Fiosh

That is simply not true. An argument can be made that the Bible does not explicitly cite homosexuality as sin. Not saying I buy it. But there are those that interpret it as such.

If you want to add these qualifiers to your argument: They say... * I don't care what the Bible says about homosexuality * I don't believe a lot of what the Bible says anyway * It was just written by a bunch of men anyway * no one is certain about how much of it is true anyway * They try to make King David and Johnathan into homosexual lovers. * They believe that Jesus might have had homosexual tendencies * They challenge the inspiration and innerrancy of the Bible and its credibility in a host of other areas as well. Then we are having a different debate, and I would tend to agree that an individual with this attitude is not surrendered to Christ.

Old hairy legs isn't afraid of me. He's afraid of me and Jesus. James 4: 7-8 "So submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you" Read it again Afal, "Resist the devil, and he WILL flee from you. " Not he might. He WILL. You can bank on it.

))))))))))))))))))))))) psssssssssssssssssssst! Afal (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( I'll tell you a secret, but you gotta promise not to tell anyone else. There have been times in my life that I've been afraid of Satan, too. I've felt weak and unable to stand against him. At those times, I've cried out to my Father, my Abba, Daddy, to send His angels to chase old hairy legs away from me, and to take me into the protection of His loving arms. Try it sometime. And don't tell anyone what I said. Love, Fiosh

Awesome verse!

We're just throwing out ideas and thoughts. No one knows exactly what God has in mind for you, Afal. And He often unfolds His plans gradually. But we do know that you can trust Him with your life. And we are all praying for you Afal. He gives you the grace you need to make it thru TODAY. His mercies are new each day. Bless you sister, Fiosh

Hi Afal, Remind yourself that faith is not a feeling; God's love is a reality----even when you don't feel it----even when you are flat on your face. So when that happens, and all your faith is suddenly gone, and all those verses disappear, start with the basics: "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief! Give me the faith to rely on your love and your power. Help me to trust in You even when I feel lost and alone". God will meet you where you are. Remember the Prodigal Son? All he had to do was turn around and start down the road toward home. His father was watching for him, and when he spied his son far off, he RAN to meet him. God knows our weaknesses, Afal. Tell Him that when you are flat on your face you have questions about His methods of loving you. Ask for trust. ******************************************************** Re: email Retirement is not always permanent. I know a guy who "retired" 4 times. Hey, look at all the music artists and their multiple "farewell" concerts. Maybe you need a hiatus; maybe not. That you'll need to decide after prayerful consideration. But if you do "retire" its not the end, only the beginning of a new phase of your life. He will redeem your pain and help you to rise out of the ashes. God has something wonderful planned for you, Afal. He is faithful, even thru the darkest hour. Love, F

Oh, its on now...............this means war!

Here's where you are making you mistake, Shiloh. You assume that yours is the only right and true interpretation of Holy Scripture. (For the record, I know of at least one major error you have in your theology.) However, even though I know you are right in this case---that the homosexual lifestyle is sin and an abomination---not everyone sees it that way. A person with a mal-formed conscience can, for a time (and I say "for a time"), be unable to see their sin. This is not an unwillingness "to submit to God's authority as a moral lawgiver and to the moral authority of the Word of God." It is ignorance. Which may change to rationalization, and then eventually to a realization and conviction.

RE: "those in the sloppy theology camp " reported to mods

I agree that there are degrees of ignorance; just as there are degrees of culpability.

Thank you SP for such a big hug this morning. I needed that. I was doing fine until about 20 minutes ago. It was then that I received an e-mail which has caused me to break down crying once again. I am just so sensitive!! But hey! that is the way that God created me! God bless you SP EVERY time satan throws something at you, immediately turn right back around and give it to God, then make yourself think of a blessing God has given you and thank Him for it, let all of satans arrows just make you turn to the Lord more! Thats what I try to do when I get depressed and satan tries to tell me all of the things against me. If satan wants to hurt you, let it make your prayer life richer, and make you talk to God more. And there are MORE things to thank our God for, than satan has arrows and I firmly believe that! Listen to her, Afal. Scarletprayers is a very wise woman. It comes with age. (she's gonna kill me ) Can you share the "gist" of the email that upset you, or is it too personal? Love & hugs, Fiosh

It all hinges on the development of one's conscience. If I may borrow from the Catechism: IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed. 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin." In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits. 1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. 1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. 1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith." The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.

It's difficult to know what to believe considering that less than 40 years ago scientists were worried about "global cooling": (wonder where Al Gore was then???) The Cooling World Newsweek, April 28, 1975 www.denisdutton.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the text of Newsweek

A person doesn't come to repentance unless they have been convicted of some sin and are in need of a saviour. Before I came to the Lord, I was guilty of every sin in the book plus. How did I know because the Holy Spirit drew my attention to them through the bible I had been reading. Why bother repenting if you think your lifestyle is not sinful. We have newspapers, tele radio and computers. People know right from wrong today, especially those who are involved of sexual promiscuity and to say differently is a cop out. Kids are taught it at school, before they learn to read and write. Naivete flew out the window decades ago. Unfortunately, eric, you are right. Naivete' did fly out the window. Only instead of helping us to know right from wrong, the constant media bombardment tries to convince us that anything goes. Look at all the TV shows and movies that glamorize the homosexual lifestyle. How about the fact that public schools are trying to introduce teaching that homosexual unions are "normal", into the classroom, under the guise of "tolerance"? This is in no way an excuse for sin. But it is possible to convince oneself that it is "ok"----at least for a while. Eventually, the conviction of the Holy Spirit will be impossible to ignore. Peace, Fiosh

Is that a fact? See below. Which torpedoes the "sinning out of ignorance" argument. Rationalizing away what the Bible says about homosexuality does not qualify as ignorance. Once they are confronted with what the Bible says, they are no longer "ignorant" and it does not really matter what "interpretation" they follow. It doesn't "torpedo" anything. Just the opposite. It demonstrates that Christians interpret Scripture differently. Just as some Christians look at Scripture and find divorce/re-marriage acceptable, and some see it as sin-----some Christians see homosexuality (lived out) as acceptable and some see it as sin. Do you realize that there are more pastors in more denoms than I want to even think about that accept homosexuality as completely ok? (Which is why we need the Church to interpret Scripture---but that's a whole other debate.) Whether they are in open rebellion to Christ, or blind, or just plain ignorant, we are still bound to confront them and show them it is sin. However, Scripturally speaking, their degree of guilt will depend upon their understanding.

Interesting point. I've got to think about this a bit.

With all due respect, eric, while I can see this from your perspective, I think you underestimate man's ability to blind himself to his own sin---to refuse to admit that it IS sin. Maybe Pastor Bob is a weak analogy, but I think there are plenty of Christians who view porn and tell themselves it is not sin. Evenso, note that the letter to the Corinthians is addressed to "the church of God at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints..." Paul then goes on in Chapter 5 & 6 to lecture them on immoral practices. He does not tell them they are not Christians or brothers, but rather tells them to stop their wicked practices. Peace, Fiosh

That's actually an excellent question, firehill. When one accepts Christ, do they suddenly become aware of ALL their sin? If so, then why do many of us experience a gradual awareness of more and more sin in our lives that was not always apparent? If not, then is it possible to be living in sin and not realize it "suddenly" upon acceptiing Christ, but be convicted at some later point in time?

I don't believe attributed all of that to you, although some of it would be an accurate representation of where your ideas will lead. I am operating from the inevitable end result of your false teaching. You are simply unwilling deal with this realistically and biblically. If you accept someone as a full Christian while they are continuing to live in the homosexual lifestyle under the belief that is homosexual lifestyle is not sinful, you are only reinforcing that belief. You will have a harder time convincing him that homosexuals cannot be ordained or participate as a full member in the Church. If he is "just as Christian as you and I" as you stated earlier, then you lack the moral ground to forbid him the full rights and privileges of you and I. That is certainly a consideration. However, the fact that one is saved does not automatically give one all the rights of a member in full communion with the body. For instance, in my church, an individual who divorces and re-marries, may worship with the body, but is not allowed to participate in the Holy Eucharist. The Church teaches that divorce/re-marriage is the equivalent of adultery. Many may disagree, but that's how the RCC interprets Scripture. The RCC teaches the need for repentance. However, we don't teach that they are all going to hell and cannot participate in worship. No, I said that a person who has repented of homosexuality and realizes it is sin, but continues to struggle with it is not the person about whom my remarks are directed. I said I was not challenging the faith of a Christian who is still struggling with his former lifestyle. Please clarify.....can the person who actually returns to an active homosexual lifestyle, albeit intermittently, be a Christian? 1. Your analogy is completely dissimilar to the poarticular situation I am addressing in this thread. We are not talking about someone with an "addiction." We are talking about someone who participates in a sin that God has called abomnible and refusing to accept God's moral authority on the issue. You are missing the point. Both are engaged in sin w/o admitting it is sin. 2. You don't even know how to run a good analogy because in your analogy, Pastor Bob does not try to convince himself that it is not a sin; only that it is not hurting anyone else. Your last sentence is tries to operate from a false assumption that thinking that a particular action is excusable on the grounds that it is not hurting anyone else is the same thinking it is not sin. In saying that it isn't hurting anyone, Pastor Bob is trying to convince himself that it is not sin. Maybe I should have spelled that out more plainly. The difference is that I am not addressing what a person does in ignorance. Rather, I am addressing what a person is doing in the fulll knowledge that God has deemed it a sin and an abomination, but rejecting that because he believes he can operate from a higher moral standard than God does. He refuses to accept God judgment of the matter. Therefore, it is not a case of ignorance, but a case of open rebellion. And I AM addressing a person that is sinning out of ignorance. You assume that everyone accepts the same interpretation of Scipture that you and I accept. But a homosexual will argue that the same Old Testament Scripture that calls homosexuality an abomination also tells you to stone your mother-in-law and kill your wife for certain sins. And he will argue that the New Testament reference to homosexuality isn't actually about homosexuality. NOT saying they are correct. Just pointing out that they will try to rationalize and refuse to see it as sin.

Shiloh, Please feel free to shred my argument all you want, but the personal insults are un-becoming and will be reported. ex. ": Maybe you should take some reading comprehension courses so you canlearn how to tell when I am addressing the comments of others vs. yours."

SURRRRRRRRE, what ever you say........................ I couldn't find an emoticon that gives the "raspberries"!

Hi there, Shiloh......and all the rest of you beautiful people. Let me clarify my position; you seem to have added to it. This is from my original post: ******************************************************************************** Consider I Timothy 1:12-16: 12 I am grateful to him who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me trustworthy in appointing me to the ministry. 13 I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and an arrogant man, but I have been mercifully treated because I acted out of ignorance in my unbelief. 14 Indeed, the grace of our Lord has been abundant, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am the foremost. 16 But for that reason I was mercifully treated, so that in me, as the foremost, Christ Jesus might display all his patience as an example for those who would come to believe in him for everlasting life. (Please forgive the bolding, it's only for the purpose of discussion.) Point #1 - Paul uses the present tense in verse 15........"I am the foremost". Point #2 - Paul states that he was treated mercifully because he "acted out of ignorance". (verse 13) Point #3 - Jesus is amazingly patient with sinners (verse 16) Yes, I do know several Christians who are practicing homosexuals. They love Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and Saviour. From what I know and observe, they are in denial of their sin--------not rebellion. Let's face it, we ALL try to rationalize and justify our particular weaknesses. If a homosexual admits that the homosexual lifestyle is sinful, and he/she engages in it willingly and with no desire to change. Then, yeah, I agree, they cannot also be Christian. But, if a homosexual fails to see that their lifestyle is sinful, they are as Christian as any of us. Will God eventually open their eyes and convict them of their sin? I believe so. He's done it to me several times about sin in my own life. *************************************************************************** Now here's what I DID NOT say: 1. I DID NOT say that we should not teach the truth to a practicing h, showing them from Scripture that h is sin 2. I DID NOT say that they should be allowed to participate in ministry in the Church 3. I DID NOT say they they should be told their lifestyle is ok, and be "coddled" into a false sense of well-being 4. I DID NOT even say that they should be welcomed into a Church body as a member in full communion with the rest of the congregation. ******************************************************************************* Shiloh, even you conceded the point that a h who repents but backslides into the practice again can still be a Christian. All I'm saying is that an h who does not yet see that the lifestyle is sin can be a Christian. God's word shows us His mercy on those who do not see their sin. This is not emotional......it is Scriptural. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" "I have been mercifully treated because I acted out of ignorance in my unbelief. " "If you were blind, you would have no sin" ********************************************************************* Do not put words in my mouth. And do not throw up straw men just so you can try to look like you are making points. Stick to arguing with what I'm actually saying. [unless, of course, you are talking to someone else, but I guess that's understood. ] Have you ever heard of "Every Man's Battle"? It's a book and also a workshop. It is widely attended---- so I hear from the author's radio show---- by pastors who struggle with porn addiction. It stands to reason that there are also many out there addicted to porn, but have not yet admitted their sin. Admitting your problem is always the first step to recovery. Hypothetical situation: Pastor Bob accepted Jesus when he was 18. He studied in seminary for many years and eventually achieved his Doctor of Divinity. He's got his own church and loves his congregation, and loves the Lord. There is nothing he enjoys more than preparing his weekly sermon. One day he was sitting at his computer working on his sermon when he accidentally typed in the wrong address and up popped a porn site. He quickly closed it. Then, thinking, "what will a quick look hurt?" , he opens it again and checks it out for the educational value, of course. The next week, he decides to take another look. Then follows a link to another site..........then another..........All the while telling himself, "I'm not hurting anyone", etc. It soon becomes a habit-----then an addiction. There is absolutely no doubt that the second he opened that first site, the Holy Spirit began convicting him. But he pushed it aside; he didn't want to hear it. It may be a month or several months, or a year. But the Holy Spirit will bring him to the point of conviction where he will KNOW it is sin, and NEED to choose. While Pastor Bob is viewing porn and seeing nothing sinful about it, is he a Christian? Peace, Fiosh

Hello and goodnight, Afal. Just got home. I was away for a few days. Sorry you're feeling sad. If you are still here.....think about this as you fall asleep: If the world takes away all that you have, you still have God's promise of an eternity of glorious peace, love and happiness with Him! It helps keep things in perspective. Nite, nite, little sis, Fiosh

DISCLAIMER: The opinion of one bishop in the Netherlands does not represent the opinions, beliefs, or teachings of the Roman Catholic Church..........or for that matter, pretty much any Catholic with a lick of common sense.