FIRST resurrection". That would be the resurrection of the saved. Rev 20- 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. All believers are in the FIRST resurrection. All unbelievers are in the SECOND resurrection, which is 1,000 years AFTER the first one. See the parenthesis at the beginning of v.5.

Huh?

I disagree with the use of the word "harvest" for the resurrection. Just because Paul used the word "firstfruits" for the first resurrection, which was Jesus', and included a glorified body, there is no reason to jump to the conclusion that resurrection can be viewed as a harvest, as in the OT. As to Matt 27, how do you know "after" implies a period of time between them? And further, NONE of those were given glorified bodies. It seems there is confusion over the word 'resurrection'. Yes, it literally means "to stand up", which is what a dead body would do if life returned to it. However, when considering the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, all of them are given immortal glorified bodies, just like the body Jesus had in His resurrection. So, all the references from the OT and gospels of people coming back to life are NOT given immortal glorified bodies. All of them died again. In fact, because of 1 Cor 15:23, NONE of them from the OT or in the gospels could have received a glorified body because Jesus was the FIRST to have one. The "rest of the dead" are ONLY unbelievers. The Bible says there is one resurrection of the saved and one of the unsaved. So Rev 20:5 refers to the unbelievers. I find your comment about the boy who Elijah prayed for being given a glorified body before Jesus to be stunning. NO ONE got a glorified body before Jesus did. Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” So, how could the boy be resurrected before Jesus given this verse. I would say you are not discerning between simple life returning to a dead body vs a dead body being given immortality and glorification. That's the whole difference.

Rev 20 shows differently. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. v.4 introduces the martyrs from the Tribulation, and says they are resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. v.5 parenthesis is about all the unsaved, who will be resurrected at the end of the MK. Then John clarifies that the resurrection of the martyrs (along with all believers, per 1 Cor 15:23) is the FIRST resurrection. iow, the SECOND resurrection is that of the unsaved. v.6 repeats that the martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. And that they will reign with Christ during the MK.

The harvest in Matt 9:38 isn't about resurrection but evangelism. The harvest in Matt 13 is about angels gathering for the two resurrections, at different times, of course. The harvest of the earth in Rev 14 certainly isn't about resurrection, but rather, DEATH. A very bloody death at that. 14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. There is no way to equate this harvest with resurrection. It about God's wrath on the earth and blood at high as the horses' bridles for 180 miles. Then you said: "Isn't it interesting that Rev 14 starts with 144,000 first fruits and ends with a harvest?" No, I see no connection between the 144K and the "harvest" (bloody) of the earth. You said: "The two chapters referring to 144,000 are Rev 7 and 14. Chapter 7 is very clearly Jews. The firstfruits in Rev 14 are described quite differently." And?

Right. Jesus Christ wa the first human being to receive a glorified resurrected body. That's what Acts 26:23 says: that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” We know that there are many examples of people being "raised from the dead", both in the OT and NT, so this verse is specifically about receiving a glorified body. So 1 Cor 15:23 confirms that and also informs us of WHEN all believers will receive theirs, which is "when He comes", the Second Advent. Then you said: "Also, it's interesting that the phrasing of 1 Thes 4:17 says, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Why say "remain," if there was not an earlier (first fruit) rapture (at the throne)?" I don't know why the word "remain" or "left" has anything to do with a previous rapture. All Paul was saying was that the dead saints come with Jesus from heaven, and all the living believers that are STILL ON EARTH will be "caught up together with them (all the dead saints). Doesn't seem complicated at all.

Ch 14 can easily be a 'look ahead' chapter; of what's to come. Not every chapter in Revelation is sequential. This is one of them. You said: "Okay, I'm not sure why you don't want to look at the OT for the basis of the first fruits mentioned in Rev 14 . . . you just referenced Daniel! But there it is - 144,000 that are clearly not Christ Himself (they do have Christ in them), being present to God. This is just like all the first fruits in various OT places, where it is stated they be brought directly into the temple." I don't see any need. The sequence of end times is easily seen in the NT. Yes, I cited Dan 12:2 to prove that there are just 2 resurrections total; one for the saved and one for the lost. And there are 2 in the NT as well: John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. Yes, the OT does mention "firstfruits", all in reference to LITERAL harvests. But the Bible does NOT reference any resurrection as a harvest, so I don't see why "first fruit" in connection with the resurrection of the saved can be any other than the Lord Jesus Christ. "An if there are more first fruits than Christ Himself, by definition there must be others that ripen later." I think that is an assumption. In the context of resurrection, there is only 1 "firstfruit", which is Jesus Christ. As to the 144K, since they are Jews, they could be the "firstfruits" of evangelism during the tribulation. That would make sense. I don't see any connection with resurrection.

In typical pre-trib thinking, the "rapture" is the living believers caught up to the dead saints that accompanied Jesus to earth and then Jesus taking ALL of them back up to heaven. Yes, all living believers when Jesus returns will be "caught up together with THEM (all the dead saints who accompany Jesus) in the air/clouds. 1 Thess 4:17 You said: "The dead in Christ must be raised first. That is at the end of the MK. This is the time of the last day that Jesus spoke of." I have to disagree with you. The single resurrection of ALL believers occurs "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says plainly. "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." All references to the "coming of Jesus" in the NT are a reference to His Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about ONLY two advents. There are not more than 2. " This is John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The last day is the day after which there is no other day." Actually, there are a number of "last days". Could be the last day before the start of the tribulation, or the last day of the tribulation, or the last day of the MK. So context must determine which of these is meant. What is clear from Scripture is that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation to actually end it and set up His MK and reign for 1,000 years, with all the saved people who have glorified bodies. Who survives the tribulation? Since all living believers are glorified "when He comes", only mortal unbelievers are left to re-populate the earth. This explains WHY there will be such a worldwide rebellion at the end of the MK. And all the living unbelievers will be killed, since Heb 9:27 says that "it is appointed for man to die ONCE, and then the judgment." All believers will be judged at the Bema, which will be at the beginning of the MK. All unbelievers will be resurrected to appear before the GWT judgment, and then cast into the LOF.

Ch 14 cannot be linked to resurrection. There just isn't any words to make that connection. And being "offered as firstfruits" cannot refer to resurrection since Christ alone is the firstfruit of resurrection, meaning the FIRST to receive a resurrection (glorified) body. You said: "And if we interpret scripture with scripture, what is the picture in the Old Testament of first fruits? They ripened early and were brought into the house of God." Why do we need to go to the OT for details of the resurrection. Dan 12:2 clearly states that there will be a resurrection of the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved. Trying to include humans with the only actual firstfruit (Christ) doesn't work. "What happens often is we assign everything to Jesus and not so much to us. But Jesus came that we all might have life. He shares authority and glory with us. How? "Christ in you, the hope of glory." So He's (hopefully) growing in all His children, and some will ripen first, and some need the full summer heat." This has nothing to do with the resurrection of "those who belong to Him", from 1 Cor 15:23. Again, there is just ONE resurrection of the saved. And Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved will get theirs "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. With a verse as clear as this, there is no need to go to the OT for details on resurrection.

I don't see Jesus receiving His throne in Rev 4. That chapter is what John saw when he was taken to heaven initially. I believe Jesus has been on His throne in heaven since His ascension. He receives His earthly throne when He comes back at the Second Advent to reign in the MK. Then you said: "The difficulty is the rapture of the Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5. The scene is the same as Revelation Chapter 4. The 24 Elders and the 4 creatures are present as in Chapter 4. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 the Christians are judge before the "Bema" - a traveling throne. But in Revelation 14 they stand before the "Thronos" (Gk.). They have been "redeemed FROM the earth", so every indication is that they are in heaven." I don't see any "rapture" in ch 14. v.4 "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless." The Bible always refers to the resurrection of believers in the singular, as in 1. There is no mention of Jesus taking these 144K to heaven. Being "offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb" can mean a number of things. And when considering the resurrection, ONLY Jesus is "the firstfruits", followed by ALL believers (those who belong to Him) which will be "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent. "I have sought a scene to fit this for years and only come up with one possibility. That is, the Firsfruits have an early and separate Rapture for a short appearance before the throne in heaven. I support this with two bits of evidence; In Chapter 11 the Two Witnesses are Raptured to "heaven". And in Chapter 12 the Man-Child is raptured to the "Throne", not the "Bema". The difficulty with this lies in the fact that in 1st Thessalonians 4 they saints are raptured to the "air" and "clouds", but the Two Witnesses, who are raptured last, are caught away to heaven." I don't understand what "a short appearance before the throne" means. And the 2W are not "raptured", since they were taken to heaven way back in the OT already. And their bodies being "raised from the dead" isn't a glorification that will accompany the resurrection of all the dead saints. Bottom line from 1 Cor 15:23 is that all believers will be glorified at the same event, which is the Second Advent. "The solution for this difficulty is that Heaven is in the Troposphere (which would agree with Genesis 1). But I believe that nothing is by chance in the Bible. The Mind Who wrote that Book is a hundred trillion times superior to our puny intellect. He made no mistakes and he did not waste words. Everything is there by design. So why these different names? They're not there by accident." Scripture is clear; there is one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Paul is speaking in the singular, so I don't see how that singular resurrection can be split into multiple resurrections. Also, both Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 speak of a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection of the unsaved. So, for me, that singular resurrection of ALL believers will occur when He comes back to reign in the MK. Then, at the end of the MK, when all unbelievers will have been killed by this time, at the baattle of Gog and Magog, then God will raise from the dead all the unbelievers to appear at the GWT judgment and then cast into the LOF. Interestingly, the LOF is also called the "second death". Since people are born spiritually dead, they don't spiritually die a second time, which is what I used to think. But when I read that there will be a resurrection for unbelievers, it became clear to me that what WILL die a second time is their resurrected and mortal bodies. So when they are cast into the LOF, they will experience a second death and then their souls will spend eternity in torment.

By "rapture" do you mean Jesus taking the resurrected and "changed" believers to heaven? If so, remember that the Bible teaches just one resurrection of all believers, which will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, So there is no way Jesus takes believers to heaven. He returns to reign during the MK.

Thanks for the valuable info. btw, I see that you edited your post. I don't see any button for editing.

I'm going to "cut and paste" to respond, since I prefer addressing individual points rather than just at the end of long post. You said: "The word "firsfruits" means firstfruits. It has nothing to do with what type of body one has in resurrection. The Bible does not make a distinction between dead bodies coming to life and "resurrection". One is the other." That is an opinion. Since Acts 26:23 CLEARLY notes that Jesus "was the FIRST to rise from the dead", how can that be true since the Bible notes MANY who came back from the dead? And we know that at the Second Advent, when all believers will receive their resurrection bodies, it is simply impossible to assume that those mentioned in the OT or during Jesus' ministry that any of them received resurrection bodies. Then you said, "Acts 26:23 presents us both with a challenge. All three Old Testament cases of resurrection, and that of Lazarus clearly show the person to have been dead for some time. Their resurrections are so placed in history that it makes Acts 26:23 patently untrue IF you take the meaning of "protos" as "first in time". But all problems disappear if we use the meaning "first in rank or importance". This alludes to Christ's deity and to His preeminence. He was "slain from the foundation of the world" is correct because He was both Man and God. So also "before Abraham I am", and "He BECAME author of an eternal salvation" (Heb.5:9). This very difficult sentence is solved only by His eternal nature. And so Is Act 26:23." All you are doing is trying to explain away Acts 26:23 from the previous returns to life. What the Bible doesn't say is that any of those OT or NT return to life accounts included the glorified body. That is your problem. All of the accounts died again. btw, the Bible doesn't say that no one can die twice anyway. Then you said, "In the section 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 THREE resurrections are shown - not TWO as you maintain. There is Christ's, then, as we know, quite some time goes by until "those who are his" are resurrected. Then a time of His REIGNING and SUBDUING must go by but death is not yet subdued. Magog is an enemy and him and his hoards are killed - adding to the power and numbers of the dead. But then suddenly, amid all this death, death is destroyed. If one man was left dead, death could not be said to be destroyed. So the MUST have been a final resurrection after Magog. And truly, Revelation 20 reveals a grand resurrection 1,000 years AFTER "those who are his"." There are not 3 as you claim. v.23 is crystal clear. Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified body. And then, "when He comes" we read, "those who belong to Him". That is a reference to TWO resurrections involving glorified bodies. First is Jesus Himself, and second is "those who belong to Him". That means ALL believers, in spite of any naysayers. Your comment about the MK is irrelevant, since Rev 20 is very clear about the FIRST of two resurrections will occur at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns. The next resurrection is that of all unbelievers, and that one occurs at the end of the MK. Then you said: " This section informs the "sorrowing" Thessalonians of something. The cause of the sorrow is that they thought that by dying, the dead saints would NOT be in this company of triumphant saints. The early Christians did not suffer from the Roman Catholic myth that one goes to heaven at death. The sorrow was that Paul had taught what Jude reported Enoch as saying, that is, when Christ returned from the sky, He would have in His company angels and saints. The dead saints were in the grave bodily and their souls were in Sheol (or Hades), so the living Thessalonians thought that they would miss this triumphant arrival on earth from the sky." Your comment about the "sorrowing Thessalonians" misses Paul's point. They weren't concerned about the dead saints. They were concerned that THEY themselves had already missed the event. 2 Thess 2:1-3. Then you contradicted your commnt about the Thess church being concerned about the dead saints missing out by your last comment about they themselves missing out. Seems confused here. Then you said: "Paul's discourse in 1st Thessalonians 4 is not to teach the mechanism of rapture. It is to teach how dead men get to be with the Lord when He comes from the sky. If the dead were already in heaven, then where was the "ignorance", and why the "sorrow"? And what "comfort" was needed?" Since I disagree with your view about where the souls of dead saints are, there is nothing more t0 say. Paul was teaching what would happen when Jesus returns, with all the dead saints, who are already in heaven, as Rev 6 proves. They receive their glorified bodies before those who are alive and remain. Then you said: "Added to this, other recorded resurrections are the same." Not sure of the context of this comment, but what is clear is that NO ONE receives a glorified body until the Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation to reign in the MK. Then you said: "1. Christ says that he Gates of Hades will not prevail against building the Church. That is, it presents a problem 2.David's BODY is in a grave, but David's SOUL is still in Hades 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus, and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:29, 34) 3. The dead are naked (2nd Cor.5). How shall they appear in heaven? 4. The dead are unclean. How shall they appear before God? 5. The dead RISE 6. Jesus has preeminence in ALL things. If we do not follow what His experience was, we have preeminence 7. there is no scripture to maintain a mass exodus from Hades to heaven 8. In Ephesians 4 "Leading Captivity captive" means; (i) Captivity is still a captivity, (ii) this captivity has itself become a captive, and (iii) there is no record of movement of the original captivity" I've already addressed your error about where David's body is. 1. There is no problem, but I get it that you think so. 2. No. David's soul is in heaven, as Rev 6 proves clearly. 3. "dead naked" only refers to being without the "tent", which is the physical body. 4. Refers to a rotting corpse, not souls. 5. Their bodies rise. 1 Thess 4 clearly shows the dead believers coming with Christ at His return. 6. ? 7. yes, there is. Eph 4:7,8 is clear enough. You said: "I find no scripture that says dead men are in heaven in Revelation 6." 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. You can see what you want, but "souls under the altar" isn't about the earth. This is how John opened chapter 6 - I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” In the context from ch 4 to ch 6, John is in heaven. So he was seeing the souls of dead saints. "The Tabernacle that Moses made had TWO altars - one in the Outer Court for sacrificing and one in the Holy Place for incense. The altar of sacrifice in the Outer court was plated in brass, the altar of Incense was plated in gold. Heaven dos not need a Brazen altar because there is no redemption for heaven. The golden altar may not have blood on it after the dedication. The altar of sacrifice must be on the earth." I don't find any of this to be relevant about Moses' tabernacle. You'll have to explain yourself on that. You said: "I think that such a statement should have scripture attached, especially when John 5:39 says that the resurrection of the damned is a "resurrection"." Exactly! There are just 2 resurrections of humans. One is for the saved, which will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23, and the other is for the unsaved, which will be at the end of the MK when the living unbelievers from the MK will be fried. What occurs next is the GWT judgment, and all unbelievers will get their physical bodies back to attend that judgment. Then, Rev 20:15 tells us that they will be cast into the LOF. The LOF is also called the "second death". Should be obvious that the phrase refers to their physical bodies. They get to die physically twice when cast into the LOF. You said: "I think that we can agree that the doctrine of going to heaven when we die is very shaky." I couldn't disagree more. I've shown you the verses where souls are IN heaven and talking. "Many scriptures make much more sense when men are found in Hades after death." Yes, all unbelievers are STILL THERE, awaiting the GWT judgment. But Eph 4 is clear about Jesus leading a procession to heaven when He visited Hades. "And for so great a doctrine there should be a wealth of scripture. But there is not a single direct statement." I've shown you.

Not true. 1 Cor 15:23 specifically says that the resurrection of Jesus is FIRSTFRUITS. And there are only two categories of resurrection in that context; Jesus' and all believers. Second, Acts 26:23 specifically says that Jesus was the FIRST to "rise from the dead". We know there are examples of dead bodies coming back to life in the OT as well as the recordings of dead people during Jesus' ministry being brought back to life. It is obvious to me that 1 Cor 15;23 and Acts 26:23 clearly make the point that Jesus was FIRST to receive the resurrection body that is promised to all believers. This is an amazing statement, since I quoted many verses. Where do you think the dead believers are waiting now? The SDA believe in "soul sleep", but I reject that idea because the Bible uses "sleep" as a euphemism for physical death in many places. 1 Cor 11:30, John 13 and Lazarus, for example. Rev 6 speaks about "souls under the altar" and the context is IN heaven and they are talking. Was John making all that up? Jesus took ALL the dead saints that were in Paradise to heaven after His crucifixion. Eph 4. As to Acts 2, Peter was quoting David from the OT (v.25). As to your claim that David is still there, v.29 - “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day." doesn't say that David is still there, it says HIS TOMB is still there. I think you are assuming way too much. Real simple. 1 Thess 4:14 - For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. So clearly all dead believers are NOW with Jesus in heaven. And when He comes back, He will bring with Him all those dead believers, to receive their resurrection bodies. v.16 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. This is a reference to their physical bodies rising from graves. I believe that I just did. You are free to your own opinion. btw, this works both ways. What verses support your claims, that believers are still in Hades? This isn't the argument. Before Jesus' resurrection, the souls of ALL people went to Hades. The saved to Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved to "torments". But Jesus emptied Paradise and took them to heaven. Rev 6. We need to discern between simple resusitation of physical bodies, like that of Lazarus and the examples in the gospels, and receiving a glorified resurrection body when Jesus comes back. This chapter deals with everything related to the resurrection of all believers. That verse is bonded to 1 Cor 15:23. ;)

They are in heaven, awaiting their resurrection body, which will occur "when He comes" at the second advent. Per 1 Cor 15:23. All the dead saints are NOW in heaven. They will come back with Jesus at the second advent. Obviously. They don't die again. The Greek word translated "resurrection" is literally "to raise or stand up". Do you agree that Acts 26:23 says that Jesus is the FIRST to receive a resurrection body? Everyone has their own opinion on this, but I take the most obvious meaning, first in line. Jesus was the FIRST to be resurrected, even though we know that there were already a number of people who came out of their graves before Jesus was resurrected, which proves that the Bible doesn't count them as "resurrected" in the sense of receiving a resurrection body. There are only two resurrections; one for the saved and one for the lost, as I already pointed out, including color coding. Correct. The LAST resurrection is the SECOND resurrection, which is obvious from Rev 20:4-6. And this is the resurrection of all the unsaved, as I have already covered in detail with Scriptures. All believers will be resurrected "when He comes" at the second advent. All unbelievers will be resurrected to attend the GWT judgment after the MK and God ending the battle of Gog and Magog in Rev 20.

The Bible is clear about this discussion. First, there is just one resurrection of the saved. All of them will be resurrected/changed at the same time/event. There will also be just one resurrection of the unsaved, which also will be at the same time. Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5- 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Blue words refer to the saved and red words refer to the unsaved. One resurrection each. Since the Bible clearly teaches that there will be a resurrection at the Second Advent, we know that is when all believers will be resurrected/changed. 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Regarding the concept of "rapture", most think of it as when Jesus comes before the Tribulation and gathers up those "who are alive and remain" (1 Thess 4:17) and will be caught up to the air/clouds and be changed (1 Cor 15:512-53) and then taken to heaven. And that is the problem: there are no verses that plainly tell us that Jesus takes any resurrected/changed believer to heaven. And since the resurrection of the saved will be "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23), which is the second advent, there is no way there will be a trip to heaven after receiving a glorified body like Jesus'. Hope this helps.

There is no resurrection when the Two Witnesses are raised to life and ascend to heaven. Heb 9:27 says that everyone is appointed to die ONCE, and then the judgment. There are 2 OT prophets who NEVER died physically, Enoch and Elijah. They get that experience at the hands of Satan. They go bodily up to heaven. There is no mention of receiving a glorified body. Remember that there are several accounts in the OT of dead people coming back to life as well as numerous accounts in the gospels of Jesus raising dead people. Yet, Acts 26:23 tells us who received the FIRST glorified, resurrected body; Jesus Himself. Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” This is confirmed in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Notice also what else the verse tells us: "those who belong to Him" is a reference to EVERY believer from Adam forward. And the verse also tells us WHEN that single resurrection of ALL believers will occur: "when He comes". When the Bible speaks of the "coming of the Lord" it is referring to His Second Advent. The OT prophesies about just two advents. His first advent was as a baby to become the Suffering Servant. His second advent will be as the King of kings, and Lord of lords. So, the ascension of the Two Witnesses cannot be a resurrection where they receive glorified bodies. They will get theirs per 1 Thess 4:17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53. It will be "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

I don't know why it would. The melting of the elements will occur when God creates the "new heaven and new earth" per Rev 21.