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His will with regards to what? In Christ, Eric

Zayit, I appreciate your story and I can respect your postition on the matter, whether we ever agree on it or not. Thank you again for your input. I am not considering using hypnosis for anything at this time. More background, perhaps? I fist came across hypnosis/hypnotherapy years ago while I was still in the Navy. I met a military doctor that offered hypnotherapy for weight-loss and smoking at the Portsmouth hospital. In talking with him I also learned that he was a Christian, and an active one at that. He was a trustee at the Baptist church he attended. He sang in the choir and his wife taught Sunday school. (Mind you, I do not offer any of those things up as "good" Christian service. I understand that is something different. I only mean to show that he was active in his faith.) Anyway, at the time I filed that away in my head and forgot about it. As I stated originally, the subject has come up again in a number of areas in my life. (school, co-workers, family friends) and in looking more deeply at it (primarily for school) I found a good number of "Christian" writers opposed to it. (Notice I used quotation marks around Christian this time. I have never met any of the authors and cannot speak for their faiths.) I now had a contradiction. My first exposure to hypnotherapy was from a man I believe to have been a Christian and now I was reading some "Christian" material which opposed hypnosis. That some authors are opposed to something is not enough to take a stand on. I also found some "Christian" writers who spoke very well of hypnotherapy. This is why I deepened my personal study and also posted the topic on this board. As I expected, some of you have said "what's the problem" and some of you have said "stay away from it". I expected that, but I want to look at as many angles as possible. In Christ, Eric

Agreed. (Mind you we enter here into unfathomable theology where it is most likely best to admit our ignorance and trust Him) However, God reminds us in Isa. that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. His are higher than ours. Whether something is "right" because God says so or God does things a certain way because they are right...I think it is irrelevant here. If God grants eternal life to all children who die then that is Right and Just, however, if He chooses from them some for His own and does not choose others then that is Right and Just. The fact that God does not tell us what He will do in such circumstances leaves us only in a position to trust that He will do what is Right and Just. What that is is impossible to say. He sure did. BUT that only says something about these two men. That logic does not necessarily apply to all children. It may, but these passages are not proof of such. This is especially true when we incorporate what you have already reminded us of: Acts 10:34b God is no respecter of persons: This is the leap that I am referring to. These speak to nothing more than the "type" of faith which God desires from us, childlike (innocent, unquestioning, trusting, etc) and that God has chosen to use the "weak" things of this world to confound the wise. It really is not any support for all children being granted eternal life. I want to end by saying that my point is not that some children go to heaven and some to hell. My point is that we don't know and can't say. It is best then to refrain from being dogmatic about it and let God be God. In Christ, Eric

Nice cut and paste job. But you left out some of the important stuff...like: The scriptures are silent on that matter. It's up to God, not us. I can't tell you where any child is going. I can tell you that if they all go to heaven then that is Right and Just. But, if from that group God chooses some as His own and does not choose others than that is Right and Just. I tend to believe that God will choose His own, but that is just my impression. Again, the scripture is silent on the matter, so it is best left up to God not us. In Christ, Eric

That is up to God...not me. All I said is that an "age of accountability" is not spoken of in the scriptures. To give you the answer I think you're looking for: yes, I suppose some children may be granted eternal life while others are not. God knows His own. But again, let me stress...that is up to God, not me. They may all go to heaven. I don't see any scriptural backing for that, but it's possible. I think I should stress one last time: its up to God, not us. Unfortunately, the scripture is very silent on the matter of children and eternal life. That is why it is best left up to God, not us....sorry I said it again. In Christ, Eric

Exactly, there is no "age of accountability" spoken of in the scripture. Some have interpreted King David's statement about his dead son as support. Hmmm...maybe, but it is far too weak a stance to base a whole doctrine on. At best, it speaks only to David's son, not the world of young people. At worst it assumes the intended meaning of "go to him" to mean see him in heaven. I have found the doctrine lacking. But I encourage you to study and judge for yourself. In Christ, Eric

Thanks!! ...I think

...or performing surgery, or prescribing medication, etc... I think the point is He is the Son of God. He was able to accomplish things by unnatural (miraculous) means. We must seek a more natural method to healing. And for all of those that will immediately reply "We should seek God for healing", first I agree, BUT does that also mean you won't consult a physician? When you are diagnosed with cancer will you refuse surgery and medication? I meet very few who would. Whether or not that is true (I'll see if there is any data) that is a poor excuse to comdemn hypnosis as sinful. And if that was not your intention, then what bearing does it hold in this conversation? Thanks for the feedback. In Christ, Eric

Sure you did. When you said I am only looking to justify what I want to do, implying that I am willingly deaf to the "truth". You ignore the possibility that you may be wrong and insinuate that I am argumentative and stubborn. Sister, here you and I may disagree again. (I apologize ) What you seem to speak of borders on "revelation". God has already spoken on the matters we will face: His written word. We seem to disagree on the purpose of prayer, God's word and will, and the reasonable expectations of man. These are all other subjects that do not really apply here, so I will avoid commenting on them too much, however, your reply of "go pray about it" offers nothing. I am attempting to state this belief in the kindest words I can find and have rewritten this paragraph a number of times. I hope it is received peaceably. This is why I have asked others to give their opinions and enlighten those opinions with scripture, not their own personal "revelation". Here again. You claim that you do not call into question the integrity of my Christian walk yet you say I am only "looking to justify what I want to do" and also that I am arguing with the word of God. Ok...this is obviously not a subject that you are comfortable disagreeing about. I can respect that. Again, I mean you no insult, I hope you have not felt so. In Christ, Eric

C'mon now...that's a little uncalled for. You question the integrity of my Christian walk and yet the only thing you know about me is I don't see hypnosis as wrong? I thought the whole point of this board was to discuss topics of interest: to get a different perspective, to double check you own conclusions, etc. I don't agree with you and I'm just "looking for justification to do what want to do."? ...bad form. I asked you to provide sources for some of your conclusions. I never attacked your interpretations...in fact, to one responder, I relisted the passages he sited and asked him to explain how he read the conclusions he came to in those verses. I am not so bull-headed as to say that simply because your arguments are unconvincing that you must indeed be wrong. You may be right. I may be wrong. Oh well...it's been fun. I do thank you for your input, even though we disagree. I also hope you feel that I have extended the hand of fellowship and family love to you in our discussion, sister. If I have not, I ask your forgiveness. I hope there is peace between us more than I care to agree on this topic. In Christ, Eric

I think you misapply this verse. This speaks specifically to the intimate/sexual relationship of a husband and wife, ordering them to not avoid intimacy unless it be for fasting and prayer....and then to "come together" again so they do not become tempted to go elswhere. This speaks nothing to hypnosis. Ultimately, I disagree with you regarding hypnosis/hypnotherapy. I find nothing in the scripture condemning it (the opposite perhaps being true). Also, I reject completely the idea that a born again individual can even be possessed by demonic forces, though they may tempt and abuse a child of God, they can in no way possess them. Yet still, I do not see in any way that hypnosis opens one up to such temptation or abuse by its use alone. In Christ, Eric

I could not get your link to work, but I own a book called "Hypnosis and the Christian". It is very much opposed to hypnosis so I expect the arguments are similar. I find the argument that occultists have used hypnosis somewhat lacking. They have used a number of things common to Christianity. What others have/have not done holds no sway over what is right/permissible to Christians and what is not. Is it commanded, is it forbidden, is it never mentioned in the scripture: these are the things we should concern ourselves with. I ask then, in what ways does the scripture speak to the matter of hypnosis/hypnotherapy? How do you reach this conclusion? I am open to your understanding, but what source leads you to believe such? If it is mere speculation (that hypnosis equals irresistible mind control) then such arguments seem lacking. I have read much about the subject and find nothing (yet) but the opposite asserted: that an individual cannot be made to do anything they do not want to do. This is the basis for autohypnosis (self induced/lead) Very broad. I assume you do not include coffee/pop (caffeine) in that statement, but we use it ?daily? to feel more awake. We prescribe morphine to surgery patients for extreme pain management and anyone who has ever taken this drug knows hallucinations are all but a given. And what about anti-depressants? For depression which is biological, is it sin to take such medications? I do not intend to be argumentative, but some have made very broad sweeping statements which could be applied to things not covered under the topic at hand, and which I never heard condemned before. If they differ from hypnosis/hypnotherapy, then I only ask how? In Christ, Eric

Yes, I am aware of that. However, stoning specifically (which is the topic at hand) is not commanded to Noah. This is why I have referrenced it to the giving of the Law to Israel. I lose you here. Are you denying such a thing as an "age of Grace" on the grounds that it is an extra-Biblical term? Do you, then, deny all other doctrines with extra-Biblical titles? Some clarification of what you mean and how it applies to this topic would be helpful. In Christ, Eric

Zayit, Interesting thoughts. Can I assume you are against all pain reducing agents during birth, then? (epideral, pain medicine, a cool cloth on the forehead, etc.) And if these are permissable, why are they different? I really am not trying to be argumentative, I just wonder where you see the line drawn and how you come to your conclusion. All your thoughts are much appreciated as I continue to mull this subject over.

Could you clarify what you're asking? Are you saying that Christ was saying not to stone someone for adultery? I guess I don't get what you're getting at. In Christ, Eric

T & O, Stoning is no doubt a very brutal death but where the scripture speaks of stoning it speaks in plain terms. I don't see that God "acknowledged" stoning. He was giving His people His law...had He wanted beheading (for example) to be the means of execution He would have said so. I would have to say, then, that not only did God approve of it, he ordered it. If we struggle to understand that in light of "God's Love" then how are we to comprehend Hell? Surely no torment is greater. Perhaps we misunderstand God's love...who it is given to, what it entails. Perhaps we compartmentalize God, forgetting that He is One...ie. being loving in no way deminishes His Righteous Justice and Judgement. I don't know. Before a slew of people jump on me, though, reminding me that we live in the age of Grace and throw hypothetical/rhetorical questions at me ad infinitum like "So you think we should stone people?"...allow me to say that I tend to be anti-capital punishment. It is plain, however, that in that instance (Israel receiving the Law) God ordered executions by stoning. I must accept that as Just and Right. Just my two cents. In Christ, Eric

Women use hypnosis to manage the pain of childbirth. They require no drugs and purportedly give birth in a calm and relaxing way. Most of the Christian writing I found were quick to label hypnosis/hypnotherapy as demonic, or sinful at the least. In Christ, Eric

Recently the subject of hypnosis and hypnotherapy has come up a great deal in my life. We discussed it in my psychology class, my wife's friend is doing "hypno-birthing", and a coworker quit smoking using hypnosis. I have studied the subject in some great detail consequently and come to my own opinions, but because of a definite trend I saw in Christian writing on the topic I wanted to see what the board thought. Is it a natural trait/ability, given us by God just as dreaming and imagination are...or is it a tool of Satan by which demonic attack/posession are possible outcomes? I'll save my opinion on the matter for a later post (if this one takes off) and see, first, what others have to say. I want, also, to point out that I am not referring to "stage" hypnosis in which people quack like ducks. I am talking about the "clinical" use of hypnosis for diagnosing/curing problems. In Christ, Eric

Hi again, I saw someone mentioned my name a few weeks ago. I haven't dissappeared and I still read the board from rare time to rare time, but his semester has been rougher than I expected. Add to that my wife, 5 children, the duties of trustee at church, and my full time job and....well, let's just say I have NO time right now to answer. Hopefully I will be able to return soon. Oh, and nice post sdcintrurons...though I wouldn't say that denying Calvinism is akin to being lost...or denying salvation I enjoyed your allusions. There are far more doctrines out there than "God does it" and "Man does it"....many have the truth but lack the understanding of maturity. (and remember, I DON'T consider myself a Calvinist...he and his folk weren't too kind to my folk back then. Though I would dare to say I hold stronger predestinationist views than many Calvinists ) But ultimately that does not matter...let me be a liar and God true if I am wrong about it. In Christ, Eric

This subject has been discussed recently in some depth. A word of caution if you intend to proceed....TREAD LIGHTLY! The fate of all is best left in the hands of God. What we understand that fate to be is ultimately of no importance. But, since you've raised the question... Then why do they die? Death only comes by sin. Mind you I am NOT saying that these little ones have some grevious sin to their charge, but that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"[1] is a fact most plainly stated. Every human ever to have lived, no matter how long, has at the least a sin nature passed on from Adam. Paul also instructs us to be like him, yet he was a sinner. Understand what it is about the children and Paul that we are to be like. Of children, we must mimic their simpleness of faith. Of Paul we must follow his uncompromising dependence on Christ. This statement of Jesus' does not elevate the young to sinlessness. How then shall they be judged who have never heard the gospel, or even the name of Jesus. "No man cometh to the Father but by"[2]Jesus. I would summarize my belief like this: age neither assures nor prevents salvation. All that the Father has chosen will be saved. I see some good reasons to believe that infants are afforded eternal life HOWEVER I do not believe those reasons to be conclusive. I am open to the possibility that there will indeed be some who die in infancy and are not granted eternal life. Ultimately, then, it is best to leave the salvation of the young in the Father's infinitely wise hands. In Christ, Eric

I'll avoid the general topic of predestination. I'm already involved in a rather lengthy thread on that. Come join us if you like -"Calvin vs. Arminius. But the specific case of Pharoah is interesting. I was wondering why you think he was given a free will choice prior to his heart being hardened. God informed Moses at the burning bush that He would harden Pharoah's heart so that he would not let the people go. It was intended from the beginning that this should be so. It was the means by which God chose to "show all His wonders" in the land of Egypt. In Christ, Eric

This discussion has already been had-extinsively- in "Who's sleeping in the dust?" Do we really need to start the whole thing over again? In Christ, Eric

Butterflykisses, Do you always get so deffensive when someone disagrees with you? I wasn't trying to start a fight, but I thought it fair that answers be given to some of your questions. I do have a few more comments to make, though and also: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok...I'm trying to guage what you're saying here, but I just don't see it. I have no disagreement with these verses, that would be ludicrous. But you still did not answer my request. If the gift is offered to everyone, then explain to me in what way that it is offered to those who will never hear the gospel, let alone the name of Jesus. I submit that it is not offered to all.

Please explain for me, then, how that gift is offered to those who will never hear the gospel...let alone the name of Jesus.