Kansasdad

I like your apinion God Bless Kansas Dad

God Bless you as well! Bryan

I agree with this paragraph completely. God Bless, Kansas Dad side note, when I posted the word "you" in previous post I was not refereing to any individuals, If that is how it was understood, I apologize. I was trying to convey a broader sense of people in general. My english teacher told me never to use the word you, for the reader could mis-understand the meaning. Sorry

I would say that the bible always give examples of how good works are a part of real faith, for Faith without it is dead. It isn't faith. Shiloh357 stated it like this "What you are trying to say, it appears is that what you are trying to say in this post is that faith is not mental assent. Faith is not simply the intellectual acknowledgement of the truth. I know many people who believe that God exists, and give reverence even to Jesus and they have great respect for the Scriptures. But all they have is mental assent. That is not faith since they fail to act on what they know to be true. They refuse to surrender to the Lord." One doesn't come before the other they are a package deal. Part of "good works" also include what we think upon. Do we hold on to our hate, anger, lust, or do we surrender to the Lord. Works can be as much mental as physical. God Bless, Kansas Dad

I didn't catch where he said this, but this is a very long thread. God Bless; Kansas Dad ps. Your summary of what I am trying to say(mental assent) is very good Thank you

Again, at what point was David declared righteous? Did God declare him righteous after he walked out in FAITH only with God's Armor and killed the giant Goliath? Was that the end of David's sin and the beginning of only good works? Of coarse NOT. Was Noah already declared righteous through obedience for building the ark when he stumbled into drunkenness... AFTER the waters had receded? Was Moses declared righteous before he struck the rock in unrighteous anger? What of Solomon, the King who built God's temple yet married hundreds of wifes and allowed their paganism to infect his household? Was his works enough to offset his disobedience in building a mighty army contrary to God's will? Those who tie their works to salvation have a set the bar high for themselves and others. There is no perfection apart from Jesus Christ. When Paul asked us, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" he didn't say my works and my obedience! He simply stated, "Thanks be to God

Thank you for point that out, I guess that I must be fundamentally flawed, and having such a deep seated Christian point that out will surly bring me closer to God. I have decided that I am not going to debate any of you, I have stated what I believe and given you the scripture that support this belief. I will gladly read what you believe and the scripture that led you to your belief. If you ask me a direct question like EricH did, I will try to respond. If your sole purpose is to prove me wrong then good for you but I am not going to respond. SJ I have notice that your post have been much less confrontational, and I do very much appreciate that. God Bless Kansas Dad

Demonstrate your contention that faith is goode work plus belief byt the logical relationships laid out in Ephesians 2:8-10. It clearly states that works are subsequent to faith. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No that is not what I was trying to say, If that is what came through I have not explained myself well. another example, As many have stated, having faith includes a changing of the heart. Like, if you are holding on to hatred, or anger, you let it go, you give it up, you no longer cling to it. This is also doing, not just physical, but mental. But it isn't a one time shot. Faith still includes all the ingredients. You can not believe and then work for it. Works are an intricate part of the faith. Works, belief, repentance, it all comes together. It is a package deal. You take an ingredient out and you don't have faith. ie; faith with out works is dead, works cannot save any man, It has been asked several times on this board. How do you define Faith? Several have defined it by a single ingredient, it needs to be understood as a whole. God Bless Kansas Dad

This has bothered me many time. The concept that faith leads to good works. This is fundamentally flawed. It is not the biblical teaching of what faith is. Faith is good works, +, the belief that Jesus is God and died for our sins, + repentance. It is like having a cake. and calling one ingredient the whole of the cake. Faith is not just the belief of Jesus Christ as your savior. Just like flower is not cake. but likewise if you don't have flower you don't have cake. You keep trying to separate the Ingredients, and by doing so you destroy faith. Good works are a fundamental part of faith, you can not separate it. By doing so you no longer have faith. Faith is more than good works, faith is more than the belief in Jesus, Faith is more than repentance. If you have faith you have all, not just one part that lead to another part. With out all the Ingredients you do not have faith. This includes, good works. Do good works play a part in your salvation. The answer is yes in so much as good works are a part of faith, not a result of Faith but a part of faith. Go back to scripture and look at all the references to Faith, put them all together and you get the whole, look at them separate and you see the Ingredients. Again I say Faith does not lead to good works. Good works are a fundamental part of faith which cannot be separated. God Bless, Kansas Dad

There are two parts to this verse, not just one. You must FEAR the Lord and you must HOPE. What does it mean to FEAR the Lord? It means you will obey him. The eye of the Lord is on those who do both, Obey and Believe, YOU MUST DO BOTH. Neither one is sufficient. Faith is both, believing and doing. You cannot separate the two. Just doing is not good enough, and just believing is not good enough. Faith is more than believing, Faith is more than doing. If you believe and continue to sin WITH NO FEAR you do not have faith. You are living a lie; your faith is a lie. This why just believing that Christ died for your sins and is your savior is dangerous. This is not faith. It is only half of the formula. You not only have to believe but you have to fear. Does repentance make sense here? If you fear would you not repent. Faith is bigger than belief, bigger than works, bigger than repentance. It is all of them and you cannot separate the elements with out destroying it. Salvation by belief alone is a lie, salvation by works alone is a lie, and salvation by repentance alone is a lie. Faith is all of this and anything less is a lie. God Bless, Kansas Dad

You have mentioned your concept of limited will before. On first glance it very much seems to be an attempt to justify your theology when it doesn't match with certain verses. A better explanation of this concept is needed to understand how you are interpreting scripture. I think this is a major area of confusion and disagreement. A clear analysis of this may yield better understanding. God Bless, Kansas Dad.

I have the privilege of running one of those hospitals. We are a District hospital, (Owned by the taxpayers of the district) Fortunately this is a small community and there is a strong Christian influence, and demand. I have had a conversation with one of our 2 physicians about him being able to pray with his patients if they ask. He has quickly become one of my mentors. I dread the day when one hateful individual takes a District hospital to court and they force us to take all that is Christian out of the hospital, I would be forced to lose my job I am afraid. This is one we must take to prayer! God Bless, Kansas Dad

You can be very proud of your father he is our hero. Thank him for us. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Actually, it's no coincidence. These three parables show us the saving grace of the Triune God: The Son seeking the lost sheep, the Spirit seeking the lost coin, and the Father receiving the lost son. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The spirit seeking the lost coin. Absolutely, I think many many people don't even know they are lost and therefore have no reference as to what they seek. I think the Holy spirit deffinately seeks them and guides them. Some listen, some don't. Likewise I think the Holy spirit seeks those that have walked away, trying to guide them back, like the youngest son. He already had intimate knowledge of the father he knew what he was missing, and the Holy spirit helped him come back, but not all will listen. The Father receiving the lost son is the Fathers Grace, YES It is because of the Sons sacrifice that we can receive the Fathers Grace, But we also see that the physical manifestation of God, the Son, walked the earth seeking the lost, and again some accepted and some rejected. God Bless Kansas Dad

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on. God Bless, Kansas Dad <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They accepted it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're forgetting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I told you I had rose colored glasses on, but sadly you are correct, so maybe we could write two endings, one where he storms off in a huff and becomes a murdering, lying thief, and one where he storms off but then comes back, kind of like the first kid. Kansas Dad <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The point of the story isn't to have an ending to it. Jesus left it open to the Pharisees, a challenge. Each one subsequently went off and wrote their own ending in their own way. In essence, you're trying to put too much into the context that isn't meant to be there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good point, I agree it is a challange, but not just to the Pharisees, but to all of us Kansas Dad

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on. God Bless, Kansas Dad <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They accepted it so much that they got themselves in a hurry to kill Christ so they could have grace... You're forgetting who put Him on trial. There were some pharisees that accepted Christ later...but the vast majority did not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I told you I had rose colored glasses on, but sadly you are correct, so maybe we could write two endings, one where he storms off in a huff and becomes a murdering, lying thief, and one where he storms off but then comes back, kind of like the first kid. Kansas Dad

Do none of the Pharisees accept Gods Grace? I probably do have pink colored glasses on. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Absolutely! The father never takes it away, but as both children demonstrate, the father will let us reject it, he does not force it on either son. The eldest had the same grace available, but he chose to reject it. God Bless, Kansas Dad <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yet he remained a son. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually we don't know what happens after the Father reaches out to the eldest, and explains what his grace is. the story ends there. So my statement of the eldest rejecting his grace is in error, He definitely questioned it, and then God reached out to him( as I believe the Holy spirit often does) and explained it in a way that the eldest could understand. I would conclude that the story ends with the eldest accepting the Grace that is freely offered. But that is just how I want the story to end.