FreeGrace

Of course I admit that. In fact, I have been pointing out consistently that EVERY saved person in history who has died is NOW in heaven. So what? Doesn't support your claim. Oh, good grief. When I say "dead saints" I'm not talking about their bodies, which are in the ground on earth. No soul ever dies. I strongly reject the doctrine of annihilationism. All souls will exist forever, the saved with God and all the unsaved in the LOF. The problem is that we simply can't fully understand all that Paul wrote, because the Bible doesn't address the status or condition of souls in heaven. They are without their physical body, but they are also described as talking and singing in heaven. So what do you do about that? And again, there is only 1 resurrection of bodies, given at the Second Advent. So we DON'T KNOW how souls in heaven appear. No they aren't. Why didn't Paul include the concept of "rapture" in 2 Cor 5:6,8? 6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. I'm going with what Jesus said about how Lazarus got to Paradise - carried by angels. Except you are forgetting one tiny thing. What about all the living saints on earth who will survive the trib? You're leaving them out of the Bema, and Paul said ALL OF US will attend the Bema. 2 Cor 5:10 Well, that ignores all the surviving believers on earth. That isn't any "reward" granted. That is how ALL saints get from heaven back to earth. Therefore, your conjecture isn't logical. There is no rewad attached to the return with Christ. And you still have the problem of what God does with the non-rewarded saints still in heaven. And there's nothing in the Bible that says that. Not seeing a point here. Please summarize and show the differences/similarities and include the point. Jesus brings every saint in heaven with Him because that is the ONLY WAY for every believer to receive their glorified immortal resurrection body. Seems you keep forgetting that. The word never occurs in the Bible, so what word/words in those verses leads you to think of "rapture"? What verse shows disciples asking Jesus about ANY "raptured ones"? Since the word doesn't occur in Scripture, it seems this is just more conjecture. This is a description of the Second Advent when all the living believers will be caught up to the sky and receive their changed (resurrection) bodies. 1 Thess 4:13-17 Conjecture. Every saved person in history will be at the Bema. It will occur AFTER all have received their resurrection bodies. Think about this bit of logic. Just like in the military, ribbons and awards are placed on the UNIFORM. Why would there be any difference at the Bema?

Not true. Our difference is that I don't use conjecture. You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement". That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally. Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection. There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it. I'm only pointing out how much you presume, etc. Actually, no, there's not such a thing. When we have straight forward verses on the resurrection that make clear there is only 1 resurrection which will be "when He comes" speculation, conjecture and inference all go out the window. I would need to see the context. I never said that was. But given all who are there, the scene is obviously in heaven. And since the Tribulation isn't over at that point, there has been no resurrection yet. So that shows that the 144K have died, most likely by martyrdom. ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW. And none of them have been resurrected yet. Because there are NO verses describing such an event. Every dead saint is in heaven. Why would anyone need to speculate as to how they got there. Jesus even told us how the poor man Lazarus went to Paradise; escorted by angels who carried him. That is not a rapture. OK, I need context for what you are referring to. Please show me where they were "taken". Lazarus was taken to paradise by angels. That was no rapture. Oh, it is very selective. When verses/passages are NOT clear, plain language, I'm very skeptical about what people say about them. You mean there's some kind of "equal value" beyond "the verses" to understand?? What verses haven't I seen yet? I've already asked for any verses that describe a trip to heaven in resurrection bodies. And I have acknowledged that the souls of ALL believers go to heaven at death, but the Bible does not call or describe that as a rapture.

Mistakes are different than sins. Eph 2:8 states the full truth, "we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH" (in the finished work of Jesus Christ). Is there a verse that says this? 1 John 1:9 tells believers that IF we confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us. To repent and "turn from it" falls under the category of human effort. Another word for it is lifestyle. Lifestyle won't save anyone. Is there a verse that says this? That would suggest that ultimately there are no more sins to turn from. Does the Bible teach sinless perfection? If so, what verse(s) says this? This indicates that one's lifestyle is the determining factor in going to heaven. Jesus said in plain words in John 5:24 that "whoever believes" (present tense) has (present tense) eternal life. Then, in John 10:28 He said, "I give them (believers) eternal life (when they believe, per Jn 5:24) and they shall never perish". It seems your claims are contrary to Jesus' own words. Jesus already told us the truth. As I've shown you from the Bible. If you think it is Jesus telling you what you have posted, you might really need to figure out just WHO it is that is telling you all these things. 1 John 5:19 - We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. Rev 12:9 - The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Absolutely context is very important. Prior to v.47 Jesus said 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Prior to that Jesus said, in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Prior to that Jesus said in John 3:15,16 15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It seems that what is really presumptuous is making claims that the Bible doesn't make. There is zero evidence for any kind of rapture. Every one of these "too many passages" requires conjecture. There are no straight ward verses in plain language. Every saved person (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes". Straightforward and plain language. No mention of a rapture to heaven. Remember what occurs WHEN the saints from heaven who will be accompanying Christ back to earth; wedding supper. The only logical placement of the Bema is AFTER the defeat at Armageddon and the wedding supper. Believers will be evaluated for "whatever they have done while in their bodies, whether GOOD or BAD" per 2 Cor 5:10. So abiding in Christ prepares the believer for reward at the Bema. Rewards have nothing to do with resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear; all believers will be resurrected at the same event: "when He comes". Reward will be issued at the Bema.

I may already be on that thread. Sorry I missed these "New Year's" posts. The only thing that is missing from what I am quoted above is any verse that describes a rapture of anyone at any time. How's that for thoroughness? Everyone dies. No big deal. And all souls go to one of two places: the saved are "at home with Jesus" per 2 Cor 5:6,8 and the unsaved go to Hades, awaiting the GWT. There are no deaths that "implicate" a rapture. What WOULD implicate a rapture is resurrection, yet in EVERY passage about the resurrection of the saved, there are NO descriptions of Jesus taking any resurrected person to heaven. OK if you don't think I'm accurate. I am accurate to say there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Oh, btw, the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 are most likely the 2 OT prophets were never died physically, but were just "taken up". That is not a resurrection, or that would nullify 1 Cor 15:23, plus they wouldn't be albe to die again during the Tribulation. And when they arise and to go heaven after 3.5 days dead body, the Bible doesn't make clear that they were resurrected into immoral bodies. I believe they will be resurrected into immortal bodies at the Second Advent, as 1 Cor 15:23 describes. This simply identifies which GENDER the child is. A male. I never said they won't. But none of them are THE King.

I just found this response. One of my main points is that there are no verses that describe a "rapture", meaning Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Since there aren't any, there is nothing to believe about "rapture", since it doesn't exist in Scripture. Only through speculation, conjecture and guessing, does one accept the teaching about a rapture.

The "new humanity", or as the Bible describes it in 2 Cor 5:17, a "new creation" or "new creature". This refers to believers being RE-generated, or born AGAIN, or "made alive" (Eph 2:5). Regeneration didn't begin at the resurrection of Jesus, but when the first person in humanity placed their faith in the coming Messiah. So people have been born AGAIN throughout humanity. I think so, because there is no such thing in the Bible as "Christ's new birth". That would indicate that Christ was "born again", which makes no sense. He was raised to life with an immortal body, a resurrection body. Was Lazarus' coming out of the grave a "new birth"? Obviously not. There is no support for that kind of wording in the Bible. It appears what you are thinking about is the "new creature/creation" of 2 Cor 5:17, which describes the believer as being born AGAIN, meaning his dead human spirit was given LIFE (eternal). What do you mean by "the brothers came into existence because of the resurrection of Christ the elder brother"? What verse says this? I'm not aware of any verse that speaks of "brothers coming into existence because of the resurrection of Christ".

I hear ya.

I made it up. But it seems to catch the meaning of the verse pretty well. 😊 When I am in discussion with another poster who disagrees with my view, I ask for correction and tell them I don't want to be wrong any more than they do. And they STILL don't show me where I'm wrong. I hate being wrong and no one will show me where or how I am. lol

Still not seeing anything in the Bible that refers to the resurrection of believers as a birth. The NEW birth is regeneration, not resurrection.

It is good to see others who use the Berean verification method (Acts 17:11) for determining who teaches truth vs who teaches "popular doctrines"! But it sure is very sad to realize how many believers have been taught erroneous doctrines that cannot be found in Scripture. And you are correct; it is difficult to maintain a civil discussion with such people.

Demons called Jesus the Son of God in Matt 8:29. His disciples called Him the Son of God in Matt 14:33. Peter acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God in Matt 16:16 Jesus admitted He was the Son of God to the Pharisees in Matt 26:63,64 The promise was fulfilled when Mary delivered Jesus. His resurrection demonstrated His power. This will be fulfilled at the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" "when He comes", the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:49 and 1 Tim 3:2

You're very welcome. My posts are directed to comments. If the other poster engages with me, I will respond.

Amen! 👍

Not what the Bible teaches. Christ wasn't born on His resurrection. The Psa refers to WHEN the Trinity decided the Second Member of the Trinity would take on humanity and go to the cross for mankind. Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with a birth. Acts 26:23 explains this easily. "that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” This is clearly a reference to His resurrection from the dead, with a resurrection body that was glorified, immortal and imperishable. iow, He was the FIRST human to receive this kind of body. And all believers will receive the same kind of body when all of them are resurrected at the same event, per 1 Cor 15:23. So that proves that none of the records of people being raised from the dead, in the OT and NT, received the glorified immortal body like Jesus had. All of them died again, because they came back to life in their physical mortal body. Please cite biblical evidence or scholarly statements that "day" refers to 'resurrection'. Jesus was born fully God and fully human. And the word "begotten" refers to the birth process, not resurrection. So I am asking for the evidence that led you to view "day" as "day of resurrection". Again, Acts 26:23 tells us that Jesus was the FIRST to receive a glorified resurrection body. That's all that means. All believers WILL BE conformed to the image of God's Son WHEN they receive their resurrection body. I think "firstborn" is equivalent to "only begotten Son". Nothing more than that. Or, 1:6 could just as easily say, "He brings again the Only Begotten".

Ah! The agenda is coming into focus. 😉

It was the First Advent at Jesus' birth to Mary where we see "the mingling of divinity and humanity". Jesus is THE God-man.

Well, yes and no. He raised Lazarus "back to life", Lazarus didn't receive an immortal glorified body, and subsequently died again. But with Jesus, He was the FIRST human to receive a glorified, immortal imperishable body. Acts 26:23 describes Him as "the first to rise from the dead", and hence He is the "Firstfruits" in 1 Cor 15:23, which describes the resurrection of all believers and when. The Bible does not describe either the simple "coming back to physical life" or the resurrection to glorified immortal imperishable life as a "birth". What the Bible does describe as a 'birth' is at the moment of faith in Christ when the Holy Spirit RE-generates the dead human spirit, also called being "born again" or the "new birth", or being "made alive", all biblical words. What verses speak of "following Christ as a new matter in the universe"? What is "new", specifically? OK. I'll stay tuned.

Thank you. Side note: how do you get "@FreeGrace" to appear in the dark purple background? Thanks. Still not quite sure what you're asking. The Bible doesn't use the term "resurrection of the spirit of man", but rather "regeneration", being "born again" or "made alive". All refer to the dead human spirit, which at the moment of saving faith the human spirit is regenerated or born again. When the Trinity said "Let US make man in OUR image" that was referring to creating man with 3 parts, just as the Trinity is 3 Persons, all God. So God created man with a body, soul and human spirit. We learn from Jesus at the well with a Samaritan woman that in order to worship God, we must worship "in spirit and in truth". But, the warning to Adam wasn't just "in the day you eat of it, you shall die", but "in the day you eat of it, dying, you shall die." In the original Hebrew, there are 2 deaths noted, but no English translation reflects this. So, Adam's sin resulted in 2 deaths. The immediate death "on the day..." was his human spirit, which is why Adam and the woman ran and hid when the Lord came calling. They had no capacity for relationship, as the human spirit had died. The "dying" refers to physical life, and their bodies began to die that day, from aging. Since A & E, all humans are born physically alive and spiritually dead (human spirit) and is why we all need to be born again. It literally refers to the dead human spirit being made alive or regenerated again. The Bible does describe the human spirit as being resurrected, but as being born AGAIN, or RE-generated, or made alive. The word resurrection is used in relation to the human body.

Seems you are asking me for my explanation of john 5:24. Is that correct? Because Jesus didn't define "whoever", it clearly is inclusive of anyone who believes. iow, He leaves no one out of possessing eternal life by believing. I love this verse because Jesus refers to the past, present and future for those who believe. past: but has crossed over from death to life (from spiritual death to eternal life) present: has eternal life (this is God's very life, since God is eternal) future: will not be judged (refers to the future judgment at the GWT and then cast into the lake of fire. An important point in this verse is that the verb 'believes' is in the present tense, and the word 'has' is in the present tense. This indicates that the very MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life. True. Exactly! Yes, sir. In John 8:24 Jesus tells those who don't believe in Him that they will die in their sins. Not sure of your point here. The "whoever" is a words of inclusiveness, and that means Jesus wasn't leaving any human being out of possessing eternal life. From the point in the verse about possessing from the MOMENT of believing, we need to study John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. This verse shows the result of being given the gift of eternal life; "they shall never perish". So, Jn 5:24 says one possesses eternal life from the MOMENT of belief, and Jn 10:28 says recipients of eternal life (Jn 5:24) shall never perish. These 2 verses together are the most clear verses on eternal security in the Bible. Those who believe in Christ for salvation are guaranteed from the MOMENT they believe that they shall never perish. All from the lips of Jesus Himself. I do not understand how anyone who claims to be a believer in Christ can think that salvation can be lost.

You keep making reference to 3.5 years. Most scholars view the Tribulation as a 7 yr event. Could you explain. And there can be NO resurrection before the tribulation or even during it because of 1 Cor 15:23 which says that at the Second Advent ALL believers will be resurrected. There is no wriggle room here. Correct. And none of this relates to any resurrection. One must assume resurrection is any of these verses. And if there is, the the Bible is conflicted because Dan 12:2, John 5:24, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 all indicate only one resurrection for believers. This is just trying to bypass the truth of 1 Cor 15:23. By what authority do you claim your view is free to bypass ANY verse in the Bible? So, to say 1 Cor 15:23 "is a general statement" only means one is able to ignore the singular resurrection indicated in that verse and come up with however many resurrection one "sees". 1 Cor 15:23 IS the proof that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes" which is the Second Advent (Heb 9:28), and there is no scenario for any resurrected believer to be IN heaven at any time. That covers #1-3. As to #4, it's all symbolic or figures of speech, and I don't know what they refer to. Nobody does, actually. 1 Cor 15:23 does all that. My explanation is biblical. Which is "better": what the Bible says or what you conclude from figures of speech or metaphors? Are you actually suggesting that those who come up with an explanation of metaphors or figures of speech show approval over those who admit we can't know what John was thinking when he wrote??? This verse is in the context of the abuse of the Lord's Table in Corinth. It has nothing to do with "interpreting" parables, figures of speech or metaphors. It has everything to do with lifestyle. "wrong conjecture"? Rather, to CONJECTURE that there is a resurrection and rapture in Ch 12 is wrong. Well, excuse me then. I'll say "most of the signs". How's that? Sure. When verses INCLUDE the meaning, of course. You know I am referring to all the verses which to NOT include the meaning. Why don't we just focus on what the Bible clearly states, like 1 Cor 15:23 from which to inform us about the resurrection of believers, and leave all the verses that aren't in plain language alone. Does it really matter if we don't have the names and addresses of "the 7 thunders"? How does that change your life? Not one bit. That is my view of all the prophecies that are not in plain language. We'll understand it WHEN (IF) we live through enough of the Tribulation to see these things come to pass. Before then, we don't need to know. It's all just guessing and conjecture. What's to "hear"? All you've got so far is conjecture (guessing). No one knows what John was thinking. And it doesn't matter because if we are alive when it comes to pass, it will be obvious. And guess what: just like Jesus' disciples, it will be confirmation of the veracity of the Bible. None of what isn't clearly states is pertinent. It will become exceedingly pertinent to those who will be alive when they come to pass. No one is told to try to figure out the metaphors or figures of speech. They simply describe what will come to pass, and will be pertinent to those who SEE them when they unfold. None of it will help you now. Rather, have hope in the clear and plain language of Scripture. God doesn't expect or even command that we try to figure out the figures of speech. Sure. But there is NOTHING to conjecture about this selective resurrection/rapture scenario. Of course all the spiritually mature believers, the overcomers will be blessed with eternal rewards, and reign with Christ in His kingdom. But there is nothing about more than 1 resurrection. That is what will be rewarded. Rather, all the saints in heaven are all the saints who have already died and therefore are in heaven. They prepare for the wedding supper, and the end of the Tribulation. That is pure conjecture. The army of ch 19 is ALL of the dead saints that accompany the King back to earth, and they are the first to receive resurrection bodies, all explained in 1 Thess 4:13-17. Well, I think you are just "seeing things". My opinion is quite reasonable. The prophecies couched in figures of speech and metaphors AREN'T meant for anyone before they unfold. They are meant for believers who will actually SEE them unfold, which will confirm the the veracity of Scripture. The Bible says "many are called, FEW are chosen". Matt 22:14 All of this is about spiritual growth to maturity and is NOT about multiple resurrections. No it isn't His "perogative". That would make the Bible a LIAR, because there are plenty of verses that SAY in plain language that there will be a singular resurrection of all the saved, when He comes back. God cannot contradict Himself, which is basically what you are claiming. "tied"? Let's not get so dramatic. What God SAYS goes. God is consistent and pure TRUTH. The unclear verses in prophecy aren't for anyone BEFORE they unfold. God never contradicts Himself, nor does His Word. I'm really surprised that you say what you do.

That is the view of atheists. So they believe there are no consequences after one dies. The Bible speaks of resurrection frequently. To your question, the definition of "resurrection" means to come back from the dead. iow, we know from James 2:26 that physical dead is when the soul/spirit leaves the body. "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." So, a resurrection is when the soul/spirit returns to the physical body. There are many examples of this in the Bible, 2 in the OT and many in the NT. Gen 2:7 describes how God created (bara) and made (asah) Adam, the first human being. He began with the physical (physiological) body, from the chemicals in the ground. Then He breathed into the body the "breath of life", which is the immaterial soul/spirit complex. It was at this time that the body/soul-spirit became a "living soul" or human being. That means a body without the soul/spirit is not a human being. It is a shell. Science is able to keep bodies without the soul/spirit physiologically alive. But the "person" isn't there any more. The lights are on, but nobody's home.

As I pointed out in my previous post, 2 Cor 5:10 is very clear about the fact that all believers will be judged for the things they have done, whether good or bad. This judgment has nothing to do with where they will go for eternity, but rather, is about whether or not they will receive eternal reward. In John 5:24, Jesus was referring to "eternal condemnation" that no believer will be judged for.

I never said that believers in Christ will not be judged, because every believer WILL BE judged by Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. What you may have misunderstood and I may have not been clear enough, but I did say that Jesus Christ will reign over the nations of the earth during the Millennium, all of which will be survivors of the tribulatio0n, and unbelievers. Since all believers will receive a glorified immortal imperishable resurrection body at the Second Advent (1 Cor 15:23), they will either "reign with Christ" (2 Tim 2:12) or serve Him in His kingdom. He won't be "ruling over them" during the Millennium. Sorry if I wasn't more clear.